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Unread 28 Jul 2009, 22:39   #1
Patrikc
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Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

Not much to explain, I think it'd be another deterrent for newbbashing.
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Unread 29 Jul 2009, 02:39   #2
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

I've argued for negative XP for a long time, Cin and appoco seem to be against it for some reason, not sure why.
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Unread 29 Jul 2009, 02:48   #3
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
I've argued for negative XP for a long time, Cin and appoco seem to be against it for some reason, not sure why.
that's not exactly true, i've even stated i've wanted negative XP.
problem is that i'm pretty sure there's gonna be ways to exploit this to some kind of advantage, which means we'll be creating new problems.

With the current formulaes etc, a negative xp would mean you'd have a lower score than value and there's formulaes using score to calc gains etc.
Like with the salvage formula the score modifier is using your planet score to calc the salvage, and with negative xp you would be "artificially" lowering your score...
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Unread 29 Jul 2009, 03:13   #4
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

You'd be able to keep or get your bash limit lower by continuing to bash...
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Unread 29 Jul 2009, 09:17   #5
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
I've argued for negative XP for a long time, Cin and appoco seem to be against it for some reason, not sure why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnatus View Post
that's not exactly true, i've even stated i've wanted negative XP.
[...]
Err, guys, as much as I like your idea of encouraging bigger targets, having negative XP is not the way to go. Why on earth do you want to have any player's score removed? If it's just about giving incentive, there are lots of ways now to protect the smaller planets, ranging from bash limit over tweaking the xp formula on to value-based capping.

I am very much in favour of using those three tools available to make it absolutely non-profitable to hit too small targets, but don't just introduce another way of demotivating people. After all, a main reason for demotivation in games is losing something you achieved. Take a look at the recent development and you will notice that (apart from the hardcore games) there's no successful game that actually punishes a player in terms of taking something away from him.

Alas, do not introduce negative xp (or xp subtraction). Here's some old discussion I held about why removing score is bad.
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Unread 29 Jul 2009, 10:54   #6
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

The bash limit and lower roid capping are enough. There is no reason for making too many targets impossible to hit just because they're not good enough, not active enough or not careful enough.
What i'd like to see is more possibilities to fight bigger targets without using massive team ups (which is another form of bashing).
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Unread 29 Jul 2009, 17:53   #7
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

For starters, I never meant negative XP to be implemented, just the substraction of your current XP (thus a minimum XP of 0).

Secondly, the new roid capping formula has had 0 effect on me personally this round. If I'd see a target with 500+ roids that I could (easily) hit, I wouldn't care if I got 125 or 75 roids from it, it's still an easy attack.

Lastly, I agree with you Heartless that there are many ways that would be better to 'help' the newer players. I just thought this'd be a nice addition which wouldn't be too hard to implement.


PS. as for the salvage and roidcapping formula, I've always thought it'd be better to have both value AND score in the formula, rather than just score.
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Unread 29 Jul 2009, 19:14   #8
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

I'm totally pro having my score reduced so I can continue to bash newbies and get insanely fat while I hide resources in the gal fund. If my XP won't go below zero it won't make much odds, as my value will eventually be so high it doesn't matter. While we're at it, can we have the gal fund's capacity and donation limits increased please!
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Unread 29 Jul 2009, 20:52   #9
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by ellonweb View Post
so I can continue to bash newbies and get insanely fat
'continue' is right. :P
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Unread 30 Jul 2009, 10:07   #10
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
For starters, I never meant negative XP to be implemented, just the substraction of your current XP (thus a minimum XP of 0).
Yeah but I was mainly refering to the whole concept of removing something that was achieved, so even going down to 1 xp to 0 xp is too much already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Secondly, the new roid capping formula has had 0 effect on me personally this round. If I'd see a target with 500+ roids that I could (easily) hit, I wouldn't care if I got 125 or 75 roids from it, it's still an easy attack.
Which is why people like mz and me advocated for the original balancing of the value capping, and not for the softened up version that was then instantiated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Lastly, I agree with you Heartless that there are many ways that would be better to 'help' the newer players. I just thought this'd be a nice addition which wouldn't be too hard to implement.
Not hard to implement, no, I do very much agree on that. But then again you can have as many tools as you want, but if you are too stupid to use them properly they are all going to be useless or causing more harm than good.

Quote:
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PS. as for the salvage and roidcapping formula, I've always thought it'd be better to have both value AND score in the formula, rather than just score.
To quote the manual: "Score = XP*60 + Value" So salvage is using both.
Also, capping is not using score at all, rather value.

I do agree that there's an inconsistency and we should probably re-evaluate if those formulae might be rewritten to use value only or score only. But that is a different topic I guess.
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Unread 30 Jul 2009, 10:26   #11
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Which is why people like mz and me advocated for the original balancing of the value capping, and not for the softened up version that was then instantiated.
It's a little offtopic, but since we're all trying to achieve the same here (less newbie bashing), I figure it's worth mentioning: I am 9:1:8. I am in a galaxy ranked 84th. Of my 13 galmates, I have seen exactly 1 on IRC since I exiled in, at tick 120 (namely, Heartless), despite the improved Com Unit. I have never had more than 150 roids.

I have had 19 incomings this round. I haven't kept track, but I am pretty sure at least 15 of those incomings came from planets between 3 and 6 times my value, usually at the higher end of the spectrum. The same is true for the rest of my galaxy. That shit is flat out ridiculous.

It's anectotal evidence, I know, but it does tell me that Heartless is probably right; if people will hit tiny targets, even if they only get 10-15 roids, then the capping formula is too soft.
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Unread 30 Jul 2009, 16:52   #12
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
To quote the manual: "Score = XP*60 + Value" So salvage is using both.
Also, capping is not using score at all, rather value.
Erm yea I mixed 'em up, I meant value+score instead of just value (for the roidcapping part).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellonweb
I'm totally pro having my score reduced so I can continue to bash newbies and get insanely fat while I hide resources in the gal fund.
I doubt you've ever hit someone this round that you could only hit due to his score and not value (before you spent res), so it has very little to do with my suggestion.

Edit: While I somewhat agree with you mz, that the formula is too soft on the newbies, it makes it really hard for someone big (say, top 50) if he's roided to get his roids back again if the formula was tuned up. It'll be hard on the 'good roiders' in lower ranked alliances.

Though, making the fight for a top spot harder may not even be that bad a change. The top 500 would probably be closer together (bar the ~25 defwhores that never get roided anyway), and the newbies would benefit from it hugely.

I don't see a problem with raising the bashlimit to 50% (value), with roidcap on a 50% value target being 10%, going up to 25% on same value targets.

Last edited by Patrikc; 30 Jul 2009 at 17:13.
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Unread 30 Jul 2009, 17:48   #13
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Edit: While I somewhat agree with you mz, that the formula is too soft on the newbies, it makes it really hard for someone big (say, top 50) if he's roided to get his roids back again if the formula was tuned up. It'll be hard on the 'good roiders' in lower ranked alliances.

Though, making the fight for a top spot harder may not even be that bad a change. The top 500 would probably be closer together (bar the ~25 defwhores that never get roided anyway), and the newbies would benefit from it hugely.
I have no problem with people in lower ranked alliances being "punished" for performing too well for their support system to handle. If you want to do well in this game, you should be in a top5 alliance. If you just want to muck about a bit (which should definitely also be possible!), you shouldn't be surprised you get roided a bit more often. If you join an alliance that primarily mucks about, you shouldn't be surprised that this costs you value and roids. The people that I'm trying to protect are not the people in alliances like Hidden Agenda and ASS, but the people who haven't even reached that stage yet.

As for defwhoring for the top spot, I think it's detrimental for the rest of the players, because they are often left without defence. However, I don't think it's bad for the game, nor that it should be up to the game designer to tell people what to do with their own planet. Why? Because everyone who sends defence to a top planet does this completely voluntarily. No one can make you send your fleet anywhere, you have to fill in the coordinates, you have to press the button. As such, there is a very simple solution: stop sending them disproportionate amounts of defence.

But the thing is, many people don't mind being defwhores, sacrificing themselves and others for someone else's top spot. Personally, I think it's a bit silly, but hey, if it makes people happy, who am I to say no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
I don't see a problem with raising the bashlimit to 50% (value), with roidcap on a 50% value target being 10%, going up to 25% on same value targets.
The beauty of a well balanced cap formula is that it doesn't restrict choice, like the bash limit does. You can still roid a planet a 20th your size, but if the ROI is too low, people will choose to hit higher up the food chain.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 30 Jul 2009 at 17:57.
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Unread 30 Jul 2009, 18:11   #14
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Erm yea I mixed 'em up, I meant value+score instead of just value (for the roidcapping part).
I am not quite sure if I would agree to that, since there is a fundamental difference between value and score, and how both get generated. If you consider score instead of value for roid capping, then you start punishing those people which manage to roid successfully with small fleets, as those generate higher xp.

What you want from reducing capping is that you reduce the Return-On-Investment you get from attacking. Investment is the fleet value you have. The return value is the fleet value that you can gain from the captured roids until the end of the round. Usually, success of an attack is decided by size of the fleet, alas a planet's value. Not by a planet's XP, since XP does only indicate a planet's activity within the game, but not his ability to actually defend / attack. Planets with low value need roids to grow more fleet while planets with high value already have a lot of fleet. The amount of roids determines how fast you can grow fleet. Therefore you must offer a bit more protection to those small value planets if you want them to be able to keep up with the growth of the bigger players.
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Unread 30 Jul 2009, 18:32   #15
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
I doubt you've ever hit someone this round that you could only hit due to his score and not value (before you spent res), so it has very little to do with my suggestion.
Though not the majority, there were quite a few
Anyways, a discussion of my horrible tactics this round is off topic, sorry for the derailment!
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Unread 30 Jul 2009, 21:22   #16
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
The beauty of a well balanced cap formula is that it doesn't restrict choice, like the bash limit does. You can still roid a planet a 20th your size, but if the ROI is too low, people will choose to hit higher up the food chain.
Totally unrelated, really, but worth noting imo is that without a bash limits Ziks will farm ships all round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellonweb
Though not the majority, there were quite a few.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
What you want from reducing capping is that you reduce the Return-On-Investment you get from attacking.
A very good point you make, one that I hadn't thought of yet. And well explained too, ty. ^^


So, correct me if I'm wrong but we're agreeing here that an even heavier value based capping formula would be an improvement to the game? So far I see no real downsides to it, but given the amount of bitching everyone gave at the initial reintroduction of the reduced cap, I'm not quite sure how the rest of the community would react.

(most likely the same as always, "omg this is it i quit!..........." *signs up anyway*)
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Unread 31 Jul 2009, 05:15   #17
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Totally unrelated, really, but worth noting imo is that without a bash limits Ziks will farm ships all round.
You're totally right, I am not advocating removing the bash limit, unless we can think of something to make ship farming unprofitable.
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Unread 31 Jul 2009, 09:33   #18
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
A very good point you make, one that I hadn't thought of yet. And well explained too, ty. ^^


So, correct me if I'm wrong but we're agreeing here that an even heavier value based capping formula would be an improvement to the game? So far I see no real downsides to it, but given the amount of bitching everyone gave at the initial reintroduction of the reduced cap, I'm not quite sure how the rest of the community would react.

(most likely the same as always, "omg this is it i quit!..........." *signs up anyway*)
For one, Game Design is not a democratic process. Sure, you should listen to what your players say and evaluate it carefully, but they should not dictate your game mechanics. Problem with Planetarion, however, is here that neither Cin nor Appoco have the slightest clue about how this game works and how to do game design, so being very vocal on the forums can get you something you are looking for.
On the other hand, it's also that Pete should re-evaluate PA's target audience. I have to say that I am surprised that this game is still running (I cannot picture it generating any decent amount of revenue), since the audience this game seems to cater at the moment is only a tiny friction of what could be possible, if it would finally drop some of its grumpy old person flair and jump up on the social networking bandwagon.

Then again those things have been said time and time again, nothing has really changed since then (oh, a new owner, but even Pete is obviously having no real interest in this game). Oh and of course this is hilariously off-topic.
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Unread 31 Jul 2009, 09:52   #19
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Then again those things have been said time and time again, nothing has really changed since then (oh, a new owner, but even Pete is obviously having no real interest in this game). Oh and of course this is hilariously off-topic.
The only way less interest could be shown would be for me to buy the game, which I'm damn well not going to do. But if I did, I'd totally let it die a slow and agonising death.
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Unread 31 Jul 2009, 10:55   #20
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

Attacking is supposed to be fun and rewarding. It's the only thing you do in this game. Scanning for vulnerable targets, sending your fleet out for a day and getting rewarded by some nice spoils. You shouldn't want to ruin that.

It would be better to just make it easier for tiny planets to recover faster from those attacks. I would suggest sending juggernaught-class ships to the victim 12 hours after his fleet and planet has been 'bashed'. Very slow capital ships, with a huge defensive bonus and a large resistance against stuns. Ships that are sure to take out a decent portion of the next attackers fleet, making the planet an unappealing target. This way small planets can come back into the game with a vengeance.

Imagine the hilarity. Now that would be a fun implementation.
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Unread 31 Jul 2009, 11:34   #21
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by Alessio View Post
Attacking is supposed to be fun and rewarding. It's the only thing you do in this game. Scanning for vulnerable targets, sending your fleet out for a day and getting rewarded by some nice spoils. You shouldn't want to ruin that.
That's the main cause why this game is utterly boring. There is only one way to succeed, too one-dimensional. That should be addressed instead of allowing newbie bashing.

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It would be better to just make it easier for tiny planets to recover faster from those attacks. I would suggest sending juggernaught-class ships to the victim 12 hours after his fleet and planet has been 'bashed'. Very slow capital ships, with a huge defensive bonus and a large resistance against stuns. Ships that are sure to take out a decent portion of the next attackers fleet, making the planet an unappealing target. This way small planets can come back into the game with a vengeance.

Imagine the hilarity. Now that would be a fun implementation.
Sounds like an interesting idea, you might want to start a thread to elaborate more on this.
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Unread 31 Jul 2009, 12:01   #22
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by Alessio View Post
It would be better to just make it easier for tiny planets to recover faster from those attacks.
That's a false dichotomy, there's no reason we can't do both.

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Originally Posted by Alessio View Post
I would suggest sending juggernaught-class ships to the victim 12 hours after his fleet and planet has been 'bashed'. Very slow capital ships, with a huge defensive bonus and a large resistance against stuns. Ships that are sure to take out a decent portion of the next attackers fleet, making the planet an unappealing target. This way small planets can come back into the game with a vengeance.

Imagine the hilarity. Now that would be a fun implementation.
I have long had massive objections to the idea of superships, but this does sound like an interesting way to implement it. Karma, one might say. You'd need some limitations to make sure only newbies got this advantage, though (attacker:defender value ratio would be a good start), and not allow them to use these ships to attack (Oh god, did mz just advocate in favour of PDS!? Yes.).
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Unread 1 Aug 2009, 14:18   #23
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

I've got an old post somewhere about reintroducing PDS of some sort (with limitations) or more specificially, two ways to play a planet.

You'd have two options when signing up. One would be the normal accounts as they are now, the other would be a more 'defensive' type with increased salvage, perhaps a sleep mode or some such, and fairly tough PDS. This would come at the cost of a fleet slot. Idea being, you get a less steep learning curve with plenty of margin for error, a sort of introductory account, or even something for casual players.

I'll have to go dig up the thread on the Dev forum later on.


As for "negative xp", NO for all the reasons Heartless/mz covered nicely above. A more intuitive cap formula would be far more useful, and make more sense.
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Unread 1 Aug 2009, 14:53   #24
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

The problem I have with "proper" PDS (as in, ships that can't launch) is that players can easily get stuck in a SimPlanet rut. What I like about Alessio's proposal is that you don't have to worry about the capital ships; you get them for "free", and after a certain time they leave.
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Unread 20 Aug 2009, 05:26   #25
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

I would like XP turned in to money or gains in battle field, when good XP actually helps you and aint just an addon to your score.

XP is a best thing curently to support attacking on bigger targets so doesnt hurt to develope the feature further.

And any morons disagreeing. XP is the only thing the million PA-copies havent made up, which are most far more advanced with features than the mother game itself. XP is the best thing PA has.

I have suggested it before, but spm had a best system regarding this topic.

Make a fleet moral that reduces on each launch on minors. When your moral gets too low the captains refuse to launch or you could even lose part of your fleet while traveling, sort of mutinity.

Any measure to prevent people from noob roiding/bashing, I will back up. Even if it would be the negative xp count.
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Unread 20 Aug 2009, 06:12   #26
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

I would remove the bash limit, and just lower th capping to 0 roid instead. This way you can attack a lowbie attacking you, you can't steal his roids but you can destroy his structures and FC him. No reason why being a lowbie should grant immunity, especially when being a lowbie has now become a strategy: you can't be hit but you can massively teamup to attack a big guy...
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Unread 20 Aug 2009, 06:57   #27
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
I would remove the bash limit, and just lower th capping to 0 roid instead. This way you can attack a lowbie attacking you, you can't steal his roids but you can destroy his structures and FC him. No reason why being a lowbie should grant immunity
Oh, except maybe that we want them to stay around for longer than 100 ticks.

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especially when being a lowbie has now become a strategy: you can't be hit but you can massively teamup to attack a big guy...
What? Utter ****ing bullshit. Are you even playing the same game we are? Here's a hint: no more prod hiding.
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Unread 20 Aug 2009, 09:29   #28
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

Someone below your bash limit at tick 100 is not a lowbie, he's an inactive...
You don't need to hide prod to stay small, I've seen people hiding their res in the gal fund.
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Unread 20 Aug 2009, 12:41   #29
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
100 ticks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
at tick 100
Notice how these are not the same.
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Unread 20 Aug 2009, 12:53   #30
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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You don't need to hide prod to stay small, I've seen people hiding their res in the gal fund.
Sounds like causing trouble to the vast majority of inactives in order to hit a very few late starts who hide res in the gal fund.
I definitely dont want the lowbies to be zik ship farms.
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Unread 20 Aug 2009, 19:18   #31
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Sounds like causing trouble to the vast majority of inactives in order to hit a very few late starts who hide res in the gal fund.
I definitely dont want the lowbies to be zik ship farms.
i found humour in people doing that last round. people who had just had a crap start were being defended against by the admins in 1:1, but the late sign ups with boatloads of res in the gal fund were being able to land with super weak fleets. then you attack the other person and they have a 100m+ prod going. kudos for finding a work around to the mechanic though. seems more people want to exploit stuff now-a-days than to see things implemented properly.

and yes makhil, you don't want the lower players to become ship farms. there are points during the game where (for steal races) capping ships is waaaay more beneficial than capping roids.
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Unread 20 Aug 2009, 20:30   #32
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

On a sidenote, the galfund can contain at most 75m resources (for 872k value). While this is definitely not insignificant, the strategy has two serious flaws:
1) It only works in decent galaxies, because as soon as you go over average galaxy score (easy if you get escorted), you lose 872k potential value.
2) It only works well for one planet in each galaxy. Two planets can hide 436k each, which is much less problematic.

In my opinion, the strategy limits itself to the top30 galaxies (and that's a high estimate), or a whopping 30 planets. Out of a total of 1500.

Consider that, previously, pretty much every top200 planet had something to gain by hiding value in production (and at some point in the round, probably did). The situation we're in now is is a vast improvement over the situation in previous rounds, to the point that I don't even think it's a problem at all. And it most definitely hasn't "now become" a problem.
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Unread 16 Sep 2009, 11:48   #33
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

Hmmm, first thoughts are these...

XP could be removed from the score calc and used directly where it will hurt you... in the wallet.

The more you bash (XP reduction) the less effective your roids become (the roids you captured by bashing are actually damaged, the bigger the bash the bigger the damage).

Although the term XP would be renamed...

I don't think that there is any perfect way to stop bashing, after all stronger beats weaker in the real world.

Perhaps XP is to easy to get.

There has to be a negative effect on the aftermath of a bash, trying to prevent bashing isn't the key. It also means that it only effects the player bashing, otherwise it will most likely be exploitable by another player.

Idea 2
Just have a bash status, which cannot be increased.
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Unread 16 Sep 2009, 13:28   #34
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
Hmmm, first thoughts are these...

XP could be removed from the score calc and used directly where it will hurt you... in the wallet.

The more you bash (XP reduction) the less effective your roids become (the roids you captured by bashing are actually damaged, the bigger the bash the bigger the damage).
It has been mentioned before, and I gladly repeat it:

Do NOT remove XP. One point that has not been mention about removing XP is so obvious noone noticed.
People have talked about how hard decreasing cap for hitting downwards can make it for large planets to regain roids after even losing just a single wave.
If you reduce XP for hitting downwards, you´ll basically make the top planet(s) lose score with every attack they fly.
That would be just insane.
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Unread 16 Sep 2009, 16:54   #35
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

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XP could be removed from the score calc and used directly where it will hurt you...
And reintroduce the focus on value only for ranking, eliminating smart usage of fleets from the outcome of your round? Just no, really, just no.

Especially since there is no reason for having yet another tool for reducing the amount of bashing going on.
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Unread 16 Sep 2009, 18:37   #36
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

We could do with an improvement of the one we already have, though.
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Unread 16 Sep 2009, 22:15   #37
ellonweb
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

It could be argued that bashing is a vital part of the economy in the game, and over-limiting that would be bad.
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Unread 17 Sep 2009, 11:09   #38
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Re: Substract XP for hitting smaller targets

Bashing shouldn´t be a vital part of a game. Hitting downwards should not and can not be completely forbidden, as it would punish large planets for performing well. Also, there are enough reasons why smaller planets deserve to by farmed dry - for example ex-biggies who crashed etc.
The question is, once again, how much hitting downwards should be limited. Bashing smallies is not good for the game overall, but people will always go for the small fishes as low as it goes. Reducing the cap depending on the value ratio is a good element to approach the problem. The bash limit is useful as well, even though I´ve seen many planets fishing at the lowest end of their attack range, getting the feeling the bash limit appears to be way too high still. I basically agree with mz though, lowering the ROI is better than reducing the overall number of targets.
Obviously, giving incentives and means to hit larger planets is probably better than restricting people from hitting smaller targets. One can´t solve this problem by making the stats more offensive though, that would only profit the def whores - small planets usually can´t rely on a nice and large def pool at all.
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