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Unread 28 Oct 2007, 09:49   #1
milo
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Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Strange as it seems i can't remember the build up to the iraq war, i vaguely remember debates in late 2002; then the invasion started. This was probably because i was naive enough to think an actual invasion of Iraq was lunacy. It seemed so improbable that the rising tension just 'missed me'. This isn't the case with iran and i'm actually finding myself drawn to any stories concerning its nuclear programme.

At best it now appears the likelyhood of avoiding war with iran is evens, people are either saying yes it'll happen or its a strong possiblity, for the first time in my life im actually getting a feeling of anxiety about global events. None of it makes any ****ing sense. How the hell is GB going to bomb the iranians into stopping a nuclear programme?? If you bomb their buildings they'll just rebuild them!! You can't stop them unless you want to carry out periodic attacks every few years. Preventing them gaining the knowledge is even more insane, what does he want to do target every engineer, academic or technician that works on their programme??? Its an insane argument.

The only realistic chance of actually preventing the development of nuclear weapons is another regime change anything else will majorely piss off the iranians but not prevent them from developing nukes. So if george bush honestly thinks the iranans are evil beyond evil and that they have to be stopped once and for all there has to be another invasion.

But surely after all thats happened he can see thats its just nuts to do that?!!?

Basically my point is i don't see an airstrike putting the iranians off in the long term, further more they've stated they'd strike back if attacked in that way. So the only 'logical' thing to do is invade them, but i just can't believe GB would be insane enough to do that. If it hasn't ****ing worked the first two times hes tried it what the hell makes him think it'll work now?!!



edit do those of you in the US have a 'feel' for increasing tension/statements towards war?? Is it seen as inevitable in america?
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Unread 28 Oct 2007, 10:08   #2
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

No, theres no support over here.
Any president that cares for his political future wouldn't start another war.


So maybe George Bush will attack Iran within the year.
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Unread 28 Oct 2007, 11:35   #3
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

The current cost for the Iraq war is around $400 billion. Assuming that regime change in Iran is going to be roughly similar, where will the money come from?
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Unread 28 Oct 2007, 11:49   #4
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The current cost for the Iraq war is around $400 billion. Assuming that regime change in Iran is going to be roughly similar, where will the money come from?
Iraqi oil?
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Unread 28 Oct 2007, 11:51   #5
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

the oil being drilled in Iraq, the Saudi royal family etc.
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Unread 28 Oct 2007, 12:39   #6
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Worst case scenario: They blow up Israel.
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Unread 28 Oct 2007, 13:25   #7
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

if its about preventing them from getting the knowledge, they're both naive and too late.
A decent physics student from university graduates with enough of the basics to build one if they have to and heck the infomation is on the web anyway, the hard part is getting the right materials
Thats what they are trying to stop - stop them from getting enough to build a bomb
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Unread 28 Oct 2007, 17:20   #8
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The current cost for the Iraq war is around $400 billion. Assuming that regime change in Iran is going to be roughly similar, where will the money come from?

They'll borrow it?? The iraq war hasn't been 'paid' for by the american tax payer yet, almost the entire thing has been done outside the budget via emergency supplemental requests.
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Unread 28 Oct 2007, 17:39   #9
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

I'd say it was less of question of financing but more of a question of when the public forgets about Iraq a little and when they have a fully formed image of Iran posed to send nukes across to blow you and I to kingdom come.
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Unread 29 Oct 2007, 00:59   #10
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Its all completely ridiculous.
history has taught us that everything is.
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Unread 29 Oct 2007, 15:19   #11
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Its especially stupid when you look at whats happening inside Iran at the moment. There are anti-government rallys. People are beggining to notice what a shit deal they are getting and are pushing for change. All it needs is time and support. Certainly not another invasion.
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Unread 29 Oct 2007, 21:26   #12
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allfather
Worst case scenario: They blow up Israel.
Yes, how could a nuclear power nuking another nuclear power in the worlds most unstable region possibly escalate into a much larger conflict?

Idiot.
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Unread 8 Nov 2007, 23:52   #13
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

It's pointless and impossible for the USA to invade Iran; I don't understand why people keep bringing it up. It sounds a bit silly.

Iran is as big as half Europe and has as a population of 65 - 70 million people, which would be way more difficult to stabilize then Iraq and Afganistan togheter, let alone all three of them at the same time and protect Kuwait from an Iranian invasion/bombardment. Also, there is nothing to gain financially, the price for another 'moral' war is to high. And what if they would invade Iran? What could the Americans do there? Install another regime and then wait for ten years in hope the Middle Eastern countries suddenly have a change of heart so they can finally retreat? The USA could bomb some targets from a distance, with Israel, but an invasion by the USA is currently out of the question.

Besides, if the situation escalates, it won't be the USA that's gonna make the difference. If you followed the news you've read that the french have already stated that they won't allow Iran to build up an nuclear arsenal, and are even prepared for war. Frenchies always mean business; when things turn out bad, it's gonna be them that are gonna talk some sense into the Ayatollah's heads. They've shown to be influential in the Middle East in the past.
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Unread 9 Nov 2007, 09:50   #14
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
Also, there is nothing to gain financially, the price for another 'moral' war is to high. And what if they would invade Iran?
Oil? I don't mean that in a conspiracy theorist way, but its a hard point to ignore when the man who was the Chairman of the Federal Reserve says as much about the iraq war.


I'm also less worried about the americans invading iran next year - i don't think they're capable of it, but of what could happen even with a 'limited airstrike'. The iranians have been explicit in saying they will fight back, so what happens if they shoot down an american plane and capture the pilot, or if they manage to sink a us ship or attack it suffeciently to cause loss of life?? The point im trying to make is it'll take very little for the lunatics in the US to escalate the conflict.
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Unread 9 Nov 2007, 10:18   #15
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Oil? I don't mean that in a conspiracy theorist way, but its a hard point to ignore when the man who was the Chairman of the Federal Reserve says as much about the iraq war.

That link is essentially worthless. Greenspan does not have access to priviledged information. There was no memo he saw which states "we r gonna invade Ayraq for da oil". He may be drawing a logical conclusion but, as i said, his statement is worthless as he provides no proof.
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Unread 9 Nov 2007, 11:16   #16
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

What on earth is your point? He isn't making a conspiracy theory and i explicitly said neither was I. He wasn't even critisicing the war he was for the bloody thing.

In fact, Greenspan, who led the US central bank for 18 years before retiring in January 2006, was deeply involved in the discussions before the war and knows exactly of what he speaks. According to his interview with Washington Post reporter Bob Woodward, he attended several private meetings with Bush and Cheney where he made the point that Saddam Hussein’s removal was essential for the US and global economy.

What proof do you want? The chairman of the federal reserve has said he had meetings with the president and the vice president on the long term economic affects of the war. That was part of his job. What would you have him do? write his own thoughts on a memo so you'd find them more believable.
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Unread 9 Nov 2007, 12:22   #17
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
What on earth is your point?

My point is that you presented an argument and you didn't justify your stance with suitable material.


Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
He isn't making a conspiracy theory and i explicitly said neither was I.

Well if you explicityly say that you're not making a conspiracy theory i guess you're not then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
In fact, Greenspan, who led the US central bank for 18 years before retiring in January 2006, was deeply involved in the discussions before the war and knows exactly of what he speaks. According to his interview with Washington Post reporter Bob Woodward, he attended several private meetings with Bush and Cheney where he made the point that Saddam Hussein’s removal was essential for the US and global economy.

What proof do you want? The chairman of the federal reserve has said he had meetings with the president and the vice president on the long term economic affects of the war. That was part of his job. What would you have him do? write his own thoughts on a memo so you'd find them more believable.

Ok see this is the thing. You try and back up your argument by citing another source but that source actually demolishes your argument. For instance:

Referring to Bush and Cheney, Greenspan said, “I have never heard them basically say, ‘We’ve got to protect the oil supplies of the world,’”

and

After Greenspan’s admission was widely publicized he sought to deflect responsibility from the White House. “I was not saying that that’s the administration’s motive,” Greenspan lamely claimed, “I’m just saying that if somebody asked me, ‘Are we fortunate in taking out Saddam?’ I would say it was essential,” he told Woodward.

the motive he mentions being oil.

oh yeah and ...

“Given that, ‘I’m saying taking Saddam out was essential,’ he said.” Nevertheless, Greenspan told the newspaper he wasn’t implying that the war had been an “oil grab.”



My point in doing all this? Identifying weak arguing skills. I'm just pointing it out so you can do better in future. Your argument is weak because you are reciting biased media reports. You are not reading between the lines and trying to get the ACTUAL information. if you said "Top Economist says that in his opinion, and he doesn't have any proof to back this up, Iraq war was about oil i'd have no problem with that" but you didn't. Just because Greenspan met da Prez and was asked about the economic implications of the war doesn't mean he was told the reason for it (and his comments state that he wasn't).

Th affect of the war is not the same as the reason for it.
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Unread 9 Nov 2007, 12:23   #18
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

By the way i believe the war was about oil but your article isn't a "smoking gun".
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Unread 9 Nov 2007, 12:57   #19
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by You Are Gay
My point in doing all this? Identifying weak arguing skills. I'm just pointing it out so you can do better in future. Your argument is weak because you are reciting biased media reports. You are not reading between the lines and trying to get the ACTUAL information. if you said "Top Economist says that in his opinion, and he doesn't have any proof to back this up, Iraq war was about oil i'd have no problem with that" but you didn't. Just because Greenspan met da Prez and was asked about the economic implications of the war doesn't mean he was told the reason for it (and his comments state that he wasn't).

I'm just going to assume you're being a troll.
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Unread 9 Nov 2007, 14:25   #20
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
I'm just going to assume you're being a troll.

Yeah well just carry on assuming.
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Unread 9 Nov 2007, 14:53   #21
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Oil? I don't mean that in a conspiracy theorist way, but its a hard point to ignore when the man who was the Chairman of the Federal Reserve says as much about the iraq war.
That might be so, the war might be about securing Iraqi oil reserves, but that doesn't mean the war in Iraq is for free. And even if the war is profitable for some, who will actually benefit from the war financially? The American taxpayer?
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Unread 9 Nov 2007, 15:15   #22
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by You Are Gay
You are not reading between the lines and trying to get the ACTUAL information.
Whereas you received your degree in reading between the lines recently?

And milo originally said
Quote:
its a hard point to ignore when the man who was the Chairman of the Federal Reserve says as much about the iraq war.
which isn't really claiming this axiomatically proves the war was about oil. Just that it's not a point to be quickly dismissed.

I haven't seen wilful obtuseness this bad since sunday8pm last posted
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Unread 9 Nov 2007, 18:19   #23
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
If you followed the news you've read that the french have already stated that they won't allow Iran to build up an nuclear arsenal, and are even prepared for war. Frenchies always mean business
May I be the first to say 'lol'.
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Unread 9 Nov 2007, 18:23   #24
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

I was in the car with a friend and his friend a couple of months ago. The friend of a friend said 'Well we went to war in Iraq over oil, why isn't petrol about two pence?'

I nearly cried.
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Unread 9 Nov 2007, 18:39   #25
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I was in the car with a friend and his friend a couple of months ago. The friend of a friend said 'Well we went to war in Iraq over oil, why isn't petrol about two pence?'

I nearly cried.
I heard someone say something along the same lines on the radio last night.

Also as has already been stated there would never (in the forseeable future) be an invasion of Iran. What would probably happen would be a strategic bombing of their nuclear facilities (asuming this is possible) which would probably be carried out by Israel rather than the US as has happened in the past.
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Unread 9 Nov 2007, 19:06   #26
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Re: Preventing Iran from getting 'the knowledge' to build nuclear weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
A decent physics student from university graduates with enough of the basics to build one if they have to
Ignoring the terrible grammar, there's a lot more to making a bomb than knowing the equations that govern the reaction.
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