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Unread 11 Mar 2006, 16:49   #1
Flavius
 
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Milosevic found dead in his cell

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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic has died in the detention centre at The Hague tribunal.

The tribunal said he was found dead in his cell on Saturday morning and that although the cause was not yet clear, there was no indication of suicide.

Mr Milosevic, 64, had been on trial at the UN war crimes tribunal for genocide and other war crimes since 2001.

A full autopsy will now be carried out on Mr Milosvevic, who had high blood pressure and a heart condition.

Last month the tribunal rejected a request by the former president to go to Russia for medical treatment.


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I hope that with his death an era will also end in Serbia, I hope that those ruling Serbia will stop the continuation of his politics

G Kasbergu, Pristina, Kosovo


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Milosevic dead: reaction

The tribunal has ordered an inquiry into the death.

"Milosevic was found lifeless on his bed in his cell at the United Nations detention unit," the tribunal said in a statement.

"The guard immediately alerted the detention unit officer in command and the medical officer. The latter confirmed that Slobodan Milosevic was dead."

'Punished already'

Mr Milosevic faced charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity for his alleged central role in the wars in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo during the 1990s.


He was determined to continue fighting his case

Milosevic lawyer, Steven Kay QC


Milosevic's lawyer speaks

He also faced genocide charges over the 1992-95 Bosnia war, in which 200,000 people died.

Mr Milosevic was in office for 13 years until 2000.

European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana said he hoped his death would help Serbia to come to terms with its past and allow it to look to the future.

Mothers and widows of Muslims killed in Srebrenica during the Bosnian war said they regretted that Mr Milosevic's death meant he would never face justice for the killings.

"However, it seems that God punished him already," said Hajra Catic of the Association of Srebrenica mothers.

Health problems

Mr Milosevic's brother Borislav was quoted by Interfax news agency as saying the war crimes court was "entirely responsible" for his death.


CHARGES AGAINST MILOSEVIC
Genocide, relating to the massacre in Srebrenica, Bosnia
Crimes against humanity, relating to Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo
Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, relating to Bosnia and Croatia
Violations of the laws or customs of war, relating to Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo


Full war crimes charges

The former president had been ill for some time, and his trial was interrupted last year because of health problems.

His lawyer told BBC News 24 that Mr Milosevic would not have committed suicide because he was determined to complete his trial.

"He said to me a few weeks ago, I haven't fought this case for as long as I have with any intention to do any harm to myself," Steven Kay said.

Both the former Serbian leader's parents committed suicide.
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Unread 11 Mar 2006, 17:12   #2
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

oh well
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Unread 11 Mar 2006, 17:15   #3
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

Was he a Planetarion player too?
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Unread 11 Mar 2006, 17:38   #4
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

It doesn't look overly suspicious to me, given his medical conditions.
There'll probably be some report criticising the prison officers for not noticing he was having a heart attack or some such, but that'll be it.
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Unread 11 Mar 2006, 17:40   #5
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

You should have had more sex with him
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Unread 11 Mar 2006, 17:53   #6
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

Very few will mourn his passing in the free world.
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Unread 11 Mar 2006, 18:26   #7
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

no huge loss to be honest
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Unread 11 Mar 2006, 18:32   #8
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4796704.stm


Quote:
Originally Posted by NICO VARKEVISSER, SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC FREEDOM CENTRE

It is clear that they have killed him.

This is an outrage. Milosevic was kidnapped from Belgrade and illegally extradited.

The real culprits, murderers and killers are in Brussels and in The Hague.
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Unread 11 Mar 2006, 18:35   #9
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

I opened my mailbox to this fairly balanced, reasoned response to these events.
Quote:
Statement on the Death of Slobodan Milosevic

The International Committee For the Defence of Slobodan Milosevic condemns
the deliberate refusal of the fascist Hague tribunal to honour all
civilized codes of decency and law which have resulted in the death of
President Slobodan Milosevic in their hands today, March 11, 2006. Their
actions are tantamount to the murder of a man who stood as a symbol of
resistance to the New World Order and a symbol of and fighter for the
independence and soverereignty of the peoples of Yugoslavia and for social
justice in the world. This was his only crime.

We demand that there be an international, independent enquiry into the
circumstances and cause of his death and that his family, his party and
his supporters be party to that enquiry.

We also demand the right of his wife and family to attend his funeral
without fear of persecution, arrest or any other impediment to their right
to honour their beloved husband, comrade and father.

To the people of Yugoslavia we offer our profound sympathies. Yet, though
he is no longer with us in body, his ceaseless courage, his determination
to show the world the truth about the aggression by the western powers
against Yugoslavia, his spirit of resistance to the new fascism, and his
constant belief in the strength and spirit of the people, will forever
light the darkness into which the world has descended. We salute him and
will forever thank and honour him.

Christopher Black
Chair, Legal Committee
and Vice-Chair ICDSM
255-744-666-972
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Unread 11 Mar 2006, 18:38   #10
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I opened my mailbox to this fairly balanced, reasoned response to these events.
At least Zhukov has hobbies ...
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Unread 11 Mar 2006, 18:42   #11
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

Are the International Committee For the Defence of Slobodan Milosevic akin to Holocaustt deniers do you think?
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Unread 11 Mar 2006, 18:48   #12
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
Are the International Committee For the Defence of Slobodan Milosevic akin to Holocaustt deniers do you think?
in that they both seem 'somewhat detached from reality', yes.
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 00:10   #13
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
no big ting
Fixed. In a ghetto manner.
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 00:21   #14
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
Are the International Committee For the Defence of Slobodan Milosevic akin to Holocaustt deniers do you think?

Depends on what context you're taking, there is nothing wrong with having people come to your defence, i welcome it for anyone and everyone, it is afterall what lawyers essentially do. No rational person could have any problems with the concept of the ICDSM, i can't speak about the members themselves since i don't know them (and i doubt anyone here does) but they probably do contain, to whatever extent, elements that take a shall we say non-conformist view on recent history. Assuming Dante was being sarcastic i don't really see what other pov he expected solbodobodan's supporters to take
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 03:11   #15
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

The difference is 'belief'.

'belief' is a curious thing.

With rational thought and logic there is no need for belief. Why would there be? I can understand that the earth is a spinning sphere which orbits a sphere of hot gas. The rotation of the earth means that the light given off by the sphere of hot gas will only be visable from one point on the earth for a limited period of time.

I do not need to believe that the sun will rise.

Rationally and logically I can understand the process. Thus if the sun 'fails' to rise, I can have the courage to try to understand why that failure has occured.

All lawyers are rational beasts. It is logical to consider evidence before reaching a conclusion. To that extent the legal system or 'due process' is actually much more important than the end result (guilty or not guilty).

The very act of believing is antithetical to rational thought.

It is unnecessary.

A lawyer would defend Mr Milosevic to the full of course. The point is that no lawyer would ever bother with the question of whether he did or did not 'believe' Mr Milosevic.

The difference between a defence lawyer and the ICDSM is huge. They stand at polar opposites. The ICDSM believe that Mr Milosevic was innocent. There might indeed be other people who believe that Mr Milosevic was guilty.

To a lawyer all this belief is absurd, childish-foolish.

All that matters is due process. There is no such thing as truth (belief). There is only the conclusions we can reach having properly analysed the facts.
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 07:00   #16
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

good point, nicely said
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 10:35   #17
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
good point, nicely said

it was a yahwe post:

what do you expect?
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 11:33   #18
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Slayer
it was a yahwe post:

what do you expect?
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 18:44   #19
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Slayer
it was a yahwe post:

what do you expect?
Crap, on occasion. Just like anyone else.
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 19:01   #20
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
At least Zhukov has hobbies ...
nor would I post that stuff that Dante did and call it "balanced".
(if not Dante is beeing ironic...)
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 19:41   #21
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
(if not Dante is beeing ironic...)
I was indeed, although I do believe the Serbs in general have been demonised and assigned a disproportional amount of blame for the collapse of Yugoslavia and the consequent bloodshed. It seems unlikely that Milosevic is not at least indirectly responsible for some of the atrocities that occurred during this period.

However, said atrocities had a habit of being misrepresented in the Western press - anyone remember the "rape camps" the more shameful segments of the British press got overly-excited about during the Kosovan conflict?

We'd also do well to remember the west's role in a lot of this (of which we are all partly responsible) - the bombing of Serbia, the general dismantling of the Yugoslavian state, etc.
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 19:44   #22
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

All of this could have been avoided if Tito just named someone to succeed him before he died ;/

Bring back Tito, a cool name and a cool guy.
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 19:50   #23
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

Prince Paul was a far better and wiser leader. People just don't always like wise leaders.
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 20:07   #24
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

He shouldnt have made the deal with the nazis, that was his downfall I think
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 20:09   #25
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

It's quite telling that there was no claim to bring Franco Tudjman (the croatian president) to court..

Tito should have had a son who had continued his legacy, and then it would have been peace as the different ethnic groups would have ended up marrying each other and therefore producing one ethnic group.
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 20:20   #26
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

I really liked Tito, I mean he had his problems but it was amazing the way that he kept Yugoslavia together as one.
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 20:42   #27
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
It's quite telling that there was no claim to bring Franco Tudjman (the croatian president) to court..
Obviously there is a history of Crotian / Ustashi forces being tacitly supported by western forces, the Catholic church having a particularly unglorious role in harbouring murders and such.
Quote:
Tito should have had a son who had continued his legacy
I can't tell if this is a joke but I think a real problem in the "socialist" (/state-capitalist / whatever) states is that due to a democratic deficit they rely on effectively feudal methods of succession. I seem to remember that Castro's brother has been marked to possibly succeed him in Cuba for instance.

For goodness sake, eyebrows would be raised if a local authority admin job went to the Chief Executive's family member, let alone running an entire country. If these regimes cannot "organically" change overtime then they will die, and quite frankly they deserve to.

Obviously a more mixed population (with more intermarrying) is less succeptible to some of the violent excesses seen in Yugoslavia. But I don't think it was lack of mixing that was the only cause of the problems - a lot of that was down to the centrifugal forces that economic "adjustment" unleashed on large portions of the world. A smaller overall cake and competing factions struggling to maintain their overall share, as it were.
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 20:54   #28
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

In terms of preventing the breakup of Yugoslavia and the ethnic cleansing that was quite surely to follow, a son could work out. That such a method would not be democractic is quite obvious, but its somewhat a different issue.
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 20:58   #29
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

The way Milosevic et al came to power was hardly democratic either
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 21:51   #30
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

Id agree with dante on the serbs being blamed almost wholly for the entire thing, its hardly prudent to take a post WWI approach to the entire thing, infact id argue the other loony nationalists elected in the other yugoslav states were just as 'evil' as slobodan only not as intelligent and ruthless. You can damn him for many things, ultimately being 'cleverer'* than his peers isn't one.

Its a shame the country broke up as it did, had it ridden out those divisions i think its diverse population and ethnic makeup would have been benefitial to the world. But then again i think the irish nationalists were nuts and it would have been better had republicanism been 'ridden out'


* lol fought and lost 4 wars. Clever obviously needs to be taken in a particularly limited context
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 23:22   #31
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

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Originally Posted by pig
The way Milosevic et al came to power was hardly democratic either
Depends what you mean. Milosevic and his party won various elections with varying degrees of legitimacy. The problem is that the media was heavily influenced / controlled in many cases but that's an issue in a lot of places.
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 23:50   #32
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Re: Milosevic found dead in his cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Depends what you mean. Milosevic and his party won various elections with varying degrees of legitimacy. The problem is that the media was heavily influenced / controlled in many cases but that's an issue in a lot of places.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
"There was no negotiations with the opposition parties, and the date of the election was announced just one month before, in order to prevent opposition from proper preparations.” After the election in December 1990 there were no more elections, even though the election was undemocratic. If there were no elections in Serbia this in turn meant there was no opposition to his power and he could retain it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Milosevic gained such a strong power base through the control of the media. Not only did the people in Serbia not know what was actually going on, but the international community didnt really know what was happening in the region (obviously governments et al knew, however no actual news corportations eg Reuters or the BBC were allowed in Serbia, instead as agh notes "They were given a video of the Serbian war effort and what was happening in Belgrade on a day to day basis. Actual independent reporting didnt exist in Serbia at the time").
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Originally Posted by pig
I myself feel that a major factor of Milosevic losing power was the war ending in 1995. This lead to “the strengthening of democratic parties, the former practice of fake elections no longer worked in Serbia.” However after the 1996 election where Milosevic some how won again “Municipal elections were actually won by the opposition…the authorities falsified the polls and ordered re-elections.” This then lead to mass protest and was probably the catalyst for Milosevic’s decline and eventual removal from power

"This aggressive fraud launched a mass protest movement in Serbia from November 1996 to February 1997, and hundreds of thousands marched every day on the streets of Belgrade as a political protest."

I feel that Milosevic gained power from the people and ultimately lost power by the people. A contributing factor was obviously the allied forces who ended the war and the human rights violations that he committed, but the major factor is I believe the people who ultimately had control over the country and they showed this with Milosevic losing power in 2000. However there is a definite argument that he should have lost power earlier than that, if only the international community had tried to help Yugoslavia, instead they didn’t and Milosevic remained in power.
Quote:
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The Civil war itself, was a Serbian reaction to the secession produced by the aggressive Serbia leadership, which of course had a freezing effect on the domestic problems in Serbia and the nationalistic drive for a Greater Serbia pushed aside other political problems and considerations for years.
Whats written above isnt gospel its taken from my essay a year or so ago on Milosevic and how he gained and retained his power and his eventual loss of the power, apologies for the shitness the final copy is on my other computer, this is just the first draft. Also Yugoslavia and that region imo has to be one of the most interesting place to study, when I studied Tito I was truly fascinated by him.
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