Prince of wales utterly pwned

[Radical Edward]

The Prince of wales was recently criticised ba Professor Michael Baum for promoting alternatice therapies instead of modern medicine.

Baum told the prince:"The power of my authority comes with a knowledge built on 40 years of study and 25 years of active involvement in cancer research. Your power and authority rests on an accident of birth."

hehe, what a brilliant putdown. (he was nice afterwards though)

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...000337516.html

[Zar]

although tbh,alternative therapies (lets catagorize them into well known substitutes such as ayurveda and tcm) have been practiced and refined for thousands of years.

id trust them them over medicine that has only been around for 100 years.

the only time id really bother with modern medicine (if not forced to by the health department) is in a life or death situation (i.e a&e)

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Zar

although tbh,alternative therapies (lets catagorize them into well known substitutes such as ayurveda and tcm) have been practiced and refined for thousands of years.

id trust them them over medicine that has only been around for 100 years.

You're such an idiot.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

You're such an idiot.

no - im just more informed

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Zar

id trust them them over medicine that has only been around for 100 years.

By the same logic, would you trust religious interpretations of cosmic events over modern physics/astronomy?

[Zaphod I]

Religion is poison?

-Zaps

[Zaphod I]

Not that I was too interested in any religion.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

By the same logic, would you trust religious interpretations of cosmic events over modern physics/astronomy?

traditional medicine actually works

religion - well....

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Zar

no - im just more informed

Informed than whom? Medical doctors?

You also appear to be saying that the entire scientific method 'doesn't work', which means that you think you're more informed than every scientist there has ever been.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Zar

traditional medicine actually works

Define "works". Do you have any evidence or is this part of your "it's my opinion and that constitutes evidence!" theory*.

* I use theory here as a polite synonym for "nonsense".

[IncubusGod]

Heheh I wish I was there, just to go *Zing!* after he'd said that.

[Leshy]

In all fairness, it'd be good to give a definition of what constitutes 'alternative' medicine.

The use of maggots to clean up open wounds, for example, is fairly regularly practiced within modern medicine, yet may be considered to be an alternative treatment to spraying some desinfectant over a wound and cutting away the rotting flesh surgically. In such a way, one may say that alternative medicine does indeed function.

If you take waving a few warm stones over your broken leg expecting it to magically heal, over having it set in a hospital, then I would indeed question one's sanity.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Informed than whom? Medical doctors?

You also appear to be saying that the entire scientific method 'doesn't work', which means that you think you're more informed than every scientist there has ever been.

sorry for late reply had to pick up sister.

now there are many doctors who have practiced modern medicine who also practice traditional medicine.

Secondly, my father is a doctor, with a pharmacy degree (although he doesnt practice medicine much anymore) - concentrates on trade. He used to work for a big pharmaceutical. It seems a fair amount of my family is connected to medicine, and even my ex's father used to be fairly high up in sanofi.

One day they all pretty much gathered at my house for dinner and a chat about their medical rubbish on which i had no idea. The topic of traditional medicine was raised, and the general concensus was that traditional medicine was actually better than a vast number of modern medicine options. It seemed to be argued that it was well known among the industry that pharmaceutical giants were profit making machines (fairly obvious to even a non-medical person). Rules and regulations in the west meant that drugs had to be tested for a period of tie before being released onto the market - however due to the nature of lifestyle, long term effects werent really taken into consideration. Much of modern medicine they agreed upon - is unchartered territory. Long term side-effects are not well known. My ex's father then proceeded to tell us about how drug companies often do research into how drugs can either not do enough... or in the long term mess up your bodies such that in the future you need to buy more drugs from them to remedy the situation (making them more profit). You can think of this as a conspiracy or not - its not relevant to my point.

Now the human body was designed to take care of much of its problems on its own. A headache is usually a primary reaction to a foreign (external) disease to your body. The high temperature is to create a harsh environment. When you take things such as paracetemol, you are restricting your body from doing its thing, instead sacrificing it to make yourself feel a little better. In the long run, this causes all sorts of problems. Your natural immunity falls, your body starts to become dependant on a foreign drug also.

Now if you assume that many of these drugs also act to inhibit natural functions in order to ease pain or speed up the healing (in a non natural way), we can see how people start to get sick all the time, and thus need more and more medicine (feeding the companies more and more money)

Traditional medicine, usually tends to compliment rather than inhibit the bodies natural functions. They are usually created from natural herbs, or in the case of practices such as acupunture by channeling your energy into various spots. If you ever meet someone committed to practicing traditional medicine, and who eats a good diet (and by good - i mean organic and no meat) don't be surprised if you never see them fall sick.

As for why giant pharmaceuticals dont try to leech onto traditional medicine.. well they do. However due to patent laws giants often find it hard to patent medicines that have been around for many thousands of years. I can point you to a recent "neem tree" patent that was revoked, when an indian (group) fought an american company on patent laws. The neem tree had been around for 1000's of years in india and had been used as a natural product for all sorts of things, however an american company tried to patent it for toothpaste. The indians fought this and got it revoked (they seemed to believe that as it was natural and indigenous to india - patent laws shouldnt exist). Now neem has been used for all sorts of thing (malaria, skin etc..). It is something that is desired by many western companies. However recently many of the worlds poorer countries are starting to get powerful enough such that they are fighting these patent laws that are obviously fairly discriminatory. So such rests the case - the giants find it hard to patent and market things that are freely available on the market - and thus dont bother researching into them. Their logic is - "If it doesnt give a profit, even if it is better for humans, it isnt worth marketing"

As for your last statement, there have been a lot more scientists than this current crop of scientists and practices in the last century. There arestill a lot of scientists in china and india for example researching into more traditional forms (as the practice is growing significantly as some people get frustrated with modern medicine)

Purely on those regards - where i (objectively - and yes in my own opinion - i must admit), i find that i am more informed than many scientists who simply seem to ignore practices that have been going on for thousands of years, over practices that have only been around since the last century.

[IncubusGod]

Zar. To make that post just fantastic you should include the words "So there" at the end.

[Leshy]

In many African cultures, sitting with the whole family around the diseased person, chanting in order to drive the bad spirits away, has been practised for thousands of years. Would you say this practice is therefor better than, say, penicillin?

[Zar]

Originally Posted by Leshy

In many African cultures, sitting with the whole family around the diseased person, chanting in order to drive the bad spirits away, has been practised for thousands of years. Would you say this practice is therefor better than, say, penicillin?

if only you knew what i thought about religion

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by IncubusGod

Zar. To make that post just fantastic you should include the words "So there" at the end.

Except it's not what the discussion was about. 'SHOCK HORROR AS DRUGS COMPANIES AREN'T BASTIONS OF PURITY!'

The argument was traditional vs modern medicine. Medicine, except in the 'take some!' sense, doesn't mean DRUGS. It includes diagnoses and treatments of all kinds.

Say what you like about drugs, but I'd prefer a Nuclear Magnetic Resonance spectrograph over 'guessing' any day.

Originally Posted by Zar

if only you knew what i thought about religion

This isn't a discussion on religion, it's a discussion of 'traditional medicine'. Explain to me how a traditional way of treating someone isn't a form of medicine which is traditional.

[JonnyBGood]

It's really an either/or choice. My family is also heavily involved in the medical profession and I'd probably find myself using both some "traditional" and more modern cures. If something works and there are no hazardous side-affects use it.


PS What are we defining as traditional medicine by the way? I'm hoping it's slightly more than fifty leeches and an amputation.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Except it's not what the discussion was about. 'SHOCK HORROR AS DRUGS COMPANIES AREN'T BASTIONS OF PURITY!'

The argument was traditional vs modern medicine. Medicine, except in the 'take some!' sense, doesn't mean DRUGS. It includes diagnoses and treatments of all kinds.

Say what you like about drugs, but I'd prefer a Nuclear Magnetic Resonance spectrograph over 'guessing' any day.



This isn't a discussion on religion, it's a discussion of 'traditional medicine'. Explain to me how a traditional way of treating someone isn't a form of medicine which is traditional.

ok maybe i was a bit vague in what area i meant of by traditional medicine. Im mostly talking about "drugs" or thereby - used to "heal" the body in conventional ways (your antibiotics, paracetemols, cold medicines etc.... even cancer to an extent)

if i had a car accident then yes modern medicine is the better option, as the advancements in technology will allow them to salvage what little i have left of my body and hopefully repair it.

i should have been more specific and for that i apologize, for example i did not bother to include diagnosis (although yes an mri would be better than simply guessing), though when it came to treating the particular problems i might choose a more traditional route.

how about i simplify it by arguing that for "day to day" life i prefer tradtional methods (certain practices - i.e ayurveda or tcm not praying to god for spirit spanking) of healing over modern medicine substitutes.

[KaneED]

Something which intrigues me about alternative medicine is whether its a kind of placebo and the fact that having needles put into your back makes you feel better because you think it will make you feel better, so you get better.

I suppose the same can be said with regular medicine, a doctor can you little pills that look like something official but are actually sugar pills and the patient gets better, but I still think there's a greater margin for placeboism in alternative therapies.

nb. my theses is without any kind of research to back any argument up.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Zar

ok maybe i was a bit vague in what area i meant of by traditional medicine. Im mostly talking about "drugs" or thereby - used to "heal" the body in conventional ways (your antibiotics, paracetemols, cold medicines etc.... even cancer to an extent)

Frankly I'm sceptical about the whole thing, especially based on my experiences. Every time someone I've known has been on 'alternative' medicine then switched to medically recommended drugs, their condition has improved dramatically. When the opposite transition occurred, they deteriorated.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Frankly I'm sceptical about the whole thing, especially based on my experiences. Every time someone I've known has been on 'alternative' medicine then switched to medically recommended drugs, their condition has improved dramatically. When the opposite transition occurred, they deteriorated.

well it is all opinion based i must agree.

what alternative methods were they using may i ask?

also like i said - modern drugs are designed to either speed up the process unnaturally or to inhibit pain, so one assumes (creating an illusion) that their body has actually healed. Even with TM the body cant magically heal in a short period of time. However it will probably do less damage to your natural functions.

[JonnyBGood]

It appears that traditional methods are now commercially exploited as well.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

It appears that traditional methods are now commercially exploited as well.

well yes - that is only natural considering this is the society we live in. However giant pharmaceuticals cant patent them (yet - im sure they'll find a way) so the profits arent as extensive.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Zar

also like i said - modern drugs are designed to either speed up the process unnaturally or to inhibit pain, so one assumes (creating an illusion) that their body has actually healed.

Surely speeding up the healing process will lead to the body healing.

Oh, and 'traditional medicines', if they work, speed up the process unnaturally as well, so that's a really strange criticism.

Painkillers are painkillers, not treatments, though. I don't think anyone on morphine thinks their problems are over.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Surely speeding up the healing process will lead to the body healing.

Oh, and 'traditional medicines', if they work, speed up the process unnaturally as well, so that's a really strange criticism.

Painkillers are painkillers, not treatments, though. I don't think anyone on morphine thinks their problems are over.

no there is a subtle difference between natural and unnatural speeding up.

naturally speeding up something will be speeding up by complementing and aiding the natural defences.

unnatural speeding up will be speeding up by forcefully causing (by introducing things that the body does not 'like' so to speak) the body to speed up in ways that will damage the body (due to it being unnatural).

[sayonara]

Originally Posted by Zar

unnatural speeding up will be speeding up by forcefully causing (by introducing things that the body does not 'like' so to speak) the body to speed up in ways that will damage the body (due to it being unnatural).

Translation:

"Things are unnatural because they are damaging because they are unnatural."

Give me empiricism any day.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Zar

well yes - that is only natural considering this is the society we live in. However giant pharmaceuticals cant patent them (yet - im sure they'll find a way) so the profits arent as extensive.

What a bunch of sell-outs


PS zar, do you have any links to what you're talking about concerning "complementing the natural defences" as opposed to "forcefully causing the body to speed up in unnatural ways"?

[Dante Hicks]

There should be some sort of Godwin's Law style rule about the use of the word "natural".

[JonnyBGood]

What about natural law?

[Zar]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

What a bunch of sell-outs


PS zar, do you have any links to what you're talking about concerning "complementing the natural defences" as opposed to "forcefully causing the body to speed up in unnatural ways"?

ill try find you some later today - about to go out

[Dace]

Originally Posted by Zar

As for your last statement, there have been a lot more scientists than this current crop of scientists and practices in the last century.

No there hasn't

The number of scientists in the last 50-100 years is far greater than every "scientist" that was ever around before then.

I think you said otherwise in your statement (your english is not 100% clear*).











*ie im not sure if you alternatively mean the latest scientists (10 years or so) are fewer in number than scientists from the last 100 years

[Zar]

Originally Posted by Dace

No there hasn't

The number of scientists in the last 50-100 years is far greater than every "scientist" that was ever around before then.

I think you said otherwise in your statement (your english is not 100% clear*).

*ie im not sure if you alternatively mean the latest scientists (10 years or so) are fewer in number than scientists from the last 100 years

Before i rush off...

i dont think this is true. Science is "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena." (dictionary.com)

Scientists have existed almost since the dawn of mankind. There have been many many scientists before the 20th century, and i would imagine far more.

[Radical Edward]

Originally Posted by Leshy

The use of maggots to clean up open wounds, for example, is fairly regularly practiced within modern medicine, yet may be considered to be an alternative treatment to spraying some desinfectant over a wound and cutting away the rotting flesh surgically. In such a way, one may say that alternative medicine does indeed function.

if it is medically approved and funded, it is by definition not an alternative treatment. "old" doesn't nescessarily mean "alternative"

[Dace]

Originally Posted by Zar

Before i rush off...

i dont think this is true. Science is "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena." (dictionary.com)

Scientists have existed almost since the dawn of mankind. There have been many many scientists before the 20th century, and i would imagine far more.

I know what a scientist is.

I'm sure they've be around for ages.

What i also know is the worlds population atm (and hence the % of people who are scientists) is so great that the "current"* scientists outnumber past scientists very easily.




















*last 100 years or so

[Radical Edward]

Originally Posted by Zar

well it is all opinion based i must agree.

what alternative methods were they using may i ask?

also like i said - modern drugs are designed to either speed up the process unnaturally or to inhibit pain, so one assumes (creating an illusion) that their body has actually healed. Even with TM the body cant magically heal in a short period of time. However it will probably do less damage to your natural functions.

ok, so let me see. chemotherapy naturalls speeds up the bodys ability to cure itself of cancer, immunodupressants speed up umm... not entirely sure, do tell. finasteride speeds up the slowing of the enlargement of the prostate, and speeds up the naturally occuring reduction in male pattern baldness. antihistamines speed up the natural reduction in the body's reaction to allergens, antibiotics naturally speed up the body's reaction to bacteria and ..... you know come to think of it I can barely think of a single modern drug that speeds up a natural process "unnaturally". I suppose we could argue that cyanide naturalls speeds op the process of death, but that is a bit of a long shot. can you share a few examples with us?

[sayonara]

Originally Posted by Dace

I know what a scientist is.
I'm sure they've be around for ages.
What i also know is the worlds population atm (and hence the % of people who are scientists) is so great that the "current"* scientists outnumber past scientists very easily.

As in "ten per cent of all the people who have ever lived are alive now".