gateway drugs!

[Deepflow]

so im thinking about taking ketamin, obviously objectively this isnt a very good idea, it being very similar in its effects to heroin and highly good and also highly addictive

but i find temptation in this kind of arena (or temptation in almost any) very difficult to deal with, id never think of buying some myself, but a friend has said hed give me a line for free. Right now when im sober im thinking id never do it though, which is a good thing (and also probably good because id never take ketamin while drunk as its highly dangerous). Anyway, someone else pointed out to me that i would take heroin in certain situations also, and probably crack too. Both of these would be if i was even slightly off my head and someone was offering.

anyway, just saying, gateway drugs theory is berlatantly true upon highly impressionable people like myself. even with things people would never have considered using under any circumstances before

anyone ever taken any heroin like stuff themselves? or crack?

[ChubbyChecker]

What is this gateway drugs theory of which you speak?

[Dante Hicks]

The "gateway drugs" theory seems to be partially true on a very basic level, but only because of the stupid attitude towards drugs in the first place.

I mean, lots of people take pot and only pot, and therefore it's not exactly like it's inevitable. But it does seem that lots of people try one drug, and then another, and then another, etc. This partially seems to be because that drugs are taboo / illegal in the first place. Once someone has taken the step into having to associate with potentially undesirable people, it's a lot eaiser to go the whole hog.

There's also the issue that once you realise that 90% of all information about drugs is utter bullshit, it's easier to dismiss any potentially real dangers. Boy who cried wolf basically. If they laid off the "One Ecstacy Tablet Can Kill!" bullshit then people might believe the hype on Heroin or whatever.

Having said all that, I plan to take heroin and ketamine in the future; I see no problem with experimentation. Obviously if you're completley weak-willed then it's probably not the best plan in the world.

[Deepflow]

um, taking less dangerous/addictive drugs lead to you wanting to get bigger highs etc so you take more dangerous/addictive ones that you would not have without taking the 'safer' ones.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

um, taking less dangerous/addictive drugs lead to you wanting to get bigger highs etc so you take more dangerous/addictive ones that you would not have without taking the 'safer' ones.

Possibly, although I'm not sure if it's a "bigger high" thing. I think people just want to find their drug of choice. Most drugs have particular problems / "gaps" and so people search for the thing for them. Possibly.

I mean, I'd like the confidence of alcohol / coke, the loved up feeling of E, energy of speed, insight of mushrooms all in one, without any of the agression / depression / sleep-depivation and paranoia respectively.

[Nodrog]

The gateway concept doesnt just apply to recreational drugs which are currently classed as illegal, it applies to pretty much everything that can be enjoyable. With certain people, the more you get into something, the more of it you tend to want., as the sensations often get more pleasurable as you become involved more deeply. This is what leads to (for example) people who only started going to the gym to lose a bit of weight turning into hard-core fitness types, or those who only started playing Go as a random pastime ending up devoting upwards of 6 hours a day to it.

It's up to you to set your own level of participation, and to draw the line where you think it needs to be drawn. The gateway 'theory' is useful to explain a social trend, but it doesnt really apply deterministically at an individual level, where progression is completely your choice at every stage.

[Deepflow]

the problem is, im getting less and less from E than i used to, havent taken coke that much before.

weed and alchohol tolerances arent really going to go up any more, i hope.

also, i think i probably am weaker mentally when it comes to taking drugs and resisting habit forming than most people. always have been, which is why taking ketamin and heroin in the future might not be such a good idea for me personally. I have no problem with anyone else doing whatever they want though.

[Deciduous]

So what was the original 'pull' to taking drugs for you all then. I ask because despite being surrounded by people who drink heavily, smoke cigs and weed, do pills and a few folk who are into heroin (who I must admit are not a very good advert for it) I've never been interested in even trying them.

[queball]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Possibly, although I'm not sure if it's a "bigger high" thing. I think people just want to find their drug of choice. Most drugs have particular problems / "gaps" and so people search for the thing for them. Possibly.

I mean, I'd like the confidence of alcohol / coke, the loved up feeling of E, energy of speed, insight of mushrooms all in one, without any of the agression / depression / sleep-depivation and paranoia respectively.

Wouldn't Prozac and sleeping pills cure those side-effects?

[Deciduous]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

This is what leads to (for example) people who only started going to the gym to lose a bit of weight turning into hard-core fitness types, or those who only started playing Go as a random pastime ending up devoting upwards of 6 hours a day to it.

Your OCD is showing again ;P

[queball]

Nod did you just edit "8" to say "upwards of 6"?

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by queball

Nod did you just edit "8" to say "upwards of 6"?

I changed the sentence structure, it didn't read properly.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by queball

Wouldn't Prozac and sleeping pills cure those side-effects?

Only by creating a bunch of other ones.

[Snurx]

If you think that the drugs will end up owning you (In the sense that you become a junkie*), I would not recomend trying them at all. I will never touch heroine/ketamine, beacause from prior experimenting, I do belive that I have a very short way to complete addiction. (There are a lot of factors playing in that makes me belive this)

If i had felt like i could do it a couple of times and never look back, I would do them with no regrets.


*You don't have to live on the street to be a junkie.

[The General8]

why do you need to take drugs? there are other ways to feel good you know

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

So what was the original 'pull' to taking drugs for you all then.

There's a Calvin and Hobbes strip where Calvin's father says something like :
"On your deathbed, no-one wishes they had spent more time at the office."

Life is for living, and within reason it seems sound enough to try and experience as much of it as possible (well, the enjoyable bits at least). Drugs, travelling, culture, other people, etc are all part of this.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by The General8

why do you need to take drugs?

Very few people "need" to. But why not?

Why do you play computer games? There's other ways to have fun you know!

[Nodrog]

And so it begins.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

And so it begins.

[Deepflow]

what dante said, i dont like to feel im missing out on something thats so readily available also. If they didnt exist i wouldnt care, but im glad ive taken all the drugs i have in my life.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Very few people "need" to. But why not?

Why do you play computer games? There's other ways to have fun you know!

This seems pretty silly and nihilistic. I'd like to think that most people who take recreational drugs which are currently classed as illegal (which I will abbreviate to RDCCI for the remainder of this thread) have a better reason for doing so than 'because theres nothing else to do' or 'why not?'.

[djbass]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

So what was the original 'pull' to taking drugs for you all then. I ask because despite being surrounded by people who drink heavily, smoke cigs and weed, do pills and a few folk who are into heroin (who I must admit are not a very good advert for it) I've never been interested in even trying them.

I'm more or less in the same basket. Given that a large number of these drugs have effects on the respiratory system and I'm an asthmatic who's extremly allergic to smoke it would be very foolish of me to even try.

That said, it would seem to me most cases I have seen have resulted from the person wanting escapism.They want for a brief moment to be in a world outside their own and without consequence. This can be either direct or indirect escapism, but I can think of few examples where this is not the case.

[Snurx]

Originally Posted by The General8

why do you need to take drugs?

It's good. So why not?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

This seems pretty silly and nihilistic. I'd like to think that most people who take recreational drugs which are currently classed as illegal (which I will abbreviate to RDCCI for the remainder of this thread) have a better reason for doing so than 'because theres nothing else to do' or 'why not?'.

Well, on a very obvious level the reason why people take drugs is because they enjoy the effects for whatever reason. I was presuming he was talking about trying for the first time (which is slightly different).

Also his question relied on "not taking drugs" being the default to which everyone who divert from had to supply justification. Such a question phrased the same way about computer games wouldn't be asked in the same fashion (thus my rhetorical question).

[Snurx]

It's the whole truth. It makes me feel good. You're correct, however, that it's a way to escape this grey and evil world, but that's one of the main reasons why it's good.

[djbass]

Originally Posted by Snurx

It's the whole truth. It makes me feel good. You're correct, however, that it's a way to escape this grey and evil world, but that's one of the main reasons why it's good.

It's the reason.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by djbass

It's the reason.

Not really. Taking K or Heroin might be about escapism, but I don't really see how (say) going to a nightclub, taking E while chatting to people, dancing, having fun, etc is about "escaping" anything particularly.

[Snurx]

Originally Posted by djbass

It's the reason.

Probably, yes.


This can be applied to almost anything most of us western humans do, I think.

[Deciduous]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Also his question relied on "not taking drugs" being the default to which everyone who divert from had to supply justification. Such a question phrased the same way about computer games wouldn't be asked in the same fashion (thus my rhetorical question).

I'm not sure that makes sense. Of course everyone starts off in a state of not taking drugs, just as they start off not playing computer games or not being a goth or listening to hiphop.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

I'm not sure that makes sense. Of course everyone starts off in a state of not taking drugs, just as they start off not playing computer games or not being a goth or listening to hiphop.

Yes, but it's not something that would normally be asked, is it? "Why do you listen to hip-hop, there's plenty of other music out there!" would be a monumentally stupid question since 90% of the time it'll be answered with "I like it" (or equivalent).

[Deciduous]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Yes, but it's not something that would normally be asked, is it? "Why do you listen to hip-hop, there's plenty of other music out there!" would be a monumentally stupid questions since 90% of the time it'll be answered with "I like it".

Slightly different I think due to the nature of how you experience it. If I found out that I enjoy throwing myself down flights of stairs, you might not begrudge me the right to enjoy myself, but perhaps question how it came about that I decided to try it in the first place.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Not really. Taking K or Heroin might be about escapism, but I don't really see how (say) going to a nightclub, taking E while chatting to people, dancing, having fun, etc is about "escaping" anything particularly.

How is "I work all week to party on the weekends!" not an escapist form of life?

[JonnyBGood]

I propose we ban imagination to stop this dangerous "escapism" of which you speak. As such full frontal lobotomies for everyone!

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

Slightly different I think due to the nature of how you experience it. If I found out that I enjoy throwing myself down flights of stairs, you might not begrudge me the right to enjoy myself, but perhaps question how it came about that I decided to try it in the first place.

Maybe. But that's mainly due to the fact it's pretty unique. I find the idea of cutting myself pretty abhorrent, but as I've met quite a few people who do it, it's not something I'd expect them to justify.

Originally Posted by Idimmu

its the difference between drinking alcohol at a pub

and being an alcoholic

Well, if you mean that some drug use is like being an alcoholic, and others are like drinking in a pub socially then yeah. It seems weird to group it altogether.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

How is "I work all week to party on the weekends!" not an escapist form of life?

How is that related to drug taking specifically? Or can people not party without drugs?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by idimmu

people that only took an e once shouldnt be allowed to discuss drugs in the same way that people that dont understand sociology and philosophy dont talk about them \o/

If we can have an objective criteria for the latter point then I agree to this.

[djbass]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Not really. Taking K or Heroin might be about escapism, but I don't really see how (say) going to a nightclub, taking E while chatting to people, dancing, having fun, etc is about "escaping" anything particularly.

It's escaping consequence, reality, whatever. Now having not taken E I can only presume it's effects to be hallucinagenic (escapism from reality) and that much like alcohol it detaches you from consequence giving you the confidence to talk to people you would not normally talk to or hit on someone you normally wouldn't or get on the dance floor and shake your booty like a tard etc. See my point?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

How is "I work all week to party on the weekends!" not an escapist form of life?

Going on holiday is escapism.

[Deciduous]

Nod did you just edit/delete a post or am I going mental?

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by djbass

It's escaping consequence, reality, whatever. Now having not taken E I can only presume it's effects to be hallucinagenic (escapism from reality) and that much like alcohol it detaches you from consequence giving you the confidence to talk to people you would not normally talk to or hit on someone you normally wouldn't or get on the dance floor and shake your booty like a tard etc. See my point?

This is silly. You cant talk about why 'all' people choose to do something for obvious reasons, and I dont really see why it matters why 'most' people do it unless youre doing some kind of statistical research. What's important is the possibile benefits/risks for yourself personally, not the psychological states of others.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by djbass

It's escaping consequence, reality, whatever. Now having not taken E I can only presume it's effects to be hallucinagenic (escapism from reality) and that much like alcohol it detaches you from consequence giving you the confidence to talk to people you would not normally talk to or hit on someone you normally wouldn't or get on the dance floor and shake your booty like a tard etc.

Not really, it's not hallucinagenic (at least, not as I've experienced) and I've never done anything I wouldn't normally do. But I'm a control freak so it's slightly different I guess. I dance like a 'tard with or without drugs. I obviously can't speak for other people.

I see what you are saying, but I think it's silly to say that "personality modifying drugs" (like alcohol) are "escapist". If you drink to forget that you hate your life then sure. If you have a few drinks to summon the courage to ask the bird you've had your eye on for weeks to dance then I'd hardly say it's "escapist" - if anything it's exposing you more to life (whatever that might mean).

[Nodrog]

I think 'escapism' only makes when applied to lifestyles, not individual actions. Someone who is highly self-aware 6 days a week and does E on the seventh is committing escapism to a far lesser degree than someone who goes through most of their life half asleep but never touches recreational drugs at all. I think a lot of people probably use drugs to supplement an already escapist lifestyle, but this doesnt mean that this is their only purpose, nor does it lessen other benefits that can be derived from them.

[Danae]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

so im thinking about taking ketamin

wow, how cool

[Deepflow]

E can be hallucinogenic. MDMA isnt though. thats pretty much an irrelevant distinction for this discussion though.

i dont see what about it is so much 'escapism'. If you are going to say that anything fun is escapism then you should stop referring to this escapism as such a negative thing. You could add computer games, concerts, television, anything, all of them to some degree escapism. But you dont say someone is damaging themselves or 'getting addicted' while they are partaking in such things.

it does seem to me there is also an element of jealousy in those posting anti drug rhetoric. Of course that isnt always true, but those who have not experienced cant really judge.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

E can be hallucinogenic. MDMA isnt though. thats pretty much an irrelevant distinction for this discussion though.

i dont see what about it is so much 'escapism'. If you are going to say that anything fun is escapism then you should stop referring to this escapism as such a negative thing. You could add computer games, concerts, television, anything, all of them to some degree escapism. But you dont say someone is damaging themselves or 'getting addicted' while they are partaking in such things.

I'd say that anything taken primarily to dull the mind is escapism. Everything you just mentioned (other than maybe concerts) can certainly be used in this way, depending on the person.

[djbass]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

If you have a few drinks to summon the courage to ask the bird you've had your eye on for weeks to dance then I'd hardly say it's "escapist" - if anything it's exposing you more to life (whatever that might mean).

Then think of it in this context. What reason is it that prevents you from hitting on the bird in your normal unaltered state? What is it that you think is going to happen that taking a 'confidence booster' is going to help put that aside? That would indicate to me a fear of something, and you are doing it to escape that fear, to push aside whatever blockade it is that would normal prevent you from doing such an action. Remember I was not analysing the effect but the cause.

Neither was I arguing for or against the subject, just answering the question of why?

If you want an argument against though then I would simply say that such drugs are carcinogenic or that this escapism does not fix the problem rather prolongs it.

[Deciduous]

FAO Deepthroat I haven't seen any anti drug posts yet

[edit] i dont post fast enough, obviously

[Deepflow]

with certain drugs (heroin etc) you wont be doing any of your normal things because you simply wont care.

That is real escapism. Also, id say concerts (or at least the kind i would go to) are escapism, you act completely different in a mosh pit to how you would in real life, for obvious reasons. You feel like youre in a different world, if thats not escapism its hard to imagine what is.

[Deepflow]

im not labelling it as escapism. I dont think drugs are at all actually. And if you are going to take that line, then its very difficult to label taking drugs as escapism. I fail to see the distinction between going to a fantastic rock concert and going to a dance club and taking Es, both have the same effect for me, one is much cheaper though.

[Deciduous]

OK, so we've established going about your everyday activity is a means of escaping your everyday activity.