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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 15:25   #1
Ste
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can someone help me win an argument with racists

Basically they are coming out with a lot of anti-muslim comments and saying "but muslims aren't a race they are a religion so therefore I'm not racist"

I can't seem to be able to persuade them that they are
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 15:29   #2
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

My Indonesian part of the family, the biggest proportion of it, hate Islam or anything closely related to it. They don't really give a shit if people consider their points of view as being racism.

I'm afraid I can't help you.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 15:34   #3
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Exclamation Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Some people hide their racism behind these kinds of concepts, such as religion/immigration etc. If you feel that's what they're doing, then say so. But if they're simply making a legitimate argument against Islam, then fair play to them.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 15:41   #4
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Some people hide their racism behind these kinds of concepts, such as religion/immigration etc. If you feel that's what they're doing, then say so. If they're making a legitimate argument against Islam, then fair play to them.
Their "arguments" are:
"I hate ****ing muslims, i wish they would all blow themselves up, preferably not in our country."
and
"Muslims are ****ing evil"
and
"I f*ck*ng hate muslims with a passion, not because of where they're from, but purely because THEY ARE trying to turn England into a muslim country."
etc.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 15:42   #5
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Exclamation Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Then they're obviously being idiotic and I doubt you need any help from me in highlighting why.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 15:42   #6
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Are they aware that there is a difference between Islamic extremists and moderate Muslims?
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 15:45   #7
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Then they're obviously being idiotic and I doubt you need any help from me in highlighting why.
No but we've got to the point where we're arguing whether it's racist or not.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 15:45   #8
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Some people are already accepting that the word 'Muslim' is an identity.

Just like Jewish. It's an identity. Not just a race/religion.


But to say 'being racist to a Muslim', I don't see how that works...
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 15:46   #9
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Exclamation Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
No but we've got to the point where we're arguing whether it's racist or not.
Why? I'm not really sure it makes any difference whether it's racism or not; it's patently hateful, bigotted rubbish. Whether this includes some element of racism is rather irrelevant and is pretty much splitting hairs imo.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 15:48   #10
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

I think under legislation Muslims, Sikhs, etc have some sort of status as "a race" in terms of discrimination.

However, clearly they're not a race in a traditional sense. There are plenty of types of bigotry / stupidity which aren't racist (e.g. homophobia). Of course, as MM says, a lot of people are dishonest on this subject.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 15:55   #11
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Why? I'm not really sure it makes any difference whether it's racism or not; it's patently hateful, bigotted rubbish. Whether this includes some element of racism is rather irrelevant and is pretty much splitting hairs imo.
If it's 'racist' it's against forum rules and it's one of the moderators saying it.
Although I've noticed that the forum rules are currently inaccessable so i can't check the wording...
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 15:57   #12
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Ste,

Islamophobia.


It's similar to Anti-semitism.... in a way.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 16:01   #13
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Exclamation Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
If it's 'racist' it's against forum rules and it's one of the moderators saying it.
This sounds like a really weird and shitty forum tbh. What is it exactly?
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 16:09   #14
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
This sounds like a really weird and shitty forum tbh. What is it exactly?
erm, you ARE aware moderators on THIS forum have made exactly the same sort of biggoted anti-religious commentry before right ?
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 16:12   #15
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
THEY ARE trying to turn England into a muslim country."
etc.
Don't you agree with that comment though?

I don't actually hate Muslim people however, but I often wonder what the world would be like if there was no Islam...

9/11, 7/7, Israel/Palestine, Kashmir, Algeria/France, Turkey/Greece, Somalia, Algeria, Chechen rebels, The Beslan School Siege etc...

In fact, is there anything going on in the world right now that doesn't involve Islam?...

Maybe if we tried understanding things from their point of view we wouldn't have these atrocities?

Is it our fault?
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 16:14   #16
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Exclamation Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
erm, you ARE aware moderators on THIS forum have made exactly the same sort of biggoted anti-religious commentry before right ?
Against Muslims?
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 16:16   #17
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
In fact, is there anything going on in the world right now that doesn't involve Islam?...
A lot of the conflicts you listed were national conflicts (Turkey/Greece has bugger all to do with 'Islam' for instance). But anyway in answer to your question - yes. Northern Ireland, Nepal, Colombia, North Korea, China-Taiwan, land issues in Zimbabwae, etc, etc.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 16:18   #18
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Exclamation Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
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In fact, is there anything going on in the world right now that doesn't involve Islam?...
There's a darts night at the pub across the road.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 16:19   #19
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

you're forum cheating on us with a bunch of slags!

Personally i think the use of the word 'race' in any of these sorts of arguments is a little absurd, you're organising people along some sort of arbitary trait and saying its not ok to be hateful against them but it is ok to be hateful against these other people. As blasto says use islamophobic.



Quote:
Originally Posted by arachnidman

Don't you agree with that comment though?

I don't actually hate Muslim people however, but I often wonder what the world would be like if there was no Islam...

9/11, 7/7, Israel/Palestine, Kashmir, Algeria/France, Turkey/Greece, Somalia, Algeria, Chechen rebels, The Beslan School Siege etc...

In fact, is there anything going on in the world right now that doesn't involve Islam?...

Maybe if we tried understanding things from their point of view we wouldn't have these atrocities?

Is it our fault?
'White europeans' have ****ed up this world in more ways than islam could possibly imagine, are you going to cull yourself?
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 16:24   #20
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Against Muslims?
not against muslims.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 16:33   #21
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Exclamation Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

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Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
not against muslims.
I somehow doubt that anti-religion sentiments on here have been expressed in precisely those terms of with that amount of vehemence.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 16:38   #22
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

'remind' them that the law considers them racists.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 16:49   #23
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
'remind' them that the law considers them racists.
They're complaining about 'muslims taking over the country'. That would just be added to their argument...

MM - It's a forest forum... Football fans... What kind of opinion do you expect?

Spiderman - no, I don't agree with that comment. A handful of muslims may be trying to turn the country into a muslim country but generalising it is stupid.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 16:54   #24
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
They're complaining about 'muslims taking over the country'. That would just be added to their argument...
only if black people, jews, gay people, transvestites and yellow people are 'taking over the country' too because the one legal definition covers the lot.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 17:56   #25
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

The term "Racism" is just about as ignornant as those who sling it around as if it means something.

With regards to humans, there is only ONE race; Human. You can break it up into country of orgin all you want, or color of skin, but god damn it, how can someone be so insipid as to adoped such a low-brow, and miserably thought out word as "Racism"?

Bah...what am I talking about? How dare I contradict the dictionary, that bible of semantic command.

Be a racist, sling the word around, believe in it, and I will remain with my opinion, laughing at all of you who dance on its strings.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 18:09   #26
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
A handful of muslims may be trying to turn the country into a muslim country
Ah haa!

So the statement "Muslims are trying to convert the country" is true right? This handful are in fact muslim.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 18:14   #27
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Basically they are coming out with a lot of anti-muslim comments and saying "but muslims aren't a race they are a religion so therefore I'm not racist"

I can't seem to be able to persuade them that they are
Why bother arguing with racists?
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 18:15   #28
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
Ah haa!

So the statement "Muslims are trying to convert the country" is true right? This handful are in fact muslim.
That's not what was said or implied.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 18:16   #29
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
Why bother arguing with racists?
Racists with conflicting opinions.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 19:05   #30
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Basically they are coming out with a lot of anti-muslim comments and saying "but muslims aren't a race they are a religion so therefore I'm not racist"

I can't seem to be able to persuade them that they are
tbh i wouldnot call them racists either.
Many other words cross my mind tho
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 19:08   #31
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
'remind' them that the law considers them racists.
maybe the english law.
But in dutch a racist would only have a thing against ppl of a certain RACE, and not religion.

Hating ppl for a religion would for our law be discrimination, not rasism.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 19:11   #32
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

You can't win an argument with them. Hating Muslims is a personal choice they have made for vague emotional reasons. There's no argument you can attack that with if they don't make some sort of logic based statement like "I hate Muslims because when they jump my dishwasher breaks." To which you could then provide evidence to clearly and unambiguously show that a jumping Muslim is not the cause of the dishwasher breaking.

I suggest getting them to make a statement you can refute with evidence, if they don't, or if they do and you clearly have shown them wrong but they continue to hold their ground you can just call them idiots and move on.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 20:47   #33
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Can't blame people for not liking Muslims at the moment.

Even Hindu's can stand them, its not just the White Europeans & Americans who are geting a bit peeved.

Indians ie Hindus hate Muslims more than we can imagine, moreso even if Bin Laden raped the Queen.

Odd thing is their Religion is a direct decendent from Chirstianity. afaik. Just a book along the same lines written about 400 years after about some bloke called Mohammed. In my opinion he can't be that unique. There are thousands of them in the Uk now.

Any how, feck religion, be agnostic. Assume there is a higher power but dont go all out to label yourself in believing in an invisible superhero who came from a time when there were no cameras to record the evidence, and painters were shyt, so their is no accurate depiction. And the amount of scribes out there. few and far between. Bible does not work therefore Koran can't work.

Etc went off a bit there.
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Unread 21 Sep 2005, 21:01   #34
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Islam is moronic and has a strong negative effect on the world. I dont understand how this is even remotely 'racist'.

"Racism" has went from being a legitimate term into a worthless non-concept used to denote anyone who doesnt accept some bizzaro relativist view of global equality. There are no real criteria governing its use, and you can pretty much write off any sentence containing it as meaningless.

Last edited by Nodrog; 21 Sep 2005 at 21:06.
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Unread 22 Sep 2005, 03:31   #35
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Whats nod replying to?
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Unread 22 Sep 2005, 03:36   #36
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Jesus Christ, shut up Nodrog
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Unread 22 Sep 2005, 06:57   #37
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Rational arguments never trump emotional ones. If you disagree with this then you have never been married.
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Unread 22 Sep 2005, 08:04   #38
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
Why bother arguing with racists?
To challenge their views (if it's a general forum) and also to make them think about what they're saying.
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Unread 22 Sep 2005, 08:10   #39
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

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Originally Posted by Arachnidman
Don't you agree with that comment though?

I don't actually hate Muslim people however, but I often wonder what the world would be like if there was no Islam...

9/11, 7/7, Israel/Palestine, Kashmir, Algeria/France, Turkey/Greece, Somalia, Algeria, Chechen rebels, The Beslan School Siege etc...

In fact, is there anything going on in the world right now that doesn't involve Islam?...

Maybe if we tried understanding things from their point of view we wouldn't have these atrocities?

Is it our fault?
Christians have caused more trouble I would imagine.
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Unread 22 Sep 2005, 10:01   #40
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Re: can someone help me win an argument with racists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Basically they are coming out with a lot of anti-muslim comments and saying "but muslims aren't a race they are a religion so therefore I'm not racist"

I can't seem to be able to persuade them that they are
to answer the thread title direclty, the answer is generally no. The whole thing about racism is that it is irrational. Unfortunately we only have rational arguments, which irrational people tend to ignore. Incidentally they are more bigoted than racist, since they are right that Islam is not a race.
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