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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 01:53   #1
s|k
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There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051207/D8EBN0Q00.html

It's an occupational hazard, the plus is that you aren't punished until you die, the negative is that you suffer forever (horribly hopefully).


I hate cops, I don't care about their stress and I don't care that they're a necessary evil. Nobody forced them into that job.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 01:56   #2
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

to be fair his hands were tied, reading that article.
there was little else he -could- do
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 01:56   #3
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
According to a witness, the man frantically ran down the aisle of the Boeing 757, flailing his arms, while his wife tried to explain that he was mentally ill and had not taken his medication.

The passenger indicated there was a bomb in his bag and was confronted by air marshals but ran off the aircraft, Doyle said.

The marshals went after him and ordered him to get down on the ground, but he did not comply and was shot when he apparently reached into the bag, Doyle said.
COMPLETELY UNJUSTIFIED! SACK THEM ALL!
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 01:57   #4
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

It would be swell,
To see some folks burn in hell.
But when they go,
It's just as pleasent to know
That the dead only quickly decay.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 03:59   #5
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

To be honest I have to agree that the marshal's hands were tied.
If the guy really DID have a bomb, he'd look pretty silly in the ensuing federal prosecution saying "yeah well this woman claiming to be his wife said he was only mentally ill".

Shouting that you have a bomb on a plane is a surefire way to get yourself into serious trouble in the current climate, mentally ill or not.
His wife should have made sure he had his medication before boarding the flight - if she knew he hadn't, then why the hell did she still let him on board?

It's always tragic when an innocent person is killed, but in this case it was much more justified than the white brazillian in a t-shirt "asian suicide bomber in a winter jacket" who our own moronic police managed to shoot.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 09:30   #6
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Makes me wonder why you take a mentally ill husband who acts weird at times, into a plane without making sure he had his medication, while everybody who reads papers or watches tv KNOWS security is utterly strict.

Easy to blame cops, aint it, but what if your loved ones die in a terrorist attack and the marshalls didnot step in cause a woman claimed her husband is just a bit mentally ill:P?
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 13:33   #7
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

if you really did think someone was loaded up with explosives would you really shoot at him?
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 14:00   #8
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

If it was anything like the UK incident, they'd be aiming for the head.
The other thing is that the idea of bullets setting off explosives is mostly urban legend - it can be done, but it's much like the old hollywood trick of shooting the petrol tank of a car to blow it up; in real life you're better off shooting a hole in it and flicking a match at what comes out, because the chances of it igniting are minute.

Most explosives in use today are stable - you don't want to be carrying around something that can be set off by a bit of a knock in a backpack/hand luggage - because if it did it would almost certainly go off before you got to the target. This is why the failed london bombers (and presumably the other ones too) had explosive detonators, as it requires a bit more than a bit of string and a match to set these things off.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 14:04   #9
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

I really can't be mad at this cop. NOONE wants to be the cop that DIDN'T shoot. SO its a lose, lose. i would rather lose and live. I doubt he was thinking like this, but ofc his natural reaction was to deplete and chance of anyone being harmed. Not a good example of idiot cops. There are much better examples of cops bein g idiots. Like that time in NewYork cops shot a guy with no gun 46 times. Now thats stupid.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 14:31   #10
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Most explosives in use today are stable - you don't want to be carrying around something that can be set off by a bit of a knock in a backpack/hand luggage - because if it did it would almost certainly go off before you got to the target. This is why the failed london bombers (and presumably the other ones too) had explosive detonators, as it requires a bit more than a bit of string and a match to set these things off.
does 'most explosives in use today' include the kind of stuff you make out of fertilizer in your crazy guy basement lab?

i certainly agree that any military grade or commercially available explosives will be stable, and likely a well-planned terrorist event will involve stable ones as well. but i can't imagine anyone thought that crazy dude here was a part of a 'well-planned terrorist event', and my money would be on nitro-glycerin based home-made explosives not being gunfire-stable.

but it's not my area so i really couldn't say anything with confidence.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 14:58   #11
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

He wasnt 'innocent', and shooting him was probably the correct option. Anything else would have been shockingly irresponsible. If you have good reason to believe someone that is carrying a bomb (which they apparently did, according to that article), then you dont let them run through a crowded airport. That's just common sense.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 15:40   #12
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

British military forces are known for being somewhat less trigger happy than our American allies - that is a generalisation, but surely you must admit its based on facts.

We're trained in the UK to warn once, then shoot. If a law enforcement officer or soldier believes someone to be a threat to their own life or the lives of those around them, a warning is shouted. Usually something along the lines of "Armed Police, halt!" - there is no stated phrase that should be used, but it should be short and to the point. If the suspect / threat does not respond then legally we are allowed to shoot. Be that shoot to kill or shoot to injure - shoot to kill is the first option as it instantly eliminates the risk posed by the suspect.

This post is based purely on the British way of doing things, the way I was taught how to respond in situations like that. I'd imagine American doctrine on the subject is very similar.

In short. I'd have shot him too. Anyone who blames the guy have a serious think about what they would have done in that situation - a man claming to have a bomb running into a crowded terminal. Options here are limited and instinctively posting in disgust like s|k seems to have done is, although understandable for an 'outsider', is little help.


Another possibility is, that he actually was mentally ill and believed the backpack had a bomb planted into it. He ran off the plane stating there was a bomb in the backpack as he was trying to get it off the plane to save the passengers. I'd still have shot him as this would simply have been a possibility and the risk couldn't have been taken, but it's an option worth thinking about.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 15:43   #13
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

given that he was off the plane, I'm going to revise my stance.

It would make sense to stop him before he got back to somewhere crowded, however you could. In the situation described, I'd still favor shooting at the legs over the head though. If he is a terrorist, maybe he knows something worthwhile. Maybe he actually put a bomb somewhere, in which case it might be handy to find out where before it blows up. Or maybe he's just a nut.

Anyway, Fox Newsing, this being the first shooting by Air Marshalls since 9/11 (did they shoot anyone on 9/11?) it's hard to criticize.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 15:45   #14
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

I'm reserving judement for the moment as the story is probably nonsense. take a look at the British shooting where the police lied their arses off to cover up what they had done. In the coming days and weeks the true facts will emerage and it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't even have a bag...
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 15:52   #15
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiddy
If the suspect / threat does not respond then legally we are allowed to shoot.
what a curiously inaccurate phrase
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 15:56   #16
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
given that he was off the plane, I'm going to revise my stance.
It would make sense to stop him before he got back to somewhere crowded, however you could. In the situation described, I'd still favor shooting at the legs over the head though.
Quote:
The marshals went after him and ordered him to get down on the ground, but he did not comply and was shot when he apparently reached into the bag, Doyle said.
They shot him when he reached into his bag. Aiming anywhere other than the head would have been inappropriate in these circumstances.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 16:10   #17
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
what a curiously inaccurate phrase
Ok, situation.

I'm outside the barracks on gate duty. I have a rifle. A man begins running towards me shouting he has a bomb in his backpack. I respond shouting "Halt." He does not. I can, if I wish, issue a further warning. "Halt, or I'll shoot". He does not. I shoot.

I give this as evidence in a civilian court (as it was a civilian who I killed).

Other than civil action which his family could take against me, which would fall down as I issued him warnings, then action is not taken against me.

I'd assume that the Air Marshalls in the US have similar protection - they can shoot, as long as sufficient warning is issued and they believe that a threat is posed by the individual.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 18:41   #18
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Exclamation Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
does 'most explosives in use today' include the kind of stuff you make out of fertilizer in your crazy guy basement lab?
Yes.

Some of the more common homemade explosives are isomers of acetone peroxide* which aren't very stable but have the advantage of being easily synthesized from readily-available chemicals (if you're willing to accept the very real risk of blowing yourself up... er, prematurely).

Stability is somewhat relative, though. Commercial and military grade explosives have to have long shelf lives, can get transported long distances over rough roads, can get baked in quonset huts, etc.



*Affectionately dubbed 'The Mother of Satan' by Palestinian bomb makers.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 19:12   #19
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Justified.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 19:28   #20
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rids
Justified.
They have nonlethal options that they're chosing not to equip with.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 19:53   #21
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Mentally ill people who dont take their medication can be very funny or very frightening.

People with disorders like that should not be allowed on aircraft without their medication.

How you would enforce this, i have no idea, but id love to see them try.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 19:57   #22
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

I don't think its fair to say you hate all police officers because they're police officers. Its stupid to generalise a profession and not see the people that are the police officers.

s|k, you're a retard. I think thats what you meant to say when you posted "I'm a retard" instead of all that nonsense about the shooting.

Keep it short and succint in future.

Although not a desirable incident, it was the right course of action to take, the threat is otherwise too high if you choose not to take action. Besides, its only one person, you don't moan about all the other people dying everyday everywhere so why are you bothered about this one insignificant man that you didn't know?
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 20:06   #23
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
Besides, its only one person, you don't moan about all the other people dying everyday everywhere so why are you bothered about this one insignificant man that you didn't know?
Words fail me.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 20:16   #24
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Words fail me.
No, literacy fails you.

Alcohol is at fault, or more specifically your chemical addiction to it.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 20:17   #25
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
I don't think its fair to say you hate all police officers because they're police officers. Its stupid to generalise a profession and not see the people that are the police officers.
I don't agree with s|k on this particular one, but I disagree that it's always wrong to generalise about a profession. I dislike the police for what they are. They have pledged to uphold the law no matter how rotten or unjust that law may be. They are there (to an extent) to defend the status quo. And that's why I dislike them.

It's not a personal thing. I have police officers in my (extended) family and I have met very friendly police officers. But that changes nothing.

However, in this case if I was on a jury I would never vote to imprison someone who shot someone in these circumstances (not that it would likely get to trial, but you know what I mean). It's still a tragedy though - this person was far from "inisignificant" - no one is.
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 20:36   #26
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
s|k, you're a retard. I think thats what you meant to say when you posted "I'm a retard" instead of all that nonsense about the shooting.

Keep it short and succint in future
Make me.

Here's a song I wrote just for you:

Cops are retarded. They're a bunch of power hungry idiots.
Couldn't find a job, like to be in power.
Cops are retarded, retarded, retarded, and so is KaneED.
They like to tell people what to doooooo
They don't mind violating their human dignitieeeeeeee.
Cops are retarded and no help to anyone at all.

Chorus:

Cops are retarded, retarded, retarded, and so is KaneED.
Cops are retarded, retarded, retarded, and so is KaneED.
Cops are retarded, retarded, retarded, and so is KaneED.

Cops are retarded. They'rea a bunch of power hungry idiots.
They have no skills, produce no goods.
Cops are retarded, retarded, retarded, and so is KaneED.
They flunked schooooooooooooooool
Like to use violence because they're toooooooooooooooooooools
Cops are retarded and no help to anyone at all.

Chorus
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Unread 8 Dec 2005, 20:48   #27
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Whats the tune for it?
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Unread 9 Dec 2005, 00:09   #28
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiddy
Whats the tune for it?
It goes like this:

dooootataaatatattatadooooo
doodooodadadattaataodooo


and the chorus is like:

dooodaadooooooo
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Unread 9 Dec 2005, 01:05   #29
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Paging Cubass to post #2968903
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Unread 9 Dec 2005, 03:09   #30
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

I think s|k would feel much safer in a society where there were no police, no one to uphold the law.
Because that would work.


Edit: Practically speaking. As in, if all those despised police officers went on holiday, or to hell, or became goat herders.

Last edited by JamMak; 9 Dec 2005 at 03:15.
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Unread 9 Dec 2005, 03:23   #31
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamMak
I think s|k would feel much safer in a society where there were no police, no one to uphold the law.
Because that would work.


Edit: Practically speaking. As in, if all those despised police officers went on holiday, or to hell, or became goat herders.
actually you mean dante. (for twas he who said it)

I find it curious that dante always avoids criticism.

an issue i shall remedy when we meet in a few hours.
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Unread 9 Dec 2005, 04:53   #32
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Yes I said I hope they go to hell after they die. I never said anything about jail because, as is obvious from the uproar in this thread, that shooting was 'justified.' What's not justified however is actually choosing to be a cop with the knowledge that you'll eventually might end up in a position where you shoot a harmless person. In fact, I'd say it's damning.
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Unread 9 Dec 2005, 05:15   #33
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

I suggest we all go over to s|k's house and steal all his possessions, as him then having ot think about phoning the police for help would put him into an infinite circle of contradictions, which hopefully will result in a black hole forming and swallowing him up.
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Unread 9 Dec 2005, 06:45   #34
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiddy
posting in disgust like s|k seems to have done is, mentally ill I'd still have shot him , it's an option worth thinking about.
I totally agree.
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Unread 9 Dec 2005, 06:54   #35
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Yes I said I hope they go to hell after they die. What's not justified however is actually choosing to be a librarian with the knowledge that you'll eventually might end up in a position where you give a boring book to a harmless person. In fact, I'd say it's damning.
Again, I find myself in total agreement.
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Unread 9 Dec 2005, 11:36   #36
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamMak
Edit: Practically speaking. As in, if all those despised police officers went on holiday, or to hell, or became goat herders.
Quite obviously, if all the police suddenly disappeared overnight society would objectively be a worse place to be in the next day (well, for most people - if you're someone about to be arresed then probably not). However, this is completely irrelevent as no-one (as far as I am aware) is calling for an immediate disbandment of the police.

Similarly it is quite possible to be opposed to the idea of the welfare state (or a number of other things - say heroin, the stock market, banking systems, etc) but to still realise that an overnight withdrawl would be totally disastrous.

Besides, it's easy to imagine a different kind of police (or law enforcement body) - the type of police force we have now has hardly been with us for all of time.
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Unread 9 Dec 2005, 11:47   #37
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Again, I find myself in total agreement.
That's really funny. Librarians would never give you a 'boring' book though. A librarian will give you just the kind of information you need in just the right form of media. Now let's talk about being a D.D.A. and ruining peoples good years on earth by putting them in incarceration for victimless crimes....I wonder what kind of eternal surprise you'd discover in my imaginary afterlife.
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Unread 9 Dec 2005, 12:16   #38
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

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Originally Posted by horn
were you not in the marines ?
(no i'm not a huge fan of the police either)
I obviously excuse myself from terrible punishments in my own fantasies. I probably could muster up some sort of inadequate defense if you really push me...
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Unread 9 Dec 2005, 12:40   #39
JonnyBGood
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
when i was really young i cried after killing some ants, i think.
What the hell? Killing ants on holidays is one of my favourite childhood memories.
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Unread 9 Dec 2005, 12:55   #40
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Re: There is a special hell waiting for cops who shoot innocents dead

No, it was more like killing termites to be perfectly honest.
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