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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 19:14   #1
Appocomaster
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Galaxy Setup

While the basic galaxy setup has been decided, I've got some not-completely-formed ideas that I thought everyone might want to crash course, as something to do for the new year

Galaxy Bash Limits

Basically, I've been considering the pros and cons of galaxy bash limits.

On the plus side, if it was implemented at say 30% score, it'd not mean that when a big planet exiled into a small galaxy he immediately got flatttened by 1000 incomings from bigger galaxies.
It'd also stop some Ziks from sneaking in to steal inactives fleets, and might give a chance for smaller planets to grow a bit more before they're destroyed in general.


On the other hand, smaller planets in big galaxies would find it hard work to find targets to hit and would have to rely more on others in their galaxy. Also, it could be 'abused' by having bigger planets hiding in there (as opposed to c200).

At the very least, I'm sure that there'd be less complaints about landing in small galaxies


Self Exile
To slightly counter this / in addition to it, it might be worth making a change to the exile formula as follows:

the current exile cost woule be if you were at a galaxy who's score was half the average galaxy score in the active universe (universe minus c200 and 1:1). If your galaxy was higher ranked, then exile would be more expensive, and if your galaxy was lower ranked, then exile would be less expensive.

This would make people think twice about exiling from higher ranked galaxies to try and get into even higher ranked galaxies, as it'd be less affordable. Conversely, if you kept getting unlucky and landing in the bottom galaxies, it'd be easier to get out.


I'd love feedback as to if this is seen as a 'good' idea for next round or round 21, and why
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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 19:26   #2
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Galaxy Bash Limits
Did I understand this correctly when I think that a member of one galaxy can only attack a member of another galaxy, if the latter galaxy is within the bashlimit, similar to the planet bash limit in effect today?
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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 19:27   #3
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Yes
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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 19:35   #4
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Re: Galaxy Setup

With both suggestions put together, I wouldn't mind paying a little extra if I was higher ranked, to actually exile into a smaller galaxy, and hence be protected against (not all, but some) incomings.

I think the possibility to exile should either be removed completely, or just disabled for members of higher ranked galaxies.
To counter the problem of planets in high ranked galaxies exiling into even higher ranked gals, the latter option is perhaps not such a bad idea?
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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 19:44   #5
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Cedlind brings up a good point, and I was about to go hurrah! over those suggestions.

mind u having said that, if u want to land in a lower galaxy to have the galaxy bash limit protection it's a valid enough tactic. You'll be fairly lonely though
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 03:12   #6
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Since people attack with their alliances rather than with their galaxy, i don't see the logic in a galaxy bash limit. I do understand the idea and I would have no problem in a universe with 10k planets. The problem in a small universe is that you will end up attacking the same planets...
If anything I'd rather put a limit on the number of incoming waves a small planet can get in a 24 tick period rather than forbidding all attacks.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 03:13   #7
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Friends can abuse this - get 10 people not in your alliance to hit you for a couple of ticks, etc...
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 08:46   #8
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Would the new bash limit count against actual sum of all scores in a galaxy, or only count against the 'counted' score for ranking purposes?
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 10:03   #9
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Re: Galaxy Setup

should stop people moaning who jump around alot,.. but what about the galaxy exciling,.. is that remaining the same???

On a side note, it might be in the interest of some galaxys then to keep around the "newbies" or relly low val/score planets, to get their bash limit to,.. (drop, raise???) change ,.. so that they have less to worry about from those above,.. these people wont be playing for their galaxy to win, but to be fair, half way into the round there tends to be a only a clear 3-6 galaxies who stand a shot at winning it anyway,.. so by letting the low planets stay in, u have less of a threat from those above you,.. you can focus on deffending each other, and not the low planets if their inactive.. and instead help your own/alliance/cluster(?) rank,

not saying this is a good or bad thing,.. just saying that it'll exisit
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 11:04   #10
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Re: Galaxy Setup

it would certainly be worth having a beta to try out.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 11:38   #11
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Thing is, in a top gal it gives a new person even less of a chance to be taken in. Say you have however many "hardcore" players. All bringing the gal score up they need to pick big targets etc and probably wont grow at all.

Also nice excuse for people who do dont ally raids..

"Yeah gals not in my bash"

How stupid.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 11:55   #12
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Would the new bash limit count against actual sum of all scores in a galaxy, or only count against the 'counted' score for ranking purposes?
If it were the 'counted' score then it'd make it more powerful - a 3 mil planet landing in a 5 mil gal would make a 10 mil difference on which galaxies could or couldn't hit it (ignoring the fact that they too have a counted score).

Perhaps counted score would lead to planets playing more for alliance exiling into smaller galaxies 'hiding', whilst being able to hit every other galaxy (especially if there's 2-3), and using the fact they have cheaper exiles to jump gal when it gets too big, vs galaxy(/cluster) galaxies that stay together?

This wouldn't be nearly so potent with normal score, so to go the whole hog and for consistency it'd make more sense to use 'counted' score.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 12:06   #13
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benneh
Thing is, in a top gal it gives a new person even less of a chance to be taken in. Say you have however many "hardcore" players. All bringing the gal score up they need to pick big targets etc and probably wont grow at all.

Also nice excuse for people who do dont ally raids..

"Yeah gals not in my bash"

How stupid.
This shouldn't be a huge problem. If it is, you might find galaxies doing what the top galaxy did last round, and being more a galaxy and less members of several alliances.

I need to check previous rankings, but if we're using counted score then it might hopefully make the galaxies slightly closer together - even if we're talking 10 mil, that's a difference.

However, checking out the wiki briefly, the top galaxies aren't that far away from 100 mil. That means they can hit anyone down to 30 mil, which I don't feel is unreasonable, as that's probably a fair amount of the universe. Indeed, a counter argument suggesting it's not enough might even be looked at.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 13:16   #14
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Re: Galaxy Setup

By reducing the target pool, you're increasing the amount of organization required to mount realistic attacks. Boring!
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 13:56   #15
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedlind
With both suggestions put together, I wouldn't mind paying a little extra if I was higher ranked, to actually exile into a smaller galaxy, and hence be protected against (not all, but some) incomings.
wouldn't they be safer if they were in a big galaxy where they could get ingal def?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedlind
just disabled for members of higher ranked galaxies.
I really like the idea, but what happens when a galaxy wants to disband? (as a few did last round)
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 14:08   #16
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
By reducing the target pool, you're increasing the amount of organization required to mount realistic attacks. Boring!
I know, and that introduces some amount of stagnation to the round, which is really silly when we're having a shorter round this round. Of course, this is ignoring the potential influence of reintroducing clusters.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 14:22   #17
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I know, and that introduces some amount of stagnation to the round, which is really silly when we're having a shorter round this round. Of course, this is ignoring the potential influence of reintroducing clusters.
It also raises the bar of participation in the game.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 14:26   #18
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Re: Galaxy Setup

I don't think it'll have a *huge* effect until late in the game, unless we pump the level up to 50% or so.

It'll only really hurt solo players in bigger galaxies until then (which would surely be good for alliances, as it means they'll benefit from attacking with alliances (/galaxies/clusters))
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 14:46   #19
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I don't think it'll have a *huge* effect until late in the game, unless we pump the level up to 50% or so.
I don't think it will have a huge effect at all, but I have no point of reference for saying that. If you'd like, I can provide you with most of the database dump information for rounds 16, 17 and 19 and you can run statistics on it to see how many players this would impact. But even in this case the actual impact would be invisible, since you can't see which of these players were attacking under their galaxy bash.

Perhaps you should have prepared for this idea before the round began and made a dumper to run statistics on how many attacks were launched and how many of these would have been illegal? Perhaps you could run one this round rather than implementing it without properly analyzing the consequences?

Quote:
It'll only really hurt solo players in bigger galaxies until then (which would surely be good for alliances, as it means they'll benefit from attacking with alliances (/galaxies/clusters))
Good for what alliances? This is the problem when you get all your alliance input from #alliances. The only people represented there are the high commanders of competitive alliances built around the old pre-PAX paramilitary model.

They want to play a meta-game in which they control people who play Planetarion like an advanced RTS game. If you think that forcing poeple to take part in alliances is 'good for alliances', then you have fallen for their vision of the game, in which individual quality is measured only in ability to conform to the rules of an alliance.

Modern alliances realize that the only 'good for alliance' is player ability to maximize the combined alliance tag score.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 15:10   #20
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Re: Galaxy Setup

I’m all for reducing the amount of bashing that goes on, I’ve been on the end of it myself from time to time, but setting a gal bash limit seams a little excessive.

If you want to reduce bashing (I don’t think you will ever stop it) why not deduct score (exp) from people who attack smaller targets, the opposite to gaining score (exp) for hitting large targets. This may make people think twice about targeting a smaller planet.

As for the self exile cost, I very much like that idea, it is to easy for people to just try and hop into a good galaxy at the moment, rather than stay in a average one and put some effort into making it a good one.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 15:23   #21
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Re: Galaxy Setup

I'm not sure if I missed this.

What's to stop a big planet exiling into a small galaxy, to use the small gal score for protection?

Certain allys are happy for no in-gal defence (including mine), either because they only rely on ally defence or because they do not need/want to be defended.

This would limit who could attack them.

I guess that because you couldn't guarantee where you exiled to, it would be a lottery - but at the beginning of the game you could probably assess pretty quickly if you are in a low activity galaxy or not and therefore exile costs would be low.

This could lead to a particularly agressive attacker being unable to be attacked by their victim allys because their big planets (in big galaxies) could not attack them and their lower score planets (in small galaxies) not being strong/organised enough to be able to attack them either.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 15:29   #22
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juice
If you want to reduce bashing (I don’t think you will ever stop it) why not deduct score (exp) from people who attack smaller targets, the opposite to gaining score (exp) for hitting large targets. This may make people think twice about targeting a smaller planet.
I support this 100%
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 17:37   #23
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juice
I’m all for reducing the amount of bashing that goes on, I’ve been on the end of it myself from time to time, but setting a gal bash limit seams a little excessive.
Oh right, because planets that are near the top on value don't have a hard enough time getting xp as it is, right?
Its just going to be penalising top planets, especially ones that are value based.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 17:42   #24
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juice
I’m all for reducing the amount of bashing that goes on, I’ve been on the end of it myself from time to time, but setting a gal bash limit seams a little excessive.
This has very little to do with bashing itself. Please read the thread

Quote:
If you want to reduce bashing (I don’t think you will ever stop it) why not deduct score (exp) from people who attack smaller targets, the opposite to gaining score (exp) for hitting large targets. This may make people think twice about targeting a smaller planet.
Only mentally. Depending on how it was implemented, it may actually give more of a bonus to value-based planets that bash, if you actually think about what this would mean for the rest of the xp. It'd also be possible, in theory, to have a negative score. That's just silly.

Quote:
As for the self exile cost, I very much like that idea, it is to easy for people to just try and hop into a good galaxy at the moment, rather than stay in a average one and put some effort into making it a good one.
Thank-you, that's my sentiment. If it's not possible to convince them it's true, then making it more difficult to do must be one of the only other options. Another would be to list the chance of landing in a bigger galaxy vs chance of landing in a smaller galaxy.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 17:45   #25
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thex
I'm not sure if I missed this.

What's to stop a big planet exiling into a small galaxy, to use the small gal score for protection?

Certain allys are happy for no in-gal defence (including mine), either because they only rely on ally defence or because they do not need/want to be defended.

This would limit who could attack them.

I guess that because you couldn't guarantee where you exiled to, it would be a lottery - but at the beginning of the game you could probably assess pretty quickly if you are in a low activity galaxy or not and therefore exile costs would be low.

This could lead to a particularly agressive attacker being unable to be attacked by their victim allys because their big planets (in big galaxies) could not attack them and their lower score planets (in small galaxies) not being strong/organised enough to be able to attack them either.
Yes. If this happened with a few alliances near the end of the round, we could actually see some of the final days of the top planets battling it out in some of the smallest galaxies in the universe, which would be mildly amusing.

It's a fair reason for not using the contributed / "ranking" score for a galaxy but to use the actual score instead, to make it harder for bigger planets to hide in smaller galaxies. It's hard to draw a line for exactly how much protecting you want to do.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 17:47   #26
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Oh right, because planets that are near the top on value don't have a hard enough time getting xp as it is, right?
Its just going to be penalising top planets, especially ones that are value based.
Yes, races like Zikonian are often value-heavy and so would naturally be penalised. Also, towards the end often planets in general have a hard time finding targets and so get bored, and so restricting targets even more could be pretty boring .
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 18:21   #27
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Thanks for pointing out the problems with negative exp, as you guys rightly say they could be some problems especially for the top planets and players that are focused on value rather than score.

All I would like to see is a method that stop's planets targeting smaller planets for easy roids rather than trying to hit equal size or larger ones.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 19:14   #28
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Re: Galaxy Setup

The galaxy bash limit I don't like. It's another example of: "This is how you should interact with the game, this is who you should attack". You may notice I used the word "interact" rather than play, that was purely intentional and is entirely the point I am making.

The exile changes I don't think would really make a lot of difference to anything, it's people in the smaller galaxies that exile most anyway trying to get into better galaxies, thus worsening the situation of the smaller galaxies and making more exile. It's a vicious circle and one that won't get resolved by making it harder to exile from the decent galaxies (the ones everyone wants to get into), it might even worsen the problem by making those in larger galaxies exile less those in smaller galaxies exile more, and therefore create fewer places and a much higher chance of ending back up in a crappy gal. Obviously these are only 'mights', but ultimately I don't see how it addresses the problem, it's what I'd call a 'New Labour' approach (see that there is a problem and try to block the effects rather than the causes). It would be better to concentrate on finding a solution that stops people wanting to exile through removing whatever push factors they are encountering.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 21:54   #29
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Re: Galaxy Setup

Oh, now exiling is actually being advertised and supported? I thought one of the biggest disadvantages of exiling was ending up in a shitty galaxy and getting wtfpwnd by everyone else, making it a little bit more of a hard decision to self-exile, or getting exiled.

Also your target market becomes ridiculously small(er) in a ridiculously small universe. Gal raids become more involved and complicated and the human interaction between alliance attacks and alliance members becomes clusterf*cked.

Might be a bad idea, I think.
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