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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 18:56   #1
Hebdomad
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Litvinenko, again

Do tell me what you think, but aren't the expulsions of Russian diplomats a little bizarre?

The Litvinenko case was huge at the time, but has it really taken this long to "get tough on Russia?" And now the European Commission backs the UK's position, keen to show European unity. I ask this because I'm pondering whether the US has convinced the Foreign Office to take this particular line so as to ostracise Russia from Europe.

Just at the time when East European missile sites become particularly important for the US.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 22:09   #2
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Doubt it. It presumably just takes this long for all the other steps to be exhausted first. Kicking out diplomats, even intelligence officers, is reasonably serious in terms of international relations.

Of course once this happened Europe was bound to show solidarity and America were always going to try and use it to their advantage. That's just politics.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 22:50   #3
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Re: Litvinenko, again

It is also serious when they launch a nuclear bomber on a course which happens to be close to Britain.

Obviously they had no intention of actually nuking us but Putin is going back to the Cold War days when they did it all the time to show just how pissed off they were at each other.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 22:52   #4
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Expelling diplomats (and it will be the intelligence officers at the embassy) is a standard procedure as far as diplomatic sanctions go.

It's been sparked by Russia refusing to extradite Andrei Lugovoi, so that answers your question of why it's come to the fore.

And just to note - it's the European Union that's backing Britain, not the European Commission. In fact, the European Commission has no powers regarding foreign policy.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 00:48   #5
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Seems fairly standard to me even timescale wise. How anyone can have any sympathy for Russia and their bullying makes me
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 02:07   #6
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Re: Litvinenko, again

It merely strikes me as a little odd. Russia refused to cooperate with the UK investigation ages ago, it all died down, but now it suddenly becomes an issue again at a time when the US needs Europe to either prefer them or further dislike Russia.

I can't really estimate a standard timescale because I do not know of a similar incident. Please inform me of a (reasonably) similar case if possible.

Last edited by Hebdomad; 20 Jul 2007 at 02:12.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 10:50   #7
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
It merely strikes me as a little odd. Russia refused to cooperate with the UK investigation ages ago, it all died down, but now it suddenly becomes an issue again at a time when the US needs Europe to either prefer them or further dislike Russia.
only it didn't die down, it just stopped having immediacy for a while. This is the result of police findings coming to a conclusion and diplomatic avenues more or less exhausting themselves until no easy solution could be found. And if Russia is murdering people on our soil it's a pretty ****ing big deal, you know.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 10:52   #8
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
It merely strikes me as a little odd. Russia refused to cooperate with the UK investigation ages ago, it all died down, but now it suddenly becomes an issue again at a time when the US needs Europe to either prefer them or further dislike Russia.

I can't really estimate a standard timescale because I do not know of a similar incident. Please inform me of a (reasonably) similar case if possible.
Surely the burden of evidence is on you to show that the UK held back for political reasons rather than for us to show you that 9 months is a fairly reasonable timescale for this sort of thing.

It never “died down”, he was killed in November, the UK police conducted their investigation and referred the case to the CPS in February, the UK asked for extradition in June, UK then spends two weeks mulling over which response to make. That to me seems to me like a fairly reasonable timescale. The evidence took some time to collect, it would have taken the CPS some time to review the evidence and make a decision. Once the decision had been made there would have then been political decisions to be made about whether to go ahead, the response to a refusal was almost certainly decided during this period and there’d have been a ton on back channel diplomacy to feel out the reaction.

The US needs no help ostrsizing Russia from Europe they’ve done that all by themselves. If the US had really wanted to pursue that course of action the correct moment would have been over Estonia last month instead of everyone staying quiet and allowing Russia free reign. The UK has made the right move, we tried to legally extradite someone who’s suspected of murder. Russia couldn’t legally extradite him back which is fair enough but the matter couldn’t be left there with Russia basically being able to murder whoever they want in London. Expelling intelligence officers was the right move it’s a pity we can’t do more like get everyone to stop buying their oil.

Also your suggestion about missile defence is silly, in fact the whole row over missile defence is ridiculous, a few interceptors in Eastern Europe is hardly a threat to Russia’s 25,000 nuclear weapons. The row about missile defence basically boils down to Russia wanting to bully its neighbours. This is probably the most important time for the EU and US to stand shoulder to shoulder since the end of the cold war.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 10:58   #9
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Under the European Convention on Extradition 1957, Russia has the right to refuse the extradition of a citizen and its constitution expressly forbids extradition.

The UK has the right to request Mr Lugovoi be tried in Russia, but the UK's director of public prosecutions, Sir Ken Macdonald, has already turned down the offer.

from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6907630.stm
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 10:59   #10
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Re: Litvinenko, again

UK has given asylum or protection to various Russians and has refused around 20 times in the past extradition requests made by the Russian Government.

Now out of a sudden UK demands that Russia should extradite someone although it is strictly forbidden by their constitution.

UK needs to realise they are not a super power anymore, just a puppet state of the Americans.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 11:18   #11
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshuro
UK has given asylum or protection to various Russians and has refused around 20 times in the past extradition requests made by the Russian Government.
That's because it's clear that if they were returned home they wouldn't get a fair trial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshuro
Now out of a sudden UK demands that Russia should extradite someone although it is strictly forbidden by their constitution.
Actually, Russia offered to extradite Lugovoi if we gave them Berezovsky. Shows how important that bit of their constitution is to them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshuro
UK needs to realise they are not a super power anymore, just a puppet state of the Americans.
Don't give me this shit, it's not as if we're Poland, Bulgaria or Romania under the Soviets. The UK hasn't been a superpower since the Second World War, which was conclusively proven by Suez. No-one is attempting to say that we are...except you. Besides, Russia isn't a true superpower anymore either.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 11:34   #12
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Actually, Russia offered to extradite Lugovoi if we gave them Berezovsky. Shows how important that bit of their constitution is to them
Dude, Putin would quite happily cut off his right bollock to get his hands on Berezovsky. The man has devoted his life to slagging off Putin. He funded the 'spontanious' Orange Revolution in Ukraine and is claiming that Russia tried to have him killed to.

I wouldn't be that shocked if some Russian fighter jets entered UK airspace and tried to blow him up.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 11:48   #13
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshuro
UK has given asylum or protection to various Russians and has refused around 20 times in the past extradition requests made by the Russian Government.

Now out of a sudden UK demands that Russia should extradite someone although it is strictly forbidden by their constitution.

UK needs to realise they are not a super power anymore, just a puppet state of the Americans.
Oh it’s ok for them to come over and murder people then.

I find it fairly amusing seeing all these faux far left anti establishment kiddies going “go Russia stick it to the UK and US ! they think they can bully people !”, cheerleading a right wing dictatorship, oh the irony.

The UK doesn’t need to be a superpower, we have a club of friends in Europe, North America and the rest of the world to stand with us when we things like this happen, something the cuddly Russians seem to lack. Nor is Russia a super power, their a relative minnow, our economy is four times larger, we have a better ability to project force and their a demographic timebomb waiting to happen, the only thing they have going for them is high energy prices and a load of old nuclear weapons.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 11:49   #14
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Re: Litvinenko, again

If Putin wanted to kill Berezovsky, Im pretty sure he wouldnt just send one amateur to do the job, as Berezosky claims.

But then again, I don't see any reason to trust a criminal like Berezovsky.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 11:53   #15
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
Oh it’s ok for them to come over and murder people then.
Still if indeed they wanted to murder someone wouldn't they have made a "clean" assassination, leaving no evidence behind? With the method that was used there was plenty of room for Litvinenko to reveal a lot of information to authorities while being treated.

Anyway it is a really complex case with a lot of scenarios.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 11:53   #16
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
But then again, I don't see any reason to trust a criminal like Berezovsky.
Nor should you see any reason to trust a criminal like Putin.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 11:58   #17
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshuro
Still if indeed they wanted to murder someone wouldn't they have made a "clean" assassination, leaving no evidence behind? With the method that was used there was plenty of room for Litvinenko to reveal a lot of information to authorities while being treated.

Anyway it is a really complex case with a lot of scenarios.
Like a difficult to identify radioactive poison that will leave his death a mystery unless something goes seriously wrong

Oh wai...
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 11:58   #18
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Oh it’s ok for them to come over and murder people then.
I dont think anything he has said in that post is excusing the Russians (if they have been involved in this alleged murder).
They all look like very valid points to me, although what the hell the third has to do with any of this is debatable.

(I still agree with him though!)
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 12:01   #19
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
Oh it’s ok for them to come over and murder people then.
You think Putin ordered to killing of Litvenko?
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 12:02   #20
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Nor should you see any reason to trust a criminal like Putin.
I don't see Putin as any worse than Blair, in many ways.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 12:10   #21
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshuro
Still if indeed they wanted to murder someone wouldn't they have made a "clean" assassination, leaving no evidence behind? With the method that was used there was plenty of room for Litvinenko to reveal a lot of information to authorities while being treated.

Anyway it is a really complex case with a lot of scenarios.
You grossly over estimate the control that Putin has over his regime and the competence of anything any government does, you only have to look at the CIA’s debacles to see that. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Putin phoned up and said “I want this lad dead now”. I’m sure if Putin had wanted him dead cleanly then it would have happened like that but that doesn’t stop other elements in Russia who are close to or in the government from carrying out these sorts of things with an official nod. Also bear in mind the guy who’s wanted for the murder is hardly an amateur himself, the same applies to what Zhukov posted about Berezovsky. You also over estimate the worth of the Russian constitution, Russia has said that if they can have Berezovsky, Putin will walk Lugovoi over to the UK himself. The state that Putin has assembled, the instability, the nationalism, corruption and lack of control really are scary.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 12:46   #22
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
I don't see Putin as any worse than Blair, in many ways.
Couldnt agree more. It's not like Putin has helped America invade Iraq for oil, and lied to his people to justify it!

Im pretty sure he is capable of doing something equally shit, but we really need to give him the chance to do it before giving him the same status as our Tony.

Appalling as ordering the murder of Litvenenko would be (if it were true) it really pales in comparison to the innumerable innocent Iraqis / Afghanis that have been murdered by Britain, America and pals, not to mention their own citizens whose lives have been indirectly put at risk due to reprisals, so before going apeshit at Putin and the Russians, it might be nice to take a little step back and look at the big picture.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 13:07   #23
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
Im pretty sure he is capable of doing something equally shit, but we really need to give him the chance to do it before giving him the same status as our Tony.
Chechnya.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 14:32   #24
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
Couldnt agree more. It's not like Putin has helped America invade Iraq for oil, and lied to his people to justify it!

Im pretty sure he is capable of doing something equally shit, but we really need to give him the chance to do it before giving him the same status as our Tony.

Appalling as ordering the murder of Litvenenko would be (if it were true) it really pales in comparison to the innumerable innocent Iraqis / Afghanis that have been murdered by Britain, America and pals, not to mention their own citizens whose lives have been indirectly put at risk due to reprisals, so before going apeshit at Putin and the Russians, it might be nice to take a little step back and look at the big picture.
Don't remind him of Chechnya, the noble Russians are standing up for the poor and oppressed of the world !

Comparing Blair and Putin erodes any credibility of future posts, it’s not shocking and edgy it’s just a stupid comparison to make. Blair made one huge mistake in following George Bush into Iraq and a number of minor mistakes in terms of civil liberties. How on Earth you can compare this with Putin who invaded Chechnya, installed a brutal warlord as leader who keeps his people in check with methods that would be more than at home on the streets of Baghdad. He’s made the world unstable holding democracies in Eastern Europe to ransom over oil and gas because they won’t do as he says, he’s aimed nuclear weapons back at Europe because they won’t do as he says. He’s encouraged nationalism at home as a way to distract from the massive inequality in Russian society this in turn has fueled the growth of neo nazi skin heads who terrorise immigrants, when he’s been criticised by journalists or activities they have a nasty habit of turning up dead or being caught evading tax. Most of all though Putin has symmetrically rolled back democracy and freedom for 100 million people, he’s filled the government with his spook mates and put Russia on the road to dictatorship, Blair messing up and following Bush into a war that he genuinely believed in is what pales in comparison.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 15:19   #25
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Oh please. Deplorable as they are Putins actions in Chechyna are nowhere near on the same scale as Iraq, and to portray Blair as some sort of amiable buffoon who made a mistake is hilarious. He knew exactly what he was doing.

For what its worth, I personally wouldn't be at all surprised if the governments of Britain or America wouldnt use agents to knock off individuals who they didnt like in foreign countries (albeit Britain probably wouldnt have the balls to attempt it in Russia), even though they may do the job with a bit more discretion. Certainly they don't seem to regard similar activities undertaken by allies like Israel with as much distaste.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 15:26   #26
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Hicks, you're making some good points, but you're falling into the strawman fallacy. No-one has said the Russian government is "noble" or "go Russia stick it to the UK and US ! they think they can bully people !” or that "it’s ok for them to come over and murder people." It makes your posts a little hard to read and you could counter points easily without going down that route.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 15:29   #27
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Re: Litvinenko, again

MI6 tried to kill Gaddafi.

Even though that helps the UK verses Russia debate which I thought pointless to go down
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 15:54   #28
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
Oh please. Deplorable as they are Putins actions in Chechyna are nowhere near on the same scale as Iraq, and to portray Blair as some sort of amiable buffoon who made a mistake is hilarious. He knew exactly what he was doing.
Up to 100,000 civilians died in the Second Chechen War, it’s exactly the same scale. What exactly did he know ? Blair almost certainly thought that he was going in to get rid a dictator, establish a democracy in the heart of the Middle East and secure his legacy as a peacemaker first in Northern Ireland and then in the Middle East. He certainly didn’t think he was going to get bogged down in a blood bath and bring his time as Prime Minister to an abrupt end.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 16:18   #29
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
I don't see Putin as any worse than Blair, in many ways.
Yes. Putin is just a wonderful man. He does nothing but good for the common man. The wonders of Russian humanitarianism standing alone against those evil democracies.

Three cheers for Putin.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 16:30   #30
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda-II
Yes. Putin is just a wonderful man. He does nothing but good for the common man. The wonders of Russian humanitarianism standing alone against those evil democracies.

Three cheers for Putin.
I think he was suggesting that Blair was really bad rather than Putin was really good.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 18:01   #31
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
Oh please. Deplorable as they are Putins actions in Chechyna are nowhere near on the same scale as Iraq.
This is obviously true, but not in the sense which you apparently think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
Up to 100,000 civilians died in the Second Chechen War, it’s exactly the same scale.
what
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 18:05   #32
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Up to 100,000 civilians died in the Second Chechen War, it’s exactly the same scale.
I dont think history will care much about Chechnya, but I think people may be still getting killed, directly or indirectly as a result of Britains invasion of Iraq in a hundred years time. Thats harsh for the people of Chechnya* but there you go.

As for the rest of your last post, quite frankly I think its bollocks. I think Blair had his eyes on lucrative civil engineering contracts, and oil deals. Thats my personal view.

Don't get me wrong, Im not saying Putin is an angel, but frankly the "righteous indignation" of my fellow countrymen disgusts me. Our leaders are just as bad as Putin, just not so brazen. They are probably secretly jealous of him: I bet Bush is!

*Who as far as I can tell are mainly fundamentalist loonies like Bush and Bin Laden anyway...
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 18:06   #33
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
I dont think history will care much about Chechnya, but I think people may be still getting killed, directly or indirectly as a result of Britains invasion of Iraq in a hundred years time. Thats harsh for the people of Chechnya but there you go.
Is this thread just a contest to see who can say the stupidest things about Chechnya or something.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 18:12   #34
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Is this thread just a contest to see who can say the stupidest things about Chechnya or something.
I honestly don't think that anyone in the West gives a shit about Chechnya except when they want to take a pop at Putin, infact, isnt it the case that when Putin is being a nice chap and not knocking off British citizens Blair and Bush are bending over backwards offering their help to him in dealing with those pesky Chechen Islamists?
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 18:28   #35
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
I honestly don't think that anyone in the West gives a shit about Chechnya except when they want to take a pop at Putin, infact, isnt it the case that when Putin is being a nice chap and not knocking off British citizens Blair and Bush are bending over backwards offering their help to him in dealing with those pesky Chechen Islamists?
Probably, and since Chechnya cant be blamed on America the political left doesnt really care about it either despite it being about a million times worse than the Palestine/Iraq situations. However, none of this really has anything to do with what you quoted or the preceeding discussion.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 18:49   #36
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Probably, and since Chechnya cant be blamed on America the political left doesnt really care about it either despite it being about a million times worse than the Palestine/Iraq situations.
I find it interesting that you should say that given that you and I could quite easily die as a result of the latter, but the former doesnt affect us that much.
Perhaps a selfish attitude on my part...

Admittedly it has jack shit to do with the thread, but then again I'm not the one who brought Chechnya into the discussion in the first place.

I just feel that British posters squealing about "OMG PUTIN DOESNT RESPECT ENGLAND!" need to get more perspective!
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 20:06   #37
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Even with the possible Berezovsky/Lugovoi swap, the Foreign Office must surely know it's against the Russian constitution to extradite their own people, so I still feel the request and subsequent expulsions seem out of place. I don't disagree with them, but apart from trying to boss Russia around (which I can't imagine Putin will acquiesce to), I cannot see how this will help the situation. Therefore I doubt this is actually about Litvinenko per se.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 20:16   #38
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
I just feel that British posters squealing about "OMG PUTIN DOESNT RESPECT ENGLAND!" need to get more perspective!


I just feel that the perspective you need is that of the ground rushing up to meet you after you've jumped off a 10 storey plus building.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 22:28   #39
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Hicks, please decide if Putin has control or not. Your contradicting yourself.

Regarding Chechenya/Iraq, they are both wars in the "War against terror". If Blair can lie to the his electorate about the war for oil in Iraq, then why shouldnt Putin be "allowed" the same?

And I belive there is far "better*" excuses for the war in Chechenya than Iraq.
Saddam posed no threat to the UK. One could easily argue that chechen seperatists did for russia. Chechenya is russian territory. Iraq is far away from UK, etc etc.

*both wars are imperialistic wars when you cut the bullsh't.
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Unread 21 Jul 2007, 00:29   #40
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by You Are Gay
I just feel that the perspective you need is that of the ground rushing up to meet you after you've jumped off a 10 storey plus building.
Oh dear. Did I upset mummies special soldier on the internet with my naughty postie-wostie?
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Unread 21 Jul 2007, 03:39   #41
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
And I belive there is far "better*" excuses for the war in Chechenya than Iraq.
Saddam posed no threat to the UK. One could easily argue that chechen seperatists did for russia. Chechenya is russian territory. Iraq is far away from UK, etc etc.
When the UK decides to annex Iraq and proceeds to hold onto the region for over a century against the wishes of its people, repeatedly using violence against all seperatist movements including an incident of borderline genocide where the entire country is deported and forced into concentration camps causing around 25% of the entire ethnic population to die, followed by yet more decades of wars against seperatists each one resulting in tens of thousands of casualties, then maybe you can make a serious comparasion with Chechyna.

Last edited by Nodrog; 21 Jul 2007 at 05:31.
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Unread 21 Jul 2007, 11:07   #42
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Nodrog: we've made a damn good start.
But all of this is very much off topic.
Re. the original poster, the expulsion of the diplomats was an inevitable attempt to convince the British electorate that our government haven't just been "had" by the Russians. If it had been a small African country, Britain might actually have been able to do something constructive, as it stands, Russia is way too powerful, and we are extremely unlikely to get much in the way of help from USA either since like us, they are up to their eyeballs elsewhere.

The counter expulsion was probably initiated with much giggling!

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Unread 21 Jul 2007, 11:46   #43
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
Nodrog: we've made a damn good start.
sweet ****ing christ.
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Unread 22 Jul 2007, 18:24   #44
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
I find it interesting that you should say that given that you and I could quite easily die as a result of the latter, but the former doesnt affect us that much.
Perhaps a selfish attitude on my part...
What?

I'm really interested as to how you think any of us on here could "easily die as a result" of the Iraq/Palestine situation.
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Unread 22 Jul 2007, 18:35   #45
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Hicks, please decide if Putin has control or not. Your contradicting yourself.
Being an authoritarian ruler doesn't guarantee control.
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Unread 22 Jul 2007, 19:36   #46
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Crab, you've displayed an appalling grasp of both historical and modern politics in this thread. Most of what you have said is, I'm sorry to say, rubbish. There are standard channels for dealing with international disputes and all that has happened in this case is that they have been followed. It has happened many times in the past for many varying reasons and the point is to show strong disagreement without being openly hostile as a prelude to discussions on the matter. It is pretty formulaic and we call it diplomacy. Diplomatic posturing would be more precise.

As regards your nonsense vis-a-vis the Chechen people and their appalling situation, can I suggest that you educate yourself on the matter before dismissing their plight as unimportant. For example I read an article recently, written by Human Rights Watch, detailing systematic use of torture and brutality on prisoners that have been arrested in Chechnya by both Russian forces and their own Federal Police. Perhaps you could point to a correlation of this in Britain? The European Parliament also recently denounced the forced expulsion of many ethnic Chechens from their homes and their country as an act of genocide. Perhaps you could point to a correlation of this in Iraq?

The sad truth of the Iraqi situation is that they are killing themselves. There is no question that this was precipitated by the rash action of the American and British governments by invading in the first place and not fully appreciating the long term consequences of their actions. But the blame is far from theirs alone. When Allied forces withdraw, which in my opinion will be late this year or early next, the country will almost certainly descend into a barbaric civil war. The Turkish army has already moved 140,000 troops into theatre along the border in order to invade Kurdistan and crush the PKK. The Iranians are already supplying weapons and training to Shia factions, not only in an attempt drive out the Americans but also to ensure they have the greatest possible chance of seeing their own agenda fulfilled upon Allied withdrawal from the region. My point to all of this is that the situation in the region is a lot more complex than you seem to appreciate. The Allies are far from blameless but there is plenty of fault to be apportioned to every other faction involved in this debacle, including the Hussein regime.

The reality, ironically, is that all of them share an attitude very much like yours on Chechnya. They look only at what's in it for them. Like you they don't especially give a shit about how many people die while out shopping once their own safety and security are assured. You really should be ashamed of yourself.
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Unread 22 Jul 2007, 19:47   #47
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Putin is bad news, no doubt about that.

The rule in Russia is only going in one direction and thats hyper authoritarian.

The massing of young putin followers in large gangs demonstrating for "the leader" isnt exactly postive either imo.

Russia's strategy for using thier gas to exploit the german dependancy for gas to make a hole in the unitied EU stance against serveral of the more radical changes in Russia seems to be working and one could ask if the price of gas isnt too expensive these days.

GJ to UK for standing up to the new Russia, hopefully more countries would realise that Russia is on the border moving away too much from the democratic way.
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Unread 22 Jul 2007, 19:48   #48
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Crab, you've displayed an appalling grasp of both historical and modern politics in this thread. Most of what you have said is, I'm sorry to say, rubbish. There are standard channels for dealing with international disputes and all that has happened in this case is that they have been followed. It has happened many times in the past for many varying reasons and the point is to show strong disagreement without being openly hostile as a prelude to discussions on the matter. It is pretty formulaic and we call it diplomacy. Diplomatic posturing would be more precise.

As regards your nonsense vis-a-vis the Chechen people and their appalling situation, can I suggest that you educate yourself on the matter before dismissing their plight as unimportant. For example I read an article recently, written by Human Rights Watch, detailing systematic use of torture and brutality on prisoners that have been arrested in Chechnya by both Russian forces and their own Federal Police. Perhaps you could point to a correlation of this in Britain? The European Parliament also recently denounced the forced expulsion of many ethnic Chechens from their homes and their country as an act of genocide. Perhaps you could point to a correlation of this in Iraq?

The sad truth of the Iraqi situation is that they are killing themselves. There is no question that this was precipitated by the rash action of the American and British governments by invading in the first place and not fully appreciating the long term consequences of their actions. But the blame is far from theirs alone. When Allied forces withdraw, which in my opinion will be late this year or early next, the country will almost certainly descend into a barbaric civil war. The Turkish army has already moved 140,000 troops into theatre along the border in order to invade Kurdistan and crush the PKK. The Iranians are already supplying weapons and training to Shia factions, not only in an attempt drive out the Americans but also to ensure they have the greatest possible chance of seeing their own agenda fulfilled upon Allied withdrawal from the region. My point to all of this is that the situation in the region is a lot more complex than you seem to appreciate. The Allies are far from blameless but there is plenty of fault to be apportioned to every other faction involved in this debacle, including the Hussein regime.

The reality, ironically, is that all of them share an attitude very much like yours on Chechnya. They look only at what's in it for them. Like you they don't especially give a shit about how many people die while out shopping once their own safety and security are assured. You really should be ashamed of yourself.
that's quite an interesting description because it kind of reminds me of the battle before the creation of israel.
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 18:30   #49
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Nodrog, when you define the "serious"ness of a comparision then a valid comparison is analogous to one you agree with in whatever detail you care to go into, which is normally that point when you realise that the two events aren't exactly the same. It's not like there aren't different levels of comparison and when you're talking about the end result, dead people, it's hardly an awful comparison.

Ditto to Achilles and he proposed that others wouldn't care, not that he didn't give a damn. I can't see why he should be ashamed of his pessimistic view of other people's interests.

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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 19:03   #50
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Probably, and since Chechnya cant be blamed on America the political left doesnt really care about it either despite it being about a million times worse than the Palestine/Iraq situations. However, none of this really has anything to do with what you quoted or the preceeding discussion.
The UK/US political left are quieter about Chechnya than Iraq because it's the UK/US that are doing the latter. I don't think anyone would seriously suggest Iraq is 'worse' in objective terms.
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