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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 20:58   #1
JonnyBGood
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Americans and evil and torture Iraqis true story
Die evil American scum, die!
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 21:01   #2
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Exclamation Re: Americans and evil and torture Iraqis true story
Info is released of Iraqi prisoners being humiliated by American personnel, which is subsequently broadcast around the Arab World.

PR Disaster.

George Bush chooses not to comment on it in any way for three days, as this might give the folks at home the wrong impression about how the occupation was going.

PR Disaster.
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 21:04   #3
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Re: Americans and evil and torture Iraqis true story
apparently it only got page 26 coverage in the washington post, i dont know about other news sources, but according to channel 4 news its not being highly publicised at all. and we all know john snow is god.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 00:03   #4
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Turns out they're not the only ones
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Unread 1 May 2004, 00:11   #5
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Yer evil british guys now.
Clearly this kind of thing has been going on and is going on for ages. It's just that now people have gotten hold of the pics to prove it. Imagine all the things that have gone on and not been caught on camera.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 01:09   #6
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Ah well. This is what happens when soldiers get frustrated. There's really nothing new or surprising about it.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 01:18   #7
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Well clearly that's not satisfactory. This band of cowboys went in to Iraq for WMD,couldn't find them then said it was to stop torture and rape rooms etc.
Now we have torture and there have been numerous rape's by soldiers (however they are hardly taken seriously or reported higher up the chain of command).

This is a new level of hipocracy even for the americans. And is anything going to change? No.
Pisses you off doesnt it?
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Unread 1 May 2004, 01:25   #8
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Yes it does.
One rule for them and one for others, i say this because i bet the head commander at that prison doesn't get court marshelled. How do they expect to get every-day joe iraqis' on their side when they do this kind of stuff...
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Unread 1 May 2004, 01:32   #9
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
But they're just a bunch of rag heads!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Unread 1 May 2004, 01:33   #10
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
(ie ... so what's the big deal)
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Unread 1 May 2004, 02:00   #11
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Additional PR disaster when GWB did eventually comment: "I don't like it one bit."
Cheers George, superbly eloquent as usual.

Yes I imagine this sort of thing has gone on in every major conflict we've had. That doesn't make it right or even acceptable though does it? At least now there's evidence so some of the people involved can be dealt with.
Imagine the fuss there'd be if it was discovered Iraqi's had done this to US soldiers. GWB would probably have launched right into Operation Shock and Awe: Genesis or something. The very least that can be done is to kick the people dumb enough to appear in photos out of the army. It's so hypocritical as to be unbelievable.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 03:08   #12
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Consider this:

This is a crime because these prisoners are protected by the Geneva convention, they cannot be abused or degraded this was according to international law. Yet this is what happens to them.

Interestingly, if the SAME behaviour were to happen at Guantanimo bay, outside the eyes of the public, outside the eyes of the Red Cross except on scheduled, supervised visits... this would not even be against the law due to the manner in which the US has chosen to dodge the Geneva Convention. Those prisoners do not even have the apparently flimsy legal protection, and as they have been denied charge, legal access and even consulr access, we have no idea what is going on there...

Go Bush.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 05:15   #13
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Exclamation Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Imagine the fuss there'd be if it was discovered Iraqi's had done this to US soldiers.
Some American soliders were abused by Iraqi's. Not that that justifies or excuses anything, of course.
Quote:
GWB would probably have launched right into Operation Shock and Awe: Genesis or something. The very least that can be done is to kick the people dumb enough to appear in photos out of the army.
I'm sure they will get a lot worse than that. I only hope the officers who were [supposed to be] in charge are punished as well.
Quote:
It's so hypocritical as to be unbelievable.
The only thing that would be hypocritical is if they weren't (sufficiently) punished.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
Consider this:

This is a crime because these prisoners are protected by the Geneva convention, they cannot be abused or degraded this was according to international law. Yet this is what happens to them.
It's also a crime under the US Uniform Code of Military Justice. These crimes came to light, not because of the careful supervision by the Red Cross, but because a conscientious US soldier saw some of these photographs and reported them to his commanding officer. Geneva conventions are all well and good, but their occasional inspections might not have uncovered this kind of abuse for years--if ever.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 06:48   #14
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
I found this to be a fairly odd case of synchonicity, because I was just reading the CIA torture manual last night for completely unrelated reasons.

Anyway, this is obviously a complete one-off and those involved should be harshly punished so it never happens again.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 08:41   #15
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
I can't believe they thought they'd get away with it.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 10:03   #16
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
I saw Bush's speech on telly this morning, and was it just me or was he VERY nervous and even stuttering?
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Unread 1 May 2004, 10:12   #17
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
On a sidenote, I get the impression that quite a lot of people seem to be quite happy about this (in an "excuse to hate america" way).
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Unread 1 May 2004, 10:24   #18
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
On a sidenote, I get the impression that quite a lot of people seem to be quite happy about this (in an "excuse to hate america" way).
I think it's more of an "I told you so"-effect.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 10:26   #19
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Why did they take photos of it?
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Unread 1 May 2004, 10:37   #20
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
I think it's more of an "I told you so"-effect.
I used to think that, but now I believe that it goes deeper.

If someone is bullying me at work, then I'm going to hate him, and I would be fully justified in doing so. Since I dislike him, I might invent new reasons to hate him, so that I can rationalize an increase of my animosity towards him (ie I might pick out his big nose, or his womanizing, or whatever). The point is that I will actually go out of my way to find things that I dont like about him, and as such I will dislike him more and more as I do so. After some time, I will probably have concoted a whole fantasy land where he is the most evil man in the world. However, even though a lot of my reasons for disliking him are now irrational, there is still an actual 'real' reason why I dislike him (ie, he initially bullied me). Even though I have now built up a complex web of lies, it still manages to touch reality at this key point in the centre. However if all my conscious reasons for my hatred are purely rationalizations, then we have.a slightly different scenario, and my web of lies is now completely detached from any concrete space-time experiences. In this case, the true reason for my hatred most likely stems from my subconscious value judgements, rather than any specific fact of reality.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 11:10   #21
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I used to think that, but now I believe that it goes deeper.

If someone is bullying me at work, then I'm going to hate him, and I would be fully justified in doing so. Since I dislike him, I might invent new reasons to hate him, so that I can rationalize an increase of my animosity towards him (ie I might pick out his big nose, or his womanizing, or whatever). The point is that I will actually go out of my way to find things that I dont like about him, and as such I will dislike him more and more as I do so. After some time, I will probably have concoted a whole fantasy land where he is the most evil man in the world. However, even though a lot of my reasons for disliking him are now irrational, there is still an actual 'real' reason why I dislike him (ie, he initially bullied me). Even though I have now built up a complex web of lies, it still manages to touch reality at this key point in the centre. However if all my conscious reasons for my hatred are purely rationalizations, then we have.a slightly different scenario, and my web of lies is now completely detached from any concrete space-time experiences. In this case, the true reason for my hatred most likely stems from my subconscious value judgements, rather than any specific fact of reality.
So you're saying that all the attention this whole incident receives from the media is based on the made-up hatred of people and media against the Americans and their invasion. Therefore the manner in which the incident is portrayed is irrational and biased against America.
It has a point if it wasn't for the American administration portraying themselves as the saviours of the Iraqi people and the upholders of the ultimate freedom. For at that point you can EXPECT these "beliefs" to backfire immensely if something like this, against all these socalled "beliefs", happens.

I tend to agree that this kind of media attention might be caused by irrational hatred against America, but we should also notice that this might be a direct effect of the US continuesly portraying themselves as the ultimate good in the world.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 11:22   #22
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
So you're saying that all the attention this whole incident receives from the media is based on the made-up hatred of people and media against the Americans and their invasion. Therefore the manner in which the incident is portrayed is irrational and biased against America.
No, I'm saying that the reason people are happy about this incident is because it provides another rationalization for their hatred of America. The man at work has now slept with the cashier I liked.

Quote:
It has a point if it wasn't for the American administration portraying themselves as the saviours of the Iraqi people and the upholders of the ultimate freedom. For at that point you can EXPECT these "beliefs" to backfire immensely if something like this, against all these socalled "beliefs", happens.
Nah, the people who disliked America done so long before the Iraq war/9-11.The sides have been more polarised during the last 2 years, but the lines were drawn a long time ago.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 11:27   #23
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I used to think that, but now I believe that it goes deeper.

If someone is bullying me at work, then I'm going to hate him, and I would be fully justified in doing so. Since I dislike him, I might invent new reasons to hate him, so that I can rationalize an increase of my animosity towards him (ie I might pick out his big nose, or his womanizing, or whatever). The point is that I will actually go out of my way to find things that I dont like about him, and as such I will dislike him more and more as I do so. After some time, I will probably have concoted a whole fantasy land where he is the most evil man in the world. However, even though a lot of my reasons for disliking him are now irrational, there is still an actual 'real' reason why I dislike him (ie, he initially bullied me). Even though I have now built up a complex web of lies, it still manages to touch reality at this key point in the centre. However if all my conscious reasons for my hatred are purely rationalizations, then we have.a slightly different scenario, and my web of lies is now completely detached from any concrete space-time experiences. In this case, the true reason for my hatred most likely stems from my subconscious value judgements, rather than any specific fact of reality.
hey suddenly i make sense.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 11:49   #24
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
If someone is bullying me at work, then I'm going to hate him, and I would be fully justified in doing so.
No you wouldn't. You shouldn't hate anyone.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 11:52   #25
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
but bullies arent nice people
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Unread 1 May 2004, 12:14   #26
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
I heard about this kind of stuff months ago. During the Afghanistan conflict too. So it's hardly surprising that we now have evidence.

Nobody gave a shit when we didn't have evidence and I doubt whether much will change now.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 13:02   #27
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
That soldier who claimed that some of his fellow soldiers were abusing Iraqis just disqualified himself from the presidency in 2036.

He should be ashamed of himself, and punished thoroughly.

PS: For the chiquita in charge there they're considering a variety of punishments, from blocking her next promotion, to transferring her to a different post, to sending her a stern letter of disapproval. Very old testament/wrath of god kinda stuff.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 13:08   #28
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
british soldiers too!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews...name_page.html
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Unread 1 May 2004, 14:38   #29
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_dastardley_chihuahua
Pretty sure Imentioned that about 13 hours before you....
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Unread 1 May 2004, 14:47   #30
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Exclamation Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
I saw Bush's speech on telly this morning, and was it just me or was he VERY nervous and even stuttering?
He's always like that. The man has no public speaking skills whatsoever. Watching him side-by-side with someone who can actually speak in public (e.g., Tony Blair) is downright painful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Why did they take photos of it?
Clearly, they're idiots. :/
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Unread 1 May 2004, 15:35   #31
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
reassures me that my hatred of the military and its personal is justified. I couldn't give a shit if our troops ended up in body bags
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Unread 1 May 2004, 15:40   #32
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
If they got any information out of them that saved just one British\American\Australian soldiers life, then it was worth it. If on the other hand they were just doing for laughs then they should be taken round the back and shot.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 15:43   #33
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
british and american soliders lives arent worth saving for that kind of cost, it only implies that the british or american solider are worth more than an iraqi solider (in human terms). They are NOT.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 15:44   #34
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
When in Rome.......

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Unread 1 May 2004, 15:45   #35
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
the americans "tortured people"
the brits "possibly tortured people"

i see "double standards"
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Unread 1 May 2004, 15:48   #36
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zar
british and american soliders lives arent worth saving for that kind of cost, it only implies that the british or american solider are worth more than an iraqi solider (in human terms). They are NOT.
That's right. The guy you trained with is not as worthy as the bloke on the other side with a gun pointing at you.......

Twat

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Unread 1 May 2004, 15:51   #37
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
That's right. The guy you trained with is not as worthy as the bloke on the other side with a gun pointing at you.......

Twat

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i didnt train with any british solider, so in my eyes they arent worth more. It was my opinion, thus my eyes.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 15:53   #38
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Lucky no-one takes your opinions seriously then

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Unread 1 May 2004, 15:54   #39
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
Lucky no-one takes your opinions seriously then

Vaio
A few people do - and thats all that really matters.

I don't value opinions from chimpanzees. Sorry vaio
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Unread 1 May 2004, 16:00   #40
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
What, not even your parents ?

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Unread 1 May 2004, 16:01   #41
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
put people in a position of absolute power without any checks and things like this happen, especially if those soldiers get more and more frustrated.

ofc, it wont help them to 'win their hearts' or anything.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 17:57   #42
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
hey did they release the names of the american soldiers involved? or what unit they were with? i can't help but worry that one of my friends was involved...
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Unread 1 May 2004, 18:22   #43
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
hey did they release the names of the american soldiers involved? or what unit they were with? i can't help but worry that one of my friends was involved...
It was the 800th Military Police Brigade (part of the 77th Regional Support Command), under the command of Brigadier General Janis Karpinski.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 18:34   #44
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
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It was the 800th Military Police Brigade (part of the 77th Regional Support Command), under the command of Brigadier General Janis Karpinski.
my friend is air force. not sure where MPs draw from. Army only?
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Unread 1 May 2004, 18:36   #45
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
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Originally Posted by Jammers
If they got any information out of them that saved just one British\American\Australian soldiers life, then it was worth it.

You know what's funny? I was just reading the biography of Felix Dzerzhinsky, founder and first head of the KGB, and he used almost that EXACT same line to justify the excesses his agency performed in the defence of the state. What a coincidence I tell you.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 18:37   #46
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
vaio in 'contempt for iraqi life' shocker.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 18:58   #47
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
my friend is air force. not sure where MPs draw from. Army only?
It's an Army Brigade.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 19:09   #48
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
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Originally Posted by Nodrog
On a sidenote, I get the impression that quite a lot of people seem to be quite happy about this (in an "excuse to hate america" way).
Well, when atrocities are brought to light (of any kind) it's generally considered 'a good thing', irrespective of the original act being heinous or not. It's not like people being tortured in secret is somehow better.

But yeah, you're right, people basically see this as reinforcing their world view. Most people don't necessarily understand the relatively complicated geopolitics behind military adventurism and so when there was action they disproved of put it down to moral failings of either just the US Government (e.g. "GWB is evil!!!") or America as a whole. Therefore when they hear that people they presumed were "evil" are doing something like this it all seems to fit.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 20:15   #49
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
p.s. Does anyone know why two (I presume) seperate instances of torture happened to be brought to light at the same time? Or was it the same facility with British / American command? I haven't had time to read up on this yet, just seemed a little odd.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 20:28   #50
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Re: Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
p.s. Does anyone know why two (I presume) seperate instances of torture happened to be brought to light at the same time? Or was it the same facility with British / American command? I haven't had time to read up on this yet, just seemed a little odd.
because any talk of torture was probably surpressed before. Now that one is in the light, it became easier to reveal the other incidents..
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