The PA Value Blues

[Achilles]

Authors Note: Before I go any further I want to state that it would be a mistake to think this thread is about rank or score. Nor is it about who won or lost. It's about the direction that the players of planetarion are taking the game.

Salut! C'est moi.

As of PT1279 there are 4 Cathaar and 5 Terran planets above my bash. When added to the Xans and Ziks there are 152 planets above my bash.

There are 4462 planets excluding my good self. This means that only 3.4% of all planets in Planetarion are 40% of my value or greater. I found myself wondering what this means for the future of the game, if indeed it means anything at all. The more I thought about it, the more I came back to one thing. A phrase coined by a member of this rounds winning alliance.

"While you were trying, we were sleeping"

The motto of Ascendancy. The motto of Champions! Perhaps soon it will be the motto of Planetarion itself.

You see, to me, Planetarion has always stood apart from other games solely because of the amount of effort it required. It was a game in which you had to stand up and fight each and every day, without faltering. One slip would cost you everything. The fate of your entire round could hinge on one decision. You were never more than one heavy landing away from disaster. It was exciting. It was challenging. It was different from the rest of the pick up/set down games that are a dime a dozen on the interweb.

But people no longer seem to want this. They seem to want a game where it's possible to not log in for 8 hours at a time and still do well. The want a soft, cuddly PA that no longer punishes you for having friends/a job/a social life. In reality they just want to hang with their IRC friends and have a chat for a few hours each day. Sending fleet is almost incidental and activity outside of normal waking hours is inconceivable.

In essence it is my belief that the "problem" of XP is not stat based but attitude dependant. It can't be fixed by making a 60 a 50 or by handing out XP based a formula of diminishing returns. In it's desire to make the game accessible to new players Jolt has been shifting the focus away from "hardcore" gameplay. The masses have followed and this culminated in the XP based universe that now exists.

What I believe they Jolt have failed to recognise is that Planetarion is simply not good enough to compete in this enviroment. There are many excellent games that cater for this style of gameplay in a much more modern and fun way. World of Warcraft, EVE, Battlefield 2 to name just a very few. The only edge that PA has on these games is that even the most dedicated WoW player is only a fraction as active as a dedicated Planetarion abuser.

I feel I'm losing my way here and that so I'm going to conclude by saying that, from a personal point of view, it is a great shame that the last true hardcore game is slowly losing it's relevance. But if the masses no longer want it and/or Jolt will no longer push it then I think people may just have to accept that value play has no further part in Planetarion for the little time PA itself has left.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Achilles

"While you were trying, we were sleeping"

The motto of Ascendancy. The motto of Champions! Perhaps soon it will be the motto of Planetarion itself.

Err no. Ascendancy's motto is "Success is a journey, not a destination. So stop running."

What members choose to put in their sig is entirely up to them.

Originally Posted by Achilles

There are many excellent games that cater for this style of gameplay in a much more modern and fun way. World of Warcraft, EVE, Battlefield 2 to name just a very few. The only edge that PA has on these games is that even the most dedicated WoW player is only a fraction as active as a dedicated Planetarion abuser.

This is plain wrong. The difference is that the dedicated WoW player can go out drinking (or binge sleep for 12 hours, whatever) without risking his character. My WoW playing flatmate puts similar hours into WoW to what I put into PA the last I round I played actively, the difference is that he can sleep 8 hours at a time, whereas I had to get up every 3-5 hours to use a fleet.

I feel I'm losing my way here and that so I'm going to conclude by saying that, from a personal point of view, it is a great shame that the last true hardcore game is slowly losing it's relevance. But if the masses no longer want it and/or Jolt will no longer push it then I think people may just have to accept that value play has no further part in Planetarion for the little time PA itself has left.

The problem isn't that people no longer value that style play, it's that the hardcore style of PA is not sustainable. It was great for a few rounds, but eventually you need to move on. But PA's playing population is dwindling. If there were more new players coming than old ones leaving, it would be fine, but there aren't. If PA continues to demand online activity every 4-6 hours to play, then it's got to do more to attract new players.

I agree with you that it's more fun to play when everything is on the line on every attack, when you risk the entire round's work. But I don't want to put in the dedication to build up something like that anymore. I've said this before, but I want to organize PA around my real life, not vice versa.

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by Banned

This is plain wrong. The difference is that the dedicated WoW player can go out drinking (or binge sleep for 12 hours, whatever) without risking his character. My WoW playing flatmate puts similar hours into WoW to what I put into PA the last I round I played actively, the difference is that he can sleep 8 hours at a time, whereas I had to get up every 3-5 hours to use a fleet.

This is exactly my point. The new generation of "hardcore" games allow you to have a life and play. You won't suddenly wake up and find yourself back at level 4. Planetarion was the last bastion of "ultra-hardcore" if you will, but it is on it's knees now. Besieged by the combined forces of common sense and laziness, there seems no escape.

Originally Posted by Banned

The problem isn't that people no longer value that style play, it's that the hardcore style of PA is not sustainable. It was great for a few rounds, but eventually you need to move on. But PA's playing population is dwindling. If there were more new players coming than old ones leaving, it would be fine, but there aren't. If PA continues to demand online activity every 4-6 hours to play, then it's got to do more to attract new players.

I agree with you that it's more fun to play when everything is on the line on every attack, when you risk the entire round's work. But I don't want to put in the dedication to build up something like that anymore. I've said this before, but I want to organize PA around my real life, not vice versa.

I agree with all that you say here. But I think we must face up to the reality that without this extra edge Planetarion simply isn't any fun at all. It's a distraction while you idle on irc with your PA friends. If it wasn't for a community of players, many of whom no longer value the old style, this game would already be dead. Alliances like Ascendancy/DLR/Daous Dava seem to me to be the life support machine that is keeping PA alive. Technically alive. I fear once these last few drops of fun have been squeezed out the curtain will finally drop on PA, as run by Jolt, forever.

[jerome]

Originally Posted by Achilles

I agree with all that you say here. But I think we must face up to the reality that without this extra edge Planetarion simply isn't any fun at all. It's a distraction while you idle on irc with your PA friends. If it wasn't for a community of players, many of whom no longer value the old style, this game would already be dead.

i honestly don't think many people enjoyed pa just for clicking around things...
it has always been nearly completely the community that kept things alive

Alliances like Ascendancy/DLR/Daous Dava seem to me to be the life support machine that is keeping PA alive. Technically alive. I fear once these last few drops of fun have been squeezed out the curtain will finally drop on PA, as run by Jolt, forever.

explain daous dava's relevance to the other 2 there please?

[Squidly]

Originally Posted by Jer

i honestly don't think many people enjoyed pa just for clicking around things...
it has always been nearly completely the community that kept things alive

And now ironically enough, it's a portion of the community {of a bunch of respected players too} who are arguably detrimenting it.

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by jerome`

i honestly don't think many people enjoyed pa just for clicking around things...

I enjoy some moments in PA quite alot. I enjoy it when I cover a ticks incoming for my alliance or when I land a big attack. I enjoy the tension of landing into heavy def because I think it's fake. In essence I enjoy the pressures of being a big planet whose very survival is threatened daily. I enjoy the challenge all of this presents and PA is the only game left that provides this type of enviroment. Hmmm, maybe now it's the case that PA was the only game left...

Originally Posted by jerome`

explain daous dava's relevance to the other 2[DLR/Asc] there please?

Like the other two DD was an experiment to try and find another way to make PA fun. They are similar in this regard.

[Kargool]

The good old PA isnt what it was. Each round the community diminish and the players are less and less on irc. It may be because of the lesser efforts the game requires or it may be because of the game itself have gotten old, stale and out of fashion. Wichever it is of theese two I am sure that PA will have a round or two more in it, then someone will pull the plug.

[Fyodor]

About 15 days ago i toyed around with the idea of xp whoring for the rest of the round. At the time I was ranked about 500 (no alliance/weak gal) I decided to say feck it and burned all of my ships, except fighters. Built a small fighter fleet and went out 3 fleeting. I have to say I get through (attacks wise) about the same amount as I was, but low and behold iver jumped about 320 places in rank. Another week and I could be top 100. This has taken a total of 20 minutes effort a day...I am bored..

Edit: So furball, its not the great terran stats that is causing this, its 100% the xp...

[XelNaga]

100% agree with thread starter. XP wont bring the new players you need, but it will make leave players like us.

[ComradeRob]

There's a pretty simple explanation for PA's decline, almost universally ignored: The original game appeared in 2000. Other games released in 2000 include, for example, Shogun: Total War. Since then, there have been two major sequels in the Total War series, adding new game experiences and substantially better graphics, sound and general presentation. If you ran STW alongside its most recent sequel, Rome: Total War it would be obvious which was the more recent game - and the one people would be more likely to want to play.

Put R16 PA up against R3 PA and it's hard to tell the difference. The graphics are a little bit worse and the ship stats are far less complex, but there's essentially no difference between the games. You still have roids, a fleet, scans etc. and the gameplay is almost identical.

I am surprised that anyone expects a game that has not advanced in 6 years to be doing well.

[furball]

Originally Posted by Fyodor

About 15 days ago i toyed around with the idea of xp whoring for the rest of the round. At the time I was ranked about 500 (no alliance/weak gal) I decided to say feck it and burned all of my ships, except fighters. Built a small fighter fleet and went out 3 fleeting. I have to say I get through (attacks wise) about the same amount as I was, but low and behold iver jumped about 320 places in rank. Another week and I could be top 100. This has taken a total of 20 minutes effort a day...I am bored..

Edit: So furball, its not the great terran stats that is causing this, its 100% the xp...

Wow, I'm now referred to even when I haven't posted in the thread. Behe, I'm honoured.

1) You're 3-fleeting, no wonder 'more' of your attacks are getting through.

2) JonnyBGood has already referred to XP whores creating more XP whores. I can't find the post for the life of me - but basically actions like your own only drive more people to XP whoring and thus not defending. Everyone's doing it now.

[qebab]

Originally Posted by ComradeRob

There's a pretty simple explanation for PA's decline, almost universally ignored: The original game appeared in 2000. Other games released in 2000 include, for example, Shogun: Total War. Since then, there have been two major sequels in the Total War series, adding new game experiences and substantially better graphics, sound and general presentation. If you ran STW alongside its most recent sequel, Rome: Total War it would be obvious which was the more recent game - and the one people would be more likely to want to play.

Put R16 PA up against R3 PA and it's hard to tell the difference. The graphics are a little bit worse and the ship stats are far less complex, but there's essentially no difference between the games. You still have roids, a fleet, scans etc. and the gameplay is almost identical.

I am surprised that anyone expects a game that has not advanced in 6 years to be doing well.

I still play Shogun occasionally. Great game, that was. Sometimes I dive into the old classics, and sometimes I even play them for long periods of time. At the moment, my favorite game is actually Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear. Doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand though, and I might be an exception...

I'm agreeing with Achilles here, I have never been able to play half-active, or "scanning". There's not much joy to it, unless you try your best. I xpwhored for a total of 3 days after I quit playing active this round. I gained 13k xp, without effort at all. It took me maybe 20 minutes a day, and it was all solo, no communication involved at all. I was bored quickly though. This is not a game for me anymore. To me, it is like the difference between Civilization 2, and Civilization 4. The latter is full of shiny things, nice graphics etc. But it is dull, and boring nevertheless, compared the first one, even if the concept is the same.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by furball

2) Jester has already referred to XP whores creating more XP whores. I can't find the post for the life of me - but basically actions like your own only drive more people to XP whoring and thus not defending. Everyone's doing it now.

JBG made that point originally.

[Achilles]

(22:35:10) <[PATeam]Appoco> if you find me some fun powder, I'll mix it into the code
(22:35:11) <[PATeam]Appoco> it surely can't make it any worse :\

From the end-of-round ceremony. Says it all really, not even the people who run the game think it's fun anymore :/

[furball]

Originally Posted by Banned

JBG made that point originally.

Cheers Jester. Edited. Still can't find the post though

[bwtmc]

Originally Posted by ComradeRob

There's a pretty simple explanation for PA's decline, almost universally ignored: The original game appeared in 2000. Other games released in 2000 include, for example, Shogun: Total War. Since then, there have been two major sequels in the Total War series, adding new game experiences and substantially better graphics, sound and general presentation. If you ran STW alongside its most recent sequel, Rome: Total War it would be obvious which was the more recent game - and the one people would be more likely to want to play.

Put R16 PA up against R3 PA and it's hard to tell the difference. The graphics are a little bit worse and the ship stats are far less complex, but there's essentially no difference between the games. You still have roids, a fleet, scans etc. and the gameplay is almost identical.

I am surprised that anyone expects a game that has not advanced in 6 years to be doing well.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by furball

Cheers Jester. Edited. Still can't find the post though

There are a number of reasons xp whores are doing so well. In no particular order these are distorters, the strength of terran fleets, the number of xp whores in the universe itself, the fact that zik fleets (minus ships capped) don't target terran roiding ships until after they've capped, the fact that the war going on for the number one alliance spot is neither over nor clear and that the round is not even close to over. Most of these are connected in some way.

From the top, distorters mean you can fake your fleet. Most DCs don't particularly concern themselves with fakes as most planets don't do them and it would most likely not be an efficient use of defence fleets. Terran fleets don't die. When you add this onto pods already having more armour you can't stop an attacker's fleet without fully killing or freezing it. The number of xp whores in the universe means that a greater percentage of attacking ships to defensive ships are flying around this round (as more resources are spent on attacking ships plus having "a lot" of planets three fleeting) making it prohibitively difficult to cover all attacks.

Zik fleets, the most value-fat targets, don't stop terran, the most common xp whoring planets, from capping, using their own ships. They can only stop them from capping with stolen ships or defensive fleets from alliance or gal mates. This is massive. There is still a war going on to see which alliance wins this round. When it's over, the planets in that alliance will rapidly outgrow everyone. The round is not yet close to over. We're seeing a lot of 1k roid planets emerge. These planets will start gaining score faster than xp whore planets due to both capping and value produced by asteroids. Of course at the minute this is diminished due to the twin facts of the wars not being over and the terran/zikonian dilemma.

Changing any of these factors will affect the effectiveness of xp whoring. Basically it's a modified version of the fact that sitting on the fence in a war gains you lots of value (score pre-r10).

This was from 22nd February in cypher's thread that he deleted himself.

[furball]

It's another post that I'm thinking of, where more and more XP whores exist until there are no value whores left.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by horn

one question i'd like to ask asc players is, did you have fun this round?
not playing as ascendancy (we all know how great cliques are) but i mean playing the game. did you enjoy the game or just who you were playing with?
if the answer is yes, was it simply because you got an unexpected win?
Are you sure it was the actual game you enjoyed rather than the effects it had on you, i.e. playing with friends/boasting to others/beating 1up/unity against the community ?

I enjoyed the game most towards the start when I was trying to figure out my tactics, first started successfully faking people and so on. At this point we were like 18th in the alliance rankings. I didn't know many of the people in ascendancy at all so it wasn't just playing with friends. Nor was it beating 1up as I don't really have anything against them. Also trying to separate the game from the effect it had on you is meaningless gibberish.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by horn

what i was getting at, was whether or not the enjoyment was at all sustainable. for instance if next round, the stats stayed the same but all other alliances adapted their playing style (i.e. they also 3 fleeted for xp), would ascendancy players still champion XP?
was XP an autonomous, paramount factor in their enjoyment, or was it through myriad of factors that probably won't exist in future rounds? (i.e. lacklustre opposition/unexpected win)
I can't imagine how it would be any fun at all. If all players did it, there'd be hardly any high value targets to hit anyway... the margin score between ranks would become practically non-existant, alliance wars would end and defence fleets left as nothing more than "an option".

Firstly not all ascendancy players went for xp, desse finished top30 on value for example. Secondly xp will not work as well next round. In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if PA over-reacted, as it does, and actually having a successful attack become only slightly more likely than me sprinting to pluto and back in five minutes.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by horn

well forgive me for labelling asc players as an XP alliance

Shan't.

for the good of the game, let's hope so.

Yeah clearly the value formula has been so successful considering the rise and rise of the PA playerbase in every round since the game went pay to play.

[Tomkat]

Originally Posted by idimmu

I just wrote an epic post, then scrapped it.

No you didn't.

You wrote an epic post and then somehow lost it by clicking the "Back" button or something.

Don't pretend you did it on purpose :P

I remember you complaining about it in IRC!

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by Furball

It's another post that I'm thinking of, where more and more XP whores exist until there are no value whores left.

This is an obvious quality of an XP driven universe. As the number of XP planets increased throughout R16 the pressure rose constantly on their one food source - value planets. This resulted in a persistent increase of the XP playerbase and a corresponding decrease in the number of value players until there were almost 0 (literally less than 10) value players left in either the Cathaar or Terran races.

It was at this point the lazy, semi-active xp players just started attacking one another for 10xp/roid. It was nothing short of legal farming at this point and any xp player I asked didn't seem to find it any fun.

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

...xp will not work as well next round. In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if PA over-reacted, as it does, and actually having a successful attack become only slightly more likely than me sprinting to pluto and back in five minutes.

I believe this is over-simplified on your part. In the event of a highly defensive statset, which I believe is unlikely anyway, it will not change the behaviour of the 'average player'. This is because at low fleet values (400k-800k planet value) it is impossible to have a fleet capable of defending yourself against people who solely build attack ships.

I believe that next round we are destined to see a lot more of what we saw this round unless serious, non-stat changes are made to the game. PATeam need to take a long, hard look at Planetarion and make a firm decision on what kind of spirit they want the game played in. Bumbling around from statset to statset until they find one that isn't as shit as the rest is not enough. Pretending that "xp is the problem" and that it can be "fixed" with a few stat tweaks is not enough.

These are the kinds of measures that have been taken every round since PA was founded. They have never worked. Moreover they have never lead the game anywhere except around the same well-worn, circular path.

On a final note I would ask people to consider what made the PA community what it is today?

I believe it was a natural extension of the atmosphere that the original alliances brought to the game. They fostered the belief that many could fight where one could not; that you needed other people and that they needed you. It was this self-interest that formed the community and without it the community will slowly fade back to close-knit groups of irc friends who have little or no interaction with one another.

[SOL]

personally i wish they would get rid of XP and stick to the "old fashioned" scores , more ships/roids you have the higher ya score your knew where ya stood and exactly how to play,im not a xp whore and never will be which means i wont do as well as in the early days of pa.

i dont find pa as enjoyable as what i did before,and i wish it would change

[jerome]

i think that post by "SOL" there embodies pretty much everything that's wrong with those who whine about XP right there.

[lokken]

The new stats combined with the revised XP, basically make XP a near non-issue and demand value play, simply because (I have a hunch) they are going to result in defensive play which basically means that the casual player loses out. I don't think this is good for the game.

what i was getting at, was whether or not the enjoyment was at all sustainable. for instance if next round, the stats stayed the same but all other alliances adapted their playing style (i.e. they also 3 fleeted for xp), would ascendancy players still champion XP?

XP with Xan from my point of view was a challenge as you spent an excessive time scouring for targets suitable for faking, and to get the requisite # of roids and xp. The top xan this round was a complete psychopath and managed to finish 4th, which makes him somewhat of a hero as he kept up with terrans who were tougher to defend against (as they had higher class pods and stacks of armor). Xan was challenging and tough at times, simply because there were days where we had maybe 30 targets on our target range on sandmans, and far more players than just us wanting a piece of the action. On top of this you had to be pretty good at "not dying" cos your ships got killed by more or less any defence unless you got a good fake. This, in my view is how an "XP game" should work.

After a while it is very difficult to enjoy planetarion whatever the tactic unless you are pretty well rested and in wars near constantly - i did pretty well playing value with cathaar in round 14 and it was pretty dull. After a while it simply becomes the case of doing a professional job and finishing the job off and as Asc had energy in spadeloads (because we put in far less effort than a lot of others) we managed to do just that. However, I don't see much point in playing planetarion unless you intend to play clever or difficult. I tried both and did a lot worse than if I had just said "**** it" and gone all out terran.

However, if there is one thing I would like to agree with value players about is this: the fact that you can suicide ships day in day out for a profit is ridiculous. While it is a valid tactic, that's not how the game should work. Roiding bigger planets arguably takes skill and commitment over the course of a round to keep attacking every day to have a chance of success, but suiciding in terms of how the game should be makes no sense.

Do I still champion XP? Of course I do, because it offers a different way of playing than staying up at ridiculous hours, because some people quite frankly have got older, don't want to and haven't got the time anymore but still want to play the game. I think it's good that there was a strategy that was time efficient. New players don't want to be chained to a game, as quite frankly there are more important things in life now, the internet is not new and shiny any more. There are infact value players i have little sympathy with, because despite putting in so much time, they still were daft enough to do things like counter for me for next to no score instead of doing something that got them more roids/score.

My view is that while the balance needs to be shifted through stats to help value, we needn't hammer XP because ultimately if the stats are pro value (i.e. a bit more defensive that they were), then it will be harder to get XP, so XP will be much more of a skill game. Yes there are a lot of upset players because their efforts didn't count for anything. But that doesn't mean we should hammer other styles of play out of the game completely, because we're in the business of getting new players in. What makes this difficult to achieve is that the tactic is associated heavily with the winning alliance and therefore it makes XP an easy target to hammer out of the game, when it shouldn't really.

I can't help but think that maybe Gate is making the right stats, for the wrong game.

[[SH]Valle]

i finished 12th with 44k value \o/

http://www.sandmans.co.uk/?p=viewplanet&x=15&y=5&z=6

[furball]

Valle: if you hadn't suicided those ships, you would have finished 9th or 10th.


Just a heads-up.

[[SH]Valle]

http://sandmans.co.uk/?p=rankplanet&...lue&order2=ASC

ah i found myself, dead last in the whole uni! \o/

furball, i wouldve finished 6th like i was for 4 days. just thought this round was so pathetic i couldnt prove it better than to suicide everything and lose all my roids. was planning to end t10 tho but missed out by ~200k

[qSp]

make it hardcore once more! pa aint pa any more:/ atleast not for me

[[SH]Valle]

r3 with science/war paths for the win ffs.... no xp, no value, 3 tick battles and no bash-limit!

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by Lokken

My view is that while the balance needs to be shifted through stats to help value, we needn't hammer XP because ultimately if the stats are pro value (i.e. a bit more defensive that they were), then it will be harder to get XP, so XP will be much more of a skill game.

This thinking is extremely blinkered and short-sighted. Planetarion has been changing the stats every round since Round 1 and it's never helped the game or moved it towards a position of commercial viabilty. Neither will changing the xp formula. It's just not that simple and for the life of me I can't figure out why so many people seem to think it is.

Jolt/PATeam/God (equal chance of each I would think) need to fundamentally change the way the game is scored. It seems clear that value play alone isn't viable, there are quite simply not enough people who want to play that kind of ridiculously hardcore game. A great shame but also an undeniable fact. The future can't be purely XP based as by its almost parasitic nature it requires value planets to be present for it to thrive. The fact that most xp players (I spoke to over 100 personally) seemed to grow extremely bored of this kind of play after less than 1 round does not augur well in any case.

In fact, the only reasons I have ever seen put forward to support xp are essentially that nubs can't be killed and that it requires less activity to do well. Doing something just because it is easier does not generally mean it is better.

[lokken]

I see no problem in putting less time to do well if it requires a lot more skill in your target selection to do well.

[lokken]

I see no problem in putting less time to do well if it requires a lot more skill in your target selection to do well.