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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 16:49   #1
Radical Edward
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Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

A recent MORI poll has found that 22% of the British population are f*cking stupid and 17% are ignorant and don't understand logical fallacies.

when quizzed about education, at least 44% demonstrated that educational policy should be left well out of the hands of muppets like them.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 16:55   #2
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Stupid people aren't really the problem. Someone who is genuinely thick will tend not to be particularly dogmatic and often will, given time, come round to the side with the best argument.

The problem is people who are intelligent yet intellectually dishonest (and there are quite a few). You'll find them on a variety of forums, pushing the line that God "could" exist, that there's no "definitive" proof against ID and so on. They misuse concepts like theory, doubt or evidence and in turn warp the entire argument.

Edit : I presume you're referencing this : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4648598.stm
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 16:57   #3
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Are you saying that there is no way that God "could" exist (in some form, obviously not as part of any of the major religions except in the vaguest form.)
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:06   #4
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

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Originally Posted by Deepflow
Are you saying that there is no way that God "could" exist
Only in the same sense that the Flying Spaghetti Monster could.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:09   #5
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

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Originally Posted by Deepflow
Are you saying that there is no way that God "could" exist (in some form, obviously not as part of any of the major religions except in the vaguest form.)

There certainly is no "God". Anyone else that was paying attention to the programme on C4 called "The Root Of All Evil" not long ago would agree. Give me proof and i'll believe.

Number 1 cause of war throughout history?: Religion
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:13   #6
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

the problem with "god" is that it goes beyond things like reason and proof, to such an extent that it could never be disproved. I certainly wouldn't say that the flying spaghetti monster doesnt exist.

Anyone trying to analyse the problem of divinity from these kind of viewpoints is really getting the wrong end of the stick.

Also, the whole "why are we here?" question is sill pretty pertinent, and it always will be as far as I can tell.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:15   #7
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Religion isnt God doofus.

Whatever way you look at it God cannot be ruled out because fundamentally our perception of everything could be very wrong or just intended to appear the way it does.

Whilst the bible is quite clearly incorrect the notion of a great being (even amongst some of the most hardened science types) has not been totally discounted. The perfect balance and harmony of everything is a bit eerie really.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:18   #8
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

just as a side point : i am undecided on whether there really is a great power but i can see it from both 'sides' if that makes sense.

Now i shall have a picnic on my white picket fence.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:19   #9
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

I'm already there!
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:21   #10
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
the problem with "god" is that it goes beyond things like reason and proof, to such an extent that it could never be disproved. I certainly wouldn't say that the flying spaghetti monster doesnt exist.

Anyone trying to analyse the problem of divinity from these kind of viewpoints is really getting the wrong end of the stick.

Also, the whole "why are we here?" question is sill pretty pertinent, and it always will be as far as I can tell.
Well the whole "God" and "Why are we here" can be tied together. If there is a "God", why is he/she there?.

The reason we're here is a matter of an individuals destiny. You can't ask that question relating to the entire human race. I believe that it is up to an individual to decide why they are here.

I can see your point of view though... i just refuse to buy it. In the majority of cases you won't convince religious people that there is no "God" and visa versa for people who don't believe.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:25   #11
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

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Originally Posted by Razgriz
Well the whole "God" and "Why are we here" can be tied together. If there is a "God", why is he/she there?.

The reason we're here is a matter of an individuals destiny. You can't ask that question relating to the entire human race. I believe that it is up to an individual to decide why they are here.

I can see your point of view though... i just refuse to buy it. In the majority of cases you won't convince religious people that there is no "God" and visa versa for people who don't believe.
The reason for God being there would, naturally, be beyond our understanding, so it's a bit of a silly point. In all likelihood the reason for us being here is too (and when I say that, I'm not talking about me personally, another way to say it would be "why is anything here?").

Of course you can ask a question relating to the entire human race, indeed everything, I see no reason why not to.

Also, I think it's far easier to convince people who don't believe in God to believe (or at least to accept the possibility) than it is to convince believers not to. I've changed my opinion enough times in my life already. I was a Christian till I was 14-15, then I became an atheist, I was until about age 19, and I've been an agnostic since then, I'm 21 now.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:28   #12
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
I certainly wouldn't say that the flying spaghetti monster doesnt exist.
So long as religious people are willing to concede that any belief they hold is on the same intellectual ground as spaghetti monsters then I'm sure we can all agree.

As for "Why are we here?" that's pretty easy. Conditions existed that led to live forming / evolving on this planet. If you mean "why" in some other (deeper) sense then you're probably suffering from a bizarre form of egotism a lot of human beings seem to suffer from. If you're asking why the universe exists, that seems a fairly idiotic question. Why would there be a reason? Even if the answer is God then we can still go on. So why did does God exist? Why did God's mum exist? Ad nausea.

Really, this is a non-issue and anyone who harbours any vague belief in God is guilty of horrific intellectual dishonesty in my humble opinion.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:33   #13
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Sounds very much the same as my upbringing Deepflow; i was brought up as a Catholic but when i came of age to make up my own mind i did.

Personally i think it's all tosh but i have respect for anyone that has a religious belife, to dedicate yourself to religion is something.... sometimes
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:34   #14
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
So long as religious people are willing to concede that any belief they hold is on the same intellectual ground as spaghetti monsters then I'm sure we can all agree.

As for "Why are we here?" that's pretty easy. Conditions existed that led to live forming / evolving on this planet. If you mean "why" in some other (deeper) sense then you're probably suffering from a bizarre form of egotism a lot of human beings seem to suffer from. If you're asking why the universe exists, that seems a fairly idiotic question. Why would there be a reason? Even if the answer is God then we can still go on. So why did does God exist? Why did God's mum exist? Ad nausea.

Really, this is a non-issue and anyone who harbours any vague belief in God is guilty of horrific intellectual dishonesty in my humble opinion.
Well I humbly disagree with your humble opinion. I'm also finding you saying that I am engaging in intellectual dishonesty slightly insulting (but nm, <3).

I think you saying "why would there be a reason?" could be said to be intellectual dishonesty, refusing to question seems a bit silly to me. I doubt I am going to work it out to my satisfaction throughout my life, but I'm certainly going to try.

As for the ad nauseum thing, why would there be a god, and who made god? etc etc etc
The fact that it could go on forever doesnt mean that it's not worth questioning, I know full well I am highly unlikely to ever understand it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop trying.

Just to give up and say "it doesnt matter why we are here" seems to me to be the far more intellectually dishonest position to take. Ignoring the greatest question simply because it's difficult.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:35   #15
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

...bit off topic now eh? lol
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:38   #16
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

I'm not too sure who or what god is. Mainly I wonder what he was doing before he created time. Then I wonder about that question. Then I wonder about questioning. Then I dismiss the problem as contrived, irrelevant and downright silly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Just to give up and say "it doesnt matter why we are here" seems to me to be the far more intellectually dishonest position to take. Ignoring the greatest question simply because it's difficult.
I believe the concept of a single specific reason for the existence of the human race, or more broadly intelligent life, is both narrow-minded and bizzare.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:39   #17
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Didn't I have a drunken conversation about this the other week with you Dante?
I'm quite aware that I probably made no sense...

I'm with Deepflow on this topic.
There is no doubt that Evolution happened.
The only line about ID in a science lesson should be "Some religious people believe that the life process was started by God. While others believe it happened naturally. There is no real way to prove either way."

I wish people stopped associating believing in a higher power to believing in God, but then I wish people stopped thinking that any higher power actually pays any attention to us and that the universe revolves around us.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:41   #18
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razgriz
There certainly is no "God". Anyone else that was paying attention to the programme on C4 called "The Root Of All Evil" not long ago would agree.
That's not really the conclusion that was made, or the argument that was presented.

[edit]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me, in the thread about this kind of thing that we're all ignoring for some reason
ID isn't just the Theory of Evolution with that tacked on the end, it substantially changes things. The random element in Evolutionary theory has proved to be an immensely powerful tool in all areas, and with its removal we just don't have any tools to examine how often speciation takes place, or how related species are, or all manner of things, like an extremely good description of why the sex ratio is generally 1:1, and why it diverges from this when it diverges, or why all there is substantial evidence for an RNA world. ID takes the life out of Evolution, it removes the reason why it is so interesting, why it is so fascinating.
ID also poses an incredible number of question that we can't answer, above and beyond dealing with the evidence and replacing the arguments of the above, and can never answer - such as "Why were we designed?", "How were we designed?", and the like. By far the most stupid thing is that ID just moves the playing field from a question we have evidence and science to answer to one we can't. "How did the thing that created us come into being?"
Was this being designed by something else? An a priori existance independent of the universe? Did they evolve?

ID does nothing that a scientific theory does. ID doesn't expand our knowledge, it only decreases it, and our potential knowledge in the future. It is against the evidence, it removes a powerful tool and is politically undesireable, irrespective of whether you care for it or not.

Saying that it's harmless, or letting its proponents hold their views with little argument, is the curse of its main opponents. Dawkins is characterised as arrogant for claiming to be true what he knows scientifically, with sources, to be true, whilst people who work against him and a rational model of reality do much worse and are ignored or praised.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:45   #19
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Agreed - although relivant to the course of this post now and an interesting watch
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 17:53   #20
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Didn't I have a drunken conversation about this the other week with you Dante?
I'm quite aware that I probably made no sense...
You mainly were talking about how you were the most important person in the universe and how you'd want to kill someone to save your own life. I was most upset by your viewpoint, Ste.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 18:03   #21
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Just to give up and say "it doesnt matter why we are here" seems to me to be the far more intellectually dishonest position to take. Ignoring the greatest question simply because it's difficult.
I am not saying it doesn't matter, I am saying of course there's no bloody reason. To assume otherwise, as I have suggested is inflating our importance somewhat. We are the result of random* occurences. Let's get over ourselves a moment and see how insignifcant we really are.

I do not mean dishonest in the sense you are lying or trying to be evil. I mean you are hiding behind concepts like "possible" or words like "could". I mean, do you believe you have a thirty foot penis? "Well, what if it was cloaked and phased and didn't weigh any more than a regular sized penis....etc....". Obviously you can go down that route, but it's insanity. When you start saying "I'm an agnostic because God could exist" then you might as well say "I'm agnostic over the issue of having a thirty foot penis because it's possible that I could even though there's no evidence to support that position".

* = Random in the non-conscious sense of the word, not necessarily predictability or whatever.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 18:12   #22
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
You mainly were talking about how you were the most important person in the universe and how you'd want to kill someone to save your own life. I was most upset by your viewpoint, Ste.
oh. I thought it was slightly more interesting than that
I remember you being unimpressed with what I was saying...
I think the alcohol affected my conversational skills.... Apologies!
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 18:21   #23
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
That's not really the conclusion that was made, or the argument that was presented.
I have a question for you, or perhaps Dante. You both seem relatively informed, and pretty confident.

Is there any scientific proof or viable hypothesis to explain the base levels of evolution, say from single-celled creatures to more complex organisms? Is there any developed theory concerning the intial emergence of life itself?

It's a genuine question. I accept that evolution appears to happen at a certain level, but I'm relatively ignorant as to the theory as a whole.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 18:27   #24
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I am not saying it doesn't matter, I am saying of course there's no bloody reason. To assume otherwise, as I have suggested is inflating our importance somewhat. We are the result of random* occurences. Let's get over ourselves a moment and see how insignifcant we really are.

* = Random in the non-conscious sense of the word, not necessarily predictability or whatever.
We are the result of random occurrences, but the way the universe is set up seems to be geared towards the creation of intelligent life. I saw this on the channel 4 program about the universe about a year ago and have no further sources, if a scientist wants to set me right then feel free to do so. The conditions of the universe are set up to a terribly precise degree, and any deviation from these factors would not have allowed life to develop for a whole number of reasons. The particularly persuasive one was the dark matter "level" which was specific to a ridiculously tiny degree (to the power of something fairly big iirc).

This would suggest some kind of design to the universe, but the counter point is the multiverse theory, which seems to me to be just as much of a logical leap as assuming in the existence of some kind of higher power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I do not mean dishonest in the sense you are lying or trying to be evil. I mean you are hiding behind concepts like "possible" or words like "could". I mean, do you believe you have a thirty foot penis? "Well, what if it was cloaked and phased and didn't weigh any more than a regular sized penis....etc....". Obviously you can go down that route, but it's insanity. When you start saying "I'm an agnostic because God could exist" then you might as well say "I'm agnostic over the issue of having a thirty foot penis because it's possible that I could even though there's no evidence to support that position".
For the reasons i mentioned just above and for many other reasons (little things that have happened to me in my life, certain conclusions I have come to that I couldn't possibly repeat (Yes yes, i was on drugs sometimes)) I see it as FAR more likely, relatively speaking, that there is some kind of higher power than the odds of me having a 30 foot penis. Comparing the existence of God to stuff like that is an argument I'm very familiar with, and it proves absolutely nothing.

I dont see myself as hiding behind things like "could" and "might", I don't see it as insanity, it seems to my mind to be the only sensible path to take.

P.S whenever I have said God in this thread, I've assumed absolutely nothing about it's nature.

P.P.S I have a thirty foot penis.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 18:31   #25
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

apart from the whole actual argument about god, can we at least agree that the people whore responded to this part of the poll:
When given a choice of three theories, people were asked which ones they would like to see taught in science lessons in British schools:
44% said creationism should be included
41% intelligent design
69% wanted evolution as part of the science curriculum.

the 44 and 41 % choosers should actually be shot for saying that it should be taught in a science lesson! If you want to teach creationism or ID in RE classes, knock yourself out, leave them out of my science lessons though!
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 18:36   #26
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
We are the result of random occurrences, but the way the universe is set up seems to be geared towards the creation of intelligent life. I saw this on the channel 4 program about the universe about a year ago and have no further sources, if a scientist wants to set me right then feel free to do so. The conditions of the universe are set up to a terribly precise degree, and any deviation from these factors would not have allowed life to develop for a whole number of reasons. The particularly persuasive one was the dark matter "level" which was specific to a ridiculously tiny degree (to the power of something fairly big iirc).

This would suggest some kind of design to the universe, but the counter point is the multiverse theory, which seems to me to be just as much of a logical leap as assuming in the existence of some kind of higher power.
Get a deck of cards. Shuffle them randomly and spread them out one by one. The odds of that particular combination emerging is 52! which trust me is a really large number, 80658175200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 to 1 give or take a few trillion. If the universe didn't exist like it does now what would you expect to be observing?
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 18:39   #27
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

that kind of argument doesnt lead anywhere though, its not about what I expect to observe, its about what IS observable. Just because the cards were put down in that order doesn't mean that analysis of other orders and the consequences of that are pointless.

If the cards are put down in ANY other fashion the end result is still roughly the same, namely that you have a table with cards spread over it, thats all that matters. What matters with the nature of the universe and the laws of nature which underline it (Which is what I was talking about, the strength of gravity for example, or indeed any force, or the dark matter ratio or whatever it was (sorry im being crap at explaining that, im sure its on any number of websites though)) is SO much more important.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 18:41   #28
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Get a deck of cards. Shuffle them randomly and spread them out one by one. The odds of that particular combination emerging is 52! which trust me is a really large number, 80658175200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 to 1 give or take a few trillion. If the universe didn't exist like it does now what would you expect to be observing?
Who shuffled the universe?
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 18:44   #29
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Who shuffled the universe?
My card-shuffling machine. The point is that extremely improbable things do happen when something must happen and the individual probability of each individual occurance is very low. This is a mathematical "truth" and irrelevant of the existence of intelligence.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 18:55   #30
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
My card-shuffling machine. The point is that extremely improbable things do happen when something must happen and the individual probability of each individual occurance is very low. This is a mathematical "truth" and irrelevant of the existence of intelligence.
Now there's a tautology. I don't care much for mathematical 'truth' when it explains so little.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 18:57   #31
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
A recent MORI poll has found that 22% of the British population are f*cking stupid and 17% are ignorant and don't understand logical fallacies.

when quizzed about education, at least 44% demonstrated that educational policy should be left well out of the hands of muppets like them.
78% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:00   #32
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

And after reading Dante's link , Im sorely tempted to further explore the path of the Pastafarian.

I WANT TO BELIEVE
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:02   #33
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
My card-shuffling machine. The point is that extremely improbable things do happen when something must happen and the individual probability of each individual occurance is very low. This is a mathematical "truth" and irrelevant of the existence of intelligence.
Yes, but with the card shuffling machine there is one particular probablility of cards that needs to come out at the end for life to exist, and it does. I can't interpret that any way apart making me question why this is, its the only reasonable course to take. The then next reasonable assumption is that there was something at the beginning of the universe that was making sure that intelligent life would develop.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:17   #34
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Yes, but with the card shuffling machine there is one particular probablility of cards that needs to come out at the end for life to exist, and it does. I can't interpret that any way apart making me question why this is, its the only reasonable course to take. The then next reasonable assumption is that there was something at the beginning of the universe that was making sure that intelligent life would develop.
Okay, so by a deliberate act of choice god arranges that something which is very improbable (assuming that it is improbable which cannot be shown to be the case due to the fact that we can't observe other possible evolutions of the universe, to give an analogy you could compare it to the universe being a biased die, as well as this you are unaware of the number of "failed attempts" there could have been ) will nonetheless be the case, namely that all the forces necessary for the emergence of life will have the "correct" values? This is a logically inconsistent picture. If god created the universe with the aim of making it animate it is illogical that he would have created as its initial state something whose natural evolution would lead with high probability only to inanimate status. It does not agree with the idea of an efficient creation of an animate universe that life is brought about through the first state being created with a natural tendency towards lifelessness and through this tendency being counteracted and overriden by the very agency that endowed it with this tendency.

Given that god is a supremely rational being who does not do things arbitrarily, nor change his mind from moment to moment, and given that he does intend to create a life-supporting universe, it would be contrary to his nature to create a universe which would in all probability fail to realise his intention unless he intervened to engage in the requisite fine tuning. Of course god moves in mysterious ways I hear
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:17   #35
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

I'm comforted by the knowledge that teaching untruthful things don't make them come true.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:21   #36
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

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Originally Posted by Boogster
I have a question for you, or perhaps Dante. You both seem relatively informed, and pretty confident.

Is there any scientific proof or viable hypothesis to explain the base levels of evolution, say from single-celled creatures to more complex organisms? Is there any developed theory concerning the intial emergence of life itself?

It's a genuine question. I accept that evolution appears to happen at a certain level, but I'm relatively ignorant as to the theory as a whole.
Yes there is. In the latter case, the current thing in vogue is something called The RNA World Hypothesis, which I believe I mentioned in my post. In the former case, yes but there's not something quite so quotable or searchable for upon wikipedia.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:24   #37
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Okay, so by a deliberate act of choice god arranges that something which is very improbable (assuming that it is improbable which cannot be shown to be the case due to the fact that we can't observe other possible evolutions of the universe, to give an analogy you could compare it to the universe being a biased die, as well as this you are unaware of the number of "failed attempts" there could have been ) will nonetheless be the case, namely that all the forces necessary for the emergence of life will have the "correct" values? This is a logically inconsistent picture. If god created the universe with the aim of making it animate it is illogical that he would have created as its initial state something whose natural evolution would lead with high probability only to inanimate status. It does not agree with the idea of an efficient creation of an animate universe that life is brought about through the first state being created with a natural tendency towards lifelessness and through this tendency being counteracted and overriden by the very agency that endowed it with this tendency.

Given that god is a supremely rational being who does not do things arbitrarily, nor change his mind from moment to moment, and given that he does intend to create a life-supporting universe, it would be contrary to his nature to create a universe which would in all probability fail to realise his intention unless he intervened to engage in the requisite fine tuning. Of course god moves in mysterious ways I hear
You speak of probability as though 'God' were subject to it. No matter the improbability of life, 'God' could know that life would in fact develop.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:26   #38
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

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Originally Posted by Deepflow
For the reasons i mentioned just above and for many other reasons (little things that have happened to me in my life, certain conclusions I have come to that I couldn't possibly repeat (Yes yes, i was on drugs sometimes)) I see it as FAR more likely, relatively speaking, that there is some kind of higher power than the odds of me having a 30 foot penis.
Well now we are getting somewhere at least. Or sort of. I am happy to talk about what's "likely" (although you are discussing the anthropic principle in later posts from what I can tell). Earlier you were only talking about what "could" have happened. Now you are discssuing things which may or may not be likely.

I'd really need to hear a good reason why God is any more likely then whatever random thing you can imagine (be it a 30ft penis or whatever). I understand these reasons may be personal to you, but it'd be good to hear them.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:30   #39
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Yes there is. In the latter case, the current thing in vogue is something called The RNA World Hypothesis, which I believe I mentioned in my post. In the former case, yes but there's not something quite so quotable or searchable for upon wikipedia.
Well, as far as I can tell from Wikipedia, RNA World Hypothesis is hardly a widely accepted theory, and not comprehensive.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:30   #40
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

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Originally Posted by Deepflow
We are the result of random occurrences, but the way the universe is set up seems to be geared towards the creation of intelligent life.
It's fairly tautological to state that everything we observe is a condition that allows for intelligent life to be produced. Whether you have a philosophical issue with this is your own affair, but it is to some extent driving String theory, which tends to state mathematically why the things we observe are the way we observe them.

This problem is significantly dimished if you feel that it's likely that there is an infinite, or countably infinite, number of universes, at which point the conditions we observe, assuming they are the only combination able to produce intelligent life, become the equivilent of "throw a 6 to start".
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:40   #41
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

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Originally Posted by Boogster
Well, as far as I can tell from Wikipedia, RNA World Hypothesis is hardly a widely accepted theory, and not comprehensive.
Yeah, that's how most things start out, but the person who wrote that wiki seems to be a lot more anti-RNA World than either my lecturer or my supervisors, so whilst it is still fairly controversial (everything is always controversial when you're dealing with evolution, because it's tending to be based on argument rather than setting up an experiment to demonstrate that feature) I'm not sure the wiki is providing a particularly balanced viewpoint.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:41   #42
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
You speak of probability as though 'God' were subject to it. No matter the improbability of life, 'God' could know that life would in fact develop.
Tell god that he did a ****ing bad job designing humans, as Mr B Good and his appendix will testify.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:42   #43
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Of course god moves in mysterious ways I hear
Yup
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:42   #44
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

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Originally Posted by Radical Edward
A recent MORI poll has found that 22% of the British population are f*cking stupid and 17% are ignorant and don't understand logical fallacies.

when quizzed about education, at least 44% demonstrated that educational policy should be left well out of the hands of muppets like them.

im glad to see at least 39% of the country has some sense.

ps evolution supporters talking about logical fallacies, lollyroffletomatocakes.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:45   #45
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
You speak of probability as though 'God' were subject to it. No matter the improbability of life, 'God' could know that life would in fact develop.
I speak of probability as though the universe was subject to it.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:46   #46
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Tell god that he did a ****ing bad job designing humans, as Mr B Good and his appendix will testify.
It was punishment from god for all my sins. Or at least I hope it covered all of them because I'm not looking forward to the rest if that was just the warm-up.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:50   #47
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

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Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
ps evolution supporters talking about logical fallacies, lollyroffletomatocakes.
Are we back to the good old fashioned "I don't believe that evolution is accurate and I have amazing inside scoops and I'm not going to tell anyone what they are because I don't have time and you're all beneath me and whoops is that the time I've got to go"?

Because if we are, please just bugger off.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:51   #48
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Well now we are getting somewhere at least. Or sort of. I am happy to talk about what's "likely" (although you are discussing the anthropic principle in later posts from what I can tell). Earlier you were only talking about what "could" have happened. Now you are discssuing things which may or may not be likely.

I'd really need to hear a good reason why God is any more likely then whatever random thing you can imagine (be it a 30ft penis or whatever). I understand these reasons may be personal to you, but it'd be good to hear them.
Which is more likely to create the universe, a 30ft penis, or 'God'? For the record, I don't particularly mind whether 'God' resembles a Giant with a Beard or a Bowl of Spaghetti.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:51   #49
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Whether you have a philosophical issue with this is your own affair.
I think this is what it comes down to basically, i had a conversation with jonny about it and came to this conclusion. But I'm really not certain enough of what my own beliefs even are to argue about them with you guys, and im stoned now.

Dante, lots of little things, things that could be coincedences, but I choose to not see them as such. This is generally because of the way I feel fundamentally, I never feel I'm alone, I certainly never feel that I understand the world in the slightest, and it seems silly to write out the idea of something which could (hypothetically, very hypothetically,) explain this. I would like to say again, all i really believe in is the possibility of some kind of cosmic force, call it god, call it karma, call it destiny, I have no assumptions about its characteristics, and even applying characteristics to it is pointless.

I just get a sense that this isn't "all there is", not enough to convince me, but enough to not make me dismiss the idea utterly.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:51   #50
MrL_JaKiri
The Twilight of the Gods
 
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Re: Britain to be shot down and quarantined by the thought police

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It was punishment from god for all my sins. Or at least I hope it covered all of them because I'm not looking forward to the rest if that was just the warm-up.
But jesus saved some pretty sinful people, why must god play favourites all the time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Which is more likely to create the universe, a 30ft penis, or 'God'? For the record, I don't particularly mind whether 'God' resembles a Giant with a Beard or a Bowl of Spaghetti.
Basic comprehension 0, Boogster 1.
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