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Unread 4 Oct 2013, 22:58   #1
Kaiba
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PA in a nutshell

'Hi mate, im looking to play some online game and you have played that Planetarion thingy for years and years, is it any good?'

'Yeah its pretty cool, ill show you how to sign up and set your planet up otherwise you will really struggle if you dont get it spot on'

'Oh ok mate, so what do you have to do on it? I mean i know its a combat game but is it just a case of who attacks the most wins?'

'No not really, it has alliances and stuff and lots of politics. So it all depends on which side you are on and how lucky you are'

'Oh sounds pretty cool. So i could do well at it then? Is it easy to win? Im guessing those guys at the top of the rankings are really active, attacking everyone'

'Well no, to be honest most of those guys at the top barely attack, and if they do they normally take five mates along with them to make sure they land'

'Oh thats a bit lame, i guess they are helping their friends by sharing the lands tho'

'Oh no, their friends recall the attacks once its a known to be a land. They are just escorting that guy to easy roids to keep him at the top'

'Oh... right. Thats pretty crap, so i wont ever get a good rank then?'

'Well a lot depends on what alliance you are in, the best alliances look after their members planets better and the less roids you lose the better your planet will be'

'Hmm ok, so your in a good alliance yeah? Could you get me in there too? So i can play with you?'

'Ill try mate, but my HC's arent fans of new players, if you dont know what you are doing they wont take long to get rid of you, ill try though'

'That doesnt sound very friendly, i would attack with you though and do what you say, surely that would be enough?'

'Well you would have to give your phone number or some contact point so they can wake you up in the middle of the night to send defence ships to other alliance members'

'well, i like my sleep but i guess i can understand that all the attacking goes on when most are sleeping, seems like a good tactic, i guess if the attackers are getting up to attack i can get up to defend'

'No mate, you dont have to get up to attack, you can set your attack like 11 hrs before it has to launch and the game does it for you, pretty cool huh?'

'WTF man!! Why would a game have that? Why would it allow people to set an attack and sleep all night and yet make people get up at ungodly hours to protect themselves? Thats not even remotely fair'

'Well i could set you up in a smaller alliance? They dont all require you to give a number which means you could sleep in a bit more?'

'Yeah that sounds ok, i really wanted to play with you but no way am i getting up at all hours because of some bent coding with attacking and defending'

' Dont expect your planet to be as safe though man, the bigger alliances like to pick on the smaller ones, because its an easier place to land attacks. Those guys dont get up and defend cos they have no way to contact members to defend themselves'

'What!?! So either i play in a top alliance where i have to sell my soul or i play in a smaller one where i will get hammered to peices by the big guys? The ones that set an attack before they go to bed and then dont have to worry about it till morning? Why do you even play this game man? It sounds completely ****ed up, it must have some cool graphics or something to keep you intrested this long'

'It doesnt have graphics mate, its a text based game on a webpage'

'HUH! Why the hell do you even play????????'

'Well i like the community, we all go on iRC and chat and stuff, i have known these guys for like 8 years now, they are like real friends'

'Well that seems ok, maybe you could introduce me to them?'

'Ill try but dont expect much, they normally just like to abuse new people or send them down the wrong way for a laugh'

'You are friends with these guys? Man why do you even like them? They sound like douchebags'



This is in a nutshell is what is wrong with PA... We will never get new players in with these fundamental bad game mechanics and attitude problems in place. It would be hard for someones friend to join the game, let alone a complete stranger.

I offered out an idea about XP earlier and some random 'cool kid' in #planetarion accused me of being a communist and that people should play PA how they want and not be pushed to do things, like attack and defend. This response is typical of so many people now in the top alliances and in the little troll clubs that appear in others. These attitudes of apathy and elitism is what is ruining the game and i think its time the PA team said sod it and stopped listening to them. For too long this game has been governed by an apathetic minority and it needs to change. I actually have some renewed faith in Lunar_Lamp that he could be the man for this, but i think he needs to act quickly, using his own mind and not have his ear bent by the likes of mz and others (the know-it-all club)

SAVE PA LUNAR BEFORE ITS BEYOND REACH
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Unread 4 Oct 2013, 23:36   #2
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Actualy a pretty well written post Kaiba.
For once you dont look like a douche
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 00:05   #3
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Kai you forgot to add the exiling culture bar that nice post
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 07:26   #4
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Re: PA in a nutshell

I laughed until I got to the end. Now I'm really upset.

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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 08:15   #5
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Why were you laughing?
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 09:08   #6
Mzyxptlk
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Because it was funny? Are you saying you didn't intend for it to be?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 09:35   #7
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Re: PA in a nutshell

It was supposed to have a comic element but also it is the true state of pa. So bad it's laughable....
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 10:19   #8
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Re: PA in a nutshell

I Didn't find anything funny about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I offered out an idea about XP earlier and some random 'cool kid' in #planetarion accused me of being a communist and that people should play PA how they want and not be pushed to do things, like attack and defend. This response is typical of so many people now in the top alliances and in the little troll clubs that appear in others.
Name and Shame please Kai.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
These attitudes of apathy and elitism is what is ruining the game and i think its time the PA team said sod it and stopped listening to them. For too long this game has been governed by an apathetic minority and it needs to change. I actually have some renewed faith in Lunar_Lamp that he could be the man for this, but i think he needs to act quickly, using his own mind and not have his ear bent by the likes of mz and others (the know-it-all club)
I would actually welcome ideas from folk including MZ on how they would save the game if in lunar's position.
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 10:41   #9
Mzyxptlk
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Money. Money! Money!

The game is developed by 2 guys who do the best they can, but who have full time jobs on the side, and (to my knowledge!) no experience with developing browser games outside of PA. With those constraints in mind, no wonder the game is at best(!) an echo of times long gone.

Let's compare it to something else. This browser game is being made by an indie game studio, mostly people fresh out of college, with (so far) temporary art: https://artillery.com/

Now look over to your PA window.

Now look back over to Artillery, and the funding they're receiving.

Now look back to PA again and imagine being a VC looking to invest.

Now despair.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 11:18   #10
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Re: PA in a nutshell

In short MZ you are saying get expertise outside of PA rather than try an inhouse solution?
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 11:25   #11
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Re: PA in a nutshell

He was some guy named shared or something.

Mz is the lesser of the evils that troll these forums. He still have an attitude that is rooted in cynical and twisted into some bizzare idea that all the avoiding/cheating/manipulating in the game is good for pa, and should be encouraged not stopped.
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 11:28   #12
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Re: PA in a nutshell

I'm well versed on his attitude towards "support planets" kai
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 11:37   #13
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
In short MZ you are saying get expertise outside of PA rather than try an inhouse solution?
I would go even further than that.

PA is completely unsalvageable. The technology is dated, the design even more so, the community is toxic, and the size of the player base negligible. There is literally nothing in PA that I'd reuse for a PA v2.0. I wouldn't even advertise it here. The last thing a game needs is a bunch of assholes stuck in a rut.

Any new "PA" should be started from the bottom up, by people who know what they're doing (no, I do not include myself), who have the funding to back proper development and the will to make tough decisions, without paying any attention to what two dozen forum-dwelling players of some decade old game demand.

Quote:
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He still have an attitude that is rooted in cynical and twisted into some bizzare idea that all the avoiding/cheating/manipulating in the game is good for pa, and should be encouraged not stopped.
This is offtopic, but I don't want to let such a blatant misrepresentation of my views stand uncorrected. I am not in favour of cheating. Never have been, never will be. I think that PA players should be encouraged to do anything but what we've been doing for 20 rounds or more. Innovate! If that means using game features in different ways than intended, then by all means, do it. If such actions are harmful to the game, then the game should be changed, not the players. Call that cynical if you will, but I certainly don't.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 5 Oct 2013 at 11:45.
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 12:11   #14
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Good work on turning this thread into personal attacks though Kaiba. Pretty good example of everything you said.
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 17:50   #15
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
He was some guy named shared or something.

Mz is the lesser of the evils that troll these forums. He still have an attitude that is rooted in cynical and twisted into some bizzare idea that all the avoiding/cheating/manipulating in the game is good for pa, and should be encouraged not stopped.
and you wonder why people think your a gobshite
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 20:22   #16
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Re: PA in a nutshell

and we can all see the 2 members of the know-it-all club that felt the need to reply and try and discredit the post, hi gzambo and shev o/
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 20:45   #17
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Re: PA in a nutshell

I'm just congratulating you on demonstrating exactly what you describe in your post as the problem.

Another good example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
This response is typical of so many people now in the top alliances and in the little troll clubs that appear in others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
And that is the beauty of a troll, someone who reads it as real and bites. Well done Bashar you win the Forest award for being reeled in
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 20:50   #18
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Re: PA in a nutshell

It would probably have helped if the OP hadn't contained a personal attack. Not that I felt particularly offended, but by being there, it did set the tone. And now we're 7 and a half posts into an argument about something completely irrelevant.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 5 Oct 2013 at 20:50. Reason: Make that 8 and a half!
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 22:51   #19
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
It would probably have helped if the OP hadn't contained a personal attack. Not that I felt particularly offended, but by being there, it did set the tone. And now we're 7 and a half posts into an argument about something completely irrelevant.
What are we arguing again?
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Unread 6 Oct 2013, 22:19   #20
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Re: PA in a nutshell

nice thread Kaiba.
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Unread 7 Oct 2013, 11:38   #21
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Quote:
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and we can all see the 2 members of the know-it-all club that felt the need to reply and try and discredit the post, hi gzambo and shev o/
Hi kaiba, FYI pointing out that you're wrong is not trolling but hey since you are now the self appointed savour of pa we will let that slide

p's I turned down the membership for the know it all club when I found out you and bitcher were founding members
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Unread 7 Oct 2013, 13:34   #22
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
Hi kaiba, FYI pointing out that you're wrong is not trolling but hey since you are now the self appointed savour of pa we will let that slide

p's I turned down the membership for the know it all club when I found out you and bitcher were founding members
How can you say my suggestions to how to go about it to change the downwards spiral in this game is wrong?
The PA crew has followed the ideas of others for 3 years now without any improvements, ideas that it seems to me that you would be a supporter of.
I have yet to see someone arguing for that prelaunch is good for new players and the less dedicated playerbase is making good enough points to still keep it.
I have yet to see someone wich can explain why smaller tags is good for the game when it comes to getting more players to play it.
I can understand you choose to be in a small tags, and i can understand that you like to prelaunch your fleet on attack, but that dosnt give you the right to dictate how PA should be looking in the future, cus your, and my others beliefs on what is good is WRONG.
I would love to try logicaly explain it to you, or explain it in any way that you would understand what ive been going on about, but i dont think it is possibole.
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Unread 7 Oct 2013, 15:58   #23
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Re: PA in a nutshell

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
How can you say my suggestions to how to go about it to change the downwards spiral in this game is wrong?
The PA crew has followed the ideas of others for 3 years now without any improvements, ideas that it seems to me that you would be a supporter of.
I have yet to see someone arguing for that prelaunch is good for new players and the less dedicated playerbase is making good enough points to still keep it.
I have yet to see someone wich can explain why smaller tags is good for the game when it comes to getting more players to play it.
I can understand you choose to be in a small tags, and i can understand that you like to prelaunch your fleet on attack, but that dosnt give you the right to dictate how PA should be looking in the future, cus your, and my others beliefs on what is good is WRONG.
I would love to try logicaly explain it to you, or explain it in any way that you would understand what ive been going on about, but i dont think it is possibole.
stop rambling about your logic, and show us instead... surprise me
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Unread 7 Oct 2013, 16:33   #24
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Re: PA in a nutshell

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
How can you say my suggestions to how to go about it to change the downwards spiral in this game is wrong?
The PA crew has followed the ideas of others for 3 years now without any improvements, ideas that it seems to me that you would be a supporter of.
I have yet to see someone arguing for that prelaunch is good for new players and the less dedicated playerbase is making good enough points to still keep it.
I have yet to see someone wich can explain why smaller tags is good for the game when it comes to getting more players to play it.
I can understand you choose to be in a small tags, and i can understand that you like to prelaunch your fleet on attack, but that dosnt give you the right to dictate how PA should be looking in the future, cus your, and my others beliefs on what is good is WRONG.
I would love to try logicaly explain it to you, or explain it in any way that you would understand what ive been going on about, but i dont think it is possibole.
Just because its not good, doesn't mean its bad.

As for the OP....Not everyone wants to help out new players, i dont see why you should force them into doing so. I joined HR this round so i can impart some knowledge and help out some new players into learning and becoming better players so then can be of some use when they decide they wanna try something different. Ive always seen the likes of HR as a stepping stone, you learn your trade there then you go pro and join an alliance that competes for #1 on a regular basis. I would much rather see another "training" alliance start up than see the numbers of top alliances increase only to be filled up with new players who don't really "get" the game.
As for galaxies, i don't really know what solution there is to have a status quo. when playing for a top 5 gal you dont wanna have new players when you can have veterans, thats always going to be the case, so there needs to be some form of bonus applied for having new signups in your galaxy, maybe like double score or increased galaxy size, im not sure, i just know there needs to be an incentive you put time into these players for people who dont wanna spend time training when they can just constantly exile till they get the right players
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Unread 7 Oct 2013, 17:58   #25
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Re: PA in a nutshell

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
Just because its not good, doesn't mean its bad.

As for the OP....Not everyone wants to help out new players, i dont see why you should force them into doing so. I joined HR this round so i can impart some knowledge and help out some new players into learning and becoming better players so then can be of some use when they decide they wanna try something different. Ive always seen the likes of HR as a stepping stone, you learn your trade there then you go pro and join an alliance that competes for #1 on a regular basis. I would much rather see another "training" alliance start up than see the numbers of top alliances increase only to be filled up with new players who don't really "get" the game.
As for galaxies, i don't really know what solution there is to have a status quo. when playing for a top 5 gal you dont wanna have new players when you can have veterans, thats always going to be the case, so there needs to be some form of bonus applied for having new signups in your galaxy, maybe like double score or increased galaxy size, im not sure, i just know there needs to be an incentive you put time into these players for people who dont wanna spend time training when they can just constantly exile till they get the right players
Even IF you was to have some hardcoded new player bonus, you would have to be starting with some form of public history DB for each account, and still if that was perfected, people would still find ways to abuse it.

What i would like to see was some kind of history or info page when you click each alliances on the univers tab, and maybe a small logo next to the alliance.
When you click on each alliance the HCs of that alliance would have a chance to explain what each alliance is about, and it will be a good place to have a recruitment information, lets face it alliance recruitment forum is waaay outdated.
Cool GFX/logo and linformation on how many times that alliance has ended top1,2,3, or what ever, would perhaps make it more interested and giving to apply for a alliance.
What i used to love about PA back in the days was browsing through galaxies to look at cool Pictures, or look at certain alliances banners/logos and history.
I think this should be brought back to PA, and it should be easily avaible.
I do think the alliance wiki is excelent, and i do think the page where you can look at past round rankings thats on the PA server is brilliant, but it is a little hard to find, and i think PA crew could do so much more out of the past history of players/alliances/what not for very little effort.

Most people who have runned an alliance before will know what tremendous amount of dedication and time it will take to have it being able to run half decent.
Having someone around the clock being able to run def calls.
Having someone to take care of tech/coding to make the tools fit your needs.
Having someone to be able to gather inteligence and keeping track of the univers.
Having someone to run attacks and making sure everyone is able to attack the targets avaible(setting up team ups, SMSing, ingame mailing planets ingame with launch information, setting up calcs, calcing for def for all those that cant be around certain days).
Having someone to keep track on what members are up to, keep people interested, making sure everyone stays within the bounds and rules of the alliance and are not disrupting the peace, or that none of the members are cheating(if thats against the alliance rules/moral).
It takes a tremendous amount of time, and there is no way in hell there is enough people around today for 10 decent alliance to reach these minimum of required goals for a decent and working alliance.
There is no way in hell a new player will be able to reach a decent ranking and not be bashed to the ground without such a alliance or a good gal.
Ofc there is other ways to run a alliance that can be good for a new player in the current univers of PA, but im pretty confident that new players are more likely to stick to the game if they are given a chance to be in a alliance where there is people around more or less 24/7, and the likelyhood of this happening is minimalitic with small tags.
Its not like someone is forcing everyone to be in a big tag if we raise limits, and its not like you can join a bigger tag acting as a battlegroup with your own channels and what not , and still not being "stamped on" like faceless did last round.

Recoding alliance to be able to have "wings" or "battle groups" is another option.
If your in a tag, there could be a page on univers showing rankings of the battlegroups/divisons or what you would call it.
The alliance HCs would be able to either accept or deny battlegroups within mothertag perhaps.
If a battlegroup/divsion wanted to leave the mothertag they would have to pay a big "self exile" cost(from the BGs savings/fund or what not) to the mothertag, wich the HCs could choose to divide evenly on every member with zero tick delay, and the battlegroup would not be able to join a new "mothertag" before a certain timeperiod has gone by.
A part of the score would go with the BG to the new mothertag(a percentage based on how far into the round perhaps?).
Many HCs out there will perhaps not like the idea of group within the alliance should be able to leave midround, and bring some of their score into an enemy tag, but that was once a part of the game obviously.
This could enable people to create these "special bonds" wich some people think you get from small tags without making the good things you can get from bigger tags suffer.

Lets face it, we arnt gonna get a PA smartphone app straight away.
But there is tons of easy coded things you could implent to make it easier for new players, old players, BCs and DCs to play this game.
What if as a DC you could send a fleet request, the same way you can send a scan request, and the player getting the fleet request would just have to press "accept" and the ships that the DC requested will be send to the planet wich needs the def, without the player having to read through a mail/sms/what not and fill in all the coords/eta, struggling hitting the right boxes/numbers on their smartphone browser, when they get online and opens up planetarion.
Perhaps some people out there think this is waaaay too easy, and its not what PA is all about, i dont know.

Some people say prelaunches is making the game "easier" for new players, and make planetarion fair, or that without prelaunch certain people wouldnt be able to launch or what not, ive heard it all.
So realy, what is prelaunches bringing to planetarion? The more or less whole point of planetarion being brought to a time when very few are awake? and who is taking advantage of this?
When i first got back to planetarion 6-7 rounds back i was kind of suprised when one guy in my gal starting shouting at me for not telling him that my alliance was gonna attack him, this guy was in the alliance my alliance was at war with, and to be honest i didnt even like him that much anyway. Clearly PA had changed a tiiiiiny bit over the last few years.
Now the top gals will know the LTs/fleet setup/etc etc of people who is prelaunching attacks on them, this is a luxury the smaller gals dont have. And directing this to "when playing for a top 5 gal you dont wanna have new players when you can have veterans, thats always going to be the case" perhaps we should start moving away from options that gives these gals advantages, and look what would make the game more fair IF we were to stick with current gal setup/BP setup.
Im not saying that we should remove PL completly, but just rework it.
When you PL a fleet, the fleet will leave the next tick and show up on the targets overviewscreen with the original eta, and it would have a return time based at when it left your planet. I do love the luxury of PLing def, or PLing an attack fleet(even when i know the target is constantly JGPing himself/and know when im gonna arrive or what not), and i think being able to chose a spesific tick to land on without much hassle is very important since we are only having 1 tick of battle these days.
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Unread 7 Oct 2013, 18:39   #26
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Re: PA in a nutshell

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Even IF you was to have some hardcoded new player bonus, you would have to be starting with some form of public history DB for each account, and still if that was perfected, people would still find ways to abuse it.
BB! Well, i'm impressed! Im a returning player. I know the game from R1. But i actually agree that there is a lot more idiotic in this game, like PL. I was like WTF? This is only bad, since its no tactics involved in attacks. And all attacks will be at night...

Anyone knows who own F-Crew tag? I played F-Crew for a year i think, and i really liked it as a training ally, which it stated it was. I played DC and socical relations in there, and liked to help and train others. I liked the DC:ing then, ppl actually answering to calls in IRC since they was there to att, or check atts anyway. Now you dont use irc that much anymore, and it "is a must" to get sms:es. Why would there not then be a small app that reports to you when you have a new ingame message, or def fleet req, or att fleet req, or scan req. When this is the way we want to go?
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Unread 10 Oct 2013, 00:51   #27
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Amicus you should jump on irc join #f-crew from what i know there are a few remaining hc`s idle around in there i suppose thats your best bet.
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Unread 10 Oct 2013, 06:10   #28
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Re: PA in a nutshell

i think im the only remaining f-crew HC that plays
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Unread 10 Oct 2013, 22:07   #29
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Re: PA in a nutshell

PL should never been added to the game.
People are more likely to stop playing if they get roided, than by not being able to land. Force people to attack around the clock, dont force people to stay up and protect roids at night.
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Unread 10 Oct 2013, 22:35   #30
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Re: PA in a nutshell

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
PL should never been added to the game.
People are more likely to stop playing if they get roided, than by not being able to land. Force people to attack around the clock, dont force people to stay up and protect roids at night.
Try to explain it to all of the PL lovers
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Unread 16 Oct 2013, 15:43   #31
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Idk I help new players out all the time, so do a lot of people in ND ... who else can teach the art of crashing better than we.
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Unread 18 Oct 2013, 21:28   #32
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Re: PA in a nutshell

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Money, Money and Money!!!
Let's compare it to something else. This browser game is being made by an indie game studio, mostly people fresh out of college, with (so far) temporary art: https://artillery.com/
Now look over to your PA window.
Now look back over to Artillery, and the funding they're receiving.
Now look back to PA again and imagine being a VC looking to invest.
Now despair.
Even if I kind of get your point, you are comparing apples and trucks, in every meaning of the terms.

- A game for tens of thousands VS a game for 2 people
- A game that runs on ANY web-based device VS a game that in reality will run in a few select desktop browsers with full WebGL-support and HW-acceleration, and not on any iPads, phones etc. (yet anyway!)
- A game that is played over 2 months VS a game that is played in 2 hours.
- A game from 1999 VS a game from 2013

It stands to reason that no sane VC will invest money in PA, because it has "no" financial value, and virtually no hope of providing a worthwhile return on the investment in a sane amount of time.

That does not mean it can not be made both a better game and a profitable game.

To do that, one must understand where Planetarion "resides" in the gaming-world, and to be honest, there are not a lot of people out there with both that understanding, and the understanding of how to take it forward.
One must also understand the strengths of PA, not only look at the weaknesses, although they grow in numbers every passing year.

Obviously I have bet quite a lot of money that I am one of those people, with the new game I am trying to finish (yeah yeah, I know, been trying forever!!!), and as time will show the new game will be VERY different from PA. Because one thing is certain; Drastic changes, and a serious investment, would indeed be called for if PA were to be "re-made" into something good and something profitable.

There is a "middle way" available though, that doesn't require the same kind of investment and drastic re-make, and I believe it is possible for PA, choosing the right "middle way", to avoid further decline of the player-base and maybe grow to somewhere around 5K players.

That said, I also believe even the "cheapest" possible alternative would involve several months worth of full-time development, along with serious re-design, and professional graphics for no less than 40.000 $. If the development-time had to be paid for, and still have some money left for advertising, we're looking at a MINIMUM cost of 120.000 $.
To get this investment returned in 3 years, the game will have to make a profit of 40.000 $ per year, which means each player would need to "provide a profit" of 8 bucks a year.

Statistics will show that approximately 5-7% of the users in this kind of game are willing to spend money on premium content. For PA, it would simply not be possible to get into the required numbers based solely on "payments", but with use of alternate revenue-streams, I believe it would be possible to get an average of about 5 bucks per year per player, which means it would take between 4 and 5 years before the investment could be returned, provided it had 0 running-costs (Utopia).
No wonder the sane and cold VCs would be forced to stay away from any such scenario.

But for others, with the possibility of "providing said resources" for a MUCH lower cost, there could be an opportunity here.

Lunar has his work cut out for him, that's for sure, and specially with no serious investment backing him. It shall be most interesting to see if the chosen path is one that can save PA.
As long as someone is willing to work "for free", it can always be kept "alive" of course, to protect it's historical and sentimental value. But when that ends, unless the chosen path defy all odds, without investments, it's over.

The competition is not getting weaker as we speak.

I hope that some day, I might be able to provide some kind of investment that will aid the future of Planetarion, but during my last attempts that door has been shut.

Good luck Lunar, you will need at least that (and a quarter of a miracle)
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Unread 18 Oct 2013, 22:04   #33
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Re: PA in a nutshell

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
PL should never been added to the game.
People are more likely to stop playing if they get roided, than by not being able to land. Force people to attack around the clock, dont force people to stay up and protect roids at night.
Prelaunch was probably (??) added in an attempt to cure an effect in stead of a cause.
The same can be said about "the number of ships" we build, instantly going into the thousands and thousands, to try to "reduce the pain from losing a few thousand units".
I made some bad calls myself in the implementation of the first Cov-Ops back in round 10, so I am at least as guilty as anyone else.
Bad calls both of them, and they both illustrate attempts of trying to smooth out symptoms in stead of diseases. But it is to be expected when the last, what, 7 years (?), has passed by without a developers vision and long-term plans. Quick-fix -> Instant results! No, I am not placing blame here, but I understand how such "mistakes" happen in the real world.

Fixing actual causes is hard, and it can not be done without drastically changing the game.

The intention of the original cov-ops was "good", it was to make everyone vulnerable to everyone. A small noob could actually hurt, if only ever so slightly, anyone in the game. During any time of the day. No waiting, and instant fun. Back then, that was desperately needed, as the game itself suffered from lack of actual fun even back then.
And I dare say it has gotten even worse since then.

Warning: Here comes the most important point I have written in these forums in years:

- Where is the fun?

An average new user signing up to PA today does NOT experience fun, or positive surprises, at any level, at any time. And this bit is important, in fact, if this single basic point is not taken care of, this game is going out the airlock regardless of ideas, investments, apps and shiny new graphics.

And it's not my 2 cents, it's a full 1000-dollar bill.
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Unread 19 Oct 2013, 01:52   #34
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Re: PA in a nutshell

The game would need an overhaul from the ground up.

Sorry, but the game is rotten to the core. What worked back in 2000 with tens of thousands of newbie players just doesn't work with less than a thousand players.

The game evolved into something where the vast majority of action is overnight, and looks dead during the day. New players perform a few actions, then they're told to wait a few hours until they can do the next thing. Players are encouraged to download a 3rd party chat application, as much as I like IRC - it's a dying chat protocol. Players need to ask for scans to find targets or land an attack. You have to use another site to find targets suitable for attacking.

The UI is dated, the whole process of going through the starting a planet is unfriendly and confusing.
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Unread 19 Oct 2013, 08:51   #35
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Spinner, of course I realise that Artillery's Project Atlas is a completely different game from PA. I believe the point I tried to make with the comparison stands, though. This is the most important paragraph from your post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
It stands to reason that no sane VC will invest money in PA, because it has "no" financial value, and virtually no hope of providing a worthwhile return on the investment in a sane amount of time. That does not mean it can not be made both a better game and a profitable game.
It really does. As long as PA is owned by a company, (potentially) profitable equals alive. The only reason it's alive now is because no one is investing in it. Why? Because any sane person who looks at PA realizes that it's a game on its last legs. We're holding on because there isn't any competition, and there's no competition because this is not a niche market waiting to explode. It's the decaying relic of a time long past.

(I hope your game proves me wrong, but I don't think it will. Not because of any fault of yours, but simply because this is a dead corner of the Internet.)

I'm sure that Jagex really had the intention of investing in PA when they bought it. I'd guess that once they figured out it's actual state, they must've realized they shouldn't bother. There was also the problem that the person who would've spearheaded development left or got fired, but if they'd wanted to enough, they could've found someone else. Perhaps even someone whose nick rhymes with 'winner'!

Instead, they were happy to just milk the wrinkly old cow for the last few drops that it could give. PA could've hibernated like that for a time, but only as long as it remained inconspicuous. 3% on the CPUs of 2 virtual machines, somewhere in a forgotten room in a data center, in a manner of speaking. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) the hack suddenly drew their attention to PA, and not in a positive way. "Why are we still running this? It's a barely profitable liability". They had to be convinced not to actively kill it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
That said, I also believe even the "cheapest" possible alternative would involve several months worth of full-time development, along with serious re-design, and professional graphics for no less than 40.000 $. If the development-time had to be paid for, and still have some money left for advertising, we're looking at a MINIMUM cost of 120.000 $.
What do you mean "if"?

Hey, Appoco, feel like working for me for 3 months, full time, without getting paid, on a game that will probably die anyway?
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Unread 19 Oct 2013, 10:12   #36
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Re: PA in a nutshell

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
It really does. As long as PA is owned by a company, (potentially) profitable equals alive. The only reason it's alive now is because no one is investing in it. Why? Because any sane person who looks at PA realizes that it's a game on its last legs. We're holding on because there isn't any competition, and there's no competition because this is not a niche market waiting to explode. It's the decaying relic of a time long past.
No, it really doesn't
It just means that VCs won't touch it. It CAN be made into a better game, absolutely, and it can be made profitable. But a sane VC will not take the chance.

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What do you mean "if"?
Well, let's say someone had "spare time" that was already paid for, where other projects "soaked up" the costs of manpower and had access to design and graphics on the side, the Project of a PA reboot could be MUCH lower.
Why on earth (or in space) did you think I was trying to get it back ? Did you think I was completely blinded by sentimentality?
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Unread 19 Oct 2013, 10:25   #37
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Re: PA in a nutshell

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The game would need an overhaul from the ground up.

Sorry, but the game is rotten to the core. What worked back in 2000 with tens of thousands of newbie players just doesn't work with less than a thousand players.

The game evolved into something where the vast majority of action is overnight, and looks dead during the day. New players perform a few actions, then they're told to wait a few hours until they can do the next thing. Players are encouraged to download a 3rd party chat application, as much as I like IRC - it's a dying chat protocol. Players need to ask for scans to find targets or land an attack. You have to use another site to find targets suitable for attacking.

The UI is dated, the whole process of going through the starting a planet is unfriendly and confusing.
Back then, PA was different, it was HUGE, it was new, it was somewhat cutting edge. It contained fun and it contained surprises. With the weekly glitch and problem added, of course. We were not as "lucky" as some seem to think, we had a vision around what was about to be made possible by the emerging technology back then, and we had the skills and knowledge to take advantage of it.

Sure, we gambled on the way we allowed players to gang up, to attack together, an approach we KNEW would be "unbalancable" in the long run, but also thought it would be FUN! So you can say we embedded the certain "death" of PA into it's very core, and it was part of the fun.

Now the fun is gone, there are no surpises left, it's dated rather than cutting edge, and competition has surpassed it by thousands of lightyears.

The fun must be put back into the game, and Lunars chance rests with finding the new legs on which this game has to stand. I have previously posted some pointers on requirements, like mobile interfaces, new design, different business model, etc, and that's all well and good. But the fun must be found and put back into the game, in one form or another.
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Unread 19 Oct 2013, 12:21   #38
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Some nice posts made today
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Unread 19 Oct 2013, 20:58   #39
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Re: PA in a nutshell

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Some nice posts made today
That may be, but unfortunately if you read the next 5 most recent threads on this forum, you will find that 3 of them already have everything that has been said in this one. The problem isn't identifying the problems and ideas for improvement any more, it is transferring them into solutions. Sadly all of the 4 threads with these discussions appear to be having no discernible impact on PA Team and what they are doing. They haven't responded to anything said with any substance or provided feedback through any means to the community on how they intend to take these ideas forward (or even that they are considering them). The only announcements to the community have been watery sentiments on a desire to return PA to past glories, there has been no details on the hows and whens.

Sadly, until this situation changes all these discussions will just go round and round.
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Unread 19 Oct 2013, 22:04   #40
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Re: PA in a nutshell

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Originally Posted by Bashar View Post
That may be, but unfortunately if you read the next 5 most recent threads on this forum, you will find that 3 of them already have everything that has been said in this one. The problem isn't identifying the problems and ideas for improvement any more, it is transferring them into solutions. Sadly all of the 4 threads with these discussions appear to be having no discernible impact on PA Team and what they are doing. They haven't responded to anything said with any substance or provided feedback through any means to the community on how they intend to take these ideas forward (or even that they are considering them). The only announcements to the community have been watery sentiments on a desire to return PA to past glories, there has been no details on the hows and whens.

Sadly, until this situation changes all these discussions will just go round and round.
basicly, it's 5 threads flogging a dead horse, nothing new there, all threads in the last 5 years have been the same.
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Unread 19 Oct 2013, 22:05   #41
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Re: PA in a nutshell

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Originally Posted by Bashar View Post
That may be, but unfortunately if you read the next 5 most recent threads on this forum, you will find that 3 of them already have everything that has been said in this one. The problem isn't identifying the problems and ideas for improvement any more, it is transferring them into solutions. Sadly all of the 4 threads with these discussions appear to be having no discernible impact on PA Team and what they are doing. They haven't responded to anything said with any substance or provided feedback through any means to the community on how they intend to take these ideas forward (or even that they are considering them). The only announcements to the community have been watery sentiments on a desire to return PA to past glories, there has been no details on the hows and whens.

Sadly, until this situation changes all these discussions will just go round and round.
Theyve listened to keeping BPs as it is today, lowering alliance limits, keeping PL, keeping ETD as a race, making the game more induvidual based, ideas wich makes it harder for New players, keeping exile system, and a lot of other Things.
dont come say that they arnt watching, cus a lot of People are happy With the game as it is today
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Unread 20 Oct 2013, 01:46   #42
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Re: PA in a nutshell

maybe try for a round, random round, no bp, increase alliance limit by 10, keep counted at 50.
make exile more limited like once every 12 hours or something.
no vac mode.
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Unread 20 Oct 2013, 20:00   #43
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Re: PA in a nutshell

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Originally Posted by [DDK]gm View Post
maybe try for a round, random round, no bp, increase alliance limit by 10, keep counted at 50.
make exile more limited like once every 12 hours or something.
no vac mode.
While I am sure your suggestions may have merit, I would recommend thinking a little bit more "outside the box".
BPs, PL, Alliance-limits, Exiles etc are all areas that need consideration, but I do not believe that is where the fun-element will be found.

I remember one early round, no clue which one it was though, we intentionally overpowered a few ships. I seem they were Xandathrii. We did it to try to add some more "feel" to the game, like "let's see if we can make people learn to fear that incoming xan-fleet".

Maybe someone should consider whether it IS a perfect idea to have the shipstats public too, maybe some more information can be hidden to allow for some surprises, devastating though as they can be!

Can a surprise, or a bit of story and a backdrop, be included in the signup-process maybe? It doesn't have to be much!

And please consider the number of ships in play, as in building thousands and thousands of them right from the bat. It just water things out, a ship doesn't mean anything this way.
Losing a number of BATTLESHIPS should be painful! Without that pain, the feeling of a "win" has much less "gain". I seem to recall the battleships in the first rounds to be absolutely TERRIBLE, they were damn near invincible!

Some of the most memorable rounds of PA have come from risky balance. Remember the first version of the cloaked ships? Or the first stealing-rounds?

Could bonuses be handed out to people holding various rankings at set time? Say at every 100 ticks or so, whoever has the most XP, Score, Value, Landed fleets, Killed opponent ships, the most successful cov-ops, the best scanner, gets a reward? With an achievement that is visible too, so he can brag "I got the Best Scanner award!"

Surprise your players, create fun for your players, even small things can be a lot of fun!
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Unread 20 Oct 2013, 21:39   #44
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Re: PA in a nutshell

Some very good ideas there Spinner. I think the best of the lot is actually hiding the ship stats. This would get a lot of resistance from a lot of people, but it would introduce that difficulty factor that helps provide a sense of achievement, whilst simultaneously encouraging people to interact with each other more to share ship experience/knowledge. I think that was the beauty of PA in the early days, the way that the community needed to work together and help each other. Each player could find their own niche where they could help their galaxy/cluster/alliance/friends. For some it would be help through mathematical analysis of tactics and strategies, for others it would be technical support for tools, others still would contribute through being good leaders, being good planet builders or even just simply by having that bit of charisma that would help gel the team together. Too many of these abilities have been artificially negated by game developments in an attempt to remove the disadvantages newer players have over those who are well organised, consequently removing the pull of the one thing that made the game great.
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 00:21   #45
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Re: PA in a nutshell

I like the idea of Adding in a surprise.
Im dissapointed that Appocomaster / PA team hasn't done something different for next round. (as yet)

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Some very good ideas there Spinner. I think the best of the lot is actually hiding the ship stats. This would get a lot of resistance from a lot of people,
Making stealers die is a gripe that I do have. It makes rounds like r14 stats very hard to match.
But I get why it was introduced because players like me (and my BG) in R18 made their round strategy to fleetcatch alliance hostile ships and have a defense tolerance where there was a good % of landing and gain value and score via capping ships that weren't able to flee rather than conventional raiding for roids. Those victims would lose their (or one of) roiding fleets and a loss in value that was usually a round ender.
Some would have the attitude of "The PA team are Ruining my Fun" Some would have the attitude of I can see how this style of play can be detrimental to the Game/Community.

Some round have been Single Targetting my fav in recent times was going zik in R42 and roiding xans all round usually faking de as cr etc and been able to land on def (the wrong kind) to rounds were it is been 3 ship spamming Multi targetting rounds. The MT rounds usually needed lolwaves on top targets / noobroiding with a single fleet to gain roids. Each aid various different playing styles.

I had a shot of making the stats in R48 and got alot of resistance off some folk because they were offensive stats and had accusations of Aiding CT to suit their attack style when I hadn't been ct since r40.

My Experience of playing PA is that the ship stats are near exhasted in terms of new playing styles. I still enjoy the Strategy that PA offers both as an individual and DC/BCing. I would to see things like having fleet Admirals (with different types of strengths customed to their Ruler / planet and not to ship stats.) without making it too complicated to new players.

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but it would introduce that difficulty factor that helps provide a sense of achievement, whilst simultaneously encouraging people to interact with each other more to share ship experience/knowledge. I think that was the beauty of PA in the early days, the way that the community needed to work together and help each other. Each player could find their own niche where they could help their galaxy/cluster/alliance/friends.
From my perspective I first played PA in r2-5 (memory has failed me) but it was for 1 round. where you could attack ingal. My gal asked me to be a roid farm for them just for them to be farmed off legion at the time. (there goes my hard work)
I didn't play PA again till late R13 and only checked out www.planetarion.com out of curiousity and got playing again.

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For some it would be help through mathematical analysis of tactics and strategies, for others it would be technical support for tools, others still would contribute through being good leaders, being good planet builders or even just simply by having that bit of charisma that would help gel the team together.
I do love how the communities like #scans have came through.
Also most alliances using similar tech like Merlin web&bot with intergrated Sandmans clone.

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Too many of these abilities have been artificially negated by game developments in an attempt to remove the disadvantages newer players have over those who are well organised, consequently removing the pull of the one thing that made the game great.
Give examples please.
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 14:14   #46
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Re: PA in a nutshell

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Originally Posted by Bashar View Post
The problem isn't identifying the problems and ideas for improvement any more, it is transferring them into solutions. Sadly all of the 4 threads with these discussions appear to be having no discernible impact on PA Team and what they are doing.... The only announcements to the community have been watery sentiments on a desire to return PA to past glories, there has been no details on the hows and whens.

Sadly, until this situation changes all these discussions will just go round and round.
They need additional help from people with experience, people with some spare time and enthusiasm. Possibly even passing on the head role to someone with vision to turn things around, instead of the tweaking a few things each round to keep existing players entertained for another round.
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