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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 07:11   #51
Buddah
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

mhs are way to strict, iirc players under 18 "needs parent consistency"(however the word is spelled) to play. And lets face it those that play pa are older now and dont need "protection" from the internet. r/p that are outright offensive i can understand, but if its 1 mh opinion that a r/p is borderline, dont change it/close. Same with galbanners and names, if its not very offensive dont make a case out of it. kid pages have worse stuff than some of the stuff you get warning for.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 07:24   #52
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
- Ppl claim they have never seen a MH apologize.

That might be, because 99% of the cases is being spoken about with the player in question only. It would be silly to apologize in public for every time you made a wrong decision: 'I apologize for falsely accusiong <some_nick> of breaking the eula on a case you know all know nothing about and have nothing to do with.'.
That's wrong. If a MH closes a planet for 24 hours or whatever, that planet will not be able to defend or attack. The direct consequence is that his alliance and galaxy will be affected in one way or another - so the MH that closed him should apologize to them also. Therefore a public apology is in order.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 09:13   #53
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Thats basically the only commenti have whenever the subject of MH's come up. In this case, its simply "why close someone for an offensive name? especially a borderline offensive name? when you have the option to rename them and let them carry on playing?".

It does not matter weither you think the name is offensive or not. Its a case of should planets still be getting closed for offensive names and other trivial things like this? when the MH's have the tools to simply rename the planet.

Ive got no real problem with what the MH's find offensive, as its all subjective. Its a huge problem when they ALWAYS choose to close the planet rather than rename it. In cases like this, they should of renamed it to something neutral than told the planet in question to come into #multihunters if they'd like to choose a different name than the ones the MH picked (note as well, he should not be forced to go to #multihunters simply to get a ego-trip warning).
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 09:36   #54
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post

- Ppl are disturbed by the fact multihunters refuse to discuss cases in public.

This has three reasons: 1) players are entitled to/may want privacy, so discussing cases in public is a no because of that, and 2) the second reason is that if MH would be required to discuss each case in public, they wouldn't have much time left to hunt i think. 3) PA Team forbids to speak about cases in public.
When people demand discussion in public, it´s usually about high profile cases which are already publically known. They´re then a matter of public interest, and therefor legit to talk about to a certain degree. Not even to mention cases where the player in question gives permission anyway.

Quote:
- Ppl accuse MH of being inconsistent

In the case of r/p, mostly true. I dare admit that. What i see as offensive, a collegue might find funny. Or normal, Or boring, Or whatever.
When i was MH, I usually measured by thinking: apart from some individual idiot, would a fair number of people find this offensive? IF so, I would then talk to collegue MH, and then decide together (except in very clear cut cases)

But let's face it, bad r/p cannot be caught in strict regulations. Have you ever tried to stop SPAM using a spam filter? Yeah? Ever tried to stop 100% cases of every variation of the word VIAGRA? I tried and I failed. Its impossible. No set of rules in a spam filter can be 100% effective against any variation of the word viagra. If you want to forbid the word **** (it's probably starred out on the forums), then you can see varations like FCK, FOCK, FECK, F-Word, FOOK, FK, F U C K, FU C K, etc etc. :P

(edit: lol, none of my variations were starred out, ergo, point proven ^^)
While I agree it´s hard (or even impossible) to set strict regulations for R/P, the MH behaviour is not acceptable. It´s equally impossible to please everyone, so if I go around and randomly report planets for offensive r/p, what would be the guideline of the MHs? Certainly I could pretend to be seriously offended by "Little Bunny OF Bunny Land" (considering some maniac teacher, scared by bunny pictures, filed a lawsuit against one of her students for drawing such a picture) - would that planet be renamed? A single random report probably shouldn´t be the reason to rename a planet in a game with over a thousand accounts, at least not in cases that are not totally clearly made to piss off people or touch really sensitive areas.

However, this leads us back to the reason why I started this thread - I have no trust or faith in the capability of the actual MH staff to judge properly. Letting slip away "Horny Bear OF Gang Bang" (which I personally do not find offensive, but it has a clear and undeniable sexual reference, and the practice of gang bang might be widely considered demeaning to women) with a top ranking, stating "we don´t have time to look through all the universe", but closing 4 planets of DunkelGraf for the word "geil" in one day doesn´t actually raise my trust, nor does their failure to listen to native speakers about this issue.


As to Lights latest post: DunkelGraf refused to have his planet renamed. The subsequent closures are technically correct, it´s the judgement of the MHs I strongly criticise. I simply disagree with the fact that if they might consider something offensive, you´re done with your name, no matter what argument you put forward. Also, they force renamed one of Dunks planets against his will, then accused him of making multi accounts when he signed up a new one with a name of his choice. This is not correct either.
Considering the MHs even manage to warn people for "incorrect user details" when they entered their real names, it shows the thin ice the MHs move on without even realising it.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 09:38   #55
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
they ALWAYS choose to close the planet rather than rename it.
In fairness, they usually close the planet, then 'invite' (hah!) the player to come to #multihunters and choose a new one. So they do both, not one or the other.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 10:19   #56
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
Also, they force renamed one of Dunks planets against his will, then accused him of making multi accounts when he signed up a new one with a name of his choice. This is not correct either.
I've had a planet closed for false sign up details, and then when I've registered another planet, I've been accused of having multiple accounts. This is a standard procedure with "difficult" clients. You trap them into breaking EULA and spam close them and tell them to sod off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
In this case, its simply "why close someone for an offensive name? especially a borderline offensive name? when you have the option to rename them and let them carry on playing?".
Really easy. Humiliation. Show of power. They're flexing their electronic penises by doing this. You could just rename the planet, and tell the owner to come discuss the case if he/she has complaints, but that would completely strip off the part where you get to go "I am the law, you are a puny player, I am able to close you whenever I want, now sod off or I'll ban you from #multihunters".
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 10:38   #57
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Really easy. Humiliation. Show of power. They're flexing their electronic penises by doing this. You could just rename the planet, and tell the owner to come discuss the case if he/she has complaints, but that would completely strip off the part where you get to go "I am the law, you are a puny player, I am able to close you whenever I want, now sod off or I'll ban you from #multihunters".
Exactly this behaviour is what really pisses me off about the current MHs. It´s no surprise really there are alot of people who complain because they feel the MHs are on some idiotic power trip. If you disagree with them, you are fighting for a lost cause usually. If the argument gets heated, they just ban you. As I said earlier, they´re police, judge, jury and executioner at once, which is an invite for power abuse.
Maybe an instance outside the MH department would be helpful to take care of argueable cases.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 11:27   #58
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
As to Lights latest post: DunkelGraf refused to have his planet renamed. The subsequent closures are technically correct, it´s the judgement of the MHs I strongly criticise. I simply disagree with the fact that if they might consider something offensive, you´re done with your name, no matter what argument you put forward. Also, they force renamed one of Dunks planets against his will, then accused him of making multi accounts when he signed up a new one with a name of his choice. This is not correct either.
Considering the MHs even manage to warn people for "incorrect user details" when they entered their real names, it shows the thin ice the MHs move on without even realising it.
Something being offensive is highly subjective and there is really little point arguing about it. If the MH's find a certain name offensive, then they should change that name. I do not disagree with that method, nor do i think its something to get angry about. The MH main duty when it comes to offensive names is to judge weither a name is offensive or not, sometimes i might completly disagree and find it laughable, sometimes i might agree. The reality is, it does not matter what i think though, only what the MH think.

Someone shouldnt be able to refuse to have there planet renamed, It should be renamed for them and then they can pop into #multihunters if they choose to, to change the name to something they want (which isnt deemed offensive).

Them forcing one of Dunks planets to be renamed, is actually a good thing the MH's have done. I dont see your argument regarding this? The only thing is, they shouldnt close as well as renaming, it should just be renamed and thats the end of it.. no need for a closure.

The MH's then accused him of having multiple accounts? when he had multiple accounts? what a shocker, i cant believe it sometimes. He had been told repeatedly that the name was not allowed, why would making a new planet with that name be any different? They are correct in this instance.

I complain about alot of the stupid things the MH do but in some of these instances, they was right. The only thing i disagree with is that they closed Dunks planet in the first place, when they simply could of renamed it to something neutral and told him if he wants to change it to something else, he can pop into #multihunters.

There is no reason getting angry when someone finds something offensive or thinks something has the potential to be offensive when you feel its fine. Its always going to happen and theres no way around it, The only major problem is there procedures when they deem a planet to be offensive that annoys me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
In fairness, they usually close the planet, then 'invite' (hah!) the player to come to #multihunters and choose a new one. So they do both, not one or the other.
There's absolutly no reason to close them though nor to force them to pop into #multihunters to 'explain themselves'.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 11:32   #59
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

I´m going to repeat myself: What If I report a random planet and demand a rename because it offends me - even if it´s completely silly, if it´s not offensive to 99% of the worlds population? Would you support a rename? Would you allow the MHs to tell me "no, it´s not offensive" when I say I am offended?
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 11:35   #60
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
I´m going to repeat myself: What If I report a random planet and demand a rename because it offends me - even if it´s completely silly, if it´s not offensive to 99% of the worlds population? Would you support a rename? Would you allow the MHs to tell me "no, it´s not offensive" when I say I am offended?
Then it probably wont be closed. Its not your job to deem planets offensive, its the MultiHunters duty.. you can only flag planets for there review.

There will be times you disagree, there will be times you find it laughable.. but it really doesnt matter.

The only real problem is that the punishment is closure and having to report to #multihunters which could be easily solved but the multihunters seem reluctant to change there procedures.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 11:40   #61
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

No, the job of the MHs while enforcing the name policy is to remove any r/p, gal banner/name etc that someone could or does find offensive. Hence, if I report some name as offensive, it´s subject to change. Read up the terms and conditions.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 11:43   #62
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
No, the job of the MHs while enforcing the name policy is to remove any r/p, gal banner/name etc that someone could or does find offensive. Hence, if I report some name as offensive, it´s subject to change. Read up the terms and conditions.
Im now confused to what your actually trying to suggest?

Are you actually arguing for a system where anyone can report anything offensive? and the planet in question is forced to change name regardless on weither it is actually offensive or not?

I dont see how that system is any better (infact its worse) than the current system where theres a group of people who have to use there judgement on what is offensive or could be offensive.

Out of everything thats gone on with Dunks account with him being closed and forced into #multihunters, then repeatadly closed again.. you've actually picked on the most trivial part which is what YOU deem to be offensive rather than what the PA Team/Multihunters/JageX may be find offensive. Ive absolutly no problem with them deciding what is or what isnt offensive in the game they are responsible for, i dont even see how you could argue otherwise.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 11:49   #63
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Im now confused to what your actually trying to suggest?
He's saying it's a categorical imperative of kinds. In fact, all planet names ever made are probably abusive to one of the six odd billion people in the world. If you take this rope, and you put someone very, very trigger happy, and very, very power hungry, and not afraid to combine these two things into a havoc of power abuse (say, butter), you'll easily come up with a lot of spew on people's ruler/planet names for no very good reason but "demeaning towards women" or "demeaning towards Indian midgets living in the Northeast borders of Pakistan".
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 11:53   #64
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Im now confused to what your actually trying to suggest?

Are you actually arguing for a system where anyone can report anything offensive? and the planet in question is forced to change name regardless on weither it is actually offensive or not?

I dont see how that system is any better (infact its worse) than the current system where theres a group of people who have to use there judgement on what is offensive or could be offensive.

Out of everything thats gone on with Dunks account with him being closed and forced into #multihunters, then repeatadly closed again.. you've actually picked on the most trivial part which is what YOU deem to be offensive rather than what the PA Team/Multihunters/JageX may be find offensive. Ive absolutly no problem with them deciding what is or what isnt offensive in the game they are responsible for, i dont even see how you could argue otherwise.
I´ll show you:

"Racism and use of words and/or pictures likely to cause offence to anybody in galaxy pictures and/or a galaxy/planet/ruler name is not allowed."

This is taken directly from the planetarion terms&conditions. It does not state the ruling is just up to the MHs, in fact it does state anything causing offense to anybody is forbidden. There is a report function for a reason. However, I do criticise the arbitrary judgement of the MHs and the inconsistency of their decisions. The whole matter about "Geil" in Dunks r/p is about as ridiculous for a german native speaker as censoring the Penis-Allianz some rounds ago. Frankly, I do not trust the sanity of ruling of the MHs overall. That´s what I said before. I do question their ability to make proper sane calls on cases. They make completely random judgements about what might be offensive and what might be not.
Following this, I do question why they should be allowed to criticise my judgement if I say I am offended by a name. It´s not their call. They are here to enforce the rules, not to tell me I shouldn´t be offended.

You question the reason they need your user details on signup, and complained when they didn´t believe your name to be Katie Katie, yet you say they should be allowed to make random judgements.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 12:09   #65
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
"Racism and use of words and/or pictures likely to cause offence to anybody in galaxy pictures and/or a galaxy/planet/ruler name is not allowed."
Yes, thats a pretty standard EULA for offensive names. Its not there to show you how the report function works, how the judgements are made or what the procedures are. Its in the EULA to give the MH's permission to close or change your galaxy/planet/ruler name if they want due to an offensive name.

Quote:
It does not state the ruling is just up to the MHs, in fact it does state anything causing offense to anybody is forbidden.
It does not have to state how the ruling is made, its in the terms and conditions to give the MH team permission to close accounts or change names based on offense.

Quote:
There is a report function for a reason. However, I do criticise the arbitrary judgement of the MHs and the inconsistency of their decisions. The whole matter about "Geil" in Dunks r/p is about as ridiculous for a german native speaker as censoring the Penis-Allianz some rounds ago. Frankly, I do not trust the sanity of ruling of the MHs overall. That´s what I said before. I do question their ability to make proper sane calls on cases. They make completely random judgements about what might be offensive and what might be not.
Offensive is subjective, You may not find something offensive that someone might. Its just a name at the end of the day, why are you complaining about such a trivial thing? and actually suggesting possible one of the worst systems ever for offensive names.

The report function is there so players can flag planets for MH's review.

Quote:
Following this, I do question why they should be allowed to criticise my judgement if I say I am offended by a name. It´s not their call. They are here to enforce the rules, not to tell me I shouldn´t be offended.
It is there call as they're the ones who decide weither something is or can be offensive. Thats there job, its not yours. Its common place in every single game for a team to decide what is and what is not offensive, you cant let your community decide as they'd just flag anything.

Quote:
You question the reason they need your user details on signup, and complained when they didn´t believe your name to be Katie Katie, yet you say they should be allowed to make random judgements.
Knowing what your first and last name is, then closing based on that is entirely different than judging what has the potential to cause offensive. They're two entirly different issues, the first/last name issue is entirly unprovable unless the game requests photoID on signup. Potential to cause offensive needs to be decided by someone or a group of people, as without that group and just letting the community force name changes (and in the current system, closing planets) would be absolutly stupid.

Seriously, You're actually arguing for a system where ANYBODY can report ANY planet? and then that planet has a forced name change, closure, and report to #multihunters? lol wtf, think about what your arguing for...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
He's saying it's a categorical imperative of kinds. In fact, all planet names ever made are probably abusive to one of the six odd billion people in the world. If you take this rope, and you put someone very, very trigger happy, and very, very power hungry, and not afraid to combine these two things into a havoc of power abuse (say, butter), you'll easily come up with a lot of spew on people's ruler/planet names for no very good reason but "demeaning towards women" or "demeaning towards Indian midgets living in the Northeast borders of Pakistan".
It is the MH's job to decide what actually can cause offense and what isnt.

If the MH's go powerhungry and make the wrong decisions, then its the Head MH's job to put that right.

Just bcus some (or one) MH is completly crap, does not mean the entire system needs to change so that there arnt any MH's and anything can be closed for any reason just via the report option which anybody can use.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 12:15   #66
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Honestly, I don't give a shit about which names the multihunters deem offensive and which they don't. The rule is crystal clear and exists almost verbatim in just about every multiplayer game EULA. They could change the rule to "we reserve the right to change the name of any fleet, planet, ruler, galaxy or alliance without reason or warning" and I wouldn't lose a moment's sleep over it. In fact, I would applaud it.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 12:26   #67
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Offensive is subjective, You may not find something offensive that someone might. Its just a name at the end of the day, why are you complaining about such a trivial thing? and actually suggesting possible one of the worst systems ever for offensive names.
Why do _they_ complain so much about a name everyone I know finds pretty funny? I do not question the system, I question the personell working in it. You obviously didn´t read this thread, or you´d know that from my very opening post. Actually, I wonder if you even read the title, as it pretty much states what the compaint is about.
I want to know good reasons why they chose to rule a name offensive and another acceptable, and why they ignore any kind of argument. Why should they be allowed to disregard a case where I´ve take offense? They´re here to do what, protect players?
Shouldn´t a single report then be enough for a rename? Or does it need a minimum number? If so, did Dunk get reported once, twice, a hundred times? What percentage of users would you deem noteworthy for a rename?
The judgement of the MHs doesn´t follow any guideline other than "you pissed us off", which is fairly unprofessional. In the actual situation, they morally have to rename any reported r/p, no matter how silly it is, or they just keep making arbitrary judgements.
Do you start to see my problem? I´ve said it before, we´ve got MHs who make random and inconsistent calls, who do not listen to sane arguments and act like little dictators in their happy little channel. If they dislike you, tough luck. I still fail to see the difference between randomly accusing someone of false signup details and randomly accusing someone of offending other players - both are based on assumption, or probably a single oppinion.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 12:48   #68
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
They could change the rule to "we reserve the right to change the name of any fleet, planet, ruler, galaxy or alliance without reason or warning" and I wouldn't lose a moment's sleep over it. In fact, I would applaud it.
You do understand that if the multihunting team was willing to give up on the perfect spot to show off their "power" and close planets based on pretty much their biological rhythms, they'd given up that power a long time ago and stopped closing planets for "offensive names".
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 12:49   #69
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
Why do _they_ complain so much about a name everyone I know finds pretty funny?
As they deemed it possible to cause offensive or that its inappropriate as this is not a 18+ game.

Quote:
I do not question the system, I question the personell working in it. You obviously didn´t read this thread, or you´d know that from my very opening post. Actually, I wonder if you even read the title, as it pretty much states what the compaint is about.
no matter what team you put in, there will always be cases where you disagree with what they deemed offensive (or didnt deem offensive).

Quote:
I want to know good reasons why they chose to rule a name offensive and another acceptable, and why they ignore any kind of argument.
I'd be fairly sure they spoke to Dunk about this case and had the discussion with him.

Quote:
Why should they be allowed to disregard a case where I´ve take offense?
As its there job to decide what is or isnt offensive. Its not yours, Someone could take offensive to anything.. it does not mean every name is unacceptable.

Quote:
They´re here to do what, protect players?
They're here in this case, to stop offensive names being put in the game.

Quote:
Shouldn´t a single report then be enough for a rename?
No, a single report is enough to get the MH's to review the planet. They will then decide if it is offensive or not.

Quote:
Or does it need a minimum number? If so, did Dunk get reported once, twice, a hundred times? What percentage of users would you deem noteworthy for a rename?
No minimum or maximum number. It is not a democracy, One report and then the planet is reviewed.. any more and nothing else happends.

Quote:
The judgement of the MHs doesn´t follow any guideline other than "you pissed us off", which is fairly unprofessional. In the actual situation, they morally have to rename any reported r/p, no matter how silly it is, or they just keep making arbitrary judgements.
Judging weither something can or might cause offensive is a arbitary judgement as how much offense is too much? and how little is allowed? As almost everything will cause offense to somewhere, the line has to be drawn somewhere or else we'll either have a game with alot of offensive names, or a game where naming your own planet isnt allowed.

Quote:
Do you start to see my problem? I´ve said it before, we´ve got MHs who make random and inconsistent calls, who do not listen to sane arguments and act like little dictators in their happy little channel. If they dislike you, tough luck.
Not really or has Dunk been closed before and they're going after him? I remember reading in this thread (i might be mistaken, so please clarify if im wrong) that Dunk has never been closed? That they havent abused there powers to close him due to disliking him.

Quote:
I still fail to see the difference between randomly accusing someone of false signup details and randomly accusing someone of offending other players - both are based on assumption, or probably a single oppinion.
False signup details are unprovable.

Possiblity to cause offensive or inappropriate names can easily be proven, its just where the line is drawn.

It does not matter who you get in to do the MH's job in this regard, they will still have to draw the line somewhere. If fairly certain if someone flagged your WoW chars name as 'horny', it would be renamed as it isnt appropriate in a game which can be played by children.



Now dont get me wrong, i think the MH team is incompetent.. especially the Head MH, as they have refused to change there procedures so that people arnt closed when they dont have to be. I even suggested about 12 easy to implement procedures which would stop all this complaining and make there life alot easier which mz linked to. However, i do not feel they are incompetent in this regard, its there job to judge what is and isnt offensive and theres no other system which could be put in place to get around that. The only thing is that a planet shouldnt be closed for it, simply renamed to a neutral name and then mailed telling them they can come to #multihunters to change it if they dont like there new name (with no mention of warnings, closures or anything).
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 13:16   #70
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
You do understand that if the multihunting team was willing to give up on the perfect spot to show off their "power" and close planets based on pretty much their biological rhythms, they'd given up that power a long time ago and stopped closing planets for "offensive names".
I don't think you understood what I said, because this is pretty much the opposite of it.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 13:39   #71
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by ricoshay View Post
That's wrong. If a MH closes a planet for 24 hours or whatever, that planet will not be able to defend or attack. The direct consequence is that his alliance and galaxy will be affected in one way or another - so the MH that closed him should apologize to them also. Therefore a public apology is in order.
I understand your reasoning, but a public apology still seems overdoing it. Btw, You could just as easily say that the closed planet also can't defend against others and does not steal roids from other planets during that time. Would players not being the victim of that closed planets also be required to publicly thank MH for saving them?
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 14:16   #72
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
When people demand discussion in public, it´s usually about high profile cases which are already publically known. They´re then a matter of public interest, and therefor legit to talk about to a certain degree. Not even to mention cases where the player in question gives permission anyway.
People demanding discussion in puiblic are not a valid reason to comply with that demand. Thats just nonsense. And iirc, Multihunters already have the authority/permisison to discuss cases in a limited way when the player(s) in the case decide(s)/allow(s)s talking about the case in public.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 14:23   #73
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

I have a question by the way. What happened to Dunkelgraf's planets? Look at http://game.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=rules .

From that page:

Abusive R/P or Alliance name
Punishment 1st offence: Warn. If offender does not show up within 48 hours, MH Staff will change the R/P name or alliance name
Punishment 2nd offence: Warn. If offender does not show up within 48 hours, MH Staff will change the R/P name or alliance name
Punishment 3rd offence: Close.
Notes on abuse:
- If the nature of an offense is extreme, immediate closure may follow.
- In extreme cases of abusive alliance names, the alliance will be disbanded.
- If the MH staff changes an R/P-name or alliance name, it will not be changed for the remainder of the round.

Now, I wrote this document myself, when i was still MH, and used the input of the other MHs to make one text about rules and regulations. It was discussed a lot, and i made the final text. So you could say, i'm quite up to date on what it means.

When Dunkelgraf was warned for the word Geil, it was his first offense. If i was informed correctly, he was warned first, and maybe a second time, and then closed. This is against the rules and regulations.

What should have happened, was: warn, and if not responded in 48 hours, or refused to pick a new r/p, MH should have changed the R/P for him for the remainder of the round. In NO way the MH should have closed his first planet, because it was STILL the first offense.

There is only one way the planet could have been closed:

- DG makes a planet, gets warned, R/P gets (force) changed, DG deletes his planet.
- DG makes a new planet, again is warned for some R/P, R/P gets (force) changed again, DG deletes his planet again
- DG makes a THIRD planet, and is closed immediately.

Trust me, this is the way this should have been handled.
If this procedure was not followed, MH has made a wrong decision and has not followed its own rules and regulations.

P.S>: Two possible variations:

1) DG preshuffle R/P was abusive, he gets warned, shuffle shanges it back to offense, warning for second offense. Even then, only his SECOND planet could have been closed by these rules
2) He also create dsome abusive alliance name. In this case after having created two offensive alliances, his first planet could theoretically be closed. But then again, yo need a planet to make an alliance, so technically, the planet would always be his first offense :P
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 14:27   #74
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

As you wrote the current document, may i ask why you decided to keep it in that players have to report to #multihunters after any warning or get closed?

I just dont understand it at all, ive tried to think of reasons for it but cant find any logical reason for it. I dont know any other games which use this system, you should only be required to pop into #multihunters if you wish to appeal a decision or want a name change (from the ones the multihunter changed it to, which to be neutral would be something pathetic like ruler002 of planet002).
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 14:30   #75
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Remy View Post
And iirc, Multihunters already have the authority/permisison to discuss cases in a limited way when the player(s) in the case decide(s)/allow(s)s talking about the case in public.
What you're saying there is that the MHs don't need to justify their decisions in public. So it's basically a check in white to abuse your "authority" without having to answer for it.

A very nice system, I agree with you. Where can I signup to get a free pass to close/warn people for the most retarded reasons? That sounds like fun!
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 14:39   #76
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

The name rules should just be:

Abusive/Inappropriate in the game Messages, Fleetname(s), Galaxy Banner, Galaxy Name, in the game Forum Posts (Galaxy and Alliance), Message from Commander

Punishment: Players ability to rename that section is removed and the default names are restored.
Appeal: A player may appeal the decision if they think it is in error by going to #multihunters.



Abusive R/P or Alliance name

Punishment: The R/P or Alliance name will be changed to a default name. The player can join #multihunters if they wish to change there name to something different if they wish (and will be checked then if the new name is offensive).


With no forced 'join #multihunters' for a telling off. I dont see why multihunters tend to want to close planets when there are perfectly viable alternatives.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 14:41   #77
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Remy View Post
I don't remember ever seeing that before. Thanks for posting it.

It is somewhat entertaining to me that an ex-multihunter should be the one to respond to this topic in a useful fashion, rather than Ace, the current head multihunter. PA PR at its finest!
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 14:45   #78
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I don't remember ever seeing that before. Thanks for posting it.

It is somewhat entertaining to me that an ex-multihunter should be the one to respond to this topic in a useful fashion, rather than Ace, the current head multihunter. PA PR at its finest!
It's been there for some time, but probably not advertised properly. I think i quit MH round 34, and i also think we made that page in round.... 32 or 33?

As for only me responding, i can't help that :/
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 14:51   #79
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
The name rules should just be:

Abusive/Inappropriate in the game Messages, Fleetname(s), Galaxy Banner, Galaxy Name, in the game Forum Posts (Galaxy and Alliance), Message from Commander

Punishment: Players ability to rename that section is removed and the default names are restored.
Appeal: A player may appeal the decision if they think it is in error by going to #multihunters.



Abusive R/P or Alliance name

Punishment: The R/P or Alliance name will be changed to a default name. The player can join #multihunters if they wish to change there name to something different if they wish (and will be checked then if the new name is offensive).


With no forced 'join #multihunters' for a telling off. I dont see why multihunters tend to want to close planets when there are perfectly viable alternatives.
Well, before i quit MH, there was talk about changing the system to what you just said, and i BELIEVE that disabling changing such stuff is already in place. If so, the manual clearly is outdated on that point (again). If not, then i'm wondering what happened to the coding results i saw from Cin. I am almost 100% sure i rememebr him showing off that new system being coded.

As for joining #multihunters. The warning/closure message states (i think) that not showing up MAY result in being closed. Not sure of that, i havent received warnings :P. Last time i was closed was in round 10 (and yes i got reopened \o/). And i think that the showing up in #mhs is wanted so MHs can talk to the warned players to decide if a closure is needed. In my days, and i suppose thats still how it is done, it's normal to warn fist, then close, in a number of offenses. Somtimes the MH needs to speak to the culprit before making a final decision.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 15:23   #80
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Another thing:

One reason for MH not to respond to these threads might be, and i know this from first hand experience, that as players feel they hit a brick wall with MH, that MH hit a brick wall if they tried to explain themselves.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 15:28   #81
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Remy View Post
Well, before i quit MH, there was talk about changing the system to what you just said, and i BELIEVE that disabling changing such stuff is already in place. If so, the manual clearly is outdated on that point (again). If not, then i'm wondering what happened to the coding results i saw from Cin. I am almost 100% sure i rememebr him showing off that new system being coded.
I think it was said in a previous thread that those tools are now available to MH but they havent changed any of the procedures and instead continue to closure first method.

Quote:
As for joining #multihunters. The warning/closure message states (i think) that not showing up MAY result in being closed. Not sure of that, i havent received warnings :P. Last time i was closed was in round 10 (and yes i got reopened \o/). And i think that the showing up in #mhs is wanted so MHs can talk to the warned players to decide if a closure is needed. In my days, and i suppose thats still how it is done, it's normal to warn fist, then close, in a number of offenses. Somtimes the MH needs to speak to the culprit before making a final decision.
but it will result in a closure if you dont respond.

You dont need to talk to someone to decide weither a closure is needed with any custom name. Just remove the ability they abused and allow them to continue playing the game.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 15:40   #82
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Light, I stopped being an MH for some rounds now, so i'm not fully up to date. When i left, MH department was busy with trying to make the warning/closure system better and less harsh. The disabling of changing fleet names and such was just one such measure that was being taken. I would not know how the current situation is, as now im just a normal player, and am NOT kept into the loop. And thats how it should be :-)

By the way, i would like to stress the point about MH hitting a brick wall with the community of players; whenver MH discussed a case in public, or with a number of involved people, nothing ever could convince lpayers that MH was right, no matter what was said, or shown as proof. MH was always wrong, and players always claimed to be right. In the past MHs used to reply, but always got flamed at, without seriously being listened to. That might be a reason for MH dept. not to be too happy about posting on threads: they only get flamed at.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 15:51   #83
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Remy View Post
I would not know how the current situation is, as now im just a normal player, and am NOT kept into the loop. And thats how it should be :-)
No, no, no! And you were doing so well.

We (most of us) are paying customers and we should be kept in the loop about the rules and procedures. While I understand and (to a certain extend) agree that you can't discuss individual cases, we should never have to guess about what is legal and illegal and how each violation will be punished. The document you wrote is excellent because it leaves as close to no doubt as you're likely to get and it is very unfortunate that is apparently not adhered to religiously.

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Originally Posted by Remy View Post
By the way, i would like to stress the point about MH hitting a brick wall with the community of players; whenver MH discussed a case in public, or with a number of involved people, nothing ever could convince lpayers that MH was right, no matter what was said, or shown as proof. MH was always wrong, and players always claimed to be right. In the past MHs used to reply, but always got flamed at, without seriously being listened to. That might be a reason for MH dept. not to be too happy about posting on threads: they only get flamed at.
Part of the job description of the head multihunter should be interacting with the community. There will always be people who disagree with decisions taken, but there will also always be people who agree.

I invite you to reread the topic about the galaxy that was closed for bug abuse last round. You will see that there were people who supported the decision and people who argued against it.

Sometimes, doing nothing is the worst possible course of action. I think this is one of those occasions.

As for discussing it with the people who were involved, of course they're never going to admit a fault. It's the same reason that MHs rarely do.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 16:15   #84
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
No, no, no! And you were doing so well.
mz, i meant that MH department is not informing me more then other, JUST because i used to be an MH. If i would ask for an explanation about a case, i get the same response as everyone else. In that way, i'm not kept into the loop. Sorry for the unclear way i expressed myself :-)
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 16:59   #85
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Fair enough.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 17:38   #86
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Part of the job description of the head multihunter should be interacting with the community.
Transparency and communication in rules enforcement of all kinds is generally viewed as positive yes, and helps build a good relationship and establish respect and credibility.

However, we need to consider that we might not have the resources in the multihunter team for this communication.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 18:30   #87
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Remy View Post
Light, I stopped being an MH for some rounds now, so i'm not fully up to date. When i left, MH department was busy with trying to make the warning/closure system better and less harsh. The disabling of changing fleet names and such was just one such measure that was being taken. I would not know how the current situation is, as now im just a normal player, and am NOT kept into the loop. And thats how it should be :-)
but isnt that the thing? I know MH cant comment on individual cases but what they can comment on is procedures used on those types of cases and what they're planning on doing each round with those procedures.

Why havent the 'normal players' been kept in the loop with what the MH are intending to do? and there current ETA of when they expect to get the new/better procedures put in place?

Quote:
By the way, i would like to stress the point about MH hitting a brick wall with the community of players; whenver MH discussed a case in public, or with a number of involved people, nothing ever could convince lpayers that MH was right, no matter what was said, or shown as proof. MH was always wrong, and players always claimed to be right. In the past MHs used to reply, but always got flamed at, without seriously being listened to. That might be a reason for MH dept. not to be too happy about posting on threads: they only get flamed at.
It seems to be a problem that the Community is fighting the MH and the MH is fighting the community. When they should be working together, as were not a huge game, we've got afew hundred active IRC players (and alot less active forum posters) where we all dont want cheating or other things. The main divide is that the MH constantly overstep on what they do, instead of just ensuring fairplay and no cheating, they start closing people for trivial reasons.

We have in place now methods to remove the ability for planets to rename there fleets and other things. So there is absolutly no reason to close a planet for that anymore, as you can just remove there ability to rename them (or incase of planets, just rename the planet). Hell, they could implement a zero tolerance with it, where even the slightly offensive names could mean 'no more renaming' for that planet and it would be ALOT better than the current system, as at least they can still play.

I'll quote JBG from a previous MH thread:
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Someone needs to stop the multihunters from pretending that they need to deal with this stuff. Find something useful to ****ing do for the love of god.
Multihunters shouldnt be wasting there time with this trivial stuff and shouldnt be closing people for it. Its custom names ffs, its hardly a huge gameplay issue and its hardly providing a planet an unfair advantage.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 18:32   #88
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

After going over the said rules a few times in the last few days and by talking to a few ppl about them it seems i interpreted the said rule a bit different then how the other ppl read it.
I already talked to DG about this and apologized to him for my mistake in this case.

I will ofc discuss this with my team and make sure we will follow said rule the way it was read.

Regards,
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 18:37   #89
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Ace View Post
After going over the said rules a few times in the last few days and by talking to a few ppl about them it seems i interpreted the said rule a bit different then how the other ppl read it.
I already talked to DG about this and apologized to him for my mistake in this case.

I will ofc discuss this with my team and make sure we will follow said rule the way it was read.

Regards,
Cant you discuss with your team, future rule and procedure changes so we stop having planets closed for trivial reasons?

Closure should be for planets you dont wish to play Planetarion again due to unfair abuses such as farming or bug abuse. It should never be your first port of call in every offense especially when you have viable alternatives.

and then while your at it, restructure the rules so people no longer need to join #multihunters when warned for trivial things or face closure.

If you take DG's case, if you had just renamed his stuff and told him he could pop into MH if he wished to change it to something else. The hole mess would of been avoided and if it was done in error (as everyone makes mistakes sometimes), he wouldnt of lost anything.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 18:46   #90
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

In cases of abusive r/p names we warned planets and rewarned after 48 hours.
If there was no response we would rename it.

That was the way we interpreted that rule.
The DG's case was different as you point it out Light and those options where given to him too.
I cant go in to the details of the case.
But lets say the renaming of a planet didnt help in this case.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 19:33   #91
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

I just wish Multihunters would go back to catching people who cheat...
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 22:02   #92
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

pipe down DS.
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 23:16   #93
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
If you take DG's case, if you had just renamed his stuff and told him he could pop into MH if he wished to change it to something else. The hole mess would of been avoided and if it was done in error (as everyone makes mistakes sometimes), he wouldnt of lost anything.
As Ace already said, that would not have helped at all. He asked me what new r/p i would like to have after i showed up in #multihunters. I told him that i do not want another name as i do not see it being offensive in any way!
So he closed me which is ok.
For me it is all about the word "geil" being offensive or not. Nothing more nothing less!
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Unread 31 Aug 2010, 23:18   #94
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Never stop aiming so low that your chin develops calluses.
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Unread 1 Sep 2010, 10:21   #95
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Head MH apologied ... hmm didn't expect that to happen.
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Unread 1 Sep 2010, 16:53   #96
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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As Ace already said, that would not have helped at all. He asked me what new r/p i would like to have after i showed up in #multihunters. I told him that i do not want another name as i do not see it being offensive in any way!
So he closed me which is ok.
For me it is all about the word "geil" being offensive or not. Nothing more nothing less!
Then tbh, i dont really see what the MH's did wrong.

They deemed it offensive, it doesnt matter if you think it is or not as your opinion is void.

I searched yesturday for other cases game have had and WoW admins did a forced rename on a char which when translated meant 'always horny' which is basically the same
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Unread 1 Sep 2010, 17:53   #97
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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I searched yesturday for other cases game have had and WoW admins did a forced rename on a char which when translated meant 'always horny' which is basically the same
World of Warcraft admins aren't nearly as triggerhappy as the ones here, however. You'll only really have to do something retarded to get a forced name change, and even so, they will simply force a name change. I've never, ever heard of a case of a player being banned from the game due to abusive names, even though the grandest AJ offenders have six or seven forced name changes on their accounts.
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Unread 1 Sep 2010, 19:16   #98
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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World of Warcraft admins aren't nearly as triggerhappy as the ones here, however. You'll only really have to do something retarded to get a forced name change, and even so, they will simply force a name change. I've never, ever heard of a case of a player being banned from the game due to abusive names, even though the grandest AJ offenders have six or seven forced name changes on their accounts.
That was my original point, that custom names on anything should never be a reason for closure.. when you can simply rename it for them (and disable there option to change it).

but DK said it wasnt about his closure, so pointed out that WoW did a forcename change for someone with a foreign word meaning 'always horny' which is almost the same as his translated 'horny' name
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Unread 2 Sep 2010, 03:43   #99
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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'Kaka' does not mean 'shit' in Dutch. The word you're looking for is 'kak', and it's better translated as 'poo'.
Cack or kack is also slang for Shite in English \o/
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Unread 2 Sep 2010, 08:26   #100
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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but DK said it wasnt about his closure, so pointed out that WoW did a forcename change for someone with a foreign word meaning 'always horny' which is almost the same as his translated 'horny' name
I've had a character on a RP-PVP server whose name apparently means manure of a certain herd animal in Turkish and I've not had a forced name change in whatnot three odd years. Recently, however, after a year and odd of playing at level 80, Madkunt was forced to rename.
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