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Unread 12 Jan 2004, 23:56   #51
Evergreen
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebany
It was more just the way you said it, in a 'I'm going to turn up and spoil it for you' kind of way. I didn't think you would. You'd probably have forgotten by then anyway.

And why does the fact that I've been engaged before and it didn't work out somehow mean that I am clearly unable to consider marriage seriously? And to fit your own arguments, whats to say I dont just want to get married to provide a stable home for the children I fully plan to have (a whole house full of little Marks....dontcha all just wanna come visit? ). Certainly, we have discussed the fact that we would like to be married before I get pregnant, and it might be an idea to let him finish uni first, perhaps, but I don't consider that as the main reason behind us getting married.

We've even discussed names for the little darlings
You said you did it while you were young without serious thought to how you would go about it.

Hence that would suggest you were unable to consider marriage seriously correct?

What is exactly wrong with common-law anyway until your situation neccessitate's full marriage?
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:01   #52
Ebany
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Re: how many people....

We didnt put thought into how we would go about it as we had no money at the time, and while I didn't have precise plans, I knew the kind of thing I wanted and I knew it would cost several thousand pounds. We got engaged to show a slightly higer level of commitment than just going out with each other, and bacause we both wanted to. We fully expected to be together forever, it just didnt work out that way. I took the idea of the marriage perfectly seriously. Just because you get engaged doesnt mean you have to instantly set a date and send out invites though.

I dont really have anything against common-law setups, I just don't see why I shouldn't get married if both of us are happy about it (and both knowing the inherent risks involved). Its probably a girl thing, as my friend I am talking to on msn totally understands.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:02   #53
Jennifer
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Re: how many people....

Because if you don't God will turn you into a dung beetle for living in sin.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:03   #54
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Re: how many people....

There is that....
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:04   #55
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Because if you don't God will turn you into a dung beetle for living in sin.
God is overrated.

Cod and chips, that's where it's at.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:04   #56
Evergreen
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebany
We didnt put thought into how we would go about it as we had no money at the time, and while I didn't have precise plans, I knew the kind of thing I wanted and I knew it would cost several thousand pounds. We got engaged to show a slightly higer level of commitment than just going out with each other, and bacause we both wanted to. We fully expected to be together forever, it just didnt work out that way. I took the idea of the marriage perfectly seriously. Just because you get engaged doesnt mean you have to instantly set a date and send out invites though.

I dont really have anything against common-law setups, I just don't see why I shouldn't get married if both of us are happy about it (and both knowing the inherent risks involved). Its probably a girl thing, as my friend I am talking to on msn totally understands.
OR enviroment encourages her to behave in an understanding manner. She may not understand but feel obligated to affirm your intentions as part of the friend relationship.

(I am assuming she when you say it's a girl thing)

That aside, Mark is young and lust isn't forever.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:07   #57
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Re: how many people....

Given I have chatted with her a number of times about such things (a large number of my old school friends are getting married/engaged around now) and she knows she can say what she damn well pleases to me, I doubt she is just saying what I want to hear.

And indeed, Mark is young, (my toyboy ) but its not like he has lived in a monestary his whole life and I'm the first girl he has ever set eyes on.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:08   #58
Evergreen
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebany
Given I have chatted with her a number of times about such things (a large number of my old school friends are getting married/engaged around now) and she knows she can say what she damn well pleases to me, I doubt she is just saying what I want to hear.

And indeed, Mark is young, (my toyboy ) but its not like he has lived in a monestary his whole life and I'm the first girl he has ever set eyes on.
Or the last.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:08   #59
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Think of it like a business alliance. There will be ups and downs, but you will probably be emotionally and financially more stable if there's two of you in it together. You'll also have a fairly stable environment in which to raise children - children you are unlikely to suddenly decide you want to abandon.
I'm quite cynical, really.
Cynics Rarely Marry. They simply go through a series of relationships where they eventually find fault in a partner and wander off thinking theyll find something better.

Being married to a cynic is akin to a life sentence.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:08   #60
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Re: how many people....

God and I had a serious talk the other day about my bad behaviour. He told me I was asking for trouble. He also said you should watch your step Sunday. I thought he had some sort of God-God's children confidentiality, but apparently not. Hehe. You're in trouble, sonny.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:09   #61
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
God and I had a serious talk the other day about my bad behaviour. He told me I was asking for trouble. He also said you should watch your step Sunday. I thought he had some sort of God-God's children confidentiality, but apparently not. Hehe. You're in trouble, sonny.
You're an ass.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:11   #62
Jennifer
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Cynics Rarely Marry. They simply go through a series of relationships where they eventually find fault in a partner and wander off thinking theyll find something better.

Being married to a cynic is akin to a life sentence.
I'm not that sort of cynic. I just think that that sort of 'love' makes you lose sight of the important things in life.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:13   #63
Evergreen
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
I'm not that sort of cynic. I just think that that sort of 'love' makes you lose sight of the important things in life.
Because you know what the meaning of life is and thus can prioritise what is important?
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<Jassy> aryn, how can u let ppl spread shit in this chan? ur not doing ur job properly if u let ppl spread shit
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:14   #64
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen
You're an ass.
No. But you will be in your next life if you don't start agreeing with God.

God is very much like a scientific model. Like string theory or m theory. Obviously you have apply it in sensible limits, but as long as it works, does it really matter if there are REALLY a dozen or so dimensions?
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:15   #65
Evergreen
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
No. But you will be in your next life if you don't start agreeing with God.

God is very much like a scientific model. Like string theory or m theory. Obviously you have apply it in sensible limits, but as long as it works, does it really matter if there are REALLY a dozen or so dimensions?
I'm waiting on you making a shit reply about how god told you what the meaning of life is and I'm going to start worrying why you are behaving like you look like (At least from the neck up).
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:17   #66
Jennifer
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen
Because you know what the meaning of life is and thus can prioritise what is important?
I know what is important to me. That's why people who have precious little else to live for are so quick to fall in love. Obviously you get people who chose it 'eyes open', as it were. Rather them than me, tbh.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:19   #67
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Re: how many people....

I'm already married.

And a lot of shit has been talked in this thread.

p.s. Marriage adds almost no further legal entanglement than living together. Sure, you can choose to become more entangled (joint bank accounts, joint-tenancies and mortgages, that sort of thing) but pretty much all of that is available for people co-habiting.

In fact, due to most legislation over the last 30 years or so there is very little difference at all. You don't even get tax benefits anymore
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:23   #68
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen
I'm waiting on you making a shit reply about how god told you what the meaning of life is and I'm going to start worrying why you are behaving like you look like (At least from the neck up).
God hasn't said anything to me. But if He exists, we (physicists) would be the first to hear what He has to say, and the physicists would be the true theologians, wouldn't we really? Because if He does exists, E=mc^2 is certainly the 'word' of God. Oh, wouldn't that be beautifully ironic?
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:25   #69
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
But if He exists
He doesn't which makes the question rather pointless.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:29   #70
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Re: how many people....

Prove it.

I'm not ruling out anything unless I discover it is incompatible with empirical evidence and even then I'm willing to reconsider should I need to.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:32   #71
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
I'm not ruling out anything unless I discover it is incompatible with empirical evidence and even then I'm willing to reconsider should I need to.
Who said anything about ruling out?

Invisible unicorns which live on Venus in a cloaked super shielded research facility built by a mega intelligence 10 million years ago can't be ruled on out in some sense, but we try not to let them influence our decision making processes or discuss it in sensible conversation.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:48   #72
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Re: how many people....

You said quite clearly "he doesn't". Sounds like a ruling out to me. I'm not having this conversation with you. Your arguments are ridiculous and my reasoning would be wasted on you.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 00:54   #73
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
You said quite clearly "he doesn't". Sounds like a ruling out to me. I'm not having this conversation with you.
Are you ruling that out?

I'm willing to admit the possibility of a being which created the universe (i.e. I won't rule it out, as you say). However, that doesn't mean I think he does. Similarly, I can't rule out the possibility that there are monsters behind me mocking me which everyone else can see but refuses to tell me about. If asked however, whether there are monsters behind me, I will answer "No, there are not".

Hope this clears things up.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 01:06   #74
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Re: how many people....

So you are saying that there is sufficient evidence to support your theory that there are not monsters behind that everyone can see except you, and on those grounds you dismiss it?

Do you have any evidence that God does not exist? Is it sufficient evidence on which to base the conclusion that my statement that began 'If [God] exists' is pointless?
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 01:06   #75
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Invisible unicorns which live on Venus in a cloaked super shielded research facility built by a mega intelligence 10 million years ago can't be ruled on out in some sense, but we try not to let them influence our decision making processes or discuss it in sensible conversation.
You must be pretty ****ing dull if you don't discuss stuff like that dude





Like the other day we had a two hour conversation in the pub over who would win a fight between a lion and a killer whale.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 01:19   #76
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Re: how many people....

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Originally Posted by Jennifer
So you are saying that there is sufficient evidence to support your theory that there are not monsters behind that everyone can see except you, and on those grounds you dismiss it?
Woah, we are having this conversation.

You don't need evidence to prove negatives. I see no reason to believe in monsters behind me, it fulfills no purpose and doesn't fit in with anything else I appear to "know" and so my answer will be negative. To sustain real sentences and not fall into mindless skepticism we generally have to be able to give generally clear answers to questions.

"Hey Jennifer, did you go to the bank today?"
"Well, I have no evidence that the memory of going to the bank weren't planted by the CIA using high-tech super surgery that we have no knowledge of. Since the effect in either case would be the same, I can't answer your question."

Quote:
Do you have any evidence that God does not exist? Is it sufficient evidence on which to base the conclusion that my statement that began 'If [God] exists' is pointless?
See above. The question you asked (about whether it would be ironic whether a mythical being revealed itself to your profession and whether such a revelation would be ironic) certainly seems to be pointless in practical thread about marriage. If we all want to go to Role Play and play make believe games then that's cool. I'll be the Vorlons.

Please don't think I'm condemning pointlessness - it's not necessarily bad of course, this post reeks of it, but let's all be aware of what we are doing. If we want to discuss nonsense like religion then that's cool, but we may as well seriously discuss my Venus base proposition in the same breath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Like the other day we had a two hour conversation in the pub over who would win a fight between a lion and a killer whale.
Jonny, I said sensible conversations.



I mean, they're totally different weight divisions. Any promoter setting up that kind of fight is going to lose his licence, you know, like that.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 01:22   #77
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Re: how many people....

See user title for Plato's opinion of gods.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 01:22   #78
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Re: how many people....

We had difficulties sorting out where they could fight. Eventually we decided on a walled enclosure, pumped full of oxygen in outer-space.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 01:38   #79
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Woah, we are having this conversation.

You don't need evidence to prove negatives. I see no reason to believe in monsters behind me, it fulfills no purpose and doesn't fit in with anything else I appear to "know" and so my answer will be negative. To sustain real sentences and not fall into mindless skepticism we generally have to be able to give generally clear answers to questions.

"Hey Jennifer, did you go to the bank today?"
"Well, I have no evidence that the memory of going to the bank weren't planted by the CIA using high-tech super surgery that we have no knowledge of. Since the effect in either case would be the same, I can't answer your question."

See above. The question you asked (about whether it would be ironic whether a mythical being revealed itself to your profession and whether such a revelation would be ironic) certainly seems to be pointless in practical thread about marriage. If we all want to go to Role Play and play make believe games then that's cool. I'll be the Vorlons.

Please don't think I'm condemning pointlessness - it's not necessarily bad of course, this post reeks of it, but let's all be aware of what we are doing. If we want to discuss nonsense like religion then that's cool, but we may as well seriously discuss my Venus base proposition in the same breath.Jonny, I said sensible conversations.



I mean, they're totally different weight divisions. Any promoter setting up that kind of fight is going to lose his licence, you know, like that.
In physics we work in a slightly different way. There's nothing to suggest that there's a dependence in the nuclear energy levels on orbital angular momentum and spin, but since we're not talking about electromagnetic forces, there's no reason why it can't be. So we put it in, to see if were could find a rule that matched observations. And we did. And we tested to see if this term was actually there, and omg, we found the 30% polarization we expected.

I was referring to your Venus thing when I said I wasn't having the conversation with you. If you can't see why that's a stupid argument, I'm not going to tell you.

But what is 'proving negatives'? If God didn't create the universe, then presumably it came into existence all by itself. You got any proof for that? Why don't you need to prove that? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I'm going to bed now. I will probably be too busy to reply again any time soon.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 01:43   #80
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
In physics we work in a slightly different way. There's nothing to suggest that there's a dependence in the nuclear energy levels on orbital angular momentum and spin, but since we're not talking about electromagnetic forces, there's no reason why it can't be. So we put it in, to see if were could find a rule that matched observations. And we did. And we tested to see if this term was actually there, and omg, we found the 30% polarization we expected
Whilst induction has been dropped as a failure ('The only problem with induction is that it doesn't exist'), it doesn't mean that everything can be gotten from a simple set of axioms, in the style of mathematics. Empiricism comes in somewhere. 'There's nothing to suggest that there's a dependence in the nuclear energy levels on orbital angular momentum and spin' you say; surely the existance of a correlation should suggest such a dependence, otherwise the theory which is acquired would not work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
But what is 'proving negatives'? If God didn't create the universe, then presumably it came into existence all by itself. You got any proof for that? Why don't you need to prove that? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Yes, but an absence of evidence can be empirically assumed to be evidence of absence (by Occam's Razor), until such a time when sufficient evidence is gathered that the hereto accepted assumption can be refuted.

You cannot prove that god doesn't exist, but to assume that god does exist, when there is no evidence for it other than the limitations of the thoughts of man, is a fallacy of the highest order.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 01:53   #81
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
But what is 'proving negatives'? If God didn't create the universe, then presumably it came into existence all by itself. You got any proof for that? Why don't you need to prove that?
You can presume whatever you like about the origin of the universe. The universe seems to exist. Other than what physicists tell me, I hold very little opinion on the matter (how could I?). Either the universe has always existed in some sense, or it came into being in some sense (divine creation would be a mix of the two, since God presumably always existed, but then created the Universe, whatever). Neither seems particularly desirable, and I wouldn't really hold either opinion strongly unless there was some firm evidence I was aware of.

But the cool thing about that is that there is very little ethical consequence of either route. If tommorow it's somehow proved beyond realistic doubt the universe came into being on x date (precisely) for such and such reasons. So what? Does this change beauty, or freedom, or anything else? But you bring God into things, it has a hell of an impact on everything else. To quote the biologist Richard Lewontin, either God has some sort of "interventionist" role (i.e. he can and does affect things) or he does not. If the former is true then science is basically a joke, if the latter is true then God is an irrelevence.

As for the physics stuff, you can presume God exists, that's fine. If you've got an experiment or a model to test something useful then go for it. When you've got something interesting to note, feel free to report back to humanity. We await your findings with baited breath.

p.s. And there is nothing more absurd about any random belief (such as unicorns on venus) than the idea of God. It's just the latter is supported by large numbers of people.
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Which is why I demand my unicorn notion is taken seriously, damnit! What, that's different?
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 02:01   #82
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Re: how many people....

No one is assuming God exists.

You can throw Occam's Razor at anything, to demonstrate anything, if you throw it the right way. I thoroughly despise the notion of Occam's Razor, because of the way it is abused. You CAN'T apply it in situations like this because the non-existence of God has very definite consequences that by Occam's Razor you should assume don't happen because there's no evidence for them. They are only required because you have assumed something else doesn't exist. You'll get yourself into all sorts of stupid messes if you start applying philosophical notions blindly like that.

You can say that we don't include God in our model of the universe because there's no need for it. That's fine. You can't include the non-existence of God and all the associated consequences of that in your model of the universe because there is no evidence for that either.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 02:08   #83
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Re: how many people....

I'm not presuming God exists. I'm not presuming he doesn't.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 02:11   #84
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Re: how many people....

You're presuming He is worth mentioning. Which He isn't.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 02:12   #85
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
I'm not presuming God exists. I'm not presuming he doesn't.
OK. Simple question : Which is more likely, God existing, or God not existing?

I don't see what's so special about God though, seriously. If we are seriously involving a notion of God (presumably a monotheistic Judean style God, from the way you speak) into any rational discussion then why not seriously discuss Gods, eternal spirit, the Jedi Force, and a whole range of other thoughts and notions.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 02:12   #86
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
But the cool thing about that is that there is very little ethical consequence of either route. If tommorow it's somehow proved beyond realistic doubt the universe came into being on x date (precisely) for such and such reasons. So what? Does this change beauty, or freedom, or anything else? But you bring God into things, it has a hell of an impact on everything else. To quote the biologist Richard Lewontin, either God has some sort of "interventionist" role (i.e. he can and does affect things) or he does not. If the former is true then science is basically a joke, if the latter is true then God is an irrelevence.
It's not about ethical consequences. No one is bringing God into the equation. But He may be needed to explain the origin of the Universe. How about God has no interventionist role, but merely 'jump-started the big bang'? Science would not be a joke, and God would not be irrelevant.
I'm going to bed now. nn
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 02:16   #87
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
It's not about ethical consequences. No one is bringing God into the equation. But He may be needed to explain the origin of the Universe.
So might any number of other things though. You must have a reason for mentioning this particular one as opposed to any others? Is it because you happen to be born in a Christian country or somesuch? Were your parents religious in any form?

And I don't see why you'd need to even consider it a God if it was merely somethign which started the big bang. I'm sure a lot of people would get excited about "revealing God's wisdom" which strikes me as the usual Christian hubris of presuming that our puny biologically evolved brains could somehow comprehend God's will.
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I'm going to bed now. nn
That's the second time you've told us that. Is it relevent somehow?
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 03:19   #88
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
No one is assuming God exists.

You can throw Occam's Razor at anything, to demonstrate anything, if you throw it the right way. I thoroughly despise the notion of Occam's Razor, because of the way it is abused. You CAN'T apply it in situations like this because the non-existence of God has very definite consequences that by Occam's Razor you should assume don't happen because there's no evidence for them. They are only required because you have assumed something else doesn't exist. You'll get yourself into all sorts of stupid messes if you start applying philosophical notions blindly like that.

You can say that we don't include God in our model of the universe because there's no need for it. That's fine. You can't include the non-existence of God and all the associated consequences of that in your model of the universe because there is no evidence for that either.
I find it ironic that you are lambasting me for applying a philosophical notion in the field for which it was intended, that being the existance, and empirical acceptance, of the possiblity or otherwise of god.

Perhaps you should have gone to cambridge, you could have taken HPS.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 03:21   #89
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
It's not about ethical consequences. No one is bringing God into the equation. But He may be needed to explain the origin of the Universe. How about God has no interventionist role, but merely 'jump-started the big bang'? Science would not be a joke, and God would not be irrelevant.
I'm going to bed now. nn
However, since we cannot prove that, one way or the other, without God being interventionist, it is foolish to the extreme to assume that he exists.

Do not multiply entities unnecessarily.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 03:32   #90
Leshy
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Re: how many people....

This thread went off-topic from the off-topicness. Ace.
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 03:43   #91
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Re: how many people....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I find it ironic that you are lambasting me for applying a philosophical notion in the field for which it was intended, that being the existance, and empirical acceptance, of the possiblity or otherwise of god.

Perhaps you should have gone to cambridge, you could have taken HPS.

Science always steals the best philosophers
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Unread 13 Jan 2004, 15:58   #92
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Re: how many people....

heh
marriage is definitely something i wouldn't rush into. i'd prefer to be with the guy for a few years before even getting engaged.. and then staying engaged for a few years before getting married.

btw paul.. common law doesn't quite work that way.. after 6months (i can't remember how long you live together before being common law married) she's entitled to 1/2 your stuff :P
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