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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 09:46   #1
Cooling
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Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

Planetarion does not need more features, it needs an axe put through it.

I have been reading with dismay the myriad of suggestions in this forum and elsewhere on ideas to improve Planetarion. Excluding basic gui improvements, these suggestions are variously horrendously overcomplicated, hopelessly overambitious and/or completely unnecessary. Without fail they involve adding something 'new and better' to the game.

This approach to improving the game is fundamentally flawed. Planetarion does not need more features, nor does it need improved features. This may come as a shock to you the reader, but some of the features you want to improve are shit. They are not worth fixing. Planetarion would be a better game without them. Adding more to these so-called 'features' (such as covert ops, population and governments) is utterly futile and won't improve the game one bit. Planetarion needs you to come up with ideas on how to refine, improve, or jettison aspects of the core game. It does not need you to come up with a creative new way to **** up a feature that serves no useful purpose and never has.

The last thing the game needs is more irrelevant bolt on shit. Ultimately these so-called 'features' add little to, and do much to detract from, the core game. The game is overburdened already with so-called features and will not necessarily be improved by adding 'more things'. I offer but a few examples: unnecessary variables (production sliders), crazy restrictions (ingame alliance limits), pointless one-offs (governments), trite minigames (covert ops, scanners), overcomplication (a myriad of construction/research options) and overambitious useless claptrap (population).

Most importantly, the five races and fifty odd ship classes should be cut back to two/three races and fifteen ships at most. You can obtain just as much tactical and strategic depth from that many ships as you can from the current incomprehensible plethora of similar or identical shiptypes. If you want to make the game interesting, add unique ships and a branching tech tree. Force people to specialise and co-operate.

If you think that the general idea of cutting the game back is too radical, it might be worth pausing to think about what Planetarion is. It is a space themed wargame where people co-operate and build fleets in order to attack and capture asteroids from other players. That's it.

You, the players, need to start looking at the features of this game through a more critical lens. Ask: what does this feature add to the core game? Is it easy to understand? Is it fun? Is it necessary?

Right now, Planetarion is completely ****ing incomprehensible for the new player. It needs to be easier, simpler and more intuitive. Simply rewriting the (frankly dreadful) manual and adding 'quests' are band-aid solutions that won't do jack. The developers need to refocus Planetarion on what it does well (space combat/co-operation), not on adding new and irrelevant shit to an already hopelessly overdeveloped game.

I offer but a few suggestions: get back to basics, get rid of the useless features, and let the players make their own fun.

Thoughts?
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 10:08   #2
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

i feel pa should go back to how it used to be. Bringing back 3 tick attack and 6 tick defence would be a huge plus. the current res/con is way better then it used to be. the stats are ok i guess , although scanning for roids is fun and forces everyone to build amps wich would be a nice asset.

just my 2 cent , disagree if you must.
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 12:52   #3
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling View Post
Planetarion does not need more features, it needs an axe put through it.
Putting an axe through everything does not make a interesting, tactical, strategic or newb friendly game.

Quote:
I have been reading with dismay the myriad of suggestions in this forum and elsewhere on ideas to improve Planetarion. Excluding basic gui improvements, these suggestions are variously horrendously overcomplicated, hopelessly overambitious and/or completely unnecessary. Without fail they involve adding something 'new and better' to the game.
Care to comment on my suggestions? As i havent implemented anything new, just refined the current setup.

Quote:
This approach to improving the game is fundamentally flawed. Planetarion does not need more features, nor does it need improved features. This may come as a shock to you the reader, but some of the features you want to improve are shit. They are not worth fixing. Planetarion would be a better game without them. Adding more to these so-called 'features' (such as covert ops, population and governments) is utterly futile and won't improve the game one bit. Planetarion needs you to come up with ideas on how to refine, improve, or jettison aspects of the core game. It does not need you to come up with a creative new way to **** up a feature that serves no useful purpose and never has.
wow there, slow down.. lets analysis this abit.

Some of the features people want to improve are current shit? thats the point, people are offering suggestions to fix them. However, lets go through them..

Covert-Operations, in its essence is a way for a player to attack, damage, annoy another player instantly; It can also be used to gain intelligence. In its current form, its pretty crap as it doesnt offer any real advantages or incentives but that does not mean the whole idea is crap. Players need something to do during ticks or else you create one of the most bland games ever where the only method of play is to send a fleet out every 24hours.

Population, It allows planet development which again ties into something to do between ticks. In its current form, yes its completly crap as it isnt even properly implemented. Again, this does not mean that the whole idea is crap and will always be crap, if its a balance system where the user is given choices on area's to develop and prioritise then its a much better way of doing things.

Governments, I dislike choosing a government at tick 0, but its purpose is to allow players to specialise there planets which means different strategys can be invented and the player can tailor their government to their strategy.

The three things you listed, all have a purpose or at least an intended purpose. The suggestions people give about these area's of the game tend to try to make them fit that purpose as they currently dont.

Quote:
The last thing the game needs is more irrelevant bolt on shit. Ultimately these so-called 'features' add little to, and do much to detract from, the core game. The game is overburdened already with so-called features and will not necessarily be improved by adding 'more things'. I offer but a few examples: unnecessary variables (production sliders), crazy restrictions (ingame alliance limits), pointless one-offs (governments), trite minigames (covert ops, scanners), overcomplication (a myriad of construction/research options) and overambitious useless claptrap (population).
Again, most suggestions arnt adding more irrelevant bolt on shit but instead fixing the current system. Ive listed the purpose of the previous three things you listed but lets go.

Production Sliders? I presume you mean shipwrights in the population section? It is pretty redundant at the moment but could easily be expanded to reward activity and to offer more choice.

Ingame alliance limits came about to stop some alliances recruiting to win. It is up to debate weither the alliance limits helps or hinders the development of the game but i'd argue that most people are happy with the 100 member limit at the moment.

Governments, at the moment are pretty redundant but they do offer a user a choice on how to develop their planet. They should be changed but that doesnt necessaily mean they should be deleted.

Covert-Operations, i discussed above.

Scanners, Scanning is broke in the game at the moment but whats your alternative?

Construction, Research? Most things in the research tree provide a purpose and i'd guess that all of them are currently researched by afew people in the game.

Population, i discussed above.

Quote:
Most importantly, the five races and fifty odd ship classes should be cut back to two/three races and fifteen ships at most. You can obtain just as much tactical and strategic depth from that many ships as you can from the current incomprehensible plethora of similar or identical shiptypes. If you want to make the game interesting, add unique ships and a branching tech tree. Force people to specialise and co-operate.
For once, i agree with you on races but the PA Team will not delete them now they are coded in. Thats why people suggest ways to make races work or at least make the choice be a informed choice for new players.

Quote:
If you think that the general idea of cutting the game back is too radical, it might be worth pausing to think about what Planetarion is. It is a space themed wargame where people co-operate and build fleets in order to attack and capture asteroids from other players. That's it.
Yes, it is too radical. You want the following things deleted:
Population
Construction/Research options
Covert-Operations
Scanning
Governments
Races

What exactly are we left with? A game where players scan for asteroids then attack each other for the next 7weeks with little diversity or strategy. You've suggested making one of the most bland and boring games ever. People like choice, as long as its an informed choice and balanced choice. People like being able to try new things, new strategys and different tactics. People like being able to customise their game to match their playstyle or strategy.
People dont like being forced into one path with one strategy and one outcome.

Quote:
You, the players, need to start looking at the features of this game through a more critical lens. Ask: what does this feature add to the core game? Is it easy to understand? Is it fun? Is it necessary?
Ive explained to you what the features you wish to delete, aim to add to the game. Any suggestions on these forums, while some may be crap, all aim to improve on what the features intend to add to the game.

Quote:
Right now, Planetarion is completely ****ing incomprehensible for the new player. It needs to be easier, simpler and more intuitive. Simply rewriting the (frankly dreadful) manual and adding 'quests' are band-aid solutions that won't do jack. The developers need to refocus Planetarion on what it does well (space combat/co-operation), not on adding new and irrelevant shit to an already hopelessly overdeveloped game.
No, you're simply wrong here. Making the game easier and simpler does not automatically make the game better for the new player. Research was nerfed down to the linear system we have now to make it simplier but it has done nothing to make research easier for the new player. Making the game simpler and easier is also a sure fire way to annoy the existing community and is more than likely going to make the game more boring for alot of players.

Quests are not a band-aid. Most modern browser games now use a quest or tutorial system to take new players through the game. Stop treating new players as stupid, they simply arnt. New players just need to be shown how each thing functions and interacts, in an easy to follow and intuitive way. They do not need you to make the choice for them by deleting their options.

Quote:
I offer but a few suggestions: get back to basics, get rid of the useless features, and let the players make their own fun.
Let the players make their own fun, by taking away their options of playstyle; Doesnt quiet fit together.

Quote:
thoughts?
I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unimatrix View Post
i feel pa should go back to how it used to be. Bringing back 3 tick attack and 6 tick defence would be a huge plus. the current res/con is way better then it used to be. the stats are ok i guess , although scanning for roids is fun and forces everyone to build amps wich would be a nice asset.

just my 2 cent , disagree if you must.
Thats nostalgia talking. The current combat system of one tick attacking is much more easier to play, as it does not require the player to be online at combat. Introducing 3 tick attack, 6 tick defending while has its advantages..It means that players will need to be online during those 3 ticks as defence could be sorted at combat tick 2 and they need to recall.

I really did enjoy scanning for roids as it allows for abit of randomness in the beginning. The main problem was that it forced players into one path at the beginning of the game, as everyone had to go straght for roid-scans.
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 13:45   #4
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

Most "features" in PA were poorly implemented and rushed in. Population, Covert-ops are the main ones.

With more thought to them (as per lights design document), they can become much more useful features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Thats nostalgia talking. The current combat system of one tick attacking is much more easier to play, as it does not require the player to be online at combat. Introducing 3 tick attack, 6 tick defending while has its advantages..It means that players will need to be online during those 3 ticks as defence could be sorted at combat tick 2 and they need to recall.
I feel its harder to attack than it used to be, in the early rounds (pre-pax). It wasnt unheard of to land on a defended planet.

I'm guessing there are too many unknowns now, we used to have military scans, that showed your incoming, and that waves were chance based.

I'm up for changing the wave formula to more chance based, seeing as the each Structure now has its own increased cost base (not the total structure count).
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 13:53   #5
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
I feel its harder to attack than it used to be, in the early rounds (pre-pax). It wasnt unheard of to land on a defended planet.

I'm guessing there are too many unknowns now, we used to have military scans, that showed your incoming, and that waves were chance based.

I'm up for changing the wave formula to more chance based, seeing as the each Structure now has its own increased cost base (not the total structure count).
Thats not really due to the system changing though. People dont land when theirs losses now due to the evolution of the meta-game and the fact that with a much lower user-base its alot more likely you'll be noticed and roided.

I dont really like chance based things, as all you're doing is making people land when they otherwise wouldnt. You need to fix the problem, rather than making it luck based.
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 14:49   #6
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

Alliance limit is 80, by the way.

Pedant mz out.
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 16:16   #7
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

The points the same though whatever the limit is. The PA community has shown time and time again, that it cannot regulate itself in order to ensure a fun round for everyone.

Im wondering, if this round suddenly dropped the alliance tag limit? what would happen? Would people go to ND/NFI to ensure their planet rank? or would the others merge into a bigger tag to take down NFI/Newdawn?
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 16:56   #8
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

Neither. Merging tags is not as trivial as you make it sound, and somehow I doubt NFI or ND would improve if they took in all the ship jumpers. Only ND (almost) hit the limit of 100 last round (and still didn't win, there's a lesson for everyone), and in round 36, no one hit it.
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Unread 15 Sep 2010, 11:33   #9
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Putting an axe through everything does not make a interesting, tactical, strategic or newb friendly game.
I disagree with many of the points you have made, including this one. I will deal with them, as ever, in order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
wow there, slow down.. lets analysis this abit.

Some of the features people want to improve are current shit? thats the point, people are offering suggestions to fix them. However, lets go through them..

Covert-Operations, in its essence is a way for a player to attack, damage, annoy another player instantly; It can also be used to gain intelligence. In its current form, its pretty crap as it doesnt offer any real advantages or incentives but that does not mean the whole idea is crap. Players need something to do during ticks or else you create one of the most bland games ever where the only method of play is to send a fleet out every 24hours.

Population, It allows planet development which again ties into something to do between ticks. In its current form, yes its completly crap as it isnt even properly implemented. Again, this does not mean that the whole idea is crap and will always be crap, if its a balance system where the user is given choices on area's to develop and prioritise then its a much better way of doing things.

Governments, I dislike choosing a government at tick 0, but its purpose is to allow players to specialise there planets which means different strategys can be invented and the player can tailor their government to their strategy.

The three things you listed, all have a purpose or at least an intended purpose. The suggestions people give about these area's of the game tend to try to make them fit that purpose as they currently dont.
You have listed three features that I have described as "irrelevant bolt on shit". I maintain they are, despite your protestations to the contrary. To take your last point first; yes they may have a purpose, but they are poorly implemented (as you accept) and are unlikely to be improved upon to any great extent. At the same time, these so-called features add a great deal of unnecessary complexity to the game, offer little or nothing by way of strategic depth to the game, and serve no useful purpose. Let's look at a few:

Covert Operations is a feature that you somewhat charitably suggest is "pretty crap". Yes it is a way to attack, damage and annoy another player instantly. But do other players really want to be annoyed? No. Is that fun? No. Do they want to be annoyed by what are, essentially random, somewhat trivial, and relatively easily immunisable 'attacks'? No. Are they really attacks at all? No. Do they contribute to the overall metagame of attacking other players for asteroids? No. Covert Operations is nothing more than a poorly implemented, non-integrated, farcical minigame. It's not worth improving. It doesn't add anything and never will add anything to the game. If players wanted something to do between ticks, they'd be better off playing Solitare.

Population, I agree, is "crap" and "not properly implemented". But let's imagine some magical fairy land where it is implemented. What would it add? Something to do between ticks? Develop my planet? Well that's great, but this game isn't sim planet or farmville. It's a war game. Wars are conducted by co-operative alliances of players, who control fleets of ships. Adding a ridiculous planetary development / population system is bound up in this retarded desire to add more shit for no reason at all. Players are not crying out for such a pointless add on. Nor are new players leaving in droves because the population feature isn't properly implemented. Let's face it, it never was implemented, it doesn't need to be implemented; stop flogging a dead horse.

Governments other than being an artificial, one-off, locked in detriment / reward system, add very little in the way of strategic depth to the game. People would get on just fine specialising their fleet without the government system. It's a choice made once in a round, it can't be changed, and has little, if any effect on a players overall enjoyment of the game. Players barely think about it after they've chosen it, and i'll bet you a thousand clams that nobody has ever said "**** it was great fun playing democracy this round".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Again, most suggestions arnt adding more irrelevant bolt on shit but instead fixing the current system. Ive listed the purpose of the previous three things you listed but lets go.
Most suggestions do involve adding more pointless irrelevant bolt on shit. Piecemeal fixes to poorly implemented, half baked, and non-integrated features do not contribute to the game. They only **** it up further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Production Sliders? I presume you mean shipwrights in the population section? It is pretty redundant at the moment but could easily be expanded to reward activity and to offer more choice.

Ingame alliance limits came about to stop some alliances recruiting to win. It is up to debate weither the alliance limits helps or hinders the development of the game but i'd argue that most people are happy with the 100 member limit at the moment.

Scanners, Scanning is broke in the game at the moment but whats your alternative?

Construction, Research? Most things in the research tree provide a purpose and i'd guess that all of them are currently researched by afew people in the game.

For once, i agree with you on races but the PA Team will not delete them now they are coded in. Thats why people suggest ways to make races work or at least make the choice be a informed choice for new players.
Production Sliders Why on earth should they be kept? Why not just get rid of it and make the game easier to understand? What does it add at present? Random production speed, only rarely, if ever, useful when under attack. What a fantastic feature. The game would die on its arse if we didn't have that one.

Ingame Alliance Limits aren't objected to because, as Mz has already explained, it has **** all effect given the current playerbase size. I don't really think its something that has any relevance to the current game. If it is an irrelevant limit, why on earth would you keep it?

Scanning has been broken for a long time. I would suggest removing amps and distorters. Make the scan tech tree shorter or remove it altogether. Allow new players to play the game without having to wait 400+ ticks to get scans of their own. Stop penalising new players needlessly for not joining an alliance to get access to a scanner. They'll probably become disillusioned with losing their whole fleet landing blind on a planet long before ever doing so. I've never understood the purpose behind restricting such a fundamental component of the game.

Research needs a branching tech tree, perhaps with unique bonuses or differing shiptypes. You could, if you so choose, amalgamate the government system, races, and the tech tree into one concept. That would be a lot more interesting and fun than the current system of linear research options for completely unrelated gameplay mechanics (covops, scans, ships, asteroids).

Races I am glad you agree with me, because if there is one thing I would change about the current game, above all the other things, it would be the elimination of races. Contrary to your assertion, there is no reason why they can't be coded out or removed entirely. The game didn't need to be completely overhauled when they made the completely retarded decision to introduce the Etradies race.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post

What exactly are we left with? A game where players scan for asteroids then attack each other for the next 7weeks with little diversity or strategy. You've suggested making one of the most bland and boring games ever. People like choice, as long as its an informed choice and balanced choice. People like being able to try new things, new strategys and different tactics. People like being able to customise their game to match their playstyle or strategy.
People dont like being forced into one path with one strategy and one outcome.
The choices players are offered by the game mechanics you have listed are either completely illusory or totally unnecessary. People don't like choice for the sake of choice. More choices does not lead to more fun. The fun people derive from planetarion doesn't come from the myriad of ****ing incomprehensible choices the game offers. It comes from the co-operative metagame that the fundamental game mechanic delivers. What I have endeavoured to point out are the bland, boring, pointless, and downright retarded aspects of this game.

Planetarion doesn't need to be a dozen games in one; it doesn't need ****ed up features that don't add anything. It just needs to deliver a simple, enjoyable, interesting and fun game. That game involves attacking players to steal their asteroids. Suggest some features that improve upon, and add a degree of choice in that part of the game. It won't be bland, and it won't be boring, because if you've played this game for any length of time, you'll know that most of the fun is derived from interacting with other people and attacking or defending people with the fleet you have built.

I don't think the game needs a plethora of other irrelevant shit that doesn't relate in any way to the core game. I've listed a few examples. I am sure there are many more. But you won't fix a broken game by ****ing it up further with an endless array of pointless crap and peicemeal fixes to broken features that are totally without redemption and are only persisted with 'because they are there' in the vain hope that (when hell freezes over) this game gets a halfway competent developer and a true design direction.
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Unread 15 Sep 2010, 13:42   #10
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

I partly agree with you, Cooling, and partly I don't. Because replying "I agree" to half of what you said is boring, here's the things I disagree with you on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling View Post
Population, I agree, is "crap" and "not properly implemented". But let's imagine some magical fairy land where it is implemented. What would it add? Something to do between ticks? Develop my planet? Well that's great, but this game isn't sim planet or farmville. It's a war game. Wars are conducted by co-operative alliances of players, who control fleets of ships. Adding a ridiculous planetary development / population system is bound up in this retarded desire to add more shit for no reason at all. Players are not crying out for such a pointless add on. Nor are new players leaving in droves because the population feature isn't properly implemented. Let's face it, it never was implemented, it doesn't need to be implemented; stop flogging a dead horse.
First of all, I don't agree population is "something to do between ticks" any more than any of the things players can do in Planetarion, be it launching fleets, producing ships, enqueueing a structure or posting on the galaxy forums. It's the wrong approach to take precisely because it makes population indistinguishable to all the features of PA.

Secondly, I think the idea of specializing to pursue a certain strategy (on a planet level) is something PA needs to hold onto, because it keeps the game interesting to people for more than a few rounds of doing the same thing. I may be slightly biased here, because I enjoy doing new things more than anything in PA, but variation is the spice of life. Reducing PA to a game of "everyone pursuing the same strategy because that's the best one" is a bad idea, regardless of how deep you make the alliance level metagame.

Especially in the early stages of the round (a limit imposed by the short tech tree, more on this later), population plays a significant role in making your planet do what you want it to do. While what you say about governments can be said of population as well (that no one's round is ever ruined by their population assignment), population gives people the chance to pursue unorthodox strategies. Thus, while population and governments cannot ruin someone's playing experience, they can improve on it.

Beyond setting more sane defaults on population (25/50/25/0/0), I see absolutely no reason why we would remove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling View Post
Production Sliders Why on earth should they be kept? Why not just get rid of it and make the game easier to understand? What does it add at present? Random production speed, only rarely, if ever, useful when under attack. What a fantastic feature. The game would die on its arse if we didn't have that one.
I don't know what this is. What are "production sliders"? Is it just the subfeature of population that allows you to increase your production speed by up to 60 percentage points? Because if so, I don't see why it deserves a discussion of its own.

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Originally Posted by Cooling View Post
Scanning has been broken for a long time. I would suggest removing amps and distorters. Make the scan tech tree shorter or remove it altogether. Allow new players to play the game without having to wait 400+ ticks to get scans of their own. Stop penalising new players needlessly for not joining an alliance to get access to a scanner. They'll probably become disillusioned with losing their whole fleet landing blind on a planet long before ever doing so. I've never understood the purpose behind restricting such a fundamental component of the game.
Scanning is broken. No doubt about it. All of the useful, no, required scans are put at the end of the tree, making access to dedicated scanners an absolute requirement to not only playing PA well, but playing it in any meaningful sense of the word at all.

This is wrong.

I have no particular objection to allowing people to specialize within alliances, but PA should always be playable solo. Distorters and amplifiers play a critical role in making the former aspect happen and as such I am very much opposed to removing them: the problem does not lie with dists and amps, but with the research tree.

As per Light's design document and posts I've made on the subject, the scanning tech tree should focus on two things:
1) Allowing people to quickly and easily (two similar but distinct properties) gain access to the scans they need to attack effectively.
2) Preserving the level of cooperation in alliances by preserving the role of dedicated scanners.
3) Giving people the option to play a distorter planet.

Keeping these requirements in mind, the scanning tree could look something like this:

1. Cloak scan (20% imprecision, a unit scan that shows cloaked ships or at least the class of cloaked ships)
2. Improved Landing scan (like a JGP, except can only be done on a planet you are attacking, with an eta of 4 or below)
3. Planet scan (no change)
4. Development scan (no change)
5. News scan (no change)
6. Incoming scan (no change, could be put further back in the tree for the huge impact they have)
7. Jumpgate probe (no change, can be done on any planet)
8. Advanced unit scan (no change, perfect precision)

Requirement 1 is met because this tree should make it possible to research the first 2 scans while in protection. A case can be made for this to be included in the tutorial quest line (see Light's document). Requirement 2 is met because the ability of doing perfect scans on arbitrary coordinates with high amps is required for alliances to engage in fleetcatches (core feature of PA, as you will undoubtedly agree) and to counter distorter play. Requirement 3 is met because I do not remove dists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling View Post
Research needs a branching tech tree, perhaps with unique bonuses or differing shiptypes. You could, if you so choose, amalgamate the government system, races, and the tech tree into one concept. That would be a lot more interesting and fun than the current system of linear research options for completely unrelated gameplay mechanics (covops, scans, ships, asteroids).
I support changing the tech tree (or at least implementing a more easily modifiable tech tree, since it's currently hardcoded (and a million nerds cried out and were silenced)).

However, I've come to dislike the idea of a heavily branched and interlinked tech tree. Here, just like when I discussed population, the goal should be enabling choice. Forcing people to jump through hoops just to pursue the research path they desire because of the way you've set up the research tree is a bad thing. If I have to get a certain level of research in hulls before I can get hypergate, then I can no longer rush eta research.

Additionally, a branced and interlinked tree gets hopelessly complicated very quickly. One of the issues is that for a tree of sufficient size to last more than 400 ticks (unlike the one we currently have), it invariably ends up as too big to either fit on one reasonably sized display (made all the more pressing because of the emergence of smart phones) or into the short-term memory of any non-Einsteinian individual. Linear, unbranched and uninterlinked research trees are easy to understand (because easy to segment) and can be made just as deep as the other kind.

I, personally, am in favour of a Master of Orion type tech tree with 4 or 5 research lines without any interlinks whatsoever. The researches available to me are all researches below my technology level. My tech level in a certain line is determined by taking the tech level of my highest completed research in that line and adding the number of other researches I've done in that line. Completing a level 34 research in a line while I've done 9 other researches in that line gives me a tech level of 42. All researches in that line at tech level 42 or lower would be available to me.

This system preserves choice, because if a line contains both hull research and eta research (for example), I can choose to skip the hull research and increase my tech level solely through eta research. Simultaneously, it allows balancing, because it's easy to move a research up or down a few tech levels. And finally, it's easy to understand at a glance, because it's linear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling View Post
Races (...) Contrary to your assertion, there is no reason why they can't be coded out or removed entirely.
When was the last time a feature of PA was removed?
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Unread 15 Sep 2010, 13:42   #11
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling View Post
Stuff..
I think a case in point is the latest C&C4 game.

It removes all the base building elements, and gives you units almost instantly. I for one (and with the majority of the C&C community), think this was one step to far.

The idea of reducing a game to its core elements, is ok, but it takes less time to get bored with it.

Also this game is played over months, not hours.

"Most suggestions do involve adding more pointless irrelevant bolt on shit. Piecemeal fixes to poorly implemented, half baked, and non-integrated features do not contribute to the game. They only **** it up further."

Most of the "crap" thats been added, while poorly implemented, is to blame directly at the development side and not the design side. Issues with funding have been a problem since the beginning.

Population:
Yes sliders are pointless, but that was the easy way to implement. Lights idea for the population to be the actual sliders is pretty good.

Governments:
Well they are crap! They should be replaced with advisors (they motivate the workers), who can be hired and fired at will. However yet again advisors with only added bonuses, does not really add to the game. Perhaps a more diverse system is needed, with positives/negatives as well.

Scanning:
This needs to go back to random chance. For all new non-allied player to stand a chance against 3/4 round of noob bashing, they need to be able to try and help themselves ( I made a thread on this a while back).

I've disagreed with alliance scanners ever since the formula was changed to all or nothing.

Lights suggestion of Basic Scans and Advanced Scans would only work if formula was changed.

Basic scans are pretty easy to get through, while advanced scans take more attempts (costing more resource).

Research:
While simple to understand, lacks any kind of depth, and can completed between 400-500 ticks.

Races:
Should be reduced, with the option to research Extra types (emp.steal.cloak)
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Unread 15 Sep 2010, 14:09   #12
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
As per Light's design document and posts I've made on the subject, the scanning tech tree should focus on two things:

...

Requirement 1 is met because this tree should make it possible to research the first 2 scans while in protection. A case can be made for this to be included in the tutorial quest line (see Light's document). Requirement 2 is met because the ability of doing perfect scans on arbitrary coordinates with high amps is required for alliances to engage in fleetcatches (core feature of PA, as you will undoubtedly agree) and to counter distorter play. Requirement 3 is met because I do not remove dists.
New planets do not join alliances at the start, they may take up to a week to even think about an alliance (if ever). This leads to them not having access to an alliance scanner. Making dists a game stopper.

Dists are only there to fake attacks, yes its makes a nice strategy to have lots of dists, but I think its not "fun" for the person who's getting attacked. With the introduction of single structure cost increase, its easier to gain dists. It should make it harder to scan, not impossible.
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Unread 15 Sep 2010, 14:14   #13
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

People build dists to do fake attacks. People build amps to prevent people from fake attacking them. I do not see the problem.
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Unread 15 Sep 2010, 17:17   #14
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
People build dists to do fake attacks. People build amps to prevent people from fake attacking them. I do not see the problem.
Thats ok for People starting at the same tick.

But people starting later than another person (that includes new players) is a problem.

Let the players have a chance.

I'm bringing up an old idea I had, this includes the LDD (Lights Design Document):

Each scan has a "difficulty modifier" which attaches to the chance formula.



Formula:
Percentage = Amps / Dists

ScanOffset = (DiffMod - (DiffMod * Percentage)) + 0.5

ScanChance = ( 0.5 / ScanOffSet ) * 100

Scans
"Difficulty Modifier" in brackets

BASIC PLANET SCAN (1)
BASIC DEVELOPMENT SCAN (1)
BASIC UNIT SCAN (1)
BASIC JUMP GATE PROBE (1)
BASIC INCOMING SCAN (2)

ADVANCED PLANET SCAN (3)
ADVANCED DEVELOPMENT SCAN (3)
ADVANCED UNIT SCAN (4)
ADVANCED JUMP GATE PROBE (5)
ADVANCED INCOMING SCAN (6)

Example 1

Amps = 10, Dists = 20

Basic Planet Scan:
ScanChance = 50%

Basic Incoming Scan:
ScanChance = 33%

Advanced Planet Scan:
ScanChance = 25%

Advanced Unit Scan:
ScanChance = 20%

Advanced Incoming Scan:
ScanChance = 14%

Example 2

Amps = 20, Dists = 20

All scans 100%


Summary

This is basically increasing the cost of scanning someone, while actually having a chance to scan someone.

Also was thinking that, on a failed scan, you get a message on how likely you are to get through.

e.g.

0-25% chance.
Your ?? scan was blocked, but this planet has high scanning protection.

26-49% chance.
Your ?? scan was blocked, but this planet has low to medium scanning protection.

50-74% chance.
Your ?? scan was blocked, but this planet has medium to high scanning protection.

75-100% chance.
Your ?? scan was blocked, but this planet has Low scanning protection.
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Unread 15 Sep 2010, 17:28   #15
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

The game needs reworking from the ground up.

Planetarion really needs to be fun for the solo player, and something which becomes even better in alliances. At the moment it seems to be something where solo play isn't recommended, forcing you to join an alliance unless you want to get crushed quickly.

Some of the features which have been added over the years are reasonable - but part of the problem is the fact that they're available to players at the start of the game, showing unnecessary complexity the moment you sign up for an account.

The features of the game need to be released over the duration of your account, something which this game utterly fails at. If you played an MMORPG and had 20-30 spells on a character the first time you login, you'd be utterly confused on what to do. This is what Planetarion is like. Instead of reworking the game and trying to slowly introduce a player, we've ended up with a bunch of quests intending to guide them through the entire mess.

Also we've got planets which are out of protection within 24 hours along with a 7 week round. Is this a sufficient amount of time to guide anyone through the complex aspects of the game (like combat)? I seriously doubt it. I know people want a quick start to the round, but there are consequences to it.

Every aspect of the game needs to be looked at carefully. It often feels like various things about the game have been left in simply because they've been there for many rounds.
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Unread 15 Sep 2010, 17:38   #16
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
Thats ok for People starting at the same tick.

But people starting later than another person (that includes new players) is a problem.
It's not particularly hard to offset that.

As for the rest of your post, any scan system that does not allow for 100% protection against scans kills disting. Even the current landing scan (even as handicapped as it is) is a big problem.
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Unread 15 Sep 2010, 20:08   #17
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

go play xxx-clone if you demand the axe!

PA needs new improved features if it wants to be played by masses again or for that matter stand the test of time
It needs micromanagement to offer a single player experience
what it doesnt need is 50 ships each race i agree, it rather needs diversity in what you can do with your planet

i know there is many around who want the "old" PA back, be it scanning for roids, 3 tick attacks or cluster eta reduction
myself even is in favour of some of those

BUT

its the wrong direction , we arent in the 90´s or 00`s anymore, ppl want gfx, depth and something you can achieve (apart from #1 planet, #1 gal and #1 alliance)
they want to be part of something

atm 50% of the active players are fighting for those goals (some more, some less) while the other 50% (beeing it inactives or NEW players) provide their farms with nothing to gain apart from "ohh i jumped 30 ranks with that attack!!! - im now 367th!"

why is a war between HEX and horde unseen for most of the universe ?
why is there no ranking inside of an alliance, where xyz defends his mates 50 times a round, while abc is idling his ass off?
why is a war just about asteroids ? and not about dominating a planet, a galaxy, a cluster?
where is a global market in PA ? why is there only 3 ressources and why does every planet have em ? why cant we establish trade-routes, control planets full of ressource xy? therefore fight wars for those ressources, for control?
why is there only the war path to build up your planet ? wouldnt someone want to be a pirate instead, a merchant? a sientist, a poltician?

games nowadays get more realistic with every feature they implement, beeing in tactical depth (military or economic) or beeing it uber realistic Full-HD gfx

i think we all agree on PA not beeing a gfx driven game, but where the hell is our economic and military depth then ?

my 5 cents
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Unread 19 Sep 2010, 17:57   #18
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

To be honest I love messing with covert ops, I like the fact that when someone much bigger takes my roids I can get some 'payback' by blowing up some of their roids or ships. Taking out structures is also great. This round there was a juicy target that had more amps than I could block so he always knew how to defend my attacks. I cov - op'd several times and took out a pile of his amps and hey presto he couldn't scan me any more. I was able to land a few good attacks by using fake fleets. That is a strategy that wouldn't have been available to me if you remove covert op's. Sure they can be a little petty, but it can be fun at times. Perhaps changing them slightly to reflect the races - so maybe Zik cov - op's can steal a few ships while Ter / Xan blow them up and Cat simply stun them for a few rounds (performed just before an attack lands this can make a slight difference). Perhaps only Cat's get the emp op that destroys amps / dist's while the rest get Havoc, where the structures destroyed are chosen at random (Cat's get those too).

As for the sliders, I used them a lot to start off with. As my planet built up, I changed my priorities from research and mining, to a bit more on construction. As my research got to the point where I wasn't bothered about what was left to research I changed more towards mining, construction and shipwrights, now my priorities are - and have been for a while - on mining, shipwrights and security. That's how I played this round - slowly and steadily, shifting my focus to reflect where I was in the game. Again I would not like this option to be removed.

Personally I think that adding more scans at the beginning of the scan tree would just mean that it takes longer to get to the end of it where the really useful ones are.

Being a long time Zik player I am completely against the idea of the steal ships getting destroyed when they steal an enemy ship. With the slowest initiative of all attack ships this means that the Ziks get shot up by the enemy fleet and then what ever is left gets blown up when they return fire. Either let Zik ships stay alive more - perhaps drop the steal/die rate to 75% from 100% or let them fire earlier in the combats at comparable initiatives to the Ter ships. This allows the Cat and Xan to keep their faster firing advantage. That said emp seems way over powered this round, I get my ass stunned by fleets half my size, I have found myself specifically sending out fleets with the aim of steeling Cat and ETD ships rather than going for the roids as their ships are just so effective!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper View Post
The game needs reworking from the ground up.

Planetarion really needs to be fun for the solo player, and something which becomes even better in alliances. At the moment it seems to be something where solo play isn't recommended, forcing you to join an alliance unless you want to get crushed quickly.
This I think is a really overlooked and important statement. There are a decent number of long time players that are in alliances and they are the bedrock of the game. BUT it is the new players who are the lifeblood of the game will be the bedrock of the game in the future. If new players come along and find that they cannot really play because every time they get some small success someone else comes along and destroys / steals it - They wont hang around. Without engaging new players and keeping their interest the game will slowly grind down and will end up being a handful of grizzled veterans sitting around saying things like 'remember 10 years ago when we used to play PA? Man those were the days!".

P.S. The war between Hex and the Horde was fun Morpheus!

Last edited by Chulain; 19 Sep 2010 at 18:04.
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Unread 6 Oct 2010, 23:33   #19
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

Can I remind everyone that PA has been epically shit since approximately R8?

Why are people still holding on to the expectation that whichever management team is in place is actually going to care that much about the 200 people still playing? It's barely even a notable portfolio piece for them.
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Unread 7 Oct 2010, 10:07   #20
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I partly agree with you, Cooling, and partly I don't. Because replying "I agree" to half of what you said is boring, here's the things I disagree with you on.


First of all, I don't agree population is "something to do between ticks" any more than any of the things players can do in Planetarion, be it launching fleets, producing ships, enqueueing a structure or posting on the galaxy forums. It's the wrong approach to take precisely because it makes population indistinguishable to all the features of PA.

Secondly, I think the idea of specializing to pursue a certain strategy (on a planet level) is something PA needs to hold onto, because it keeps the game interesting to people for more than a few rounds of doing the same thing. I may be slightly biased here, because I enjoy doing new things more than anything in PA, but variation is the spice of life. Reducing PA to a game of "everyone pursuing the same strategy because that's the best one" is a bad idea, regardless of how deep you make the alliance level metagame.

Especially in the early stages of the round (a limit imposed by the short tech tree, more on this later), population plays a significant role in making your planet do what you want it to do. While what you say about governments can be said of population as well (that no one's round is ever ruined by their population assignment), population gives people the chance to pursue unorthodox strategies. Thus, while population and governments cannot ruin someone's playing experience, they can improve on it.

Beyond setting more sane defaults on population (25/50/25/0/0), I see absolutely no reason why we would remove it.
I don't see population as a useful or interesting feature of the game. First, I think it is simply something included in the game to adjust between ticks. It's an utterly uninteresting, trivial and pointless thing to do between ticks, and I'm ****ed if I know why its there. Players would be better off spending that time shoving steel rods up their own arses. I'm sure some of them do. It is indistinguishable from any of the other aspects of the game; its something you adjust once in a blue for little or no discernible advantage. It's never going to be more than that, it's just a shit half baked 'feature' that some retarded jackass came up with ages ago because 'it might be interesting'. It's not interesting, it never has been interesting, it never will be interesting. The wrong approach is to hold on like grim death to a half implemented, unnecessary and completely crap feature in the vain hope that in some future fantasy world, some ****ed up loon is going to 'improve it' in some ill defined fashion.

Secondly, I agree that we should preserve some strategy of specialization in the game. I like the idea of people having to specialize to compete, and I prefer game concepts that force people to make trade offs. But population is never going to add anything meaningful to this goal. It's plainly not a feature that allows you to do anything more than lock in changes at an extremely abstract and broad level. It can't possibly contribute in any meaningful way to your overall strategy for the round, it doesn't force you to make 'hard' or 'difficult' choices, and it doesn't let you pursue unique and interesting strategies at all. You seem to think it is worth preserving a feature that embodies a lot of virtues that it doesn't and can't possibly live up to. I think that's the wrong approach. I suggest you look for a better means of pursuing unorthodox and/or specialized strategies. Don't cling to half arsed quasi features that contribute jack all to the metagame.

Quote:
Scanning is broken. No doubt about it. All of the useful, no, required scans are put at the end of the tree, making access to dedicated scanners an absolute requirement to not only playing PA well, but playing it in any meaningful sense of the word at all.

This is wrong.
Agreed. It's ****ing retarded.

I'm not going to comment on your particular idea regarding scanners. I'd hasten to add that I see the whole concept of dedicated scanners as an ill considered and retrograde aspect of the game. I don't think the virtue of encouraging alliance cooperation should be elevated above the ability for every player to play the game solo without penalty within the core game. Scanning is one zone of the game that is so fundamental to the player experience that I think it should be equal across the board. Alliances can work on providing defence, attacks, politics, social activities and wars. Not scans. I suspect the specifics of your proposal mean you're looking to achieve the middle ground, but this is an area that I disagree on. I'd also prefer that distorters reduced the accuracy of scans (within a 10-15% band, with perhaps 100% accurate scans late round). I don't like the idea of distorters being a 1:1 ratio with amps. Others might disagree.

Quote:

I support changing the tech tree (or at least implementing a more easily modifiable tech tree, since it's currently hardcoded (and a million nerds cried out and were silenced)).

However, I've come to dislike the idea of a heavily branched and interlinked tech tree. Here, just like when I discussed population, the goal should be enabling choice. Forcing people to jump through hoops just to pursue the research path they desire because of the way you've set up the research tree is a bad thing. If I have to get a certain level of research in hulls before I can get hypergate, then I can no longer rush eta research.

Additionally, a branced and interlinked tree gets hopelessly complicated very quickly. One of the issues is that for a tree of sufficient size to last more than 400 ticks (unlike the one we currently have), it invariably ends up as too big to either fit on one reasonably sized display (made all the more pressing because of the emergence of smart phones) or into the short-term memory of any non-Einsteinian individual. Linear, unbranched and uninterlinked research trees are easy to understand (because easy to segment) and can be made just as deep as the other kind.
I agree that a heavily branched and interlinked tech tree would be horrendously shit. I think linear tech trees sound fine, but I would prefer to see something along the lines of a tech tree that forces players to choose, in an arbitrary way, between two or three equally beneficial but distinct choices at every level of a linear path. Something that at least forces players to make hard decisions in order to specialize based on an overall strategy. While this might be difficult to balance (hence please cut down the number of ships drastically), it would add a great deal more strategic depth.


Quote:
When was the last time a feature of PA was removed?
Never, sadly. I hope the Jagex people take a damned hard look at several of them if they ever get around to fixing this utterly broken game.
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Unread 7 Oct 2010, 21:03   #21
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

It's true, there is to many features to this game and cutting some of them out may be of benefit. But i think it would be better to give people a choice to specilise in a specific way.

For example you may not be able to keep launching fleets and attacking all the time, so you could specilise in convert ops which allows you to steal roids and do damage to people. The specilsation would have it's benefits as well as costs. For example if you wanted the more powerfull convert ops you wouldent be able to have the lowest ETA in the game.

There should also be some way to "reset" your choices at a cost be that resources or roids so if you suddenly wanted to start attacking you could change specilisation but each change would cost more and would take so many ticks before u could reset it.

As for the scans for the solo player, why not allow them to buy the scans on a "market place" where scanners can make money to grow this also adds benefits to being a scanner

I've also played Zik this round and i must say i'm more than dissapointed. For every ship i capture i loose one for the same value and my fleet must first take the onslaught from who i'm attacking. This is also asuming they havent selected "Run and Hide" I think this should be changed so more ships survive but because Zik's can steal ships they shouldnt have any pod class ships. In order to cap pods u need to steal someone elses pod type ships.
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Unread 7 Oct 2010, 21:16   #22
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

please forgive a newbs ignorance but how is scanning broken? I've seen it mentioned a few times but not understood why
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Unread 7 Oct 2010, 22:19   #23
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

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please forgive a newbs ignorance but how is scanning broken? I've seen it mentioned a few times but not understood why
You cannot play the game without having access to scans. You need to know what ships a planet has in order to attack them and you need to know what ships a planet has in order to defend there attacks. Active alliances have got around this problem by having someone (usually more than 1 though) in there alliance be a dedicated scans and provide the scans for them. New players and casual players dont have the luxury of this though, so they essentially cant play the game.
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Unread 8 Oct 2010, 01:05   #24
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

I'm in agreement with Cooling, the game needs to be cut down quite considerably and at the very least, the existing features simplified. As it stands a planet is a complete ballache to set up and that's not newbie friendly at all, never mind understanding how the game works from a point of zero.

I think there's a strong argument to go back to four races at least, simply because it's easier to make stats more balanced and combat simpler. The tech tree is currently way too fast, in that it doesn't force people to make choices about how they run their planet.

At the moment we have a complex system where you can do everything at once relative to the overall length of the game. This is just letting everyone have their cake and eat it and have all the advantages, which in turn makes them worthless. Instead you should slow things down, make things simpler to understand but a lot more difficult to achieve and let people decide what holes they want open for exploitation.

The greatest illustration is in fleet choices and time travel. In the past, a slowed down tech tree would have the effect that by going for say, fast travel time would mean you were making a massive sacrifice in terms of having a balanced fleet. This meant you had to be confident in your ability to either fly under the radar or consistently pick up roids to make up for your losses. On the flip side, going for a balanced fleet by going for BS, meant you had to be extremely choosy about your targets to actually get anywhere and accept that against lower class ships, you were going to be less of an asset to your alliance for FI class defence. Simplifying the game invites situations like this.

Simplifying the game like this would have a greater effect than population and government on making people determine their strategy. We can actually create depth in the game by taking unnecessary things away and giving players real dilemmas. Useful features are concepts such as covert ops that work entirely outside of combat. Covops is such an example, but in my mind it has much in common with scanning. I'd support new features if they weren't combat related, but it seems that the 'pure' element of planetarion needs taking a hatchet to it.

Longer rounds would also make it more interesting as players would be more encouraged to play for the long term rather than play it safe when attacking or defending. The fact we have rounds that are only just over 1,000 ticks is very very bad. They should be 2,000 ticks and 1,500 at the very least. While this helps newbies a lot, it also makes sense at the highest level, because then it requires stamina and a greater sense of discipline and focus to win.

To make planetarion good, it must be about the long term and a game that is simple to understand and play but one that makes people think about strategy given the options available.
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Unread 8 Oct 2010, 06:35   #25
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

wow, i never thought of that, but i would approve making game "slower" with my two hands!!! slower as the research/con stuff.. atm the startup/upgrade bonuses totally screw this up and its so dull, again activity is not as much rewarded as it should (hi Light, i know u dont like activity to be rewarded and want every noob to be able to win it but meh)..

however im not so sure about longer rounds, the way planetarion rounds are played atm, it could be a very very dull time from pt 600 to 2000 :S
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Unread 8 Oct 2010, 08:52   #26
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

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You cannot play the game without having access to scans. You need to know what ships a planet has in order to attack them and you need to know what ships a planet has in order to defend there attacks. Active alliances have got around this problem by having someone (usually more than 1 though) in there alliance be a dedicated scans and provide the scans for them. New players and casual players dont have the luxury of this though, so they essentially cant play the game.
i'm a some-what casual player myself and I can see your point, I never thought about it that way, I just accepted that that was the way of things.
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Unread 8 Oct 2010, 11:52   #27
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

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wow, i never thought of that, but i would approve making game "slower" with my two hands!!! slower as the research/con stuff.. atm the startup/upgrade bonuses totally screw this up and its so dull, again activity is not as much rewarded as it should (hi Light, i know u dont like activity to be rewarded and want every noob to be able to win it but meh)..

however im not so sure about longer rounds, the way planetarion rounds are played atm, it could be a very very dull time from pt 600 to 2000 :S
There currently isnt any features in Planetarion which reward pure activity. The only features in the game reward people who come online for 1-2 ticks a night to send defence and 1-2 in the evening to claim a target. Im all for rewarding activity, infact you'll see in my design document i made population reward pure activty).

Im not for rewarding a timezone someone lives in but im all for rewarding activity.
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Unread 27 Oct 2010, 23:04   #28
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Re: Planetarion - Put an Axe through it

agreeing with the first and second poster. this round i decided to give pa a try again. after R10 i quit because i thought the new game was insanely crap. now i found out that it's possible to ruin things even more.

i'm not sure what the intention of creators is with covert ops/population/economic settings/loads of constructions, but it surely doesn't add any extra dimension to the game. it all just became unnecessery complex. in fact, i still don't even know what i'm supposed to play for: value or score. why is value/score even there? and what the hell does xp contribute to?

what i used to like about this game was the real-time aspect: ie trying to launch as close as possible to the tick, setting the alarm because you need to recall a fleet or oversleeping for it etc. this is all gone now. i can preset pretty much everything and even put a C/R in queue. how is this rewarding activity?

also (and i realise this is much less important), i miss the good old red/green lights when having incomings. what i see now is a bold/underlined piece of text, somewhere in the middle of nowhere on my screen.

in conclusion, i think the codemonkeys that somewhere in the process were appointed as replacement of the old crew, coded all the fun out of the game with their intense desire to control everything.

what you want is a basic, simplistic game that puts all tactics 'outside' of it, offering a maximum amount of possibilities for people to become creative in order to win. for this reason, you don't want to control alliances ingame, for example.

so far my rant. i don't really care what you do with it because to be honest i'm pretty sure i won't try another round ever again. eagerly waiting for spinner's new game.
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