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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 15:39   #51
Deffeh
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Re: The new University fees.

its english studies im doing, and yes, quite frankly, its absolute tosh.

You know the worst part though? Its pretty much a DIY course. I get three hours a week of it. Three hours - 2 lectures where im read to along with dozens of other drones, and take notes - thus completely destroying any original analogy anyone could have came up with. And one tutorial for just an hour, where we discuss things. I imagine the tutorial would be quite useful if they didnt give me a tutor who was such a dipshit and seemed more concerned with exerting his intelligence rather than helping us understand something.

The job is mine, to read everything, and understand everthing myself. I write the essays myself, choose the sources myself - actually figure out what im supposed to be doing myself. I honestly learnt more in 6th year Advanced Higher English. The entire course is about bluffing it, really.

Dante's point was correct, that while Eng Lit's material may be rubbish, the skills are incredibly useful. But im not being taught anything here.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 15:54   #52
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Re: The new University fees.

You're assuming that there are skills gathered in Eng Lit; as far as I can gather, it's making any tosh up.

Literally.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 15:59   #53
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Re: The new University fees.

Its analysis, and essay writing for just a couple. What are wrong with those skills?
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 16:01   #54
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Re: The new University fees.

Analysis is only worthwhile if you get something meaningful out at the end, not writing about how Shakespear was making analagies about the problems of the M25.

Intertextuality is one of the most stupid things ever devised.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 16:02   #55
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Literally.
Puntastic!
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 17:43   #56
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Re: The new University fees.

No-one is responding to my electioneering.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 18:03   #57
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Re: The new University fees.

1) There is no such thing as a "degree in david beckham studies"

2) I seriously doubt theres a "degree in pyrotechnics" either

3) Media studies/sociology is not a worse degree than "classics", "business administration" or "lit crit" (we've done this before)

4) "When was the last time you saw a post for a philosipher advertised in the paper". Universities generally dont advertise for staff in newspapers. When was the last time you saw a post for quantum physicist or barrister advertised "in the paper"?

5) The problem isnt so much the proliferation of 'worthless degrees' as it is the lack of American style "breadth-as-opposed-to-depth" degrees in the british university system.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 18:08   #58
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
1) There is no such thing as a "degree in david beckham studies"
Funnily enough, it was given as an example of a ideal type worthless degree. Quite clearly there's not enough material to fill a three year course. I think there's a module of a Media Studies course on it though, but that's utterly irrelevent to the points made.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 18:17   #59
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Funnily enough, it was given as an example of a ideal type worthless degree. Quite clearly there's not enough material to fill a three year course. I think there's a module of a Media Studies course on it though, but that's utterly irrelevent to the points made.
Some would say that a "valid example" should be an existent. If you repeat a lie enough times people end up believing it.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 18:33   #60
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
If you repeat a lie enough times people end up believing it.
You know who else thought that? Oh, right, that was your point.

Anyway, my point was that the hype over worthless degree's is unjustified.

p.s. I'd say that Classics is a lot less worhwhile than media-studies, as at least there's a fair few jobs in major cities on the latter.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 18:43   #61
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Re: The new University fees.

Again, I do think that the lack of 'broad' degrees in Britian is a large part of the problem. Speaking on a purely modular basis, I'll see your "media studies is less worthless than classics" and raise you a "media studies is less worthless than physics/maths". The British system is fine for the 10% or so of students who actually know what they want to do and feel passionate about it, but the majority would be far better off with a system that let you do 'a bit of everything' for the first couple of years or so. Obviously a decent system would try to cater for both types of student.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 18:48   #62
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Re: The new University fees.

hitler
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 18:50   #63
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Re: The new University fees.

Physics is the best degree available. It teaches mathematical skills, improves manual dexterity, furthers correct use of language and requires you to make consistent arguments. So shut up nod.

ps.

Looking at the ucas site...

Cyberspace (2 courses )

This is in the undergraduate degree section.

What the yellow rubbery..?
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 18:51   #64
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Physics is the best degree available. It teaches mathematical skills, improves manual dexterity, furthers correct use of language and requires you to make consistent arguments. So shut up nod.

ps.

Looking at the ucas site...

Cyberspace (2 courses )

This is in the undergraduate degree section.

What the yellow rubbery..?
Note the 'on a purely modular basis' part. The average person would learn far more that they could apply to day to day life in a single module of media studies than they would doing a year of a 'specialist subject' like physics.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 18:53   #65
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Note the 'on a purely modular basis' part. The average person would learn far more that they could apply to day to day life in a single module of media studies than they would doing a year of a 'specialist subject' like physics.
Understanding of statistics.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 18:56   #66
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Understanding of statistics.
Thats probably the only thing done as part of a physics degree that isnt useless, and any decent media studies course would do a lot of statistical interpretation anyway. Besides which, physics doesnt really teach people how to 'understand statistics' in a way which will help them interpret the data fed to them daily, since physics focuses primarilly on analysis of 'objective' statistics rather on teaching people how to decode the intentional/unintentional fallacies that lurk behind most uses of misleading and manipulative statistical presentations. Understanding how the culture around you operates is far more useful than being able to name all 3 colours of quarks, unless you plan on doing something related to the latter for a career.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 19:06   #67
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Re: The new University fees.

If it was up to me, we wouldn't have "degree's" as such, merely time spent at Uni (and you're "judged" on how much published stuff, or whatever)
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 19:12   #68
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
If it was up to me, we wouldn't have "degree's" as such, merely time spent at Uni (and you're "judged" on how much published stuff, or whatever)
While I definitely support this for humanities/liberal arts subjects, I think the exams/degrees paradigm is far superior for foundationalist disciplines like the physical sciences.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 22:47   #69
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Re: The new University fees.

Do you have ANY conception of how much stuff in your life needed a physicist to bring it into existence?

True, what you learn in a physics degree isn't needed in day to day life. I have 'common sense' and 'intuition' to tell me how to open a can of beans (and if they should fail me, I can always ask my mother). I don't intend to spend my life pottering about living out my 'everyday life' existence. I'll be working with the rest of the physicists discovering aspects of physics with applications in the real world.

Quantum mechanics seems like something completely useless, until you find yourself in need of an MRI scanner.

People who do a degree in something like physics with no intention of ever using it (ie: doing a degree 'to get a degree') should be shot, but no one who uses it in their career has done a 'worthless' degree.

A major factor in determining what is 'wrothless' or 'worthwhile' is whether or not you're going to use it. For subjects like media studies, it's fine for the people who actually get jobs in the media, but there just aren't as many jobs as there are graduates - not even close.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:06   #70
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Re: The new University fees.

I think the discussion was more gearing towards what is the more useful for the layman; Nod appears to be advocating a more american style university structure. This is a silly idea, for the 'top' universities at least, because Americans need a year or two of additional training to get to the standard of the English, specialised, courses.

I also don't see why someone needs to understand anything but, say, Mathematics, to be a mathematician at university.

Oh, and physics, as a general degree, is probably the most useful to the man of lay (as it were) because of the respect it has in the workplace (or so it is said).
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:07   #71
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Understanding how the culture around you operates is far more useful than being able to name all 3 colours of quarks, unless you plan on doing something related to the latter for a career.
Useful to whom tho? Unless they're working in the industry, then what makes you think that 'understanding the culture around you' is more useful than knowing about quarks? If I had a desk job with a physics degree then I'd do it just as well as 'someone with an understanding of the culture around them' quite simply because anything you need to know about the culture doesn't need to be taught with a degree. If you mean it is more useful to the individual, rather than the company they work for, then I have to disagree. I'm a bit of a social reject, and would get more out of my life in terms of 'being happy' and 'doing what I want with my life' by being able to sit down with 'Schroedinger's kittens' and know what the hell it's talking about. I'm not interested in all this hippy stuff called culture. That's of no use to me whatsoever.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:09   #72
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Re: The new University fees.

I like culture, but only the bits that I like, such as the correct hats to wear for each occasion.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:10   #73
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I think the discussion was more gearing towards what is the more useful for the layman; Nod appears to be advocating a more american style university structure. This is a silly idea, for the 'top' universities at least, because Americans need a year or two of additional training to get to the standard of the English, specialised, courses.
.
If over 50% of people from 'top universities' went on to get jobs that directly dealt with their degree subject, you might have a point here.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:10   #74
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Re: The new University fees.

Go to ucas.co.uk and look for the keyword 'drink' on course selection.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:11   #75
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
If over 50% of people from 'top universities' went on to get jobs that directly dealt with their degree subject, you might have a point here.
So you want to penalise the people who actually go to university to do a specific course, in view to getting into a specific career?

What?
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:11   #76
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Re: The new University fees.

Browsing the UCAS site for silly degrees, I found, under the keyword 'Drink'

Roehampton University of Surrey (R48)

Internet & Multimedia Computing and Bus Comp

and I know Mark posted this first. He cheated and stole it off me as I was typing.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:12   #77
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Re: The new University fees.

I saw it when I was looking earlier, but I prefered to mention the 'Cyberspace' degree.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:21   #78
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
So you want to penalise the people who actually go to university to do a specific course, in view to getting into a specific career?
what
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:21   #79
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
If over 50% of people from 'top universities' went on to get jobs that directly dealt with their degree subject, you might have a point here.
That's like training your army to crawl back to base with a bullet hole in their leg, rather than training them to secure the emeny base, cos, like, most are them are going to be shot down anyway, rite?
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:24   #80
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Re: The new University fees.

what
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:25   #81
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Re: The new University fees.

Nod, what's the point of University? (In your view)
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:27   #82
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Re: The new University fees.

stupid question, since it depends on the individual involved. The way youve phrased the question implicity accepts the "one size fits everyone" idea that ive been whining about throughout the thread.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:29   #83
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Re: The new University fees.

The people who do not manage to get a job in their field are the failures. People who get a job in their field are the ones who have succeeded. Why do you want to tailor the course for the failures who might as well have spent the three years getting experience of working in an office environment?
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:30   #84
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
stupid question, since it depends on the individual involved. The way youve phrased the question implicity accepts the "one size fits everyone" idea that ive been whining about throughout the thread.
You're taking university to be implicitly equivilent to any form of higher education; the Universities themselves are more geared towards research and the like, which means that they're better suited to train people in the things they research, to do research (or similar).

What we need in addition, is a higher education institute that deals with a more limited realm of subjects, and can deal with a more general course.

Hey, what are these polytechnics I hear so much about?
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:32   #85
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
The people who do not manage to get a job in their field are the failures.
Most people dont want a job in the field theyve studied. You cant really fail when youre not trying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Why do you want to tailor the course for the failures who might as well have spent the three years getting experience of working in an office environment?
noone suggested that.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:34   #86
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
noone suggested that.
You did when you suggested that the UK system, which deals with depth, is a failure.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:34   #87
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Re: The new University fees.

If you're not at university to educate yourself for what you intend to do for at least part of the rest of your life, then what are you doing there?
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:34   #88
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You're taking university to be implicitly equivilent to any form of higher education; the Universities themselves are more geared towards research and the like, which means that they're better suited to train people in the things they research, to do research (or similar).

What we need in addition, is a higher education institute that deals with a more limited realm of subjects, and can deal with a more general course.

Hey, what are these polytechnics I hear so much about?
So are you suggesting that students should get the entirity of their university education paid for by the state, then those that end up not getting a job within the subject they studied can pay back the full $15000 a year (or whatever) while those that do, dont have to pay it back?
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:36   #89
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You did when you suggested that the UK system, which deals with depth, is a failure.
The UK university system is a failure, but not because it deals with depth. I actually said that competant universities should deal with both types of student - in no way would I advocate switching to a purely US-style system, because the US probably has an even more stupid system than the UK.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:38   #90
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Re: The new University fees.

If they want something that's applicable to everyday life, then they should get their arse down to Trowbridge College and do an NVQ in 'Life Skills'.

That is NOT what university is for.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:39   #91
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
If you're not at university to educate yourself for what you intend to do for at least part of the rest of your life, then what are you doing there?
I'd imagine most people are at university because the current structure of society dictates that (any) degree is necessary for most jobs more challenging than teamaking.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:42   #92
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Re: The new University fees.

That's bullshit and you know it.

It may be 'required' because every other person in the country has a degree, so companies ask for it 'because they can'.

It's not actually needed to do the job, because, as you said yourself, people aren't working in fields that have anything to do with their degree.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:42   #93
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
If they want something that's applicable to everyday life, then they should get their arse down to Trowbridge College and do an NVQ in 'Life Skills'.

That is NOT what university is for.
The sole purpose of state funded education is furthering the needs of society, which generally involves training people to perform productively in day to day life. What you "want to learn" has no relevance if you arent paying for it yourself - if you want to leech off others, then you'll get what they are prepared to give you.

If you want to suggest privitising universities and letting individual people decide what they want then I'd agree with you, but lets not mix contexts here.
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Unread 13 Dec 2003, 23:45   #94
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
That's bullshit and you know it.

It may be 'required' because every other person in the country has a degree, so companies ask for it 'because they can'.

It's not actually needed to do the job, because, as you said yourself, people aren't working in fields that have anything to do with their degree.
But MrL_JaKIri has just explained that universities train people how to think, which should help them to do any job they want If I were an employer I'd rather have staff that knew how to think than staff that never.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 00:04   #95
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The sole purpose of state funded education is furthering the needs of society, which generally involves training people to perform productively in day to day life. What you "want to learn" has no relevance if you arent paying for it yourself - if you want to leech off others, then you'll get what they are prepared to give you.

If you want to suggest privitising universities and letting individual people decide what they want then I'd agree with you, but lets not mix contexts here.
You don't need a degree to sit behind a desk and tap on a computer. You don't need the government to train people at university to sit behind a desk. The very notion is ridiculous. If the government is going to pay for people to be educated then they'd better use that education, and that means getting a job in the field they are educated in, otherwise they may as well not have gone to university.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 00:10   #96
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Re: The new University fees.

so if someone isnt certain what they want to do with their life they should travel the world until they are and THEN go to university?
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 00:16   #97
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Re: The new University fees.

Or get a job, yes.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 00:22   #98
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Re: The new University fees.

what if you are FAIRLY sure of what you want to do at university but cant be certain unless you do say... a year at it?
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 00:30   #99
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Re: The new University fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
You don't need a degree to sit behind a desk and tap on a computer. You don't need the government to train people at university to sit behind a desk. The very notion is ridiculous. If the government is going to pay for people to be educated then they'd better use that education, and that means getting a job in the field they are educated in, otherwise they may as well not have gone to university.
Some of the more immediate problems with this are as follows:

1) Any degree discipline which isnt directly employable can no longer be justified (and being employed to teach/research it doesnt count either, unless that research can show direct pragmatical benefits to society). While I personally dont really have a problem with scrapping things like music/classics/theology/english/whatever, I suspect others would.

2) Of the degree subjects that remain, at least half of them require more than a 3 years 'bachelors degree' in order for a student in them to be useful. Youre going to be a biologist without a PhD are you? A barrister after a 3 year law degree? If the sole purpose of university is to train people for a career, thers no real need to keep the current bachelors/masters/phd distinction - if the only reason for studying physics is to be a physicist, why should anyone be allowed to just do a 3 year degree in physics? If theyre not going to go the whole way and devote their life to it, they are just wasting everyones time and money.

3) Most people who enroll at university dont really have the next 40 years of their life planned out. While in an ideal(/unideal) world everyone would know exactly what they wanted to do as a 'career' from their 7th birthday, this simply doesnt happen in reality . This problem is magnified by the fact that the education system in the UK makes no effort whatsoever to help stuents to decide on a career or university discipline, and nor will it until the national cirriculum is abolished.

4) Not everyone wants an education purely for "getting a job and being a productive member of society". If you dropped the number of state funded universities down to handful which only taught 'practical' subjects, youd most likely see a large number of private universities opening up to fill the massive gap created in the market. These would go on to outperform the state universities in every area (including 'practical subjects') for all the normal reasons.

5) You still have state run education, and havent solved any of the current problems with it.


I do like your idea solely because I can see it leading to the destruction of the current education system, but I doubt this is what you have in mind.

Last edited by Nodrog; 14 Dec 2003 at 00:36.
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Unread 14 Dec 2003, 00:45   #100
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Re: The new University fees.

In this thread you see how repeating yourself over and over again gets you a high post count.
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