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Unread 6 Nov 2003, 19:30   #1
wu_trax
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linux

is overrated
(either that or im just too ****in stupid for the whole thing )
i tryed to install some rpm-package, then that rpm-thing told me that the package i tryed to install needs some other package to work. so i download the needed package and try to install it, but surprise, surprise it also needs another package. and so on and so on
antoher funny thing are those bloody version numbers. some guy thought its a good idea to use a number like 6.10 and now everything i try to install seems to think 6.10 < 6.3

and all i try to do is to make some 'backup' of a dvd i own
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Unread 6 Nov 2003, 20:12   #2
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Re: linux

Paging Idi and Nod to thread 171901

What distro out of interest?
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Unread 6 Nov 2003, 20:50   #3
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Re: linux

you are "just too ****in stupid for the whole thing".
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Unread 6 Nov 2003, 20:52   #4
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Re: linux

You're not idi and nod!
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Unread 6 Nov 2003, 21:03   #5
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Re: linux

its sue 9.0 if that is what you mean.
this is just soooo ridiculus. im trying to compile something called 'transcode'. for some other program i need a version larger 0.6.3-2.
so i downloaded version 0.6.11 (which is newer than 0.6.9), but for some strage reason that other program i try to install doesnt 'get' it. it seems to think its older than the required version. (compiling and installing transcode works fine)
but who cares about a few version-numbers? i tryed an older realese ( 0.6.9-something)
that one doesnt compile and neither do any even older versions.
i gues ill just give up
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Unread 6 Nov 2003, 21:56   #6
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Re: linux

Quote:
Originally Posted by inf
you are "just too ****in stupid for the whole thing".
YES
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Unread 7 Nov 2003, 01:20   #7
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Re: linux

Sounds like you have a very odd program there.

Yeah you have to chase dependancies sometimes, but I've never had much trouble beyond that (apart from initially finding where the hell MDK had hidden it's kernel header RPM).

Remember: no-one's saying linux is easy to use.
Powerful, yes. Reliable, yes. Friendly to Average Joe, no.

And no I don't use linux all that often - I just know enough to "get by" compiling programs if I need them, etc.
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Unread 7 Nov 2003, 01:23   #8
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Re: linux

Linux rocks but it can still be a pain in the arse.

See if there is an APT repository for SuSe, I am pretty sure I read about one. then install apt and synaptic. This should help sort out the dependancy problems

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Unread 7 Nov 2003, 19:10   #9
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Re: linux

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
And no I don't use linux all that often - I just know enough to "get by" compiling programs if I need them, etc.
usually i got by aswell. php, apache, mysql ... all not much of a problem.
but this crap just doesnt want to wok
im trying to use something called 'dvd::rip'. finally i managed to install everything that is needed and it even starts. but when i attempt to rip a dvd, a window pops up which tells me i need to rip the dvd first (wtf? thats what im trying to do ) that bloody program uses the wrong directory, not the actual dvd-drive, but the target-directory i want the ripped files to be stored in.

once im not that annoyed anymore ill just use the commandline programms and skip this damn gui, should have done that in the first place
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Unread 7 Nov 2003, 23:09   #10
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Re: linux

You could always try Gentoo. One command and your applications dependancies are calculated and updated as needed and the application installed. It's been so long since I have used any other distro I can not imagine life without portage.
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Unread 9 Nov 2003, 15:35   #11
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Re: linux

Gentoo and Debian are more difficult to install than RH/SuSE, but in the end it pays itself back.

But on a side-note, I thought SuSE and RH both have a pseudo-package system too?

Like RH's up2date or something? That could perhaps fix you dependancy problems...
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Unread 9 Nov 2003, 16:23   #12
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Re: linux

all i know about Suse is the yast2-thing, but that only allows you to install packages from dvd. all these rip-utilities and codecs arent exactly leagal i think. they didnt even put anything that plays DVD-movies on their DVD, for some copyright reasons. i had to install that xine-stuff manually.

anyway, i fixed my problems now (at least up to now... ), thanks for your help.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 10:08   #13
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Re: linux

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
all i know about Suse is the yast2-thing, but that only allows you to install packages from dvd. all these rip-utilities and codecs arent exactly leagal i think. they didnt even put anything that plays DVD-movies on their DVD, for some copyright reasons. i had to install that xine-stuff manually.

anyway, i fixed my problems now (at least up to now... ), thanks for your help.
Well, how did you fix your problem then?
About the Yast2 thing: are you sure you looked at all options, as I'd be quite surprised if the only option is to install packages from the DVD. A contradiction to the common Linux philosophy so to say.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 12:05   #14
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Re: linux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanceman
Well, how did you fix your problem then?
About the Yast2 thing: are you sure you looked at all options, as I'd be quite surprised if the only option is to install packages from the DVD. A contradiction to the common Linux philosophy so to say.
with a 60GB ntfs-partition, windows XP and DVD-shrink :/ (it should all work with transcode, but right now i dont have time to read the manuals man-pages, etc.
im quite sure that with yast2 you only can install the things on the DVD.
ofc, you can always compile on your own or install rpm-packages.
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Unread 11 Nov 2003, 13:48   #15
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Re: linux

this time ill stay with it. i wont give up this time.
(i installed it a few times before, but never seriously used it, except for mysql, apache and mldonkey)
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Unread 13 Nov 2003, 21:53   #16
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Re: linux

well i used to like slackware 7.0 (poss 8.0).
As it was simple, and let you get down the bare-bones of unix.

Normally a pain in the arse when you wanted to put in packages like Gnome or KDE which depended on about 400 other packages. Which are horrid to compile.
Unless you can snag the precompiled stuff from linuxpackages.net, and thery don;t always work.

Tried 9.0 and it put me off forever. Why not try FreeBSD? I have a friend (clever chap doing networking) who swears by it. The central BSD organisations normally make better decisions than the various linux vendors in my opinion. And freeBSD has a nice 'ports' thing that solves alot of the problems with dependances.

Anyway, goodluck. Let me know what you decide you like the best

p.s. Slackware is the most BSD like Linux distro.


[edit] just to clarify, i meant 'simple' in the terms of linux geekyness. Like spending 10 minutes changing around inetd.conf, by looking at about 3 man files, instead of dealing with a load of hard to use GUI thingees in X Windows.
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Unread 13 Nov 2003, 23:08   #17
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Re: linux

i think ill stick with suse (or now novel) linux 9.0 for now. except for the dvd-ripping everything i need seems to work now.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 02:20   #18
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Re: linux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azaghal
Gentoo and Debian are more difficult to install than RH/SuSE, but in the end it pays itself back.
Sorry, someone let me know when the pay off for gentoo is.

Is it when I spend half the time recompiling packages? Or is it when my carefully crafted package mask and customised (ie broken by the 'maintainer') ebuilds get obliterated by 'updating'?

Or perhaps it is when the shockingly badly designed package management system takes 15 minutes to resolve its dependencies?

Or maybe when I'm prompted to 'update' a package because some ****rinse has been omitted from the 'credits' of a package?

Actually, the install of gentoo is simple. You print the docs, and type the words they tell you. Its completely simple, a monkey could do it. All it takes is time.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 06:45   #19
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Re: linux

Quote:
Originally Posted by MT
Sorry, someone let me know when the pay off for gentoo is.
No other distro has come even close to Gentoo in terms of speed on my aging Celeron 333
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 10:16   #20
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Re: linux

Quote:
Originally Posted by MT
Sorry, someone let me know when the pay off for gentoo is.
It may take more time, yes, but for what i use my server for... its damn good. it even managed to run quickly on a Cyrix 100 (all i could use at work to start with, now got a 333) - saying that, i did do the compiles on a speedy P4

And you also don't get the bloat that comes with other Distros. Minimal install (and ability to compile stuff, useful as i run an IRCd for development and code the odd bot) in 400MB for a full compiler, php / perl compat webserver, mysql, ftp and email, thats not bad if u ask me
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 16:46   #21
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Re: linux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit
It may take more time, yes, but for what i use my server for... its damn good. it even managed to run quickly on a Cyrix 100 (all i could use at work to start with, now got a 333) - saying that, i did do the compiles on a speedy P4

And you also don't get the bloat that comes with other Distros. Minimal install (and ability to compile stuff, useful as i run an IRCd for development and code the odd bot) in 400MB for a full compiler, php / perl compat webserver, mysql, ftp and email, thats not bad if u ask me
?

If you choose not to install anything, then it doesnt get installed. I'd have thought those 'bloaty' management tools of debian/redhat/suse in fact take up less space than those of gentoo, as they do not rely on python.

BTW, let me know what a good time to expect to start seeing the benefits will be.

I've been using it for 18 months, I thought that should be long enough.
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 01:31   #22
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Re: linux

oh look. now everyone has stopped stroking gentoo's ****.

SURPRISE SUR ****ING PRISE.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 19:42   #23
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Re: linux

Quote:
Originally Posted by MT
Sorry, someone let me know when the pay off for gentoo is.

Is it when I spend half the time recompiling packages? Or is it when my carefully crafted package mask and customised (ie broken by the 'maintainer') ebuilds get obliterated by 'updating'?
I don't really believe in the optimizations flags, but portage is ****ing nice. It's way more up to date than Debian, and more packages than up2date can give you.

That is if you want to compile your packages. I don't compile the packages because of the gcc optimizations, but because you can leave out parts that you don't want compiled in. Like... KDE/Gnome support. Sure, other distros offer this up to some extent... And it must be said that the Gentoo community is actually useful, it's one of the most helpful you'll find. No matter how many Gentoo propaganda you get on slashdot.

And actually, broken ****ed up packages are way more common on Debian.
Quote:
Actually, the install of gentoo is simple. You print the docs, and type the words they tell you. Its completely simple, a monkey could do it. All it takes is time.
Right, so a command line installation is just as easy as a point-n-click install?

Just because you are so l33t with the command line doesn't mean a Windows user will think the same.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 21:00   #24
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Re: linux

x86 ASM is simple.
Simple isn't the same as easy.
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Unread 19 Nov 2003, 01:53   #25
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Re: linux

If you don't see the benifits of Gentoo after 18 months then maybe it's not the distro for you. However, it is for me... and many other people, and I see many benifits in it over other distro's.

With a not too old/not too new processor (P3 1ghz), emerge's on my system are hardly noticable and don't effect my daily routine at all. This is because i use a kernel configured for exactly this. My system is always up-to-date with the latest releases of everything I use with barely any thought or effort from me That is really quite a relief, having experience tracking done RPM's for hours with other distro's.

Also, as for the complaints about spending so much time on this. If you have an older system and want things faster (compiling KDE or, say, OpenOffice could be a huge task on a <= 500mhz processor) you could always use the binary packages they provide. They wont be bleeding-edge-up-to-date, but they will be ready a lot faster and won't be older then the last binary disc (gentoo cd 2) was made.

The gentoo development team also seems to stay on top of what the community wants more so then I have ever seen else where. How many distro's make it as easy to use the latest 2.6 kernel releases as gentoo?

Having a huge community backing which is open and not trapped behind a 'support-like' system is also a huge plus. I have never had a problem which wasn't solved within hours via gentoo's irc channel (600+ people 24/7) or discussion forums.

Gentoo is still apretty young though and it certainly is not perfect. It is by far my favorite distro though.
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Unread 28 Nov 2003, 12:35   #26
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Re: linux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azaghal
Right, so a command line installation is just as easy as a point-n-click install?

Just because you are so l33t with the command line doesn't mean a Windows user will think the same.

Seriously. you type the commands it tells you. In terms of actually doing stuff, it took me longer to install FC1 the other night than it did to install gentoo.
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Unread 28 Nov 2003, 12:41   #27
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Re: linux

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Originally Posted by Tweakster
If you don't see the benifits of Gentoo after 18 months then maybe it's not the distro for you. However, it is for me... and many other people, and I see many benifits in it over other distro's.

With a not too old/not too new processor (P3 1ghz), emerge's on my system are hardly noticable and don't effect my daily routine at all. This is because i use a kernel configured for exactly this. My system is always up-to-date with the latest releases of everything I use with barely any thought or effort from me That is really quite a relief, having experience tracking done RPM's for hours with other distro's.

Also, as for the complaints about spending so much time on this. If you have an older system and want things faster (compiling KDE or, say, OpenOffice could be a huge task on a <= 500mhz processor) you could always use the binary packages they provide. They wont be bleeding-edge-up-to-date, but they will be ready a lot faster and won't be older then the last binary disc (gentoo cd 2) was made.

The gentoo development team also seems to stay on top of what the community wants more so then I have ever seen else where. How many distro's make it as easy to use the latest 2.6 kernel releases as gentoo?

Having a huge community backing which is open and not trapped behind a 'support-like' system is also a huge plus. I have never had a problem which wasn't solved within hours via gentoo's irc channel (600+ people 24/7) or discussion forums.

Gentoo is still apretty young though and it certainly is not perfect. It is by far my favorite distro though.
  1. Good for you
  2. erm .. yum .. apt .. both run much faster and more intelligently than portage
  3. If you just use binary packages, where is the 'advantage' of gentoo?
  4. suse, redhat, debian, slackware ............................
  5. you exaggerate, I've never seen more than 350 in there, about the same number as on #fedora, and less than on #debian.
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Unread 28 Nov 2003, 12:42   #28
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Re: linux

Forgot to mention - you run emerge via cron?
Way to go with the lack of security in gentoo
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Unread 29 Nov 2003, 02:57   #29
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Re: linux

Quote:
Originally Posted by MT
  1. Good for you
  2. erm .. yum .. apt .. both run much faster and more intelligently than portage
  3. If you just use binary packages, where is the 'advantage' of gentoo?
  4. suse, redhat, debian, slackware ............................
  5. you exaggerate, I've never seen more than 350 in there, about the same number as on #fedora, and less than on #debian.
By using the binary packages you do pass up on Gentoo's main advantage. Then again, this is not a disadvantage compared to any other distro. I don't personally use any binary packages but I am glad to know they are at least available for people with older systems who may not want to spend days compiling a large application.

As I am typing this there are 638 people in #gentoo on freenode, I have NEVER seen it drop below 600. I do not disconnect from IRC and have been paying attention in that channel for ~4 months.

I am just trying to point out some of the key advantages I see in Gentoo.
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Unread 29 Nov 2003, 10:07   #30
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Re: linux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azaghal
And actually, broken ****ed up packages are way more common on Debian..
I have not found this. I have found that some highly experimental packages have broken on me such as Gnome 2.4. But portage was the same. And configuration files were a nightmare (or am I just too perfectionist?). I knew binaries existed somewhere, but I never bothered to use them, which meant I never used a package in a rush. It is so much easier to be able to, say, apt-get install texmacs, and be typing away in seconds. Can emerge notice dependencies yet for unmerging?

Really, I use Debian because of its excellent support of Common Lisp. I noticed Gentoo was getting some CL stuff but it didn't "just work" for me, and it was not as complete.

Debian's support for compiling kernels, and in particular kernel modules, is top class.

I don't know anything about Debian's support for legally dodgy software such as DeCSS. That might be a point in Gentoo's favour.
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Unread 29 Nov 2003, 13:23   #31
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Re: linux

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Originally Posted by queball
I have not found this. I have found that some highly experimental packages have broken on me such as Gnome 2.4. But portage was the same. And configuration files were a nightmare (or am I just too perfectionist?). I knew binaries existed somewhere, but I never bothered to use them, which meant I never used a package in a rush. It is so much easier to be able to, say, apt-get install texmacs, and be typing away in seconds. Can emerge notice dependencies yet for unmerging?
Which Debian tree did you run? For a dekstop you (unless you are fine with having outdated packages) will need to run unstable. Unstable of course sticks to it's name with a lot of broken packages. And even when other distro's were all up to date running KDE 3.1, stable was at KDE 2.2, and even unstable didn't have KDE 3.0.

And actually I like Gentoo's way of configuration, there is no central YaST-like system which is nice because you are in full controll and don't end up having YaST roll-back all your hand-made configurations. The Gentoo forums are full of how to install packages, so there's no need for a ncurses configuration tool.

And the binary packages are atm for the large packages, like KDE. They are for convenience, but ofc Gentoo is still mainly focused at compiling from source. So if you simply want to type apt-get -i package, and be typing right away, then Gentoo is not for you.
Quote:
Debian's support for compiling kernels, and in particular kernel modules, is top class.
Sure, you have a decent tool which makes a .deb of your custom kernel, but Gentoo has much more to offer. Right now there are 47 kernel ebuilds, all with different patches (including a patched openmosix kernel for example) so you will always find something for your taste. And common kernel modules are not a problem either, 'emerge nvidia-kernel' or 'alsa-driver' for example is all you need.
Quote:
I don't know anything about Debian's support for legally dodgy software such as DeCSS. That might be a point in Gentoo's favour.
Well Gentoo is a bit less legal-orientated than Debian (with it's clear seperation of Free software from other software, etc). You can consider that an advantage or a disadvantage.
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Unread 29 Nov 2003, 16:57   #32
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Re: linux

I use Mandrake 9.1. It aint the best but is easy. I only use it for C programming tho lol...
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Unread 2 Dec 2003, 12:38   #33
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Re: linux

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Originally Posted by Eidron
I use Mandrake 9.1. It aint the best but is easy. I only use it for C programming tho lol...
lol!
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Unread 2 Dec 2003, 17:17   #34
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Re: linux

Linux is indeed overated, I just read an interesting article that an INDEPENDENT study showed Linux has now taken the lead in being the most hacked OS \0/

Long live Windows.
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Unread 3 Dec 2003, 01:55   #35
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Re: linux

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Originally Posted by idimmu
install debian
upgrade to unstable
problem solved

(also that independent study was paid for by MS and is all lies)
ERRRRrrr, wrong. It was Independent. Your thinking about the MS one that shows Linux costs more actually. Which is supported by another INDEPENDTENT report that came up with the same results. Though, as noted if you'r running windows 95 or NT then upgradeing to Linux might be worth it, but I doubt it still since you would have to retrain staff that have always used windows. Which is why the report suggested useful for places that did mostly just data entry and such.
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Unread 3 Dec 2003, 06:36   #36
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Re: linux

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Originally Posted by Intrepid00
ERRRRrrr, wrong. It was Independent. Your thinking about the MS one that shows Linux costs more actually. Which is supported by another INDEPENDTENT report that came up with the same results. Though, as noted if you'r running windows 95 or NT then upgradeing to Linux might be worth it, but I doubt it still since you would have to retrain staff that have always used windows. Which is why the report suggested useful for places that did mostly just data entry and such.
For every report that says something there is a report that says something else.. and the results all comes down to how you define 'hacking' ..

Got links, or just trolling?
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Unread 3 Dec 2003, 16:35   #37
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Re: linux

For linux costs they include the costs to retrain Windows users to use Linux...
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Unread 3 Dec 2003, 17:49   #38
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Re: linux

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Originally Posted by Azaghal
For linux costs they include the costs to retrain Windows users to use Linux...
Which is a vaild cost anyone takes into consderation when they decide to do something diffrent. Try again.
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Unread 3 Dec 2003, 19:45   #39
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Re: linux

Windows more secure than Linux... yeah right.

I know exactly what is going on with my Linux machine, as for the windows one... heh, who knows what MS do all closed source, they can hide alsorts of 'problems' or 'features'.
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Unread 3 Dec 2003, 20:03   #40
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Re: linux

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Originally Posted by Intrepid00
Which is a vaild cost anyone takes into consderation when they decide to do something diffrent. Try again.
And that makes Linux more expensive?

If you're comparing a Windows solution with a Linux solution, it's not objective to include retraining costs only for Linux.
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Unread 3 Dec 2003, 21:15   #41
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Re: linux

Ermmm? Where talking about going from Windows (something more then 95% of the world uses) to linux. Not Linux to Windows. Remember DOS, remember how the average moron couldn't use it.
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Unread 4 Dec 2003, 10:45   #42
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Re: linux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepid00
Ermmm? Where talking about going from Windows (something more then 95% of the world uses) to linux. Not Linux to Windows. Remember DOS, remember how the average moron couldn't use it.
average moron?

a moron is a moron in my book
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