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16 Jun 2005, 21:58
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#1
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share the <3
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Location: Location:
Posts: 2,709
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UK EU rebate
Can any of the non-uk people tell me what the argument about us not having it is? All we seem to hear in britain is we don't spend as much on farming and by god we're not going to contribute as much as the dutch or the germans. Theres mention of britians economy being stronger but i don't see what this has to do with a net GNP/head contribution. What do the various news in which ever country you are in say about all this?
__________________
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though ive gone off her now; the way Susanna Reid squirms around on sml is, however, awesome
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16 Jun 2005, 22:09
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#2
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Next goal wins!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: London
Posts: 5,406
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Re: UK EU rebate
yeah, thats confused me as well... at least the story that the british media tells me is that britain deserves it (and more), for pretty much the reason that nusselt gave me. i.e the CAP gives so much more money to other countries (notably france) than britain so its counterbalancing the injustice of it all.
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bastard bastard bastard bastard
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16 Jun 2005, 22:11
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#3
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: UK EU rebate
oh ignore it
chirac is just trying to deflect the french no vote on the constitution away from him, so he's decided to make a lot of fuss about us.
blair is handling it fine for a change.
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hi
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16 Jun 2005, 22:18
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#4
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: UK EU rebate
1. The CAP policy (together with EU's fishery policy) is a waste of money and contributing to envirmental problems. (If anyone doesnt know about this, I will go more into detail (not for those who read The Sun ofc))
There is also weaknesses in the so called "structural funds" (roads beeing built in spain who's never going to be used etc) and EU's foregin aid (corruption from eu beurocrats, taking forever to be used properly etc).
2. Germany has paid wast sums of money to to EU (net contributions). However, the German economy is rather shite at the moment. Germany has a agreement with the EU to reduce its net contributions to around 30%.
3. Complaining about the CAP now seems to be a piss-poor exuse from Tony Blair&Co.
4. Chirac and Schröder had a meeting about a year ago were they agreed to lock the CAP untill 2013.
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
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<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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16 Jun 2005, 22:19
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#5
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
1. The CAP policy (together with EU's fishery policy) is a waste of money and contributing to envirmental problems. (If anyone doesnt know about this, I will go more into detail (not for those who read The Sun ofc))
There is also weaknesses in the so called "structural funds" (roads beeing built in spain who's never going to be used etc) and EU's foregin aid (corruption from eu beurocrats, taking forever to be used properly etc).
2. Germany has paid wast sums of money to to EU (net contributions). However, the German economy is rather shite at the moment. Germany has a agreement with the EU to reduce its net contributions to around 30%.
3. Complaining about the CAP now seems to be a piss-poor exuse from Tony Blair&Co.
4. Chirac and Schröder had a meeting about a year ago were they agreed to lock the CAP untill 2013.
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so what point are you making?
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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16 Jun 2005, 22:25
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#6
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BlueTuba
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,339
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
1. The CAP policy (together with EU's fishery policy) is a waste of money and contributing to envirmental problems. (If anyone doesnt know about this, I will go more into detail (not for those who read The Sun ofc))
There is also weaknesses in the so called "structural funds" (roads beeing built in spain who's never going to be used etc) and EU's foregin aid (corruption from eu beurocrats, taking forever to be used properly etc).
2. Germany has paid wast sums of money to to EU (net contributions). However, the German economy is rather shite at the moment. Germany has a agreement with the EU to reduce its net contributions to around 30%.
3. Complaining about the CAP now seems to be a piss-poor exuse from Tony Blair&Co.
4. Chirac and Schröder had a meeting about a year ago were they agreed to lock the CAP untill 2013.
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1. Think everyone agrees with that.
2. I think it's fair to say Germany's contribution to the EU is slightly excessive considering east Germany which has dragged Germany to about the middle of the EU ladder in terms of wealth.
3. Surely if it's such a shit policy any time is a good time to try and get rid of it.
4. Sadly for them, there are more than 2 member states in the EU
__________________
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
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16 Jun 2005, 22:27
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#7
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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,635
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Re: UK EU rebate
Yahwe's right, Chriac is being cunning. He's playing the anti-British card to get support back home and to try and move thought away from the fact the constitution died in France. He knows this is a no-go area, so now it makes us look totally unflexable and hindering Europe's progression. Say what you want about Chriac, he's clever at least.
As far as the rebate goes it could probably be well argued that since Britain is richer now (so i hear) than it was when Thatcher first fought for the rebate, it should probably be less.
But then you've still got the argument that we contribute more than France etc. Germany's still contributing waaay more than anyone else though.
Blair's right, the budget does need to be looked at. I'd be happy to give some of the rebate up if the CAP was reformed.
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16 Jun 2005, 22:45
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#8
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mmm lambs
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: London
Posts: 1,906
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by weeks
As far as the rebate goes it could probably be well argued that since Britain is richer now (so i hear) than it was when Thatcher first fought for the rebate, it should probably be less.
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Apparently at the time of the rebate we were the third poorest in Europe and now we are one of the richest.
I think part part of the problem may also be in the past we rejected calls for Germany and Holland to have rebates of their own though Holland have also rejected this recent budget on the grounds it isn't reducing their countribution.
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I drink therefore I am
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16 Jun 2005, 22:47
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#9
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J to the C to the A G E
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Scúnthorpe
Posts: 5,583
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Re: UK EU rebate
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4079316.stm
Per head the Netherlands is way out in front, but I couldn't be bothered looking for these figures.
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16 Jun 2005, 22:48
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 386
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
1. The CAP policy (together with EU's fishery policy) is a waste of money and contributing to envirmental problems. (If anyone doesnt know about this, I will go more into detail (not for those who read The Sun ofc))
There is also weaknesses in the so called "structural funds" (roads beeing built in spain who's never going to be used etc) and EU's foregin aid (corruption from eu beurocrats, taking forever to be used properly etc).
2. Germany has paid wast sums of money to to EU (net contributions). However, the German economy is rather shite at the moment. Germany has a agreement with the EU to reduce its net contributions to around 30%.
3. Complaining about the CAP now seems to be a piss-poor exuse from Tony Blair&Co.
4. Chirac and Schröder had a meeting about a year ago were they agreed to lock the CAP untill 2013.
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1. I'm sure most people are aware of this
2. The German's contribute the most to the EU as far as i'm aware, however i'm not sure of a reduction as i haven't really read around that so i can't comment on it
3. Why? The Frogs want us to get rid of the rebate but they don't want to get rid of what is effectively an equivalent to the rebate as they benefit the most from it. Chirac has just realised that he is very unpopular in France and keeping the benefits from the CAP will keep him in power for longer and prevent strikes from French farmers.
4. Yes true the CAP was agreed on to be kept in power until 2013. However if the EU is so determined to get rid of our rebate then i think that everyone, including the French, should agree to cutbacks, which includes getting rid of their stupid benefits from the CAP.
It also needs mentioning that including the rebate we still contribute nearly twice as much as France do towards the EU. Without the rebate it was a lot more, i heard about 10-15 times as much but i'm not too sure on that as i haven't really looked at the figures in depth.
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16 Jun 2005, 23:13
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#11
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King of The Fat Boys
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,331
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
1. The CAP policy (together with EU's fishery policy) is a waste of money and contributing to envirmental problems.
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The world's environmental problems would be a lot worse if Third World nations were given unrestricted access to our agricultural markets.
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They mostly come at night. Mostly.
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16 Jun 2005, 23:34
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#12
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
The world's environmental problems would be a lot worse if Third World nations were given unrestricted access to our agricultural markets.
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Why is that?
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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16 Jun 2005, 23:35
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#13
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: UK EU rebate
and ta for the anonymous neg-rep stating exactly nothing.
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16 Jun 2005, 23:39
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 386
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
The world's environmental problems would be a lot worse if Third World nations were given unrestricted access to our agricultural markets.
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That will never happen, i fail to see what your point is...
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17 Jun 2005, 00:02
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#15
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Dum Di Dum Di
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 858
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Why is that?
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Even more unnecessary shipping I guess.
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17 Jun 2005, 00:05
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#16
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
Even more unnecessary shipping I guess.
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probable massive desertification in africa due to a lack of any long-term planning, making it practically unlivable in everywhere and causing enormous death?
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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17 Jun 2005, 11:56
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#17
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: UK EU rebate
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4102228.stm
There's a chart halfway down this page that shows contributions to the eu in an easy way to grasp, do note that the UK figure is after the rebate and not before, and obviously these figures don't include the 'new members' but they're more parasitical than symbiotic.
EDIT - it's also in euros so without the rebate we'd contribute 7.2bn euro.
__________________
hi
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17 Jun 2005, 12:01
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#18
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King of The Fat Boys
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,331
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Why is that?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
probable massive desertification in africa due to a lack of any long-term planning, making it practically unlivable in everywhere and causing enormous death?
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Yes
Though I suppose I shouldn't smile about it :/
This is one of the strongest arguments in favour of the CAP which is rarely heard. Yes, a lot of money is spent on the CAP, but is this money really wasted if it helps prevent the environmental degredation of poor countries, mainly in Africa?
Also, due to the subsidies a lot of the world's poor would actually pay more for their agricultural products than they currently do. This is at our expense though.
__________________
They mostly come at night. Mostly.
Last edited by ChubbyChecker; 17 Jun 2005 at 12:56.
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17 Jun 2005, 15:33
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#19
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Filtheh
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 186
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Re: UK EU rebate
From the early repots i gathered the rebate was a policy set in motion many a year ago and the French are argueing it no longer applies, expired?
On the other point...
African nations who are agriculture dependent, which is the majority, produce cash crops and the environment effect of that is far worse as it stands, with poor techniques and poor income (due to the CAP and un-fair trading) for further investment effects such as desertification... however the chances are if that CAP were removed african farmers would produce more so more intensive farming, but better investment in techniques and knowledge goes a long way to preventing environment problems so arguements can go either way
Therefore the only benefits of the CAP are filling EU bureaucrats pockets with money and keeping EU farmers in business, creating higher prices on products for us, if it was a free market with no CAP EU farmers be reduced and we have lower cost food, "down with state intervention"
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Also, due to the subsidies a lot of the world's poor would actually pay more for their agricultural products than they currently do. This is at our expense though.
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I dont see how as the subsidies make African farmers cut costs and prices as far as they can to actually live and sell in the european and american trading blocs
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17 Jun 2005, 15:45
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 329
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
Can any of the non-uk people tell me what the argument about us not having it is? All we seem to hear in britain is we don't spend as much on farming and by god we're not going to contribute as much as the dutch or the germans. Theres mention of britians economy being stronger but i don't see what this has to do with a net GNP/head contribution. What do the various news in which ever country you are in say about all this?
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Frankly, Im really beginning to become a real UK fan. First not joining the damn euro, after that holding a referendum which forced the french to hold a referendum too, and now not giving up to uk rebate.
You guys are fantastic You really are saving our asses. The EU agricultural subsidarys are absurd and a disgrace. The Uk is the 2nd biggest nett payer in europe even with the rebate. Why should you take the rebate back, but the french should keep their stupid agricultural subsidarys???
bravo UK, don´t let the eurocrats mess around with you!
__________________
"Security is the essential roadblock to achieving the road map to peace."
--George W. Bush, July 25, 2003
Mankind is ready to enter the solar system
George W. Bush, in his speech about his space program
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17 Jun 2005, 15:51
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#21
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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,635
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Re: UK EU rebate
And I thought we were all murdering evil humanity-raping sub-human beings. I really think you should make your mind up Perle.
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17 Jun 2005, 16:03
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#22
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King of The Fat Boys
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,331
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filth
African nations who are agriculture dependent, which is the majority, produce cash crops and the environment effect of that is far worse as it stands, with poor techniques and poor income (due to the CAP and un-fair trading) for further investment effects such as desertification... however the chances are if that CAP were removed african farmers would produce more so more intensive farming, but better investment in techniques and knowledge goes a long way to preventing environment problems so arguements can go either way
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I think you're overestimating the level of technological innovation in the Third World.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filth
I dont see how as the subsidies make African farmers cut costs and prices as far as they can to actually live and sell in the european and american trading blocs
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Many of the world's poorest nations are net importers of food, not exporters. This is why the subsidies benefit them as they depress world prices. Yes, if the CAP were scrapped then they may well become net exporters therefore becoming richer even though they would pay more for their food but my point is still valid
__________________
They mostly come at night. Mostly.
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17 Jun 2005, 16:12
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#23
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Filtheh
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 186
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Many of the world's poorest nations are net importers of food, not exporters. This is why the subsidies benefit them as they depress world prices. Yes, if the CAP were scrapped then they may well become net exporters therefore becoming richer even though they would pay more for their food but my point is still valid
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To my knowledge most of the worlds poorest nations have subsistance farmers whom contribute nothing in terms of imports or exports. Though yes if CAP were abolished costs for food etcwould rise but only in line with incomes, reaching a new equilibrium. Forgive me if my economic knowledge is limited There is no doubt they would become net exporters because of the low cost production they have
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17 Jun 2005, 16:30
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#24
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filth
Therefore the only benefits of the CAP are filling EU bureaucrats pockets with money and keeping EU farmers in business, creating higher prices on products for us,
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clearly when you said 'higher prices' you actually meant 'lower prices' because you had bothered to do some research into food prices within the eu.
__________________
hi
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17 Jun 2005, 16:32
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#25
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4 5 6
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 168
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Re: UK EU rebate
red herring.
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17 Jun 2005, 16:32
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 386
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filth
Though yes if CAP were abolished costs for food etcwould rise but only in line with incomes, reaching a new equilibrium
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We're currently paying more than the global price of most foods because of CAP as all farmers are guaranteed a set price despite the excess food that is produced. Without the CAP the price of food would be more likely to go down and not up and there's not the element of protectionism that there is currently.
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17 Jun 2005, 20:01
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#27
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
This is one of the strongest arguments in favour of the CAP which is rarely heard. Yes, a lot of money is spent on the CAP, but is this money really wasted if it helps prevent the environmental degredation of poor countries, mainly in Africa?
Also, due to the subsidies a lot of the world's poor would actually pay more for their agricultural products than they currently do. This is at our expense though.
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Lets take it from the begining.
1) EU pays money to EU-farmers to produce food.
2) This leads to overproduction
3) Since this overproduction undermines prices, EU then buys the market surplus and stores this.
4) Agriculture in EU is not very eco-friendly, rather the oposite. This is due to several things, a) the industrializtion of production b) shipping of live animals over large distances (these animals brings with them bacterias, mad-cow shit etc) c) Large ammount of pesticides etc is used.
(And lets not forget the question: Why is it so important that German farmers should produce sugar?!?)
5) The spending of EU money is not over. To get rid of the surplus, they subsidize food produced in the EU, so it can be sold on the world-market.
This leads to disasters for farmers in the 3rd world. Just to bring up two examples: Dairy-farmers in Jamaica beeing forced to close, due to extremly cheap milk-powder from Denmark beeing imported. Its worth noting that Jamaica gets foreign aid from the EU. So EU gives with one hand, and destroys with the other hand.
The other exampel. African farmers having to close, due to extremly cheap dutch chicken beeing imported. The same also goes for candy, local south-african producers beeing outcompeted by (subsidiezed) goods.
So this leads to:
1) Taxpayers in the EU having to pay wast sums of money.
2) Overproduction
3) Destroying the income of farmers in the 3rd world
4) Incentives for inceasing production, whitch is not needed.
5) The less technological advanced production of food is, the better it is (generally speaking). Small scale is better than large scale, in terms of quality. Problem is that EU treats food as any other tradable goods.
6) European consumers pays for food which is not really good quality (like the thing Lidl call "milk" for instance, wtf is that? Poison??). Anybody here who's been sick after eating chicken or eggs lately?
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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17 Jun 2005, 20:33
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#28
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King of The Fat Boys
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,331
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Lets take it from the begining.
1) EU pays money to EU-farmers to produce food.
2) This leads to overproduction
3) Since this overproduction undermines prices, EU then buys the market surplus and stores this.
4) Agriculture in EU is not very eco-friendly, rather the oposite. This is due to several things, a) the industrializtion of production b) shipping of live animals over large distances (these animals brings with them bacterias, mad-cow shit etc) c) Large ammount of pesticides etc is used.
(And lets not forget the question: Why is it so important that German farmers should produce sugar?!?)
5) The spending of EU money is not over. To get rid of the surplus, they subsidize food produced in the EU, so it can be sold on the world-market.
This leads to disasters for farmers in the 3rd world. Just to bring up two examples: Dairy-farmers in Jamaica beeing forced to close, due to extremly cheap milk-powder from Denmark beeing imported. Its worth noting that Jamaica gets foreign aid from the EU. So EU gives with one hand, and destroys with the other hand.
The other exampel. African farmers having to close, due to extremly cheap dutch chicken beeing imported. The same also goes for candy, local south-african producers beeing outcompeted by (subsidiezed) goods.
So this leads to:
1) Taxpayers in the EU having to pay wast sums of money.
2) Overproduction
3) Destroying the income of farmers in the 3rd world
4) Incentives for inceasing production, whitch is not needed.
5) The less technological advanced production of food is, the better it is (generally speaking). Small scale is better than large scale, in terms of quality. Problem is that EU treats food as any other tradable goods.
6) European consumers pays for food which is not really good quality (like the thing Lidl call "milk" for instance, wtf is that? Poison??). Anybody here who's been sick after eating chicken or eggs lately?
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I agree with you pretty much. Have to take your word for what you say about the quality of the food, I haven't looked into that.
And yes, the way we produce food could be a lot more environmentally friendly than it currently is, what with all the pesticides and growth hormones and all the other shit we use. The way the Third World produces food is a lot more environmentally damaging though which is why I said what I did.
__________________
They mostly come at night. Mostly.
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18 Jun 2005, 13:21
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#29
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
I agree with you pretty much. Have to take your word for what you say about the quality of the food, I haven't looked into that.
And yes, the way we produce food could be a lot more environmentally friendly than it currently is, what with all the pesticides and growth hormones and all the other shit we use. The way the Third World produces food is a lot more environmentally damaging though which is why I said what I did.
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So I ask again, how exactly does producing food in africa degrade the ecology there? Its not really a convincing argument. There is plenty of areas in Africa who could be producing more food, but there is a difference in producing cash-crops intensivly, and producing mainly for a home market. Problem is, that this home market is more or less denied them. When a farmer can't sell his/her food on the local market, he has to go over to growing cash-crops or give up. The value of cash-crops have fallen drasticly the last 2-3 decades. If the farmers of Africa had money, they would have money to send their children to school. They would also be a souce for demand for the local industry and someone who could be paying taxes to the state (which again leads to improvment in health-services and infrastructure etc).
About quality of food, take salmon for instance. It hardly taste anything. Compare it with cod who's been living a natural life. The price of food is getting lower and lower, surely this means something to the quality.
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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18 Jun 2005, 13:46
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#30
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
About quality of food, take salmon for instance. It hardly taste anything. Compare it with cod who's been living a natural life. The price of food is getting lower and lower, surely this means something to the quality.
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in other words 'quality of animal feed' and 'quality of end food' are correlated? wow!
this is not about 'organic foods' or shit like that, it's about large companies cutting costs on basic levels. most places you can get good quality salmon. they say it's from alaska or whatever; it could have been bred in a sink and taste the same, so long as it was getting good feed. in fact, it'd be better from the sink because it wouldn't have been frozen as long
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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18 Jun 2005, 14:23
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#31
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King of The Fat Boys
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,331
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
So I ask again, how exactly does producing food in africa degrade the ecology there? Its not really a convincing argument.
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As has already been mentioned in this thread Third Worlders use slash and burn methods to produce their agricultural products, laying waste to acres and acres of land. Europeans may not be as environmentally friendly as they could be when producing food but at least we use more sustainable methods such as allowing fields to lie fallow every couple of years so that they can be used again after. Allowing Third Worlders to produce more crops would lead to a huge increase in deforestation and desertification.
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They mostly come at night. Mostly.
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18 Jun 2005, 16:15
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#32
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: UK EU rebate
Is desertification even a word? It sounds like something from a Dubya sketch on Dead Ringers.
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18 Jun 2005, 16:30
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#33
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share the <3
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Location: Location:
Posts: 2,709
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Re: UK EU rebate
Yes it is, it happens in deserts, specifically at teh edge of deserts. Ill never forget that since i said it occured in the middle of the desert on my mock gcse and got bollocked by my geography teacher since he'd specifically pointed out it occurs on the edges in a lesson i wasn't paying attention in.
Anyway the luxembourg pm sounded like a bit of a pratt.
__________________
Sophie is hotter than you
though ive gone off her now; the way Susanna Reid squirms around on sml is, however, awesome
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18 Jun 2005, 16:38
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#34
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: UK EU rebate
Luxembourg shouldn't even have a PM. It should have a town council of five people and be done with it.
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18 Jun 2005, 16:44
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#35
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King of The Fat Boys
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,331
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Is desertification even a word? It sounds like something from a Dubya sketch on Dead Ringers.
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I learnt it in GCSE Geography so it must be a word.
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They mostly come at night. Mostly.
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18 Jun 2005, 16:58
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#36
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King of The Fat Boys
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,331
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Re: UK EU rebate
And Nusselt, how can you desertify land that is in the middle of a desert, it's already desert!
I just made desertify up by the way, before you ask.
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They mostly come at night. Mostly.
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18 Jun 2005, 17:04
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#37
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Next goal wins!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: London
Posts: 5,406
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
About quality of food, take salmon for instance. It hardly taste anything. Compare it with cod who's been living a natural life. The price of food is getting lower and lower, surely this means something to the quality.
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i love salmon, much better than cod, especially smoked with lemon juice and all that jazz
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bastard bastard bastard bastard
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18 Jun 2005, 17:08
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#38
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
i love salmon, much better than cod, especially smoked with lemon juice and all that jizz
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18 Jun 2005, 17:39
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#39
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cynic
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bishop Auckland Co. Durham
Posts: 8,809
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Re: UK EU rebate
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lazy
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18 Jun 2005, 20:41
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#40
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
As has already been mentioned in this thread Third Worlders use slash and burn methods to produce their agricultural products, laying waste to acres and acres of land. Europeans may not be as environmentally friendly as they could be when producing food but at least we use more sustainable methods such as allowing fields to lie fallow every couple of years so that they can be used again after. Allowing Third Worlders to produce more crops would lead to a huge increase in deforestation and desertification.
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1) The 3rd world is not one country, nor one type of climate, terrain etc.
2) So is Africa. Chad and Nigeria is hugely different.
So I ask again, do you have an exampel of this?
Would Nigeria producing 30% more food make it into a desert? Shouldnt Europe be a desert by your logic?
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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18 Jun 2005, 21:08
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#41
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share the <3
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Location: Location:
Posts: 2,709
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Re: UK EU rebate
Most of the arguments seem to be along the lines of 'we demand you be as stupid as us and pay' although the leave the eu and set up a trading block with the commonwealth/america/outer mongolia are clearly nuts, 50% of our trade is done within the EU.
__________________
Sophie is hotter than you
though ive gone off her now; the way Susanna Reid squirms around on sml is, however, awesome
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19 Jun 2005, 12:28
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#42
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: UK EU rebate
the problem with desertification is thus:
Africans (those in the industrially undeveloped areas, Zhukov, not all of them) need food or money RIGHT NOW OR THEY DIE. Therefore, seeing as they have item 1: lots of land and require item 2: lots of food, they tear through item 1: lots of land without regard for the consequences, and justifiably so, because they need item 2: lots of food.
Fallow field rotation, wet climate, soil quality and so on has stopped this in Europe over history (although it was a problem until about the 1600s) and while most farmers are still sloppy about things (compared to Japanese farmers, say, who are frankly astonishing at producing excellent quality crop efficiently).
The CAP is unfair, and should be repealed. But if we do this before introducing some means of improving african farms and methods (we could give them the CAP for a few years to do this, in fact ), the environmental damage caused could be extremely severe and indeed make their situation far worse than it now is
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Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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19 Jun 2005, 12:42
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#43
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cynic
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bishop Auckland Co. Durham
Posts: 8,809
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Re: UK EU rebate
to be honest, the only way things would drasticaly improve would be for the whole EU to be torn down and to start it all again from scratch as what with each country trying to get a better deal for its citizens than anyone else, the sheer inefficiency (hello two parliaments... wtf???) and the sheer corruption of it all, nothing gets done anymore
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lazy
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19 Jun 2005, 13:55
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#44
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: UK EU rebate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
the problem with desertification is thus:
Africans (those in the industrially undeveloped areas, Zhukov, not all of them) need food or money RIGHT NOW OR THEY DIE. Therefore, seeing as they have item 1: lots of land and require item 2: lots of food, they tear through item 1: lots of land without regard for the consequences, and justifiably so, because they need item 2: lots of food.
Fallow field rotation, wet climate, soil quality and so on has stopped this in Europe over history (although it was a problem until about the 1600s) and while most farmers are still sloppy about things (compared to Japanese farmers, say, who are frankly astonishing at producing excellent quality crop efficiently).
The CAP is unfair, and should be repealed. But if we do this before introducing some means of improving african farms and methods (we could give them the CAP for a few years to do this, in fact ), the environmental damage caused could be extremely severe and indeed make their situation far worse than it now is
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1) Many africans have been in that position for decades.
2) Its not posible to grow more foodstuff in many places in africa, places like Somalia, Etiopia, Chad, Niger etc), becouse of a lack of water.
3) The ordinary farmer produces more food than he/she needs. They want to sell this on the market. But on the local market, there is frozen chickens from holland costing almost nothing, due to CAP.
4) So instead they are forced to produce cash-crops. And as the price of cash-crops are next to nothing, it doesnt bring them much money.
5) Cutting the CAP and reducing the debt of the african countries wil mean that: They can now produce food-products for a local market. This can lead to some local food-proccesing industry.
They can cut out producing coffe and cacoa, and use this land to produce food for the local-market. It doesnt have to mean that there will be more land used to producing foodstuff.
Most countries should strive to be produce more or less what they consume themselfs. This will lead to less transportation and desertification. One tool to archive this is to have sensible tarifs on foodstuff.
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<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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19 Jun 2005, 17:22
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#45
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: UK EU rebate
nothing will help africa until its people no longer tolerate leaders who spend their money on guns instead of food.
you can not save a people from themselves
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hi
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