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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 01:04   #101
G.K Zhukov
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Re: The new University fees.

Just a quick question..
Why did you guys&girls allow the goverment to charge education in the first place?

And its not so hard getting to money to fund it, if you really want it.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 01:10   #102
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Just a quick question..
Why did you guys&girls allow the goverment to charge education in the first place?
Because most professers dont like working unpaid, and it costs money to maintain lecture theatres and stuff.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 01:13   #103
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Re: The new University fees.

Yes, we can get loans.

But my loan only just covers my accommodation costs - I'm not 'entitled' to any more than that. If my parents didn't pay my tuition fees I wouldn't be able to afford it. Don't talk to me about working. I don't have time to work in vacations or anywhen else. In term time I'm lucky if I have time to eat and sleep.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 01:19   #104
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Re: The new University fees.

I went to uni and did my shitty course.

After finishing i've actually educated myself far better than they could of.
As Nodrog said, it would have been far better for them to help me understanding my environment and how to think. And equally important, understanding yourself and others.

Tradional Chinese education seems to home in on these important concepts.

If my uni could have done this i would have been far better at my course. I got a first but i don't think that actually means anything, apart from saying i can memorise concepts and parrot them down on paper.

But i'm glad i did my course, just so it made me realise how silly the whole uni thing is and the concept of education at this moment in time, and the silly ideas such of how intelligent you are based on how well you do in the education system.

[edit] im not sure if uni should change to accommodate the kind of things i said up there. tbh i think these kind of things shold be taught to enfants. Who alot of the time seem more intelligent than adults, but get that intelligence drilled out of them in favour of our current education system.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 01:23   #105
G.K Zhukov
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Because most professers dont like working unpaid, and it costs money to maintain lecture theatres and stuff.
Thats why you got a state.

We got no intution fees in Norway, and still our proffesors get paid each month.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 01:24   #106
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Yes, we can get loans.

But my loan only just covers my accommodation costs - I'm not 'entitled' to any more than that. If my parents didn't pay my tuition fees I wouldn't be able to afford it. Don't talk to me about working. I don't have time to work in vacations or anywhen else. In term time I'm lucky if I have time to eat and sleep.
Theres no reason why people have to go to university straight from school. The only reason most people do it just now is because "everyone else does it", and once youve dropped out of the current system its hard to get back in. If fees were increased by a large amount you might see a new funding paradigm develop, where most people worked for 2-3 years after school until they had saved enough money to afford uni. It makes no real difference whether you graduate at 21 or 25, objectively speaking.

Also, theres plenty of other places to get loans besides the government. They dont have to be interest free you know. Im sure many companies/banks/institutions would be happy to provide student loans privately, for suitable rates of interest.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 01:30   #107
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Thats why you got a state.

We got no intution fees in Norway, and still our proffesors get paid each month.
The reason this debate has recently developed in the UK is due to the complete inability of pure governmental funding to maintain "world class universities". There are no real "world class universities" in Norway, as far as I know.

Last edited by Nodrog; 14 Dec 2003 at 01:39.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 01:47   #108
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
I went to uni and did my shitty course.

After finishing i've actually educated myself far better than they could of.
As Nodrog said, it would have been far better for them to help me understanding my environment and how to think. And equally important, understanding yourself and others.

Tradional Chinese education seems to home in on these important concepts.
See, that's the thing. Without going into a long rant about what I think the 'real' purpose(s) of university are, I do think that the desire to learn for the sake of learning is just as legitimate a reason to attend as the desire to learn how to "get a specific job", or to jump start your career (I use the word 'learning' here to encapsulate all the benefits that time at university provides, not just the knowledge of the single academic discipline in which you are taught). There is no such thing as useless knowledge, provided the person has enjoyed learning it, and finds enjoyment in utilising it. The ultimate purpose of all knowledge (and indeed everything) is individual happyness, and if a person is able to find the same level of entertainment/interest in sociology or media studies as someone else is able to find in maths or physics, then good for them.

However, while 'self fufillment' is without a doubt a valid reason for wanting a tutored education, I dont see how you can possible demand that other people pay for it on your behalf. I can see the logic in demanding that the state funds a 'pragmatic' education that 'benefits society' by putting people into jobs (even though I disagree with it), but saying that other people should pay for you to "advance your knowledge" and to "learn about life" is taking the piss. If you want to gain life experiences / further your knowledge / understand the universe / 'develop as a person', then pay for it yourself.


(I use 'you' in the general sense here obviously)

Last edited by Nodrog; 14 Dec 2003 at 01:53.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 01:58   #109
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Re: The new University fees.

The gov. should pay for me to gain life experiences / further your knowledge / 'develop as a person' cos it will help the country in the long run.

And i elected these people to get my taxes and do stuff that will help me. Like keeping up homeland security, educating me, making me happy.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 01:59   #110
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Exclamation Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
I went to uni and did my shitty course.
You've been to University? Jesus Christ, I thought you were like 17 and in a relationship with Bloomers or something.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 02:00   #111
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Re: The new University fees.

Do you like me more now?
Hug?
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 02:04   #112
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Exclamation Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
Do you like me more now?
No, I actually like you less now I know you're an old bastard, but we have to endure what life throws at us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
Hug?
*Huggssssss*
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 02:43   #113
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
There are no real "world class universities" in Norway, as far as I know.
That's slightly unfair since the population of Norway is quite a bit less than London (let alone the UK). And while London (which has a couple of 'world class colleges') can draw students from pretty much anywhere in the English speaking world, I'd imagine you're talking about considerably less people in the "Norwegian speaking world".
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 02:56   #114
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Re: The new University fees.

It wasnt a dig at Norway, it was an explanation of why pure state funding has recently been deemed inadequate in Britain. If a country isnt actually trying to produce "world class" research universities (which, by the way, theres no reason for the government to do anyway), then the funding argument would be different.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 03:01   #115
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
It wasnt a dig at Norway, it was an explanation of why pure state funding has been deemed inadequate.
Yeah, I know what you mean, but it's a difficult example because only certain countries are likely to be able to operate world-class universities, irrespective of how they fund them.

English speaking countries have a tremendous advantage compared to their counterparts in that they can attract more students from random places because English is such a common language (both 1st and 2nd language wise).

But have "world class universities", ever been purely state funded? (Has anyone ever advocated that?) I know with the LSE, home students (i.e. those from within the EU) education is subsidised heavily by non-EU students (who are charged ridiculous rates). Colleges in Britain can get away with that because, in some instances, they can attract students from abroad.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 03:06   #116
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
But have "world class universities", ever been purely state funded? (Has anyone ever advocated that?)
It would really depend on what you meant by 'purely state funded'. I assume most of the better universities receive a large part of their income from other sources, such as alumni donations and private enterprise and suchlike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I know with the LSE, home students (i.e. those from within the EU) education is subsidised heavily by non-EU students (who are charged ridiculous rates). Colleges in Britain can get away with that because, in some instances, they can attract students from abroad.
Huh? I cant speak for LSE, but afaik international students here are charged the same as home students (between 10000 and 15000 depending on the course) - the only difference is that they pay all of it themselves rather than the state contributing 14000. Also, I was under the impression that most good unis outside of London had a fairly low percentage of international students?

edit: according to google, I appear to be wrong here. I'd appreciate more details if you have them.

Last edited by Nodrog; 14 Dec 2003 at 03:11.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 03:35   #117
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The reason this debate has recently developed in the UK is due to the complete inability of pure governmental funding to maintain "world class universities". There are no real "world class universities" in Norway, as far as I know.
I would like to see a clearification about definied as a world class uni, and the reasons we need 'em in many ways. (expections, MIT and such things, like our NTNU)
After reading what a graduate from one of Englands top uni's (Cambrigde) have written and done, Im questioning the ability for a "world class uni" to turn out descent people just becouse its "world class" (search for a swede called Anders Aslund, who works in a think tank, and writes lies who he posts on the internet, its pure commedy).

And as Dante points out, we are neither english speaking (altrough most young people in norway can speak it quite well), and we have roughly 1/3 of Londons population.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 03:40   #118
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Re: The new University fees.

Then why were you trying to compare the university system of Britain and Norway?
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 03:56   #119
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Re: The new University fees.

theres a very high population of foreign students in stirling. I share with a canadian, an irishman.. accross from me is someone from the ghettos of london, directly above someone from china somewhere.. there are numerous chinese students all over the place, quite a few of the library keyboards have chinese lettering etc
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 04:08   #120
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Re: The new University fees.

foreign in this case means non-EU Deffeh. EU students pay the same as British ones.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 11:40   #121
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
I would like to see a clearification about definied as a world class uni, and the reasons we need 'em in many ways.
You like having technology, don't you?

Trinity (this was true up until recently, I don't know if it still is) has won more nobel prizes than france.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 15:13   #122
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Re: The new University fees.

You just made my point for me - there is absolutely no reason the government should pay for people to 'expand their mind' or 'experience life at uni'. But if they're going to have their fingers in my pay packet they better damn well pay for me to get the skills I use to earn myself that money.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 15:26   #123
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
But if they're going to have their fingers in my pay packet they better damn well pay for me to get the skills I use to earn myself that money.
A good proportion (majority?) of jobs don't require specific skills to do (well, not prior to doing them). General intelligence/acumen is all that's required.

The theory is that by studying any university course your mind will somehow be more attuned to the sorts of tasks you will be asked to perform in any job. Vocational training (i.e. how to do a specific job) is useless for the vast majority of jobs since things change all the time, or are dramatically different from firm to firm (even in similar industries).
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 16:17   #124
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Re: The new University fees.

Exactly. Those people should go straight into work and not waste the governments money learning about crap at university. I couldn't very easily go into physics research without a degree plus DPhil in physics, so I should go to uni.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 16:30   #125
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
Someone explain it to me. I really can't be arsed to read that Guardian article.

Are they saying that 1k a year the goverment paid for my tution fees (as my family's working class i.e. poor) are no longer going to be there for me?
If your so poor what are you doing with a TV, a Computer, and a Internet Connection?
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 17:18   #126
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You like having technology, don't you?
.
Again, why on earth should the government provide world class research universities? The only real grounds a state education can be justified on is education - ie, actually teaching students. Currently, most of the world's important research gets carried out at private American universities. What on earth is the problem with this? If private institutions want to step up and 'carry' the research burden, everyone else should be thanking them - not whining at the government to somehow 'compete' with them in some kind of moronic penis waving competition.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 17:34   #127
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Re: The new University fees.

Last warning. Anything else that is either needlessly offensive or inflamatory results in a ban. Manson.

Last edited by Marilyn Manson; 14 Dec 2003 at 18:05.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 17:37   #128
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
Heres a thought, get a job, you lazy SOB. If it takes a year, ten years, or fifty years; at least the government didn't have to wipe your butt for you.
Why would he do that? Is the government going to give him a refund on his taxes if he refuses his statutory entitlement?
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 17:40   #129
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Re: The new University fees.

LOL! Statutory entitlement, a fancy way of saying welfare, aka charity, aka a hand out, becuase you are too ignorant to make it without such gifts.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 18:04   #130
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
aka charity
You don't pay for charity. You are forced to pay thousands of pounds in tax every year. Even if you are temporarily unemployed you'll be paying taxes sooner or later.

It's kind of like bemoaning people who claim on their insurance after paying insane amounts of premiums.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 18:10   #131
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Re: The new University fees.

Do you know what insignificant claims against against insurance do? They raise premiums for everyone. Instead of raising tax to give it back to the people, just leave it in the hands of the people. Ultimately if you didn't pay it in tax originally, you have no right to draw against it.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 18:12   #132
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
Ultimately if you didn't pay it in tax originally, you have no right to draw against it.
Everyone pays tax.

And yeah, you're quite right. Money should be left in the hands of "the people". But it's not. You don't have any choice however, you are forced to pay it. Thus the equation with charity is ludicrous.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 18:15   #133
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Re: The new University fees.

If you did not pay it, it is charity. It is money you did nothing to earn other than existing. Now just becuase its a government giving out free money to those who have no right to it, and not an individual, means nothing. If you recieve more than you paid, its charity.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 18:26   #134
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
If you recieve more than you paid, its charity.
It's rather difficult to work this out though. I mean, last month I paid about £400 in tax. If we presume this is even across the year (which it's not) that'd be £4800 in tax for this year. I obviously receive no money from the government (directly). I also then pay taxes to the local government.

But how much is the road outside my house worth (or rather, my usage of it)? How much is my share of the British army? Police? NHS? I could probably sit with some highly trained accountants for weeks (lol) without fully knowing if I'm a charity case if my kids go to Uni or not.

Going back to the premium analogy, I'm not talking about insignificant claims. I'm talking about certain benefits you get from being a "member". You can't opt-out of these benefits (or costs) so getting bitter that people are using the benefits to the max seems silly. If you don't like it, change the law.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 18:30   #135
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Going back to the premium analogy, I'm not talking about insignificant claims. I'm talking about certain benefits you get from being a "member". You can't opt-out of these benefits (or costs) so getting bitter that people are using the benefits to the max seems silly. If you don't like it, change the law.
So I assume you also support benefit fraud?
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 18:36   #136
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Re: The new University fees.

I dont mind the people who use benefits during temporary periods of unemployment, thats what the system is designed to be used for. Its all the damn scallys who have no intentions of ever getting a job and living off benefits their whole lives the same way their mum and (if present) dad did, and all their horde of siblings plan to do as well. If they could find an effective way to get those pain in the arses into jobs it would make me far more satisfied with the system. Especially if it was some appalling job like Sewage Farm maintenace person or something. But, to bring back to the subject of the thread, at least they dont ask for grants to go to uni with.

On the topic of the conversation, it is hard to expect kids to know what they want to do for the rest of their lives at 18. Even those who think they do know may find they change their minds once they go to uni. School live is nothing like university life, which is nothing like working life. When I was at school I had it all planned, I was going to get my chemistry degree and go and work in drug research, preferably at the plant near the town I went to school in which I visited a fair few times. So, I went off to uni to do my chemistry degree and grew to utterly hate chemistry, and it would have been the last thing I wanted to do even if I had actually got my degree (I know, I'm an even more terrible waste of money). Now I'm working in a variety of offices (I've just been offered a permenant position as a senior call handler in a small call centre ) and I would say there is fairly little that has helped me from my degree that I didn't already know from school. All the new skills I picked up while at work. I'd say all my degree did was slightly improve my computer skills, and that was only marginally, and nothing I couldnt have worked out myself soon enough. The kind of skills you need in an office, any office pretty much, arent really the kind of things you could make into a degree. There used to be all those lovely secretarial colleges for girls to go to so they could learn things like shorthand and typing, which are the kind of skills that help, but you couldnt make it into a degree.

The vocational type courses do indeed only prepare you for the one type of job, but they prepare you for it very very well, and by the very basis of the system there is usually a job for you to go into once you complete it (with the people who you did the on-the-job training with). The very stigma associated with such jobs is the reason why you are getting ridiculously highy paid city bankers quitting work to become things like plumbers. The pay is better as they are in such short supply. You cant really do a theoretical plumbing course, you have to be out there seeing situations and learning the ways to deal with them. A university degree in plumbing just wouldnt get people jobs in plumbing firms.

While everyone has a right to education to the level they desire, and I wouldnt really argue against everyones tight to go to university to get one degree if they so desired, they could use relating the numbers of places on each course countrywide to the numbers of workers that use that degree (eg there are stupid numbers of degrees in 'Fashion'. How many of these people go on to become clothes designers of any form) If there are lots of jobs that use a degree then there are lots of positions to study it. Alternatively, for people who dont want to go to uni, there should be a choice of either going straight off to work, or they can choose what kind of 'unskilled' area they would like to go to (office work, sales, customer service, shop assistant, whatever) and have short courses available at colleges where they can gain those skills that would be helpful to those positions, ranging from maybe a few weeks for the likes of shop assistant (the likes of basic money handling, customer service skills etc) up to maybe a term for the more complex, like office worker (telephone skills, letter writing (ok, so they should know this from school but...) and maybe covering how to use sample office machinery (a kind of generic fax, photocopier etc), and the likes of typing (audio and copy) and organisational skills) - see, a lot going into running an office . This would help people get into these positions in the first place, as a lot of office jobs demand 1-2 years experience just to try to get someone who isnt a total ****wit. If someone could say 'I have no experience, but I have done the office skills course, which is worth (say) a years experience then it would help both them and the businesses. (especially the businesses, as they probably wouldnt be demanding the same kind of wage levels as someone who has been working for a few years).

Anyway, enough essay. Thats my opinions on the matter.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 18:39   #137
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
So I assume you also support benefit fraud?
My mother was technically a benefit fraudster .

But getting back to the point, that's dumb. Benefit fraud is breaking the rules (the law). Quite clearly in any vaguely just system we're hoping people are obeying the law. Yeah, if the law is opressively bad, or completley arbritrary then sure, disobey it.

But nah, benefit fraud isn't that bad or whatever. Depends on the character of the crime. Tax evasion could mean a few dodgy write-offs, or a multi-million pound import scam. They're not exactly comparable.
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