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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 03:22   #1
JonnyBGood
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Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

You get calcs like this http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...5kyzaisct94y0t

Seriously what the **** do you want the xan to do there, whore more emp defence or accept the fact he loses value even if not a single ship actually gets to cap? That said I imagine quite a lot of people who will read this are retarded and won't get how staggeringly gay this sort of stuff actually is so I'll post a slightly different calc which will happen later in the round.

http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...kizr1xtxoeg1uu

Your reward here for having some faggot decide to crash and lose his entire fleet on your def is that your def loses 300k value. On the scale of weak shit this ranks pretty highly. Now I mean certainly some big zik planets benefitted last round, which was a 10 week round but christ I'd have my doubts whoever approved the salvage change realised that made a difference, from salvage. And yes these were primarily ascendancy planets because for some reason a lot of other alliances seemed to find crashing awesome. So the response to about 10-15 planets gaining a lot of score off salvage was to cut salvage in half. Ignore the longer length of last round. Ignore the fact that if the government's response to finding a department was overfunded was halving their budget they'd be asked what planet they live on. Did nobody even look at what some of the resulting calcs would be like?

http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...t6iel8lin8azib they end up looking a lot like that in case you didn't!
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 06:11   #2
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
You get calcs like this http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...5kyzaisct94y0t

Seriously what the **** do you want the xan to do there, whore more emp defence or accept the fact he loses value even if not a single ship actually gets to cap? That said I imagine quite a lot of people who will read this are retarded and won't get how staggeringly gay this sort of stuff actually is so I'll post a slightly different calc which will happen later in the round.!
I'm not retarded & yet I still fail to see how staggeringly gay that calc is.
To me that looks how calcs should look, if the attacking ships get to fire then they're going to hurt the defence.
Salvage was introduced to make it easier to rebuild after getting bashed. The purpose was to give planets the ability to recover & continue playing. It was never intended to be the easiest, best way to gain value.

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...kizr1xtxoeg1uu
Your reward here for having some faggot decide to crash and lose his entire fleet on your def is that your def loses 300k value. On the scale of weak shit this ranks pretty highly.
OK on this I fail to see why you should have a reward for someone crashing on you.
Whatever happened to the good old days when calcs were ugly & you were praying that the guy wouldn't sleep in & crash?
Cursing the moron who crashed on your defence, lost all his fleet & cost you score.
That's how PA should be.
Somewhere along the way it went from a small return on lost ships to a serious resource mine for any alliance that could consistently defend well.
Hoping that every attacker on you lands, so that you can gain score? As far as I'm concerned that's incredibly broken.

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Now I mean certainly some big zik planets benefitted last round, which was a 10 week round but christ I'd have my doubts whoever approved the salvage change realised that made a difference, from salvage. And yes these were primarily ascendancy planets because for some reason a lot of other alliances seemed to find crashing awesome. So the response to about 10-15 planets gaining a lot of score off salvage was to cut salvage in half. Ignore the longer length of last round. Ignore the fact that if the government's response to finding a department was overfunded was halving their budget they'd be asked what planet they live on. Did nobody even look at what some of the resulting calcs would be like?
LOL ok nothing understated there.
Ascendancy won last round from salvage. Elviz won the round from salvage. It wasn't a few zik planets, It was a HUGE amount of salvage. The round went from reasonably close, to ascendancy running away with it. You weren't gaining score from attacking. Your opponents weren't losing massive amounts of roids. Attacks were crashing & every time one did, Ascendancy got a big jump in score/value.
We spent a couple days working our asses off, organizing nonstop attacks on ascendancy.
Ascendancy hardly attacked at all during those 2 days, they defended.
We'd line up 10-12 fleets, find a target, set a calc, launch the wave. It would get covered, we'd issue a recall order & some moron would crash.
When we started doing that, the round was very close, after 2 days of that, ascendancy had gained enough value from salvage alone to seriously widen the gap & everyone realized how pointless the effort was & gave up.
It was insane.

There's no way you'll ever convince me that the salvage formula wasn't seriously broken.
The round went from being very close, to being out of reach in 2 days & you did it without attacking & with your closest opponent only crashing 1 of the MANY MANY fleets that crashed.


You won a round by defending. How is that not broken?
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 06:11   #3
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post

That said I imagine quite a lot of people who will read this are retarded and won't get how staggeringly gay this sort of stuff actually is so I'll post a slightly different calc which will happen later in the round.
nice way to start a discussion, call people who might not agree retarded

that being said, I personally would love high salvage, and steals without loosing ships, but salvage was only made to give the defending side an advantage over the attacking side. Not to make it totally skewed.

As it is, the defenders still get an advantage, but now you hope that the attackers dont oversleep cause you will loose some urself. BUT in a war situation, the attacker will still loose more.

Init is once again so much more important....
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 06:16   #4
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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I

The round went from being very close, to being out of reach in 2 days & you did it without attacking & with your closest opponent only crashing 1 of the MANY MANY fleets that crashed.


You won a round by defending. How is that not broken?
they won it by being the best alliance, doing what was best at the time. I dont see a massive problem with winning a round by defending. I think they will win this round by attacking. If last round had had this salvage setup they probably would have won r30 by attacking also.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 06:17   #5
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

something I forgot to say. War is messy and bloody for all sides involved. Back in the days people attacked to get roids, and people defended to keep the roids. I think we will once again see more battles which will be fully covered vs lower tier alliances, to prevent massive losses if / when they crash.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 06:37   #6
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
they won it by being the best alliance, doing what was best at the time. I dont see a massive problem with winning a round by defending. I think they will win this round by attacking. If last round had had this salvage setup they probably would have won r30 by attacking also.
OH I don't disagree that they were the best alliance. If I gave that impression, I assure you it wasn't my intent.

The thing is, it was incredibly hard to come up with an attacking calc where you could gain a large amount of score.
A 600k score gain from an attacking calc when you launched, was a very good calc.
Yet it was incredibly easy to come up with a huge score gain on a defense calc. Million point & even multi million point score gain defense calcs were pretty common.

With the XP & salvage formulas the way they were, it was just seriously tilted towards defending being the easiest way to gain score.

IMO that's just not the way PA should be. PA should be about attacking & the winner of the round should be determined by the alliance that does the best job of attacking its opponents.

It shouldn't be a competition to see who can get the most morons to crash into def fleets.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 06:45   #7
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

This is less a discussion about game mechanics not being tested properly and more a discussion about how the game should be played.

At the moment if I have a big fleet and I storm into a planet and they get defence, then I know that at least I'll take some of them with me (and they'll receive significant losses). This is how it should be; the idea that they can rebuild within a few ticks while I've lost my entire fleet due to poor calculations is just a tad unfair.

Now the idea that defence loses a SIGNIFICANT proportion of their fleet just because the attacking fleets have been so large and have blunderbussed their way through - that isn't right. I'd predict people launching gigantic fleets just to scare off any defence in future. It's what I'd be doing, anyway!

In the earlier rounds, salvage was a small perk to help you rebuild. It wasn't a game mechanic designed for you to replace your ships wholly from those you lost.

In summary - fix the salvage to a slightly higher value. Don't return to the salvage values of last round though.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 08:19   #8
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

For once I disagree with JBG when it's in a post about game mechanics.
As mentioned above in a couple of posts, salvage is designed to give you back some resources after a bashing, not to make spectacular valuegains on.

Init matters alot more in this round
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 08:26   #9
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

First of all, an alliance winning a round by defending is a good thing. I think the game has been way to attack oriented of late. However, I disagree with the salvage. It sure does add more to the game. You can now have suicide clowns with a "smallish" correctly built fleet inflicting other planets actual value loss. I think that PA can become Al-Quaida's next training ground.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 12:34   #10
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

I hate the new salvage system, it means i need a Cath to defend me... otherwise i lose value no matter how much i pwn the attacking fleet.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 12:36   #11
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Changing the salvage just because some people were too stupid to pull and crashed is very retarded , but because asc were smart enough to benefit everyone else jumped on the bandwagon and whinged . As soon as more fleets start landing this round and defenders start losing value you can expect the "i told you so's " to appear
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 12:41   #12
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Well, is this really a problem with the salvage system, or is it the fact that ships with low init now are TOO good now? I think its more the latter. Stats havent taken the change enough into consideration...
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 12:43   #13
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

It actually makes sense that there is casualities on both sides in a fight / war.

Wich we now have....
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 12:48   #14
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

I agree, being able to defend with no losses is crazy stuff (unless you outnumber massively, realistically.)
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 13:22   #15
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

The problem is, you shouldnt have to take losses if you've defended it properly and full-kill the attacker. Its that sort of thing that can ruin an actives round and will cause major problems for both top alliances and bottom alliances.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 13:31   #16
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

tbh i cant see a problem here.

theres incoming

theres defence

when the attacking planet decides he/she wants to end his/her round by suiciding the whole fleet to that defence then its his/her own decision.

theres a combat and logically both sides take a hit from it, just the defence gets a tad of salvage in return to rebuild its losses a little faster..

round is over for the attacker now and defence returns to their planets and carry on.

I have to agree to some ppl above that the situation last round was very strange with all the salvage donations and value building from it. so imo this new system is ok and is made how it should b.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 13:38   #17
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

I can't see the logic behind profiting from being attacked.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 13:38   #18
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

There are a couple of things people have overlooked. I'm not proposing returning instantly to last round's salvage, which if you actually read my post I clearly did agree was overpowered. However halving it is a colossal overreaction. Please try and consider this in real terms, what on earth would you actually halve if you considered it to be too much? And yeah sure try and avoid the massive value gain calcs but calcs where someone loses 25% of his defending fleet value because the other guy's an idiot isn't exactly something liable to appeal to much of the current playerbase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
Well, is this really a problem with the salvage system, or is it the fact that ships with low init now are TOO good now? I think its more the latter. Stats havent taken the change enough into consideration...
You can probably correct the "problem" either way, although there are a lot more variations to consider if you're doing so through stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem
As mentioned above in a couple of posts, salvage is designed to give you back some resources after a bashing, not to make spectacular valuegains on.
Wasn't what I was arguing for, clearly you must have been reading a different thread! Obviously most people thought salvage was overpowered last round. Could it be we went too far in correcting this though? I mean god does anyone remember the hilarious tendencies the pa stats used to have where last round's underpowered race would be the next round's oh my god hot race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowly
I agree, being able to defend with no losses is crazy stuff (unless you outnumber massively, realistically.)
Surely wiping the entire attacking fleet out is outnumbering massively? I mean in the third calc I pasted the dude is outnumbered 3:1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog
Hoping that every attacker on you lands, so that you can gain score? As far as I'm concerned that's incredibly broken.
If anyone thinks that happens last round you're just flat out wrong. I'd say almost all of our value gains last round were from teamups where the majority recalled and one or two idiots stayed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog
Cursing the moron who crashed on your defence, lost all his fleet & cost you score.
That's how PA should be.
I entirely disagree. I'm perfectly willing to concede it shouldn't be an easy way to gain score but in my opinion this is too far the other way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog
We spent a couple days working our asses off, organizing nonstop attacks on ascendancy.
Yeah. No offence, fighting omen and the first time we got hit by 4 alliances salvage helped keep us up there. When DLR were involved we stayed even on roids with ND in our top 60 planets (and we did actually attack, just not anyone bar ND and not with anything bar cr/bs) and they crashed a few fleets and we killed quite a few fleets off them which for some bizzare reasons you'd just find lying at base. I was going to post more but then I read

Quote:
& with your closest opponent only crashing 1 of the MANY MANY fleets that crashed.
and realised you apparently have no clue what you were talking about. I can think of 2 crashes ND had on my gal in the very first night. One was zavva for about a 1.5 mil value loss and the other was a teamup on benneh I think which lost ND about 2-3 mil value. I can't remember exactly. I can remember personally landing with bread and rasputin on silverace who ran his fleet and let his ND defenders die. I can remember kila landing with his cr on and killing at least 2 ND planets, one he lost harpies he'd padded his fleet with on, the other he didn't. BaasB also crashed, I can remember game bitching to me about how much def he'd had to then go and piss away his score. That rain dude also crashed multiple times. These are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head right now. You're full of shit.

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster
BUT in a war situation, the attacker will still loose more.
Oh, I'd agree entirely. My main problem is that rewards sitting out of a war even more. If there's anything I don't want to see in PA it's fencesitting being rewarded more.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 13:48   #19
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by Crowly View Post
I can't see the logic behind profiting from being attacked.
How about profiting for actually sending defense? At the moment it looks like it might end up being more profitable to just keep 3 fleet attacking than to actually send defense to your alliance.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 13:49   #20
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post

Oh, I'd agree entirely. My main problem is that rewards sitting out of a war even more. If there's anything I don't want to see in PA it's fencesitting being rewarded more.
I cant see how this change has made it less likely for smaller / 2nd tier alliances to go to war. They will now be able to land more attacks, make it easier to involve themselves in the "big fights".
I can only see this be a problem for the most skilled players of planetarion, where ofc Ascendancy springs to my mind at once. For avg. joe in planetarion, this change is pretty insignificant.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 13:51   #21
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by Linkie View Post
How about profiting for actually sending defense? At the moment it looks like it might end up being more profitable to just keep 3 fleet attacking than to actually send defense to your alliance.
no. that is not the case, and will not be the case unless your being gangbanged very badly. eXi did that before though, so its not like thats something terrible new thing which this change has suddenly lead to. Its more a matter of these stats being hard to cover certain teamups with, than a change in salvage.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 13:56   #22
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

From what i see, its a case of:
Every time you're attacked (and they land), you lose value.. Making the thought of pnap'ing and avoiding war, a more favourable choice when aiming to finish high.

Which is very bad in my view, considering i hate pnaps and fencesitting
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 13:57   #23
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by Linkie View Post
How about profiting for actually sending defense? At the moment it looks like it might end up being more profitable to just keep 3 fleet attacking than to actually send defense to your alliance.
if u got decent roids and u want to keep em in order to build value then u get defence from alliance. now if the attacker crashes on def and u lose a tad deffing: then the attacker is dead, u got little resources for yer effort and u have weakened the enemy by killing 1 of the enemys members..

why shouldnt they defend ?
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 13:58   #24
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
I cant see how this change has made it less likely for smaller / 2nd tier alliances to go to war. They will now be able to land more attacks, make it easier to involve themselves in the "big fights".
I can only see this be a problem for the most skilled players of planetarion, where ofc Ascendancy springs to my mind at once. For avg. joe in planetarion, this change is pretty insignificant.
Yeah, I can imagine pa easily switching to/back to a game where the best idea is constant attacking as fast as you can. But like, this was a good idea last round too, we'd do it ourselves where possible so I don't see what we're gaining overall. In general I see this as something which will get tons of mid ranked planets roided because it doesn't make sense to cover them. Personally I see this a bad thing. While people might lose interest due to being unable to land attacks, if people get roided every time they get incs they'll just quit. As regards who this could be a problem for it's the relative advantage give to anyone not involved in a war versus those who are. I'm sure you understand what I'm getting at here.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 14:04   #25
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by neroon View Post
if u got decent roids and u want to keep em in order to build value then u get defence from alliance. now if the attacker crashes on def and u lose a tad deffing: then the attacker is dead, u got little resources for yer effort and u have weakened the enemy by killing 1 of the enemys members..

why shouldnt they defend ?
Relative advantage. You'll gain more attacking than you will by defending. So you don't defend. All you want at the end is a bigger score than everyone else.


Edit: I don't think it'll go that far and bear in mind it probably seems like I'm overstating the case somewhat, you always get reductioed out there in cases like this. In all likelihood you'll probably know 2/3 people max who'll get spectacularly dicked by salvage this round and I doubt it's the sort of thing which is likely to change the outcome of the game that much, if at all. It's the tendencies it encourages that I'm not happy about. I believe the best sort of teamwork in PA is built on defence but I'm perfectly willing to adjust. Take it from someone who once won a round without defending once though. It's a much more interesting game the other way!
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 14:53   #26
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I can think of 2 crashes ND had on my gal in the very first night. One was zavva for about a 1.5 mil value loss and the other was a teamup on benneh I think which lost ND about 2-3 mil value. I can't remember exactly. I can remember personally landing with bread and rasputin on silverace who ran his fleet and let his ND defenders die. I can remember kila landing with his cr on and killing at least 2 ND planets, one he lost harpies he'd padded his fleet with on, the other he didn't. BaasB also crashed, I can remember game bitching to me about how much def he'd had to then go and piss away his score. That rain dude also crashed multiple times. These are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head right now. You're full of shit.

We didn't get involved in it until the 2nd night. So I am referring to the 2nd & 3rd days/nights after ND started hitting you.
When we started up the joint channels & started launching attacks non-stop.
DLR members setup the large majority of those waves & we paid attention to them. We went to great lengths to try to get all the attackers pulled once a recall was ordered.
During those 2 days/nights BaasB was the only ND member to crash a fleet that was launched from the joint rooms at least.
While multiple fleets from the assorted other alliances involved in those attacks crashed.
It is ofc quite possible that some ND members had fleets die at home, but the score change on those would be quite small compared to the crashers, because ofc the dead fleets would generate salvage for ND & the score gained by Asc. attacking ND would be quite limited comparatively speaking.

In those 2 days ascendancy was under constant attack & doing a great job of defending & they managed to increase the lead they had on ND by something like 30million score.

We watched it happen time after time, a wave would reach the landing ETA, 1or more fleets would crash & Ascendancys score would jump. Sometimes by as much as 5 million score.

The round lasted another week after that, but those 2 days & the millions of score in salvage gained by ascendancy was really the end of the round.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 14:55   #27
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

BaasB is my hero!
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 15:42   #28
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by Grog
During those 2 days/nights BaasB was the only ND member to crash a fleet that was launched from the joint rooms at least.
Right. Those weren't the only ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog
It is ofc quite possible that some ND members had fleets die at home, but the score change on those would be quite small compared to the crashers, because ofc the dead fleets would generate salvage for ND & the score gained by Asc. attacking ND would be quite limited comparatively speaking.
There were a few 800k+ score swings. -6/700k on def loss of value and 2-300k off roids gained/xp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog
We watched it happen time after time, a wave would reach the landing ETA, 1or more fleets would crash & Ascendancys score would jump. Sometimes by as much as 5 million score.
This is absurd. The largest salvage gain I saw at this point, and the largest one all round to that point I think, was CBA's crash on golan which along with the 2 shitty other planets that landed was about a 2-2.5 mil score gain for ascendancy. Maybe it appeared slightly more in some situations due to smaller prods dropping on the same tick or something I'm not really sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog
they managed to increase the lead they had on ND by something like 30million score.
What actually happened was that we dropped all our prods over that space of time while ND didn't so the scoregain was artifically inflated. I asked everyone to do this partially because fleets win wars and partially because I thought even the mere appearance of Ascendancy going #1 (and I checked prods we weren't actually #1 until some point during the third day of the nap ending).

Trust me on this grog, I have most of last round engraved into parts of my brain, you're a good bit off on how it went down. Our actual score gain on ND was about 70% of what it appeared (remember that's overall score gain coming from like 12 mil behind to 16/17 ahead). Of that scoregain I'd say 80% was due to ND crashing and 20% was due to people crashing on us.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 16:42   #29
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

i agree mostly with what Grog said in his first post, apart from the salvage win of Asc, simply cause i dont have the numbers/stats to argue bout that.
but the overall impression to me was, that asc gained from salvage, more then anyone else

however, what i want to say, that now we are back to an attack dominated game, and finally ppl will be able to take down big guys, cause they will run instead of loosing value in defence, this will encourage xp runs, and the plain value play might not decide the winner in the end anymore.
i am only afraid that hiding loads of value will be even more a good way to win the round (go eksero, this time you sure can win it!)

so for me why changing value sucked, is cause the production rule wasnt changed like mentioned and introduced in havoc r30

cause now, to protect your value and gain loads of xp, you will stay small and hit biggies hoping they cant defend good enough and run instead.

itīs sad but itīs true
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 16:45   #30
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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cause now, to protect your value and gain loads of xp, you will stay small and hit biggies hoping they cant defend good enough and run instead.
and even then, you're round is almost certainly ruined if the person your attacking doesnt run.

The whole attacking play, is now based on your attacker running, if he doesnt.. both the attacker and defender are screwed.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 16:57   #31
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Isn't that how it used to be?
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 17:00   #32
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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and even then, you're round is almost certainly ruined if the person your attacking doesnt run.

The whole attacking play, is now based on your attacker running, if he doesnt.. both the attacker and defender are screwed.
imo quite logical, when 2 fleets go into combat it'll look messy for both attackers and defenders.

defence won't be handled by: If we gain score it's covered, it'll be if the attacker looses more then we do it'll be covered. (your enemy will be weakened more then you are).

about last round i must agree with Grog. Salvage was too important last round. If someone crashes on you, that should hurt you. It will be a different way to play the game, but that doesn't mean it has to be bad. (It used to be like this before paX, in that other game, ...).

Defending is harder, so people will go out attacking. This will only lead to a real difference in Ascendancy I think, cause last round they were the only ones that actually managed to put up some nice defence and play the defending game. And yes salvage did make a lot of difference for you last round, no point in minimizing that.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 17:08   #33
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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this will encourage xp runs, and the plain value play might not decide the winner in the end anymore.
Take this from someone who once finished a round with more xp than a small alliance. It's not that interesting a way to play the game.

I wasn't minimising it, I pointed out that grog was wrong. I actually started my point by saying that it was hugely important in two other conflicts we were involved in!
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 17:11   #34
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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and even then, you're round is almost certainly ruined if the person your attacking doesnt run.

The whole attacking play, is now based on your attacker running, if he doesnt.. both the attacker and defender are screwed.
attacking on the basis that you can only land if your attacker runs, is not the way PA is played though, or shouldnt(if your not cloaked and sending just pods)
launching an attack where your screwed if your defender stays, even if hes loosing much too is pretty stupid anyhow. and for normal attacks (you calc that the losses are worth it) : if there is defence its a recall most likely, as it always was, just with the change that crashing isnt rewarding for the defender(s) anymore.
why should it be?

and no where its said that the winner of planetarion has not to loose any value to accomplish the win.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 17:14   #35
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Take this from someone who once finished a round with more xp than a small alliance. It's not that interesting a way to play the game.

I wasn't minimising it, I pointed out that grog was wrong. I actually started my point by saying that it was hugely important in two other conflicts we were involved in!
yeah i am pretty sure its boring as **** (never tried it myself though)

however that doesnt say, that there isnt someone doing it, and i bet that one will finish with a very good rank.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 17:23   #36
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Pure beetle caths will do okay xp whoring. You can roid terrans/xans/ziks with that 1 ship regardless of what they build. And some of them will do okay but not that many as the xp formula is still pretty cack. My point is you don't want to encourage that type of play. It's pretty mindless. In fact it's probably more mindless than how I played xp, at least I had to scan for ziks who didn't have stolen anti-de/bs.

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just with the change that crashing isnt rewarding for the defender(s) anymore.
Yeah, now it's actually punishing you. Awesome shit. I think if there is a fundamental difference of opinion here between some of us it's summed up in this. I believe that if you get attacked by a moron who decides to kill his entire fleet at your planet you shouldn't have to lose a substantial portion of your own value to kill him. Other people believe that in a war game all/most battles should involve value being lost overall on both sides.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 17:47   #37
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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There are a couple of things people have overlooked. I'm not proposing returning instantly to last round's salvage,
Maybe you shouldn't have made the title of your thread "please change it back next round" you stupid Irish potato.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 17:50   #38
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Maybe you shouldn't have made the title of your thread "please change it back next round" you stupid Irish potato.
Er yeah that'd be my fault. "Please increase it next round" would probably be better.
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 17:57   #39
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I think if there is a fundamental difference of opinion here between some of us it's summed up in this. I believe that if you get attacked by a moron who decides to kill his entire fleet at your planet you shouldn't have to lose a substantial portion of your own value to kill him. Other people believe that in a war game all/most battles should involve value being lost overall on both sides.
you can always run, and take the roids back from somewhere with your undamaged fleet, or you decide, that the guy attacking you is hostile enough to you and your alliance plans, that you will let him die for the sake of the crashing and keeping him from roiding you.
or you get enough (emp) defence to lower your losses to a minimum.

defending is harder, specially if you cant rely on low init ships (emp/killing)
but maybe that will end the boring launch recall shit on some "flagged" planets and therefor make the race for #1 a bit more interesting

i understand your point though, but i dont agree
if a moron crashes on you and you decide to face it its your decission, your not forced to face him at no point

however maybe your right that this is bad for the game. i cant predict that 100% neither can anyone else
we got another 6 weeks to find out

its too early to ask for its removal next round though
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 18:13   #40
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Using xans as examples is hardly valid tho, as you needed quite alot emp last round to actually make xans def gain back what it lost.
Xan last round was suicide def, which it seems to be this round aswell (mostly).

80% or more of the calcs i saw with a xan defender with a decent value last round, the xan lost out (while the other defenders gained).
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Unread 29 Apr 2009, 18:53   #41
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Yeah. I was okay with that. Small losses in your average sort of def is fine, can't win them all. However losing 25% of your defending fleet value while you wipe the attacker out to the last ship is horrific. I mean, do people want me to start exploiting this? Because I will get people to sign up accounts and build ships designed purely to suicide on planets and cost them value if that's what it takes to demonstrate how ludicrous this can get.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 02:57   #42
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

hey jbg thought you knowed by now that the pa team cant do balanced changes it have always been -50% or +100% and a woups, "that went crappy we change it for next round"

it all come from the fact that noone in the team have played a round for years and somehow have lost the idea why ppl actually bother to signup to the shitty game.
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Unread 30 Apr 2009, 07:45   #43
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

after my first night of incs, I can honestly say that covering incs this round is alot harder!
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Unread 1 May 2009, 08:50   #44
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

What about making salvage more score dependant? Somewhere along th elines of;

Top 10 planet gets "r31 salvage"
#500< planet gets "r30 salvage"

and of course a nice formula for everything in between.

And to prevent someone pulling an eksero; letting prod (partly) count towards value should be implemented.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 09:59   #45
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Do small planets still get up to 50% more salvage than top20 planets?
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Unread 1 May 2009, 09:59   #46
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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but the overall impression to me was, that asc gained from salvage, more then anyone else
Think this might have something to do with the fact we had far more incoming fleets than anyone else?
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Unread 1 May 2009, 10:46   #47
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Do small planets still get up to 50% more salvage than top20 planets?
The ingame bcalc still changes as you put in Score, so I assume that part was unchanged.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 11:04   #48
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

I'll agree with JBG,

Grog.. that was good old pa with long rounds where you recover from hit's.. in this pa even 100k value is something, especially in 7 week rounds.. 100k = 5-10 ranks minimium even in top50 as there's HCT limit, out roiding doesn't work unless you can use the roids.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 11:52   #49
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...5c1txq4s3zhyeh

Its called emp def.

With 5 tick def, 50% of the uni cat+xan, that calc is more than reasonable.

Or if u dont like EMP def, try this one

http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...l2bnfx8twedabc

or this one

http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...kn2cd58w7r4z9x

or this one

http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...lcuigcas5nn8jk


I think you get the point.

Dont hate the salvage formula, hate the guy who cant DC.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 11:56   #50
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin] View Post
http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...5c1txq4s3zhyeh

With 5 tick def, 50% of the uni cat+xan, that calc is more than reasonable.

Its called emp def. Dont hate the salvage formula, hate the guy who cant DC for shit.
so hmm.. You think the game is balanced right if you need emp for everything.. aka attacking partner and defencive partner aswell.. ?
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