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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 12:44   #1
JammyJim
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Gates has more money than the Uk :(

...to spend on disease cures.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4653338.stm

Gates gives $600m more to stop TB



take a guess at what the UK is giving....
"On Thursday, Mr Brown had told parliament that the UK would contribute £41.7m ($75m) to tackle tuberculosis in India, as part of the new plan to fight the disease. "


600 million dollars from a single individual compared to 75 million from an entire nation of millions..


i wonder how much he spends per year on charity to help mankind/reduce his overall tax bill?
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 13:24   #2
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by JammyJim
i wonder how much he spends per year on charity to help mankind/reduce his overall tax bill?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_an...tes_Foundation

I doubt it's a tax thing since he's said he'll donate all his wealth on his death, and has donated billions previously.

edit : I'm not sure he pays much tax directly since his salary was / is relatively low compared to his wealth.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 14:31   #3
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

I believe you'll find that the NHS budget is considerably larger than $600m
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 14:47   #4
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

really yahwe?
omg you're right!
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 15:07   #5
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

for all that gates gets a lot of bad press, the man himself seems like an ok guy who does donate rather a lot to charity through his foundation etc.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 15:10   #6
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

yes, like he said he donate 7* out out his 8 billion* fortune to charity when he dies**




*however much he has
** would you be annoyed if you were his kids?
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 15:18   #7
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
** would you be annoyed if you were his kids?
I'd already have my lawyers ready to have his will declared invalid.

But then I'm nice like that.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 16:07   #8
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
for all that gates gets a lot of bad press, the man himself seems like an ok guy who does donate rather a lot to charity through his foundation etc.
Surely the pivotal role hes played in the home computer revolution is far more important and praiseworthy than his helping some poor people? Giving money to charity isnt that a big deal, and I wouldnt say that it helps to make him an ok guy, or a good person.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 16:20   #9
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Giving money to charity isnt that a big deal, and I wouldnt say that it helps to make him an ok guy, or a good person.
I agreed with the first line but this is just silly. That money will save lives and give people another chance. Considering the scale he's giving on I can't understand how you can say it's not that big a deal.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 16:30   #10
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I agreed with the first line but this is just silly. That money will save lives and give people another chance. Considering the scale he's giving on I can't understand how you can say it's not that big a deal.
I meant that its not a big deal compared to his other achievements. When people in the future look back on our era, they will probably remember the computer revolution and the key role Microsoft played in it, not the fact that some poor people were cured of tuberculosis. It's not that Gates' charity work isnt a big deal in absolute terms ($600m is a lot of money), its that assessing him based primarilly on this rather than his main achievements is strange and only really makes sense from the Christian perspective where the worth of a person is a function of how much he helps others. Noone cares whether Newton gave anything to charity, and nor should they.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 16:34   #11
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

people like bill gates donating to charity because it reassures them that despite his history of shady, unethical, often illegal business practices, their lives are not in fact dependent on a complete and utter bastard, but rather a pretty ****ing notable philanthropist.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 16:39   #12
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
people like bill gates donating to charity because it reassures them that despite his history of shady, unethical, often illegal business practices, their lives are not in fact dependent on a complete and utter bastard, but rather a pretty ****ing notable philanthropist.
I imagine that 90% of people give to charity due to some poorly defined sense of guilt, so even if this were true it wouldnt be anything special.

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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 16:41   #13
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I meant that its not a big deal compared to his other achievements. When people in the future look back on our era, they will probably remember the computer revolution and the key role Microsoft played in it, not the fact that some poor people were cured of tuberculosis. It's not that Gates' charity work isnt a big deal in absolute terms ($600m is a lot of money), its that assessing him based primarilly on this rather than his main achievements is strange and only really makes sense from the Christian perspective where the worth of a person is a function of how much he helps others. Noone cares whether Newton gave anything to charity, and nor should they.
People might well remember the eradication of certain previously devastating diseases though. Personally I think enabling people to overcome certain barriers that are in place due to no fault of their own is a rather laudable goal and while I would not expect history to condemn him for not giving to charity I would sincerely hope he would be remembered if he gave billions.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 16:56   #14
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

"i'm not doing as much as i should be doing to help others", mostly. if you want to call it guilt, fine. but either way i think people acting on it is pretty swell. if they act on it to the tune of saving thousands, even millions of lives, then it's laudable beyond comprehension
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 17:26   #15
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I meant that its not a big deal compared to his other achievements. When people in the future look back on our era, they will probably remember the computer revolution and the key role Microsoft played in it, not the fact that some poor people were cured of tuberculosis.
There is a difference between playing a role and making some sort of unique contribution / making a difference. If Gates hadn't been around then the "computer revolution" would have definitely still happened and we'd still have had GUIs and Operating Systems and mice and monitors and everything else. Microsoft didn't really "invent" that much to my knowledge.

Perhaps we wouldn't have had such a pleasurable unified user experience (?) but even that's pushing it. I think at best you could say perhaps it would have happened 1-2% slower or something like that. It's not like Gates pushed any sort of unique ideology / methodology which was radically different to his contemporaries, and it seems reasonable to assume a lot of his success was simply good fortune (e.g. his bundling deal with IBM).

If Gates never existed then there would have been other entrepeneurs / businesses. Perhaps IBM would have won the day with an OS/2 style approach, or maybe someone else who is in relative obscurity now would have been the world' wealthiest man. We don't know, but it's reasonable to assume they wouldn't have pledged so much money to charity as Gates has. That's why people focus on that side of things.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 17:31   #16
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
people like bill gates donating to charity because it reassures them that despite his history of shady, unethical, often illegal business practices, their lives are not in fact dependent on a complete and utter bastard, but rather a pretty ****ing notable philanthropist.
Given that Gates is fairly obviously mostly a software-billionaire, I don't think he has as much to worry about as, say, the owners of Nike, and he probably donates a lot more to charity as well.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 17:40   #17
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
There is a difference between playing a role and making some sort of unique contribution / making a difference. If Gates hadn't been around then the "computer revolution" would have definitely still happened and we'd still have had GUIs and Operating Systems and mice and monitors and everything else. Microsoft didn't really "invent" that much to my knowledge.
If Newton didnt live, then someone else would probably have invented mechanics. However, this doesnt detract from his achievement. Windows was instrumental in the home PC market taking off so quickly, and although you can say that this would possibly maybe have still happened without MS, you can say the same about pretty much anything (and then put it all together to reach absurd conclusions about historical determinism).

I dont see how this argument is all that different from "yeah well, the poor people Gates' saved will still be dead in 100 years anyway".
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 17:45   #18
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
If Newton didnt live, then someone else would probably have invented mechanics.
Absolutley, but they wouldn't have done it then. Newton advanced science through his discoveries. I don't think you can say the same thing about Windows (or more accurately, MS-DOS). If you hand on heart can say that Windows or MS DOS represented the same type of advance as Newton's mechanics then fair enough but I suspect you'd be alone in that belief.

On the other end of the spectrum, Neil Armstrong definitely played a role in the space race, but it really would have made almost zero difference if it was him or somebody else who landed on the moon first.

Last edited by Dante Hicks; 27 Jan 2006 at 17:59.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 17:56   #19
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

As far as I know, Microsoft didnt make MS-DOS. They bought it from another company, renamed it and changed it a bit. Then they sold it to IBM.

Since Microsoft is involved in massive tax evation, I don't think it's so generous of Gates to pay some money back.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 18:21   #20
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
I believe you'll find that the NHS budget is considerably larger than $600m
His total charity contribution to Africa is $25 Billion, $28 billion to charity in general.
http://www.forbes.com/philanthropy/2...1004gates.html
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 18:24   #21
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
I meant that its not a big deal compared to his other achievements. When people in the future look back on our era, they will probably remember the computer revolution and the key role Microsoft played in it,
You mean the role he took in stealing technology and stunting the growth and development of IT through monopoly control and thwarting open source initiatives ?
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 18:25   #22
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Perhaps we wouldn't have had such a pleasurable unified user experience (?) but even that's pushing it.
That's the work of Apple and Xerox he stole there.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 18:27   #23
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
If Newton didnt live, then someone else would probably have invented mechanics. However, this doesnt detract from his achievement. Windows was instrumental in the home PC market taking off so quickly,
There you go, now you got it, his contribution was making it easy enough for plebs to come online and commit suicide on myspace and create terrible websites with ugly colors.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 18:29   #24
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by s|k
That's the work of Apple and Xerox he stole there.
I don't accept the use of the term "stole" in this context. Gates didn't deprive Xerox of anything.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 18:34   #25
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I don't accept the use of the term "stole" in this context. Gates didn't deprive Xerox of anything.
No you have a point, if it was 'stolen' there would have been court action, and maybe there was. He didn't, however, innovate the idea of a mouse. Come to think of it I think Jobs 'stole' it from Xerox, and then Bill robbed it.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 18:38   #26
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I don't accept the use of the term "stole" in this context. Gates didn't deprive Xerox of anything.
because i'm very reluctant to read gordon's rambling (which so far, on summary reading, appears to be arguing that "we shouldn't care about him donate money to africa" to which the obvious answer is i don't and "we should care about his contribution to domestic PC's" to which again the answer is well i'm afraid I don't) i've decided to just poke you.

the term you are forgetting is 'loss of a chance'
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 18:46   #27
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
the term you are forgetting is 'loss of a chance'
Debating in potentialities is demented, however.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 18:49   #28
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Debating in potentialities is demented, however.
yes.

how fortunate that's not what we're doing.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 18:57   #29
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by s|k
His total charity contribution to Africa is $25 Billion, $28 billion to charity in general.
http://www.forbes.com/philanthropy/2...1004gates.html
That's still considerably less than the NHS annual budget.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 19:00   #30
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by Proteus
That's still considerably less than the NHS annual budget.
Well he's no Andrew Carnegie I suppose.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 19:35   #31
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by s|k
There you go, now you got it, his contribution was making it easy enough for plebs to come online and commit suicide on myspace and create terrible websites with ugly colors.
stop making shit posts
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 19:38   #32
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Since Microsoft is involved in massive tax evation, I don't think it's so generous of Gates to pay some money back.

however, i lay that FIRMLY at the door of the american govt. which is remarkable lax at letting big buisness get away with massive tax evasion in america, so singling microsoft out for abuse is silly, as you dont see any other big businesses giving even a percentage of that amount to charity
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 19:39   #33
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Absolutley, but they wouldn't have done it then.
Well, wheres the evidence to suggest that home computing would have taken off 'then' without windows? Before win95, computers werent that widely used - there was the odd person with an Amiga or Atari, but they were hardly a popular consumer good. It was Windows' (and more particularly, Windows 95's) ease of use (for the time) which sold PCs to the mass market. You cant just say 'yeah well someone else would have made something similar'' because its not at all obvious that this is true. GEM desktop, Amiga workbench and linux pre 2000ish were all usability nightmares for instance.

Quote:
Newton advanced science through his discoveries. I don't think you can say the same thing about Windows (or more accurately, MS-DOS). If you hand on heart can say that Windows or MS DOS represented the same type of advance as Newton's mechanics then fair enough but I suspect you'd be alone in that belief.
It's possible to compare 2 things without implying that they are on precisely the same level.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 19:41   #34
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
GEM desktop, Amiga workbench and linux pre 2000ish were all usability nightmares for instance.
RISC OS was pretty damn good.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 19:45   #35
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
. You cant just say 'yeah well someone else would have made something similar'' because its not at all obvious that this is true..
iPods are a nice comparasion here. Were they the first mp3 player? Of course not. But they were what made mp3 players popular. If the iPod didnt exist, would most people today be using a different brand of portable player? I doubt it. You cant just say 'someone else would have popularised them' - for all you know, they might have remained a relatively niche item.

The same applies to the Sony Playstation. Before it was released, computer games were perceived to be almost exclusively a passtime of male teenagers. Sony single-handedly changed this demographic, and turned games consoles into household items. Is it true that 'someone else would have done this'? It seems unlikely.
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Unread 28 Jan 2006, 01:00   #36
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

no, its quite likely actually, sony were just in the right place at the right time, without sega and nintendos games 'ethic' (not sure of the right word there, meaning that sony seem to have got a lot of games that would never have seen the light of days in a sega v nintendo world)
Why were they in the right place at the right time? because the gaming demographic was already aging, and becoming 20 somethings with a lot of disposable income.
Sony seriously hastened this, but the minute that sega started picking up games like GTA, i have no doubt that it would have happened anyway
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Unread 28 Jan 2006, 06:37   #37
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

Gordon is being a bit silly here.
He uses half-worked out examples, changes history to his liking for an argument that can never hold.
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Unread 28 Jan 2006, 11:11   #38
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Well, wheres the evidence to suggest that home computing would have taken off 'then' without windows? Before win95, computers werent that widely used - there was the odd person with an Amiga or Atari, but they were hardly a popular consumer good.
I don't think this is true. There were 257 million computers in use by 1995, which had (more than) doubled between 1990 to 1995. Between 1995 and 2000 it doubled again, but that seems to broadly in line with the existing trend. Computers were getting more popular because they were getting vastly cheaper compared to earlier models (the Apple Lisa was $10,000 for instance), more powerful and there were more things you could do with them. Attributing growth in the market to Microsoft seems slightly bizarre to be honest.

Similarly, according to estimates the number of PC's out there will probably double again in the next few years (fueled by Chinese and Indian growth). Do you really think it's Windows XP that's fuelling this growth?

(source : http://www.jmusheneaux.com/001.htm)
Quote:
It was Windows' (and more particularly, Windows 95's) ease of use (for the time) which sold PCs to the mass market. You cant just say 'yeah well someone else would have made something similar'' because its not at all obvious that this is true. GEM desktop, Amiga workbench and linux pre 2000ish were all usability nightmares for instance.
The Apple Mac's interface (so similar to Windows 95 that Apple tried to sue MS I believe) is a counter-example to this. What MS did wasn't particularly special or different from anyone else, as s|k has noted.
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Unread 28 Jan 2006, 11:19   #39
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
the term you are forgetting is 'loss of a chance'
I was not familiar with the term so it would be disenguous of me to say I forgot it. I have Googled a bit and have found no satisfactory write-up of the term, but from what I have found I still do not see that Xerox had anything "stolen".

Xerox were not even in the PC business, they held no patents over these concepts (afaik) and therefore it seems strange to use terms like 'steal' over such ideas. If I open my shop for slightly longer hours (or develop some other non-patentable idea) and my competitors follow suit, have I had something stolen? The idea in my head? Hardly.

I imagine some argument can be constructed against (say) their business outlook being worse because someone else has done something (e.g. market a succesful product based on 'their' idea), but as they weren't even selling these concepts that seems particularly strange.
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Unread 30 Jan 2006, 02:13   #40
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

why on earth should we celebrate someone "making mp3 players popular" or "making pc's accessible". who gives a shit, this isnt the economic awards nor is it even clear that either have significantly improved peoples lives.
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Unread 30 Jan 2006, 02:19   #41
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Re: Gates has more money than the Uk :(

you're a keeper.
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