Discussion Time

[mist]

eve is quite dull. the pvp doesn't appeal to me, and seems to devolve to who can click fastest. the economic model is amazing, but also amazingly dull

got to agree with JC

-mist

[Volo]

Back to some previous posts, just a tiny little point

Many people have said before (in other threads as well), that promotion and marketing are crucial for PA's playerbase to increase and the game to progress in general. To be quite honest, I doubt PA would do any better if you had a commerical running on every national tv station worldwide.

This is because you can never "rebuild" what Planetarion was from scratch, with new players. You need to get the old community back playing, if you want this game to even resemble what it was in r3-r7. Even if you miraculously could get +10k players to play (let's be honest, that's not likely to happen anytime soon), the game would simply not be what it was, and it would not be Planetarion we were all helplessly addicted to. Planetarion without the core community and it's unique mentality from the earlier rounds will also never be as addictive to the beginners as it was to us.

I don't really understand for what reasons, but people that worked on Planetarion this past few years always insisted on fixing something that wasn't broken in the first place. I don't seriously believe PA team isn't aware of this, or that they don't want to make things better, but the biggest and the most difficult step is the first step here: admitting some of their crucial decisions were all-out wrong, and show willingnes to fix them, instead of trying to improve them and build on them ("let's fix this, let's balance that").

And yes, I am talking about PaX. I'm not saying the concept, the mechanics are "bad", not even saying that earlier rounds code was better in any way. I'm just saying it's not Planetarion, and it's not something I want to spend time learning / getting to know / actually playing.

So to make this actually fit in the thread's topic, we should first have a discussion on "where we went wrong", rather than "what to do next".

[Conall]

Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_

reasons to why pa has such a small playerbase, in order of "importance":

1] Lack of interest in such online games, in general.
2] P2P
3] Lack of much "real publicity" for the game. Positive publicity that is.
4] Presence of bad publicity, things like the shuffle etc this round,didn`t help.
5] The insistence of some old-core players in assuming this new version of PA isn`t as good. They`re wrong, to an extent.
6] The "feeling" of that Jolt, the game`s owners, doesn`t care much for the game.
7] The "feeling" that the PATeam makes decisions much more to either a] to the sway of the popular demand even though it doesn`t mean it`s right ie: the r12 betas....

You left one major factor out. To be good at this game takes an enormous amount of time. The people that got me into PA didn't leave for any other reason. Most online gamers play to win, but with the need to be almost 24/7 to have a chance truly is a major issue that impacts the game. As much fun as PA can be real life comes first.

I tried to get some of them to come back and play - to a person all said I don't have that kind of time. One interesting suggestion did come up though. We discussed a game similar to this that had time periods and ran on fast ticks. One could join a Universe that covered a 4 hour time slot and where ticks ran every 5 to 10 minutes. They all agreed that might work with their schedules.

[wakey]

You dont need to thank me for writting long rants, in fact ive missed doing so while rl has been taking up alot of my time (the one good thing about being sick is once again having time to put some effort into posting

1) As JC said youve got the wrong end of the stick I beleive although something you do say makes a bit of a difference. The game has to have something to hook players after the wow factor wears off, as such development time which is limited already shouldnt be given to making the game fancy, ok it might get players through the door but they wont stay. If its something that can basically be left to the community to do then fine but we cant let the gameplay suffer by taking up too much of the coders time on the flashy stuff

3) I wouldnt bet on r13 improving things much, priase spreads alot slower than critism and this round has already done alot of damage. Back in r11 one of PATeam was spouting about how they thought with the correct advertising r12 could see PA's numbers shoot up for r12 and as I pointed out at the time its a total pipe dream. Changing PA's repuation and status is a very long term goal, we are looking at probally close to 10 rounds of faultless rounds before we would be looking at regaining 1/10th of the games old rep.

And this is where some of the games problems lie, Jolt, PATeam and the community all seem to expect quick fixes. When the game adds 10 new players or finds one new person singing its praises we all dismiss it as not enough where as its actually an acheivement after the "dark rounds" of the pre jolt post p2p rounds. On the face of things Jolt has done great really, perhaps not as good as they initially promised (something I still believe they should explain as its this that was the root of the mistrust the community has in them. If people are honest about why they failed to meet goals then people are alot more responsive to them unless the reason was sheer stupidity). Its going to be a long slow ride back to where the game was and one we will all play a part in but if we dont adjust our attitudes to whats an improvement we are doomed to fail

4 and 6) Yes Goeff has other things to do but he doesnt need to spend 10 hours every day playing a part in the community, in fact he doesnt need to spend anymore time than he does now. He views these forums and has made a number of decisions from doing so, some which mist mentioned and theres others such as the gagging of mods that stops us being critical of the game, pateam or jolt on these forums with all issues having to be done in private (as you can see i'm taking so much notice of this but hey why should the gag me when all my issues raised have been done so in private and totally ignored. I'm being constructive in my critism of Jolt, PAteam and the game here and they simply have no right to stop me posting them when they refuse to even acknowledge the issues) so if he has time time to do such nitpicking he has time to occasionally post something or introduce himself. Perhaps then we will stop seeing him as a faceless power that be who every so often makes some daft decision for no reason before dissapearing for a month before returning to do something else daft. We would find out about him, find where hes coming from, find out how much he actually believes in PA and maybe even enter some dialog so that we can find some common ground between him and the community so hes not constant;y alienating it. Is it really alot to ask, I dont think so.

If he isnt willing to put a tiny bit more effort in he should leave trhe running to biffy and PaTeam who are more open and maybe understand the game better

5) the development cycle is just all wrong

I mean its something like

Round starts
Fix Bugs
Do little else for most of the round.
Panic cos rounds about to end and littles been done on next round
Quick inadequate beta.
Still making changes when signups open
Features incomplete and bugged
repeat

Its quite simply wrong especially with limited developement time PA has. At this point any work on r12 should have stopped, major bugs should obviously be fixed but everyone should be working in r13 already and what r13 is going to be like and feature should almost be nailed down. Features should also be prioiritiesed making sure key features that are wanted are in and testing should be continous throughout the round not left to the end when simple things should have been sorted.

There should also be long term plans that are continually revised so that you know where you should be in 2, 5, 10 rounds to ensure the game is always evolving with the community, not sitting still till it need a rewrite in 10 rounds time which will see a game that in no way resembles the old one and alientates alot of people. This also lets major ideas be planned, all too often ideas are rejected as too complex to implement at that time and never make it off the backburner. If you have such a big idea that the game wants and needs then you can plan its introduction in the future and plan developement time over the proceeding rounds.

Developement needs more forward thinking and structure

[mist]

Originally Posted by wakey

Developement needs more forward thinking and structure

couldn't agree more. which may explain the 1700 words i ranted in to kloopy's inbox on the subject earlier :P

-mist

[Kal]

Originally Posted by wakey

5) the development cycle is just all wrong

I mean its something like

Round starts
Fix Bugs
Do little else for most of the round.
Panic cos rounds about to end and littles been done on next round
Quick inadequate beta.
Still making changes when signups open
Features incomplete and bugged
repeat

I have to object, even before this round started there were plans appaearing on the pateam forums about round 13. The issue is this, as soon as we sit down to talk about it some major problem comes up with the current round, that takes up all of spinner;'s time and things get delayed. The lack of betas is largely due to issues with the server the portal is run on, we would normally do things like betas and speed games on that server while still being able to run the main game, however something is going wrong with it, again spinner could spend all his time trying to figure the propblme there out, but that would take him away from vital coding work.

As to the beta, I agree it was to short, however it would only have been long enough had we say run it for 4 weeks at normal tick speed and people taken it seriously, which is not possible given the length of a round.

As to adding features after signups have started, all new features added are just minor tweaks as a result of requests and all are tested thoughly prior to uploading. I do not view the self exile thing, and the shuffle as features.

I would say that trhe majority of the features are complete and are in no way bugged, and I would argue that theese are the core features - combat, cover-ops, the bits that actually make the game. The major problem is the galaxy system and exile systems, but theese ahve allways plagued us since we moved away from none private/random systems for galaxies. However we now have 2 roudns of experiance with 2 bad implementations of such systems, so in all honesty I expect a vast improvement for next round, and I hope that discussion time amonsgt other things can help to demonsrate it.

One thing that is importnat though is that people realise that things must be prioitised and some thigns are easier than others. SO even if we all agree an idea from discussion time is wonderful that does not mean it will be in the next round, though of course we would put our best efforts into it.

[HobbieRogue4]

Originally Posted by Kloopy

I would like to see some suggestions that are interesting, can provide a decent amount of discussion and would inspire people from right across the community to participate.

Re-introduce Round 2 Thieves.

That is an example of providing incentive for players to do things they would not normally do, such as defend against random attacks for profit.

Well, being greedy is quite normal in PA, but incentive is not. Alliances were really the only thing that provided this aspect.

[cbk100]

I don't think its a too good idea to go too far away from the text-based gaming as that was what made the game what it was(is). I don't really think that implementing more graphic in the game will make new ppl play cause nomatter what it can't really be anything that improves the gameplay (or can it?) unless a lot of effort and money is put into the coding. Such amounts of money is just not available to improve the game.
I think that ppl who plays PA plays it because of the unique simple gameplay and ofc. because of the community.
There is nothing wrong with the current gameplay (beside too boring ship stats which doesn't allow for enough strategy).
I have suggested this a lot of times to PA HQ and you always refuse to listen but here I try again: Take the old ship stats from around r7-r8 and give Xan a LITTLE less power than they had back then and then take in a few things from the new stats like f.eks. a few more ships to each race (but ofc. making sure that all ships has different ETA). Give Cath a little more EMP power to actualy make it worth playing with them (haven't been that since r4-r5). All in all I think that would make very nice ship stats with lots opportunity for good variated strategies.

The other real problem is that not enough ppl is playing. FINALY PA HQ is actualy doing something to change that (something that was suggested AGES ago actualy with banners in free accounts and limited free accounts and such(just don't make them that damn limited next round as a player on a free account is more or less out of the game)). With better ships stats this should be changed a bit as it might attract some more players and with some advertising (at least more than now) and better free accounts this can change within too long. PA is a game where network externalities is VERY important (meaning that the more ppl playing the game the better the game gets for everyone).

Also PA HQ I hope that you will think about this next round: The hardcore players will pay nomatter what as long as its of relatively importance if you pay or not. This means that if the only differnce between free and paid accounts was -1 difference in the eta then all the hardcore players, those who pays now (or at least 90% of them) will also pay. In other words there is no what so ever good reason to limit the free accounts as much as you do cause all you get out of it is that new players don't get as much gaming for their time here and then the chance that they become hardcore players will be reduced. This is put up very straight forward just to set up an example, but then there is some other aspects like then maybe the hardcore players will use free accounts as multi planets and such things. That is a whole different aspect and can ofc. be reduced by limiting the available scans (as it is now or even rducing the amount of each scan available per day). Also the amount of cov-ops available per day can be reduced. But at least let the new ppl try to play the full game (more or less) cause only if they do that, get into good even battles and get to taste the sweetness of actualy being able to fight better than other ppl, they will fully enjoy the game. And most important of all... Some alliances can actualy afford take them in, and the importance of that can only be underestimated.

At least (for Gods sake) either take up the armour or take down the firepower (I have been crying for that for ages too now) of the current ships so we can actualy see battles where its not a slaughter. As it is now its absolutely not worth it to have battles of any kind. In the old days you could easily have situations where both attacker and defender was happy about the outcome of a battle cause the attacker got some roids without losing too much while defender lost some ships but either just killing some of the attacking fleet or even preventing him from getting max cap.
I haven't seen that for the last many rounds and its a shame cause you can play 100% for 2 months being in the top of the universe and then one day your internet break down and you end up in a fairly even battle where you kill about all of the defending ships. You cap some roids but you lose all of your own fleet too and the round is more or less over.
Moreover by either making ships stronger in defence or weaker in attacks you make sure that the round doesn't stagnate as fast and that should be in everyones interest.
Basicly... Make it worth it to take up a battle...

cbk

[Kal]

Originally Posted by cbk100

Also PA HQ I hope that you will think about this next round: The hardcore players will pay nomatter what as long as its of relatively importance if you pay or not. This means that if the only differnce between free and paid accounts was -1 difference in the eta then all the hardcore players, those who pays now (or at least 90% of them) will also pay. In other words there is no what so ever good reason to limit the free accounts as much as you do cause all you get out of it is that new players don't get as much gaming for their time here and then the chance that they become hardcore players will be reduced. This is put up very straight forward just to set up an example, but then there is some other aspects like then maybe the hardcore players will use free accounts as multi planets and such things. That is a whole different aspect and can ofc. be reduced by limiting the available scans (as it is now or even rducing the amount of each scan available per day). Also the amount of cov-ops available per day can be reduced. But at least let the new ppl try to play the full game (more or less) cause only if they do that, get into good even battles and get to taste the sweetness of actualy being able to fight better than other ppl, they will fully enjoy the game. And most important of all... Some alliances can actualy afford take them in, and the importance of that can only be underestimated.

thats not entirlly correct - the top 20 alliances make up only 75% of paid accounts (assuming all memebrs are paid), and I am, expecting some of them have freebies. This means that if we made free accounts highly playable then we could see a significant drop in numbers, although most would agree that if it were possible it would be a good idea to make them slighlty more playable.

[Kloopy]

I've got a busy day at University today, so I'm not able to spend as much time replying as I'd like, but I am fond of the idea of bringing attacks back to the level where they weren't succerd -or- fail. I really enjoyed the times, too, when you could send an attack, knowing you were to loose some ships, but still be happy with the outcome.

I also think that making ships die less easily and balancing combat to produce those attacks which people used to get excited about would also help the gameplay. By this, I mean that people become more envolved and they feel more attached to their planet and their fleet.

I've just logged into my planet in the computer labs on campus and friends have been talking about PA. Alot of their comments were about how plain the game is, with their point being that Planetarion is really only a pretty database interface. Thinking about it, the dynamics of the game are here in greater abundance than old style PA, but what I think didn't come across to PAX was the immersive atmosphere and attachment people had.

[mist]

planetarion IS only a pretty database interface

but then again, so is a chess set

-mist

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by cbk100

At least (for Gods sake) either take up the armour or take down the firepower (I have been crying for that for ages too now) of the current ships so we can actualy see battles where its not a slaughter. As it is now its absolutely not worth it to have battles of any kind.

Sounds a bit like R4: lots of armor, high salvage, and hours and hours of inconclusive battles. There's nothing quite so frustrating as trying to kill an enemy with a rubber spoon.

[HobbieRogue4]

Originally Posted by Tactitus

Sounds a bit like R4: lots of armor, high salvage, and hours and hours of inconclusive battles. There's nothing quite so frustrating as trying to kill an enemy with a rubber spoon.

Or Spiders.

[Karmulian]

have only read the first page - but this page amuses me ..

both of the ideas kloopy suggested were slated for pa rnd12(as the recode by a proper company that jolt refused to accept despite the offer being free)

although we didn't intend to use js as thats inky


DH will only work however much jolt want it to.. and it won't matter how loud you shout kloopy as you will just ignore them.. and they will just ignore you

btw which of "your previous times in pateam" are we dicussing.. the PAX one.. where you quit as you hated working with spinner... or the Rnd12 one where you quit as you couldn't be arsed

also all the ranters have a point.. where were you when the community was screaming 2-3 days ago..

anyways on the plus.. if it works good.. Pa needs a break as it seems to be stuck in a lull the last few rounds.. espetially as the speedgames didn't work..

enjoy... gripe over

[Karmulian]

PS - for those about to accuse me of being bitter about no longer working for Pa and the hours of work i and others did going to waste your wrong.... i still have all that work and who knows maybe one day....

my gripe tends to be more with kloopy who has come and gone from pateam more times that you can shake a stick at and during his times there was about as effective and reliable as a frog in a blender

[HobbieRogue4]

Originally Posted by Karmulian

my gripe tends to be more with kloopy who has come and gone from pateam more times that you can shake a stick at and during his times there was about as effective and reliable as a frog in a blender

This particular disease can be associated to most people in any level of "above standard authority" so it's not surprising Kloopy can be diagnosed.

Still, let's hang him.

[Kloopy]

Please, don't tie the noose too tight, I've got sensitive skin. But as far as I'm aware I quit PATeam only once. And that was not that I hated working with Spinner. I enjoy working with him, he's a great bloke. What I was against was the whole way PAX was being handled, which didn't just involve Spinner, it involved a few people. There were also personal issues involved, but it's as much your business now as it was then.

As for where I was during the round start, obviously not here. But perhaps the whole idea of stepping up communication came after we realised just how badly round start had been handled. In my books it's always better late than never.

[biffy]

espetially as the speedgames didn't work

The last speedgame I played in was really good fun and I think most other people who played would (and did) agree from the thread I saw on here and the comments in IRC whilst it was going on.

[Karmulian]

didn't know one had been run recently.. the most recent threads i could find were about it being cancelled as the box crashed.. if this is not that case i recind my comment

and to jog your memory kloopy you joined the rnd12 dev team after harrassing members of pateam to be involved

you then quit with a long posting in private about how you ddidn't want to work with Pa as u had no interest in it and would rather run your own game etc..

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Karmulian

didn't know one had been run recently.. the most recent threads i could find were about it being cancelled as the box crashed.. if this is not that case i recind my comment

we ran one on main server just before the round 12 beta, apparently it was really good fun, wish I could have played.

[cbk100]

Originally Posted by Tactitus

Sounds a bit like R4: lots of armor, high salvage, and hours and hours of inconclusive battles. There's nothing quite so frustrating as trying to kill an enemy with a rubber spoon.

Actualy I think there is... the fact that its almost never worth it to take a battle in a game where its about battleing...
But then again I don't really agree with you. Ofc. its kinda hard to settle such a discussion but I will refer to both r5 and r6 where I think everyone who did play those rounds will agree that those rounds were clearly won and especialy in r6 it was won quite some time b4 the end of the round (because of massive blocking but that is a different storry). This is at least a good indication of the fact that it was posible to outbattle the enemy. Weather it was easy to kill him I can't be the one to judge as that will be a discussion on definitions.
But well in a game where ppl can just run away from your attacking fleet its "always" posible to avoid getting killed.

In my oppinion PA HQ has always been too focused on balancing ship stats so that no race is clearly the best, but in their tryings to achieve that they have taken too much focus away from the fact that the stats also has to be balanced on the right level (I mean on a level so that there is not too much firepower and not too little firepower).

cbk

[Wandows]

Originally Posted by Kal

thats not entirlly correct - the top 20 alliances make up only 75% of paid accounts (assuming all memebrs are paid), and I am, expecting some of them have freebies. This means that if we made free accounts highly playable then we could see a significant drop in numbers, although most would agree that if it were possible it would be a good idea to make them slighlty more playable.

i told you a billion times...... the way things are atm... the game will die. At this point there is a steady income on paid accounts. But the joining of new players is almost zero. And you as PaTeam should know that. If you keep hacing these utterly useless free planets.. what is the use for new players to stick around unless they upgrade (and that is something not many ppl will do when they know nothing about the game and have no ties with anyone) + it ain't as easy to get in contact with ppl it was in the "big" rounds.

I've listed enough options to make a free account playable for new players, without giving away the advantage of a paid planet/need to upgrade if you want to play top

You have to give free planets something to work with and be able to play the essence of the game, meaning they have to be able to go out and attack other planets, join alliances and defend eachother. That is in essence what pa is about. give (for a part) the access to so that and they have something to play for.

Lets see current free planets stats:

Technical details in reagrds to the techtree limits for free accounts
Free accounts are limited to:
"Jumpgate" (-1 ETA)
This is useless.... any attack done on paid planets is just a joke (i mean.. eta 10 for fi later in the round... OMG). Attacks will get covered with eta's like that and it makes growing for free planets almost impossible. Also with that eta... its impossible to defend against attacks done from paid planets. Meaning it will only encourage bashing (till some extend) as you can get free roids from any non-paid planet.

"Infrastructure Upgrade" (20 constructions)
Fair... will atleast allow them to build a decent construction % to do something with

No limits on Ship-production
Ofcourse... limiting that would be bad... but then again.. eta 12 CR / BS.

"Technology Analysis" (Planet, Surface and Technology Scan)
What earth is the use of this i wonder.... the scans you need to actually participate in the game are Unit scans and higher. Might aswell give them no scans at all with the information they can gather under current circumstances.

No limits on Core Extraction branch
i guess ok with all the restrictions that have been giving to free accounts already. but its not really my choise.

"Underground Network Charting" (Hacking: Science Databases and Network Charting )
the same as Core extractions... not really my choise to give access to

Heavy Cargo Transfers II (You can mine sucessfully from maximum 200 asteroids)
This is just the biggest joke ever. i mean 200 roids?!?! thats like 4 days initiating your roids and you are done playing as freebie.. there is nothing to do but build ships, ofcourse you can get more roids for XP, but what the use, you will only be able to mine some pathetic amount of roids.

Free accounts also do not have access to the history page and do not see outgoing fleets on the gal status screen. Free accounts also have an ad-banner on the overview page.
I say give them access to the history page.. its only nice for them if they can see some graphs about how well they are doing and might encourage them to stay (hey! i went up xxx ranks past days.. this it fun..i gonna keep playing etc.. or "grrr xxx killed me, i am gonna rape him back").
The outgoing fleets is prefectly understandable with the current universe setup + fear of spies. and the ad-banner.. you're palying for free, nothing to add there.

Free accounts are thus quite limited, but absolutely playable, and are meant as a "try before you buy" product.
This line i can't really agree on. free accounts are severely limited and absolutely NOT playable, as soon as you get some roids there will be a dozens of paid planets just waiting to take them away from you, its no fun at all.


How i would like to have free accounts (dun worry i play a paid one)

My basic idea it to allow free planets to compete in the known universe, as this will increase the playerbase we all experience, it will mean more competition between free and paid planet, without making the paid planet lose any advantage (in my opinion). And it would allow "freebie" alliances to atleast help eachother to a certain extend with will make the game for those ppl more enjoyable giving more chance on them staying to play (and maybe use a upgrade if they are doing well).

"Stargate (-3 ETA)"
This will allow them to attack paid planets and give them a bit of a fight back, however with 1 eta difference the paid planets will still have a pretty big advantage over free planets. Paid planets will have more time to get def against freebies, and they have less chance of being defended against due to the -1 eta diferrence between them. So in these terms, freebies can still be "outplayed".

"Infrastructure Upgrade" (20 constructions)
This one is ok, as it will allow them to atleast make a decent constrcuctions list.

No limits on Ship-production
They will need it to be able to fight of most of the shipclasses around them and it will give them the best oppertunity to test all possibilities for their fleet.

"Technology Analysis" (Planet, Surface, Technology Unit Scan)
This will allow them to atleast get some information on what is out there to target them. Without unit scans they are just sitting ducks that are waiting to die (they have no chance on calcing battles.. nothing.. while that aspect is very important in this game). It may even be good to give them access to news scans, but that might be giving them to much extra information (though always flying in blind ain't fun either).

"Core Extraction" and Mining
The main idea for free accounts i have is to limit their income. They would be able to get to 2000 roids for example, but instead of the normal 250 income per roid, they will get 150 income per roids (or maybe even a bit less). This will reduce their growth rate significantly compared to paid planets, however they still have reasons to play the game as there are 2000 roids to mine! Meaning freebies will have more income in the end then current freebies. But it won't be nearly as much as paid planets can get. Meaning they can't get as close to top as paid planets can be, but still put up a night fight, which will make the universe for all players "bigger" to play in as there is more to fight then just fellow paid planets.
Next to that they would have no access to core extractions, as its not a needed branch to experience the essence of what planetarion is, which is attack & defend other planets. (but you may also question if its still a usefull tree at the point a normal free planets decides to upgrade)

No access to Covert Operations
Covert ops are imho a extra feature and something you should be paying for to use. They are not needed to experience the game like it (in most cases) is being played. They will be able to protect themselves against cover ops, but using them is something they have to wait for till they upgrade.

No access to Engineering
Again this is a bonus feature, free planets should be using the normal techtree & constructions they can use to help them in that way. But engineering is a extra feature that should only be accessible for paid planets, after all, you ain't paying for nothing.

Galstatus & history page
the galaxy status format currently used is fine. The history page just might be nice to add to a free account, as it will certainly not be something i want to pay for to use. Other features will have to make me wanna pay.


The main idea is the give free accounts a chance to compete with paid planets, without having the paid planets lose the advantage. For both free planets and paid ones this will allow alot more interaction between eachother, and should make the game more enjoyable. Alot of paid planets are complaining about the size of the universe, but with usefull free planets i think that problem will be smaller, as there will be alot more treats to face. And the income limit free planets have will confince enough "hardcore" ppl to pay, as tehy have to pay if they want to keep up with the rest of the paying costumers.

As for other new features in planetarion. Personally i couldn't care less about what new features there will be, as long as free planets are as useless/crap as they are at the moment, there is no one that will stick around long enough to get the hang of the game. Most newbs that stay around either have a few friends playing and login once every day, or have been paid by other galm8s who hope they haven't made a mistake.

Before you try to add new stuff to planetarion, think of a way to attract more ppl and keep them at the game instead of logging in once and then do nothing cuz there is no point for them in playing.

[HobbieRogue4]

The simple fact is, there are only so many "special features" that a database-platform game can offer that would cause a random Internet-user and/or gamer to give two squirts about.

The feeling of being part of a community and the atmosphere that alliances offer is what helps maintain players, not whether or not your text-based "planet" has Laser Turrets or Raging Mega-huge Boner Cruisers.

Consider also most people are poor and cannot support heavy graphics-based games available today, such as Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies, etc. About the furthest anyone should seriously consider in the realm of "graphics" would be "attractive, semi-clothed people on display" - but that's what galaxy banners are for. That's the only real way you'll attract new people.

Or continue to promote an online dating service, pretending to be a database-platform game, in which you are the ruler of your own planet, and fly your Boner Cruisers across the stars to defeat evil empire alliances.

I am quite serious by the way.

[Challenger]

Just a few thoughts.
When I first heard of planetarion (through a friend a few years ago) the way he described it made me immediately sign up. I know lots of people have disagreed but for some strange reason when i first heard of planetarion I assumed it would have more graphics and bits and bobs in. At first I found it difficult because I didn't get the concept straight away, but soon picked it up from more experienced players. Fortuantly I have more patience at this kind of thing than the average person, lots of friends who also joined up at that time quickly lost interest.
I guess that's the key to it, keeping people interested until they know the game and genuinely find it exciting, and therefore are willing to upgrade.

Challenger

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Kloopy

but I theorise that if a structured, thought out and sensible argument is delievered to the team/Jolt - as opposed to a load of whining complaints or abusive comments - the community will have a more effect stance and thus get a better responce.

In my experience, PA-Team's idea of a structured, thought out and sensible argument is somewhat different to most other peoples. If this is not the case, then you are implying that PA-Team do not think through/structure/put sense into their own ideas.

Either way, I can't see your idea achieving anything above occasional modest influences.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Kloopy

4) Perhaps there's only one solution to this and it's to start doing things right and change the reputation of PATeam. Difficult as it may be.

Right? You make it sound so simple. There is never a right solution, only a best solution. And again, you make it look like PA-Team aren't trying to do things right already. I think PA-team needs some proper direction, and also, some training. They seem to know absolutely nothing about product design, customer service etc.

I don't think (and never have) that the problem is what PA-Team does, it is what PA-Team IS, the nature of it. That is what causes the problem. PA-Team should really be given some training (difficult, I know, but it could be done somehow, I am sure), and I think the structure needs changing. Make them genuinely accountable for their mistakes. If PA was almost any other product, and it had been as unbalanced as this round, the person making it unbalanced (i.e. person doing the stats) would have been fired/resigned/demoted/whatever. PA-Team seems to live in its own little world where it makes the rules for itself. this is no way to have productivity.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by wakey

5) the development cycle is just all wrong

I mean its something like

Round starts
Fix Bugs
Do little else for most of the round.
Panic cos rounds about to end and littles been done on next round
Quick inadequate beta.
Still making changes when signups open
Features incomplete and bugged
repeat

Its quite simply wrong especially with limited developement time PA has. At this point any work on r12 should have stopped, major bugs should obviously be fixed but everyone should be working in r13 already and what r13 is going to be like and feature should almost be nailed down. Features should also be prioiritiesed making sure key features that are wanted are in and testing should be continous throughout the round not left to the end when simple things should have been sorted.

There should also be long term plans that are continually revised so that you know where you should be in 2, 5, 10 rounds to ensure the game is always evolving with the community, not sitting still till it need a rewrite in 10 rounds time which will see a game that in no way resembles the old one and alientates alot of people. This also lets major ideas be planned, all too often ideas are rejected as too complex to implement at that time and never make it off the backburner. If you have such a big idea that the game wants and needs then you can plan its introduction in the future and plan developement time over the proceeding rounds.

Developement needs more forward thinking and structure

You hit the nail on the head there, only another DIY store to go \o/.

Seriously though, Wakey's point here is one that is REALLY important, and I think does need addressing. There is always such a sense of things having been rushed last minute because a deadline is suddenly appearing, and nothing has been done for the past 3 months. What would be wrong with having discussions NOW for r13? Why can't we discuss the galaxy setup now, discuss issues of the shuffle (which is no doubt not going to be needed again ), and why can't the stats start being worked on? This would be a huge improvement to the game.

[Kloopy]

To reply to your first post, Bashar, I've not quantified the effect this whole discussion initiaitve will have at all. I've just said it will help, and if you disagree with that, then come through to my room and I'll teach you a little optimism.

As for your second post, I agree that PATeam aren't doing any of the things we should be, at least not to an acceptable level. And if I get in trouble for that by other team members, so be it. The rest of my post should go some way to excusing that comment.

We have a meeting tonight, in which we're starting discussions on everything about R13, galaxy setup, stats, combat, shuffle, passport, etc. I've postponed opening threads on the new "Development Discussions" forum until after this meeting so that we can put in any opening thoughts PATeam has had.

As for the structure of PATeam, that's the first item on tonights agenda. We're going to clearly state what each person is responsible for so that at the very basic level, we know who's doing what. As for technical abilitys at organisation and structure, I've done alot of modules at Uni now which have taught me how teams (should) work and about management and lots of things related. I know full well that this doesn't make me a professional at managing a team, but it'll go some way to helping me with the restructure and reorganisation of our short, medium and long term operations.

But to wrap up, a little more patience and you'll start seeing some ways for you to interact with PATeam and be heard.

[Forest]

A big problem is that the ppl who run pateam, and work in pateam, arent ppl that are particulary skilled at the game.

I have often been passed suggestions, that pateam ahve thought were great, only to rip the idea to shreds in seconds.

Until you get the ppl who play the game, and are good at the game, to design the game, then nothing really will change.

[Kal]

/me ponders playing again so he can roid forest

[Forest]

We both know u dont have the skills

[jerome]

neither do you though, FF. :/

[Bashar]

That's all well and good mr Kloopy, but what about the training issues? The simple fact is that the vast majority of PA-Team have no previous experience or training to be doing the jobs they are doing, and I feel this is detrimental to the game, especially when people are paying for their services (I know they are volunteers, but that doesn't wash with people who are handing over money for the services, and Jolt SHOULD make sure they are equipped with the necessary skills and training). I am not in any way saying these people shouldn't be doing the jobs based on this (though I agree with Forests above sentiments about game experience), but I do think they should be given some form of training to do the jobs. It would not only serve the games purposes, but would give something useful to members of PA-Team who are volunteering.

[AndroX]

The idea is great Kloopy, there's just one thing that makes me wonder if it works this time.
As the alliance leaders had something similiar like this last round and all we did was posting and giving idea's and then later we found out (not your fault ofc) that it all been for nothing. Because some people of the pa team walked out and again there was no1 to program PA.
(except for good old Spinner ofc)

I know it might sound silly, but after all these rounds of Planetarion, and all the 'sh*t' we all (crew and gamers) been trough. How can we be sure that there's gonne be listend to the gamers for a change and not the way Jolt or some crew member want it? Cuz I doubt people are willing to participate in things like these if they aren't being worked out aswell.

[mist]

i don't think being particularly skilled at the game is neccessary, certainly not for the majority of the team

however, afaik pateam has noone who's any experience with most things to do with programming, such as specification, design, testing, QA etc etc. other than possibly spinner - whos skillset i have little idea about. imo, this is where skills need to be brought in, either through training or aquisition. worryingly, the pateam probably has enough pr type skills - given their game development skills they certainly get to practice them a lot

personally, i'm more interested to see what jobs the pateam think are neccessary than who's going to be filling them

-mist

[Synthetic_Sid]

A major aspect of the problems seems to be the order in which things are done. It seems that historically there has been a rush to enter the development phase before the design phase has been completed (with the analysis stage being totally skipped).

Too often a "solution" is put forward for discussion without the problem that the solution is supposed to address having been clearly defined. Decide what your objectives are before trying to debate how you're going to achieve them.

[Ace]

Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid

A major aspect of the problems seems to be the order in which things are done. It seems that historically there has been a rush to enter the development phase before the design phase has been completed (with the analysis stage being totally skipped).

Too often a "solution" is put forward for discussion without the problem that the solution is supposed to address having been clearly defined. Decide what your objectives are before trying to debate how you're going to achieve them.

Agreed.
What also happens alot is fixing a small problem without checking what other features depend on that piece of the code so creating new "undocumented features" AKA code errors in the procces.

[Nahoj]

Ok I have 2 ideas.

1. A phone interface for PA so we can play on the go. I realize probably hard to do so it's just my wish.

2. Email/Phone notification on incomings. I don't know about the rest of the world but I'd love it if I could get an email/sms when I have incoming.

Those are my 2 cents Lemme know what you think.

-nahoJ

[mist]

phone interface means you've got to deal with the login graphic thingy.

e-mail/sms has been suggested before. e-mail means you've got to be on your computer anyway. sms costs to send so. plus, the 'activity for teh win' camp complain about them

-mist

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Kal

I have to object, even before this round started there were plans appaearing on the pateam forums about round 13. The issue is this, as soon as we sit down to talk about it some major problem comes up with the current round, that takes up all of spinner;'s time and things get delayed. The lack of betas is largely due to issues with the server the portal is run on, we would normally do things like betas and speed games on that server while still being able to run the main game, however something is going wrong with it, again spinner could spend all his time trying to figure the propblme there out, but that would take him away from vital coding work.

As to the beta, I agree it was to short, however it would only have been long enough had we say run it for 4 weeks at normal tick speed and people taken it seriously, which is not possible given the length of a round.

As to adding features after signups have started, all new features added are just minor tweaks as a result of requests and all are tested thoughly prior to uploading. I do not view the self exile thing, and the shuffle as features.

I would say that trhe majority of the features are complete and are in no way bugged, and I would argue that theese are the core features - combat, cover-ops, the bits that actually make the game. The major problem is the galaxy system and exile systems, but theese ahve allways plagued us since we moved away from none private/random systems for galaxies. However we now have 2 roudns of experiance with 2 bad implementations of such systems, so in all honesty I expect a vast improvement for next round, and I hope that discussion time amonsgt other things can help to demonsrate it.

One thing that is importnat though is that people realise that things must be prioitised and some thigns are easier than others. SO even if we all agree an idea from discussion time is wonderful that does not mean it will be in the next round, though of course we would put our best efforts into it.

Sorry for delay in posting this rally busy with RL atm

1) Lets be honest here kal, most features that make their way arent complete, they are bastardised versions of an initial idea brought about due to lack of time and that brings about bugged and incomplete implementations. The features you mention to counter my point are all features added at the complete reencode and are base features which ofc are complete, these are different to continuied development features

2) At no point have I said things dont need prioritiesed, in fact I mentioned the very fact my post. HOWEVER as i said in my post there needs more structure to this, just because a feature is diffficult to doesnt mean it gets ignored each round but rather development is structured so work is on going on the feature so its then ready in a few rounds time rather than being put off round after round (like the private pack idea) before finally having a poor implementation of it done. Also core modules should always be given priority, just because one idea might look good to the players and is a 5 min task doesnt mean you set about doing that first and leaving the core features until all these small taks are done.

3) if develeopment on next round does start early like you are suggesting then perhaps PATeam really need to take a long hard look at whos involved in this process. After all for many of PATeam what exact qualities do they hold which makes them suitable for taking part in these decisions. People are made PATeam for specific reasons, they might be good at graphics, might be able to code a portal, might be good at managing a newsletter ect ect BUT rarely are they brought in for their game design skills. Most of these peoples only claim for being involved centers on the fact they are players and lets be honest as a whole the playerbase knows every little about how to design a game, we know what we like and dont like but beyond that the knowledge is generally limited. Simply put playing the game doesnt put you in a position to be ablke to design a game and by letting such people be involved in the design decision process your just throwing a spanner in teh works.

Just like the playerbase should only be used as a 'think tank' and not a decision making tool so should most of PATeam. The gaming decisions SHOULD be left down to a design team headed by Spinner. If a PATeam member meets the requirements to be on this team then they will be on it otherwise they will have no more infulence on the decision than a normal player so as to ensure that development of the game isnt overly infulenced by outside forces. As ive already said those outside the design team should simply be 'muses' for the design team whom can given them idea to work with rather than being a direct iinfulence on whats being done like in the past . If we can get a team of the best coders the community has, the best stratigic minds, the best mathametaical minds and the best ideas minds together coupled with a more structured approach theres no reason this game cant go onto new heights.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Wandows

Various stuff

While I agree that the accounts are perhaps too limited I believe going as far as your asking would be a huge finacial mistake for the game. While your limits WOULD prevent you from being top 200 for alot of this games population they WOULDNT stop you gaining whats a resonable rank for yourself. As such theres just not the same motivation for people to upgrade and if people dont upgrade the game has a harder time making a profit. This would then be likly to see an increase in account fees to allow the paid customers to cover the unpaids costs and this is then just going to force more people into taking the decision to not pay as theres no benifit.

The optimum penalty has yet to be found imho and they need to continue lowering the difference each round BUT I would be very suprised if the optimum level was anywhere near what your asking for (unless they are going to add ad pages every 5 clicks kind of yahoo mail style to annoy players into upgrading which i'm sure whouldnt be taken very kindly by the players)

[Nahoj]

Well email would be great to me, my phone gets email

-Nahoj

EDIT: Also to the phone interface, perhaps a seperate site? only accessable by phone? Not sure if it could be done but, if it could you could maybe do away with the login thingy there. Or perhaps add the phone interface for paid players only? Could work better that way and provide more incentive to pay.

[Synthetic_Sid]

Originally Posted by mist

phone interface means you've got to deal with the login graphic thingy.

e-mail/sms has been suggested before. e-mail means you've got to be on your computer anyway. sms costs to send so. plus, the 'activity for teh win' camp complain about them

-mist

Other problem with email/SMS access is it would basically be a license to account-share.

[Nahoj]

Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid

Other problem with email/SMS access is it would basically be a license to account-share.

How so?

[Synthetic_Sid]

Originally Posted by Nahoj

How so?

Becasue you could give access to your email account to other people - and there'd be no way of multi-hunters detecting it.

[Wandows]

Originally Posted by wakey

While I agree that the accounts are perhaps too limited I believe going as far as your asking would be a huge finacial mistake for the game. While your limits WOULD prevent you from being top 200 for alot of this games population they WOULDNT stop you gaining whats a resonable rank for yourself. As such theres just not the same motivation for people to upgrade and if people dont upgrade the game has a harder time making a profit. This would then be likly to see an increase in account fees to allow the paid customers to cover the unpaids costs and this is then just going to force more people into taking the decision to not pay as theres no benifit.

The optimum penalty has yet to be found imho and they need to continue lowering the difference each round BUT I would be very suprised if the optimum level was anywhere near what your asking for (unless they are going to add ad pages every 5 clicks kind of yahoo mail style to annoy players into upgrading which i'm sure whouldnt be taken very kindly by the players)

the main point is though, that if you want to be able to help your alliance in a decent way you would have to upgrade for the extra eta, and most of the idea's are just an example that can be tweaked. I just set in at high stakes cuz i know with any lcuk maybe 0,5% gets implemented prolly.. so i guess any improvement is a good one. As for reaching a ok rank, you would still need plenty of income for that, or another way would be to reduce XP that free planets can gain (this might actually prove to be very effective in the ranking area, as XP makes up a large bulk of the score). There are really dozens of options to make free planets fun to play instead and able to compete without losing the paid customers (who mostly pay cuz of their alliances?).

The main point is you need new blood to stick around, whether they pay or not, atm they won't if they can't pay.. which is bad, cuz maybe if you can keep them interested for a month+ you might actually get them to pay for the next round (or atleast keep on playing and increase the player base / number of targets). By removing the abilty to end as a top planet and adding the options that will improve their actual gameplay and get them atleast interested in the game the community may actually have a chance on growing again with decent numbers. And i think that is a bigger concern atm then only thinking of increasing paid planets, as there will always be a roughly the same amount of paid planets as long as this game won't grow --> most alliance members will upgrade either way for the extra -1 eta + extra income you would get for the account (taken my suggestions are all agreed upon), and if you add XP to that there isn't much else a player can do then to upgrade if you want to end in a decent rank.

[mist]

Originally Posted by Wandows

the main point is though, that if you want to be able to help your alliance in a decent way you would have to upgrade for the extra eta

this is a huge problem

on the one hand, if free accounts can take a meaningful part in alliances then why would anyone upgrade? also, if they got all the eta stuff they'd make much better bot planets.

on the flipside, free planets atm are pointless to alliances, so will never be integrated in to the community

-mist

[Nahoj]

Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid

Becasue you could give access to your email account to other people - and there'd be no way of multi-hunters detecting it.

So? someone could access your email and see you have incoming? So what? They cant log in to your account. And, if they could it wouldnt matter if they got into your email for that notice. They could just login and see for themselves.

[mist]

logging in and seeing for themselves would require a scan, whereas if you can have it e-mailed to you, an alliance could easilly set each of their members up wiht an e-mail address, and get a warning whenever a member gets incomming

-mist

[Nahoj]

Originally Posted by mist

logging in and seeing for themselves would require a scan, whereas if you can have it e-mailed to you, an alliance could easilly set each of their members up wiht an e-mail address, and get a warning whenever a member gets incomming

-mist

Ok, the Alliance getting the email makes some sense. But. what if we set it so it could only email the address you signed up with? That might do it. But then there are forwarders So that might not even work. But when I say alert to incoming. . . . Wait! what if it just says you have incoming? It puts in no coordinates, would that work?

-Nahoj