So, Iraq...

[Ste]

Do you think it is in a worse state now than before the war?
they've just formed their government 3 months after the election.
The population are not happy.
There are daily bombings, assassinations and kidnappings.
The western soldiers are still there much to the dismay of almost all the iraqi's.
The legality of the war is up in the air again, whether you think it was to "make the region safer" or "for oil" or for "regime change" or "saddam was a bad man" or "look he had wmd". It is on dodgy ground, I'm not sure the legality can be argued for.

Anyway, is it better or worse? made the world a better place? and care to add any comments I may have missed?

[Phil^]

its utter anarchy.
the last thing you want to do with a wasps nest is to go stamping on it - the approach for dealing with Iraq was entirely wrong.

[KoeN]

i really, really don't give a shit about this piece of desert.

iraqi people happy, iraqi people unhappy.
war for freedom, war for oil.
saddam bad, saddam not bad.
americans to stay, americans to leave.

whatever, people.

[lokken]

One question i've asked myself is whether 'freedom' (whatever people think this is, as 'freedom' is a bit of a US propaganda word) in the case of other states has been easy to obtain. The conclusion I came to is in the negative, and therefore I'd rather be patient.

[Stew]

There's a thread starter with the ambition of reaching a large amount of replies if ever I've seen one.

[Squishy]

its very simple in my opinion u cant force democracy on people who are not ready

Denocracy has to grow and only when the people are ready. Its something the americans dont realise and probebly never will.

The war was stupid all they succeded in doing was destabalising the region with sadam in power their were no terorist in iraq now their is. He wasnt a nice person in fact he was rather evil but sometimes countrys need that. Look at britian we had many evil dictators rulling us ( we called them kings) and eventuallly the people demanded more of a say in the running of their lifes and thus democracy was born. Its the only way it can happen succecfully imo

[wu_trax]

i agree with Koen. i dont give a damn any more.

[ceres]

I dont believe the Iraqi people were ready for "freedom", i think we saw that when the first thing they did with sadam gone was to loot everything that wasnt bolted down. A more gradual change is what was needed.
________
Adelyn

[Cannon_Fodder]

The problem was America went in thinking they are knights in shining armour and that Saddam would roll over and turn himself in on day one. Too much thought was put into who would get what contracts, not how would they rebuild a country and police it.

[Ste]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

i agree with Koen. i dont give a damn any more.

it's still going on, people are still dying, we should still care! It's ok for you in countries that haven't got troops out there.
Another British soldier died today.
It's still an issue and should still be debated!

I'm more interested as to what the pro-war people think.
But I just realised that most of them aren't here any more

[wu_trax]

there never were many around here. if you find someone hes most likelyjust trolling. go to freerepulic.com if you want to talk to people who have completly gone nuts.

[lokken]

I'm of the view it's a mess we've created, and therefore one we should be responsible for.

Pulling troops isn't necessarily the best solution - that's just simply saying 'not our problem' and walking away without a care in the world and the greatest possible self-interest in my view.

It's obvious that the planning to the Iraq war was very poor indeed - I have no problem with their act of war, it was their call to make - their execution leaves a lot to be desired though.

[wu_trax]

the execution of the war was perfect. noone could have planed it any better, the problem is that they had no idea about what to do after the war* was over. ofc saddam never was a military genius, so that certainly helped.

* war as one would imagine a war, not that partisan fighting and bombing thats still going on.

[Kurashima]

Originally Posted by Phil^

its utter anarchy.
the last thing you want to do with a wasps nest is to go stamping on it - the approach for dealing with Iraq was entirely wrong.

Quoted for Truth , Justice , and the American Way.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Ste

Anyway, is it better or worse?

Worse, of course. (Especially for the hundred thousand dead Iraqis, for whom it's considerably worse.)

Originally Posted by Ste

made the world a better place?

Not unless "a better place" means "far more dangerous than before with far more angry terrorists running around thinking of ways to do as much damage to the West as we've done to the Middle East".

Originally Posted by Ste

and care to add any comments I may have missed?

Tony Blair should be impeached and then tried for war crimes.

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Ste

Do you think it is in a worse state now than before the war?

Well, I'm sure the trains used to run on time. But I guess it depends on your definitions. :|

they've just formed their government 3 months after the election.

As opposed to not having free elections?

The population are not happy.

How did you determine this? And were they happier under Saddam?

There are daily bombings, assassinations and kidnappings.

Yeah that sucks, but is it worse than this?

The western soldiers are still there much to the dismay of almost all the iraqi's.

How did you determine this? The polls I've seen say the majority of Iraqi's would prefer the troops to remain for the time being. And that's been the position of their government as well.

The legality of the war is up in the air again, whether you think it was to "make the region safer" or "for oil" or for "regime change" or "saddam was a bad man" or "look he had wmd". It is on dodgy ground, I'm not sure the legality can be argued for.

That's almost funny.

Anyway, is it better or worse? made the world a better place?

I think Iraq is marginally better now, and with enormously more potential in the future. The world as a whole is better.

and care to add any comments I may have missed?

Hooya!

[Deffeh]

I dont think any citizen who lives with Islam is ever going to be "free", the rest is irrelevant.

A war on Islam would have been much better

[Deffeh]

And whoever thinks i've been brainwashed by Fox News is entirely off the mark. I don't have any time for America, but i dont have any time for religion either, especially Islam. I dont think i should tolerate a belief that has no respect for women, or human rights.

[Marilyn Manson]

It's hard to measure these things. Personally, I'd say that a country which has an unstable democracy, but has reasonable to good prospects for improvement is in a better situation than a dictatorship which was going nowhere fast and was an international pariah.

Originally Posted by Deffeh

I dont think any citizen who lives with Islam is ever going to be "free", the rest is irrelevant.

A war on Islam would have been much better

I agree, you cannot liberate a religion that thrives on containment.

[Kurashima]

You cannot liberate a religion that worships a different god.

End
Of
Discussion.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

A war on Islam would have been much better

How can you wage war against a religious conviction?

[Phang]

Originally Posted by Tactitus

Yeah that sucks, but is it worse than this?

yes?

and if there's any doubt as to whether a US-led international coalition can run a country better than SADDAM ****ING HUSSEIN there's a problem. and frankly it doesn't look in the slightest like they can.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by ceres

I dont believe the Iraqi people were ready for "freedom", i think we saw that when the first thing they did with sadam gone was to loot everything that wasnt bolted down. A more gradual change is what was needed.

"Rodney King"

Originally Posted by Squishy

its very simple in my opinion u cant force democracy on people who are not ready

Denocracy has to grow and only when the people are ready. Its something the americans dont realise and probebly never will.

The war was stupid all they succeded in doing was destabalising the region with sadam in power their were no terorist in iraq now their is. He wasnt a nice person in fact he was rather evil but sometimes countrys need that. Look at britian we had many evil dictators rulling us ( we called them kings) and eventuallly the people demanded more of a say in the running of their lifes and thus democracy was born. Its the only way it can happen succecfully imo

Japan 1945(52)

[Marilyn Manson]

Err, wait a minute. The majority of the electorate of Iraq did participate in the elections. (62%)

For a people who are not yet ready to have democracy 'forced' on them, they have a strange way of expressing it.

[JonnyBGood]

Maybe Ireland wasn't ready for democracy because of the IRA!


Hold on, you mean minor groups who express discontent violently aren't necessarily indicative of large-scale public opinion? Get out of town!

[Kurashima]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Maybe Ireland wasn't ready for democracy because of the IRA!


Hold on, you mean minor groups who express discontent violently aren't necessarily indicative of large-scale public opinion? Get out of town!

Jonny , can you PLEASE express statements with serious meaning with a far lesser degree of sarcasm please.

It makes it so hard to take you seriously when im laughing.

[Yahwe]

you can't 'liberate'

or 'democratise'

a society that has lived with despotism for over 5.000 years

(yes you'll note, far longer than it has been islamic.)

Alexander the great noted that the people of (what we call the middle east and iraq) could never be free, because they did not know how to say the word 'no'.

nothing has changed.

[Marilyn Manson]

We'd lived with despotism since the year dot until a few hundred years ago, and yet here we are. I also hear many places in Eastern Europe have also made big strides in this regard recently without having a tradition of this kind of thing.

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

We'd lived with despotism since the year dot until a few hundred years ago, and yet here we are. I also hear many places in Eastern Europe have also made big strides in this regard recently without having a tradition of this kind of thing.

actually we didn't

but hey

if you want to just say we did, i'm sure people will believe you

oh and when was the year dot exactly?

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

actually we didn't

Yes we did.

Originally Posted by Yahwe

oh and when was the year dot exactly?

.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

oh and when was the year dot exactly?

1189.

[zakoff]

I don't think anyone can seriously argue that Iraq is a better place.

However, I'd like to see anyone come up with the answer of how to make Iraq better. MM is right, that Eastern Europe didn't have a tradition of democracy, but was able to adopt it fairly easily. The difference is that the Eastern European states gained democracy for themselves, it wasn't forced upon them.

I don't think Iraq is, as Yahwe states, that you cannot democratise Iraq or pacify etc. Where is the evidence for that? Surely any culture can have democracy, Iraqi's aren't aliens...

We also have to remember that the violence etc is only caused by a minority of people within the country, most chose democracy over violence when they went to vote in the Elections.

[JonnyBGood]

Holy shit man I already pointed out that Japan became democratic after World War Two and it certainly didn't gain it for itself.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by zakoff

However, I'd like to see anyone come up with the answer of how to make Iraq better.

Wait until the rebels finally give up and go home, (Which is already happening to some extent, certainly compared to a year ago.) and wait until natural growth and improvement as a result of reconstruction kicks in. It's not that hard.

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by zakoff

I don't think anyone can seriously argue that Iraq is a better place.

However, I'd like to see anyone come up with the answer of how to make Iraq better. MM is right, that Eastern Europe didn't have a tradition of democracy,

your memory is too short for me to deal with.

[Marilyn Manson]

Oh, and swathes of states have had democracy 'forced' on them, either directly or to some extent indirectly, and have gone on to prosper. Christ, this applies to practically everything between the Rhine and the Urals.

[zakoff]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

Wait until the rebels finally give up and go home, (Which is already happening to some extent, certainly compared to a year ago.) and wait until natural growth and improvement as a result of reconstruction kicks in. It's not that hard.

I don't think there is much of an improvement. Its just reported less. I read a report recently, in the Guardian weekly, about the kidnappings. It was about the kidnapping of Iraqi's, which according to them was occuring more than with Western citezens and just wasn't getting reported. There are also many kidnappings that are still going on - The Romanian Journalists and now an Austrialian Journalist.

The Bombings are also still going on, however they are less significantly reported on the news. Unless a serviceman dies, its not as important as the Election news etc.

Ok, its improved, but I really doubt that it will just blow over. Whether the reconstruction is working, i don't know... Economic growth is just not going to happen, investment in the country must be at an all time low because of the bombings etc... I'd be suprised if there is enough security for anything significant to happen economically. Who knows though, I'm coming to the conclusion that no one in Government really cares at the moment what goes on.

[Yahwe]

you rant dear

i raised a 5,000 year old truth.

if it changes. i will be surprised.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

if it changes. i will be surprised.

It already is changing on the outskirts of the region. Turkey is constantly advancing in this regard, and so are many of the smaller Gulf States (Bahrain springs to mind.) Soon enough the core of the Arab states will also go the same way. The outside pressure is simply too great on them not to change. Ever since the end of 'ancient' times no-one in the West has really given a shit about the Middle East - the absolute opposite is true now.

[KoeN]

iraq

is

stupid

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by sniborp

The problem was America went in thinking they are knights in shining armour

I don't think they did. I think they knew that the rebuilding would be a nightmare, and so they dismissed that problem by not actually paying attention to it. If they had the best interests... hell, any interest in the Iraqi people at all, they wouldn't have gone in until they knew what to do after they won, and not just wing it as they seem to have been doing recently.

[Marilyn Manson]

Actually, from what I know of the subject, many in the administration considered that they would be greeted more or less across the board as liberators, and thus there was very little need for substantial pre-planning. What planning there was, was poor, and grossly underestimated the potential problems.

[roadrunner_0]

Originally Posted by Tactitus

Well, I'm sure the trains used to run on time. But I guess it depends on your definitions. :|

As opposed to not having free elections?

How did you determine this? And were they happier under Saddam?

Yeah that sucks, but is it worse than this?

How did you determine this? The polls I've seen say the majority of Iraqi's would prefer the troops to remain for the time being. And that's been the position of their government as well.

That's almost funny.

I think Iraq is marginally better now, and with enormously more potential in the future. The world as a whole is better.

Hooya!

easily the best post in the thread, and possibly the most ignored by people with the other point of view, because its hard to refute

[Cannon_Fodder]

i ignored it because i agreed with it, couldnt improve it, and cba to quote it

[Texan]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

i agree with Koen. i dont give a damn any more.

Hey Wu buddy, I'm back in Germany after five years. Still don't have my computer here yet, or a place to live. I'm at an Internet cafe.

Are you becoming lethargic from caring too much int he past?

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Texan

Hey Wu buddy, I'm back in Germany after five years. Still don't have my computer here yet, or a place to live. I'm at an Internet cafe.

Are you becoming lethargic from caring too much int he past?

welcome back its been five years already?

and yes, probably, no matter how much you care and argue, you don't change anything anyway, you can't even convice anyone of anything, so i see no point anymore

[roadrunner_0]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

welcome back its been five years already?

and yes, probably, no matter how much you care and argue, you don't change anything anyway, you can't even convice anyone of anything, so i see no point anymore

its taken you that long to realise the prime rule of the internet?

[Texan]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

welcome back its been five years already?

and yes, probably, no matter how much you care and argue, you don't change anything anyway, you can't even convice anyone of anything, so i see no point anymore

It's been two years since I left Belgium, but five since I left Germany.

I changed my opinion on Israel a few years back. It can happen.

[CamelToe]

Originally Posted by zakoff

investment in the country must be at an all time low because of the bombings etc... I'd be suprised if there is enough security for anything significant to happen economically. Who knows though, I'm coming to the conclusion that no one in Government really cares at the moment what goes on.

Is this a serious comment or was this that witty European humour thing I've heard so much about. For the first time since a while ago, foreign companies are actually putting money into the country legimately to build roads, schools, hospitals, and oil-works.

As the great, and wise Ice Cube once said, "You better check yo self fo' you reck yo'self."