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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:03   #1
Virall
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Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

This post is not meant as a whine, although it will probably come across as that. The aim of this post is to find out if I am in a minority with my heartfelt opinions on perhaps the strangest rule I've ever seen the pa team produce.

It may have taken a while to code, but it was announced that the alliance point scoring system would change dramatically. Basically, tagged members contribute the score they have obtained while in the alliance (and not their 'base' score- the score they had before they joined). That score then remains with the alliance even if they leave.

Upon questioning the pa team on this, they remarked that it would promote loyalty and pressure alliances to tag early. It is astounding then, that such a rule should be created with a concern for alliance loyalty; in my opinion that problem is the alliances and not an issue for the game mechanic to resolve.

My problem is a personal one. Im not ashamed to tell the community about it. I have created Escape, a new alliance with a memberbase not far below, but below 65 members. I was planning on tagging at the usual time and recruiting during the round. I do not feel the necessity to explain this; everyone that has ever started a decent alliance knows how hard it is to be selective about your memberbase. As we are fairly picky, we would need to recruit as the round progresses.

According to the rule, this creates obvious problems. I relate these problems to all new and/or mid ranked alliances. That is, not only are they an unnattractive prospect to sign up to (because if they dont have the member limit by tickstart, theyll lag behind in score) they are unable to benefit early on from growth score.

Justification from the pa team that such a rule is less harmful as early ticks are relitavley unimportant in terms of score is not good enough in my opinion. The long term affects for alliances without 65 members at tickstart could be catastrophic.

I don't know exactly what they are trying to prevent by this; it certainly isn't loyalty. Doing an Ascendancy or a 1up would be made harder, but in all fairness to them they played the game. Its not like the top allainces won't find a way to abuse this new rule...

What does everyone else think?
If i'm mistaken, or unjust in my opinions I apologise.
This has nothing to do with politics, but I am frustrated at the amount of effort that is put in by my command team at Escape (which is phenomnial) that is greeted by a rule like this. If new alliances are treated in this way, they will never be created. The side effects do not stop here, obviously.
Please discuss.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:11   #2
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

this rulle effectively screws any one trying to create a solid member base (new alliances, mid level alliances trying to improve ranking, credibility)

any new and mid level alliance with otherwise solid aspirations of challenging for a top 5 spot is now handcuffed from the start. Escape is the perfect example. a small but quality initial memberbase, with only a short time between round from deciding to create an alliance to tickstart, is screwed, as now because of the scoring rule, they have absolutely no chance of competing on a scale equal to that of the "top 5" alliance. They need to recruit throughout the round, in their first campaign, to build.

New alliances, or improving alliances mostly get quality members through show of performance, or word of mouth, because of good play. This basically says "well suck it up and live in the rank 10 and below area for this round and maybe you'll do better recruiting next time there is a round break".

The PA crew is not within their bounds making rules that promote alliance loyalty, as they really have no place dealing with alliance plans/politics/internal affairs. So if that is their actual reasoning, then they are WAY off base.

1up, and Ascendancy before them waited to tag, and it was a tactic that assisted them in their assault on the #1 spot. 1up however had planets that were obviously not in tag and it was evident to anyone who spent 10 minutes checking their arbiter which planets were 1up and not in tag, they could have attacked them and forced their hand, they chose not to, not the PA crews place to monitor and regulate this, they administer the game, not alliances, As they HAVE maintained a number of times in the past.

Nice job screwing anyone with the idea of creating a new alliance or improving their alliance during a round. New alliances, and smaller alliances improving their memberbase can only be good for PA... if it's the PA crews intention to cultivate that, this is WAY slamming the idea
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:28   #3
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

The only disadvantage from the new scoring system apparently is that you cannot keep planets out of tag without losing out on a significant amount of score, nothing wrong with that.

Yes the trade-off is that you cannot pull an ely any longer and recruit your way up the rankings, but it certainly does not affect the smaller / medium alliances as they will never experience a situation where they lose out on about 20 million score because they recruit a planet that big - let's be honest, they might lose out on a million or a half with recruiting new people but that's easily compensated with a decent growth.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:31   #4
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

I'm not quite sure if we've reached the point of lining up shoulder to shoulder and running head down at the opposition but we're certainly not a million miles away from it
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:33   #5
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

What about new alliances that have to recruit as the game goes on?

Im not talking about deliberatley recruiting to achieve a higher rank, im talking about reaping the benefits of increasing your memberbase.

you might not lose out on 20 million because youll never have a planet that big, but at tick xxx with 30 players for example, recruiting 20 players then means youll lose possibly more than 20 million because of the amount of growth score youve missed out on.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:37   #6
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
The only disadvantage from the new scoring system apparently is that you cannot keep planets out of tag without losing out on a significant amount of score, nothing wrong with that.

Yes the trade-off is that you cannot pull an ely any longer and recruit your way up the rankings, but it certainly does not affect the smaller / medium alliances as they will never experience a situation where they lose out on about 20 million score because they recruit a planet that big - let's be honest, they might lose out on a million or a half with recruiting new people but that's easily compensated with a decent growth.
For the first 2-3 weeks of the round your analysis may be correct, but we all know that people come and go in alliances through out the round, smaller alliances that are busting their hump to build, and need recruiting to do so are hosed with this scoring system. People may see these alliances as alternative, to their current situation they may not be happy in, and want to go where ppl are playing well and improving, or to be part of a new alliance, if they don't have a forum account, or read AD, they may never know about these alliances till they see in game performance or word of mouth effects their accessment of the new alliance. It's simply not the PA crews job to administer alliances, and creating code with that intention is time wasted where they could be improving the game interface, or putting some things together we been hearing about for 6 rounds.

If the code change is done with the intentions of forcing alliances to tag from the start, then it's off base, thats the responsability of the other alliances not the PA crew. People had every chance last round to look at their arbiter and select the 1up planets who were in tag, and who were not, and attack them. It wouldn't have been rocket science to figure it out. And they certainly wouldn't be dim enough to let it happen two rounds in a row....

If the PA crew is going to administer alliances from this point forward (as they have claimed time and time again they don't do) Then they need to do a better job thinking it through instead of making code changes that not even the other members of the PA crew knew about till the post went up on announcements
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:41   #7
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Drop the act guys, you arent bothered about how it effects mid level and new alliances because if you were you would actually see how it HELPS them.

The biggest problem that mid level alliances face is recruiting, they are forced to take chances on low level players. In the mean time your more appealing rivals are attracting people much bigger than yours and receiving a massive score boost for doing no work.

Then as the round goes on it gets worse, the player you have invested time in gets poached and you lose all the score of that member even though you have put effort into getting them that score. Your more appealing rival who did the poaching then suddenly get a reward for the work you have done.

This system puts all new recruits to an alliance on a level footing, you arent penlisied so much for taking risks on players and alliances dont have that same instant reward for poaching players. Its now a game about getting the most out of who you recruit and less about recruiting high scoring people. It may also force some lower ranked alliances whom are overly protective of their average score that they wont recruit below the average score to stop being such elitists and actually take a risk on 'lesser' players knowing their potential score gain for the alliance is the same as someone much larger
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:44   #8
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Drop the act guys, you arent bothered about how it effects mid level and new alliances because if you were you would actually see how it HELPS them.

The biggest problem that mid level alliances face is recruiting, they are forced to take chances on low level players. In the mean time your more appealing rivals are attracting people much bigger than yours and receiving a massive score boost for doing no work.

Then as the round goes on it gets worse, the player you have invested time in gets poached and you lose all the score of that member even though you have put effort into getting them that score. Your more appealing rival who did the poaching then suddenly get a reward for the work you have done.

This system puts all new recruits to an alliance on a level footing, you arent penlisied so much for taking risks on players and alliances dont have that same instant reward for poaching players. Its now a game about getting the most out of who you recruit and less about recruiting high scoring people. It may also force some lower ranked alliances whom are overly protective of their average score that they wont recruit below the average score to stop being such elitists and actually take a risk on 'lesser' players knowing their potential score gain for the alliance is the same as someone much larger
1. how the hell do you know what I'm "bothered by" Wakey?

2. How many members will be in the F-Crew tag at tick 1?

This isn't about member poaching, so don't try an make it about that. If you can't keep your members then that isn't the PA community's problem, it's yours. Some alliance chose not to recruit inactive or inexperienced players. It's their choice where they select their members from, as it's your choice where F-Crew gets it's members from. Regardless of F-Crews charter, it is NOT a new alliance. So the same circumstances DO NOT apply.

An alliance that starts, with a small but skilled playerbase, previously could actually shake up the rankings a bit with good performance. They would need to recruit throughout the round, build, attack effectively, and they could actually challenge for a top 5 spot. If a player leaves his/her respective alliance, for whatever reason, and choses to take a place in a new alliance, thats good for PA, it gets players involved with new alliances, nw command teams, and promotes interaction with new people. That's got to be good for PA.

If I'm unable to offer a player a solid home, as a member of my alliances HC, because of inadequate leadership, lack of activity in the command ranks, or any other reason, then they are perfectly within their right to go elsewhere should that be their choice. That's on me as that alliances Command. not up to the PA crew to monitor/administer.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:52   #9
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

I'll write a longer reply when I get back from work tonight.

But I dont like the new rule, newdawn dont like it and it have desroyter like 99% of our plans.

How can planets starting midround and doing good get an alliance spot?
Ofoucrse they maybe are good planets, but why shouldn't every alliance just recruit like **** before round and get 65 members ? that will gain them more.

I think they now have conentrated the game 150% around alliances wich I belived was never meant to happend.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:53   #10
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Drop the act guys, you arent bothered about how it effects mid level and new alliances because if you were you would actually see how it HELPS them.

The biggest problem that mid level alliances face is recruiting, they are forced to take chances on low level players. In the mean time your more appealing rivals are attracting people much bigger than yours and receiving a massive score boost for doing no work.

Then as the round goes on it gets worse, the player you have invested time in gets poached and you lose all the score of that member even though you have put effort into getting them that score. Your more appealing rival who did the poaching then suddenly get a reward for the work you have done.

This system puts all new recruits to an alliance on a level footing, you arent penlisied so much for taking risks on players and alliances dont have that same instant reward for poaching players. Its now a game about getting the most out of who you recruit and less about recruiting high scoring people. It may also force some lower ranked alliances whom are overly protective of their average score that they wont recruit below the average score to stop being such elitists and actually take a risk on 'lesser' players knowing their potential score gain for the alliance is the same as someone much larger


Poaching makes little difference - the score gained by your member (low level or not) while being in your alliance STAYS with your alliance even if he leaves, so you dont lose all the score at all.

This reply seems to be a bit bitter towards poaching. My concern IS with new alliances, because Ive created one. It is harmful to alliances that need to recruit as the round progresses.

Yes we should all take in players of a lesser standard in order to make them better, but this is about recruiting numbers.

If i recruit a 10 mill guy at tick XXX, and he is my 40th player, and, presuming I am recruiting him because I want him in my alliance to strengthen it and not to gain a higher place BECAUSE of his score, my alliance recieves not ONE point. His size effectivley doesn't matter ; just his value. My alliance onyl gains his score when he is in the tag. So yes, it prevents alliances from doing an ely, but it also prevents new alliances from extending their memberbase and gaining credibility and rank as an alliance (which is an obvious requirement to grow as an alliance in itself).
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:54   #11
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virall
What about new alliances that have to recruit as the game goes on?

Im not talking about deliberatley recruiting to achieve a higher rank, im talking about reaping the benefits of increasing your memberbase.

you might not lose out on 20 million because youll never have a planet that big, but at tick xxx with 30 players for example, recruiting 20 players then means youll lose possibly more than 20 million because of the amount of growth score youve missed out on.
New alliances probably shouldn't try going for #1 spot directly anyway if they do not have sufficient resources to do so. Instead they should go and build their bases to operate from the round after.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
For the first 2-3 weeks of the round your analysis may be correct, but we all know that people come and go in alliances through out the round, smaller alliances that are busting their hump to build, and need recruiting to do so are hosed with this scoring system. People may see these alliances as alternative, to their current situation they may not be happy in, and want to go where ppl are playing well and improving, or to be part of a new alliance, if they don't have a forum account, or read AD, they may never know about these alliances till they see in game performance or word of mouth effects their accessment of the new alliance. It's simply not the PA crews job to administer alliances, and creating code with that intention is time wasted where they could be improving the game interface, or putting some things together we been hearing about for 6 rounds.

If the code change is done with the intentions of forcing alliances to tag from the start, then it's off base, thats the responsability of the other alliances not the PA crew. People had every chance last round to look at their arbiter and select the 1up planets who were in tag, and who were not, and attack them. It wouldn't have been rocket science to figure it out. And they certainly wouldn't be dim enough to let it happen two rounds in a row....

If the PA crew is going to administer alliances from this point forward (as they have claimed time and time again they don't do) Then they need to do a better job thinking it through instead of making code changes that not even the other members of the PA crew knew about till the post went up on announcements
So even if members decide to switch, it's perfectly ok - it is just the score which they cannot transfer any longer. I fail to see what should be wrong with having a side-effect of disabling recruitment-up-the-rankings? After all the effect is in place for all alliances, just adapt to the new situation.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:55   #12
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spritfire
I'll write a longer reply when I get back from work tonight.

But I dont like the new rule, newdawn dont like it and it have desroyter like 99% of our plans.

How can planets starting midround and doing good get an alliance spot?
Ofoucrse they maybe are good planets, but why shouldn't every alliance just recruit like **** before round and get 65 members ? that will gain them more.

I think they now have conentrated the game 150% around alliances wich I belived was never meant to happend.
I hadn't even considered the effect of planets joining mid-round, good point.

If only it were that easy for every alliance to get 65 quality members at tickstart...
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:55   #13
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spritfire
I'll write a longer reply when I get back from work tonight.

But I dont like the new rule, newdawn dont like it and it have desroyter like 99% of our plans.

How can planets starting midround and doing good get an alliance spot?
Ofoucrse they maybe are good planets, but why shouldn't every alliance just recruit like **** before round and get 65 members ? that will gain them more.

I think they now have conentrated the game 150% around alliances wich I belived was never meant to happend.
"NewDawn wanted to pull an ascendancy!" - shocker.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:57   #14
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

It might help F-Crew, who have issues with poaching, but it sure as hell hurts the softcore alliances (VGN, xVx, etc) in the top 5-10, who spend most of the round recruiting where possible to find the right players. Alliances such as F-Crew, who start the round with a lot of members, will do better because they will receive those players' score right from the start. It appears that PA will be like old football management games, where you chose your side at the beginning and waited to see how it turned out.


I expect they'll abolish politics next. Hardcoding wars and NAPs should do that just fine.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:59   #15
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
New alliances probably shouldn't try going for #1 spot directly anyway if they do not have sufficient resources to do so. Instead they should go and build their bases to operate from the round after.
not for you to say, unless your the one creating that new alliance, and your charged with setting the goals for that alliances first round
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 16:59   #16
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
New alliances probably shouldn't try going for #1 spot directly anyway if they do not have sufficient resources to do so. Instead they should go and build their bases to operate from the round after.



So even if members decide to switch, it's perfectly ok - it is just the score which they cannot transfer any longer. I fail to see what should be wrong with having a side-effect of disabling recruitment-up-the-rankings? After all the effect is in place for all alliances, just adapt to the new situation.
New alliances have every right to go for #1 spot. eXilition did it, as did ascendancy. try telling them they shouldnt have bothered. what your saying is totally ridiculous. Yes they should 'build their bases,' but 99.9% of decent players want to win the round with their alliance. Good luck in recruiting members that want to spend a round 'building their bases' and not going for #1 spot. You'd NEVER have an alliance in the first place.

Yes, it prevents recruiting up the rankings, but to be honest, when was the last time this happened? 1up had members out of tag but they played the game, and the enemy didnt target the out of tag planets well enough.

I totally fail to see the basis of your argument.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:02   #17
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by Virall
New alliances have every right to go for #1 spot. eXilition did it, as did ascendancy. try telling them they shouldnt have bothered. what your saying is totally ridiculous. Yes they should 'build their bases,' but 99.9% of decent players want to win the round with their alliance. Good luck in recruiting members that want to spend a round 'building their bases' and not going for #1 spot. You'd NEVER have an alliance in the first place.

I totally fail to see the basis of your argument.
I'm not surprised considering you didn't read it completely. eXilition as well as Ascendancy had the resources.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:04   #18
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
I'm not surprised considering you didn't read it completely. eXilition as well as Ascendancy had the resources.
missed the point of this totally........

not all alliances have the playerbase that Asc/EXI/Omen did when they start. They start from scratch, build through recruiting, word of mouth, and performance. All three alliances mentioned above faught for #1 in their first round if you'll remember correctly.

whether the goal of a new alliance is to challenge for #1, or top 5, is realistic or not, it is certainly an honorable goal.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:05   #19
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by Heartless
I'm not surprised considering you didn't read it completely. eXilition as well as Ascendancy had the resources.
So, on your argument, I should declare my alliance as not having the resources therefore not aiming as high as we possibly can. Did you not recruit decent players after tickstart? Did you and eXilition keep your memberbase the same from start to finish? If the answer is no, you've floored your own argument. If the answer is yes, you were very lucky to have those resources and you should thank your lucky stars that you aren't in the situation of other alliances around you. New alliances should ALWAYS go for the highest rank possible.

By this i sdont mean politically strike the #1 spot or #2 spot if your lying in 10th, as it probably won't do any good. But pre round, on your first round, aspirations are MORE THAN ACCEPTABLE.


Fact.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:07   #20
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by Virall

Yes, it prevents recruiting up the rankings, but to be honest, when was the last time this happened? 1up had members out of tag but they played the game, and the enemy didnt target the out of tag planets well enough.
Sorry, missed that one during c/p what I wanted to quote. Precisely spoken 1up and Ascendancy both recruited to #1. An alliance member is after all defined by whether it is added ingame or not, according to the game mechanics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
missed the point of this totally........

not all alliances have the playerbase that Asc/EXI/Omen did when they start. They start from scratch, build through recruiting, word of mouth, and performance.
Yes, and exactly those most likely are not disadvantaged by the new system. Every alliance which recruits a lot will suffer from the same effects. Thus it does not disadvantage anyone, really.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:09   #21
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by Virall
New alliances should ALWAYS go for the highest rank possible.

Fact.
Indeed, apparently the new game mechanics do not allow you a number one spot the easy way. But hey, what's a game without a challenge?

Off to the pub drinking.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:10   #22
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
1. how the hell do you know what I'm "bothered by" Wakey?

2. How many members will be in the F-Crew tag at tick 1?

This isn't about member poaching, so don't try an make it about that. If you can't keep your members then that isn't the PA community's problem, it's yours. Some alliance chose not to recruit inactive or inexperienced players. It's their choice where they select their members from, as it's your choice where F-Crew gets it's members from. Regardless of F-Crews charter, it is NOT a new alliance. So the same circumstances DO NOT apply.

An alliance that starts, with a small but skilled playerbase, previously could actually shake up the rankings a bit with good performance. They would need to recruit throughout the round, build, attack effectively, and they could actually challenge for a top 5 spot. If a player leaves his/her respective alliance, for whatever reason, and choses to take a place in a new alliance, thats good for PA, it gets players involved with new alliances, nw command teams, and promotes interaction with new people. That's got to be good for PA.

If I'm unable to offer a player a solid home, as a member of my alliances HC, because of inadequate leadership, lack of activity in the command ranks, or any other reason, then they are perfectly within their right to go elsewhere should that be their choice. That's on me as that alliances Command. not up to the PA crew to monitor/administer.
As I am ill today I will keep this short and may reply more fully later. This is about poaching and exactly everything Wakey said. I know because I came up with this system and have been campagning for it all last round. This harms your alliance, 1up and others like them yes, however you discussed that it was not the role of PAteam to force an end to poaching and other issues that this fixes, but we have been asking you hardcore ally ppl to sort it for rounds and you have continued.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:11   #23
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virall
So yes, it prevents alliances from doing an ely, but it also prevents new alliances from extending their memberbase and gaining credibility and rank as an alliance (which is an obvious requirement to grow as an alliance in itself).
I'll respond more later to this and aNgRyDuCk's comment as i'm about to head off home from work but I have to ask you

"Why should your alliance gain credibility through recruiting and why should where ever the person came from lose credability even through its their work thats helped gain the score your after"

Credability should be something an alliance earns, not something they 'purchase'
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:12   #24
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

1up and ascendancies victories were planned - it isnt the same as doing an ely. You cant do an ascendancy without the xp being easy to manipulate, and you cant benefit from 1up's tactics again even without this rule. 1up were allowed to do it by the opposition; theyll be the first to tell you this.

Anyway, congratualtions on going totally off the point. How can you say it doesnt disadvantage anyone that has FEWER resources than the obvious alliances? Surely recruiting mid round is an essential part of building a new memberbase if your memberbase isnt up to the limit at tickstart...
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:12   #25
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Yes, and exactly those most likely are not disadvantaged by the new system. Every alliance which recruits a lot will suffer from the same effects. Thus it does not disadvantage anyone, really.
it's a disadvantage to the new or mid level alliance that use mid round recruiting to build their player base, which is the original point of this thread
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:14   #26
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
As I am ill today I will keep this short and may reply more fully later. This is about poaching and exactly everything Wakey said. I know because I came up with this system and have been campagning for it all last round. This harms your alliance, 1up and others like them yes, however you discussed that it was not the role of PAteam to force an end to poaching and other issues that this fixes, but we have been asking you hardcore ally ppl to sort it for rounds and you have continued.
Hardly Cm, its an idea that was being floated around suggestions since r10 Your push for it just came at the right time that there was a 'hardcore' alliance issue which the idea also aided so rather than being swept under the carpet like it had been every other round it got some support
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:18   #27
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
I'll respond more later to this and aNgRyDuCk's comment as i'm about to head off home from work but I have to ask you

"Why should your alliance gain credibility through recruiting and why should where ever the person came from lose credability even through its their work thats helped gain the score your after"

Credability should be something an alliance earns, not something they 'purchase'
youve totally misunderstood what im saying.

/me sighs

You earn credibility yes, but to be recognised as a 'great' alliance there is a certain amount of recruiting you need to do on the way. Im not talking about poaching, and if this is the reason for the rule, it surprises me that a training alliance should be responsible, especially when theyve campaigned for new alliances before.

You seem to be paranoid about people poaching your players. Perhaps if you changed your public appearance as an alliance that churns new players out to other decent alliances it might help wit hthe poaching problem. Either that or make your alliance more attractive to make them stay. Either way, this is not a problem that should be resolved by the game mechanics at all. Its your alliance, youre the leader therefore you should sort it out.

Campaigning for a change that eradicates mid round recruiting benefits for new and up and coming alliances, not to mention the mid-round planets that get created and the problems that that ensues, can't aid anyone other than yourselves, who have a problem with poachers.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:22   #28
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Hardly Cm, its an idea that was being floated around suggestions since r10 Your push for it just came at the right time that there was a 'hardcore' alliance issue which the idea also aided so rather than being swept under the carpet like it had been every other round it got some support
Darn. There was me trying to take some credit I hadn't heard of it before
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:23   #29
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
As I am ill today I will keep this short and may reply more fully later. This is about poaching and exactly everything Wakey said. I know because I came up with this system and have been campagning for it all last round. This harms your alliance, 1up and others like them yes, however you discussed that it was not the role of PAteam to force an end to poaching and other issues that this fixes, but we have been asking you hardcore ally ppl to sort it for rounds and you have continued.
Poaching is your command team's problem, work harder to keep your members....... not my problem, as our HC is able to keep members (however WE DO INFACT LOSE PPL EVERY ROUND, and we don't whine about it... As a matter of fact we lost a few to Virall's new alliance, other than slapping him with some kind of Fish on IRC, we got over it, we'll miss the players, true, but it's a game, and it's up to them at the end of the day)

Guess I'm not shocked that a member of F Crew cooked up this loaf

This isn't about Poaching, the thread wasn't started with that in mind, and as much as you try to sell it that way, it just ain't so....... The code change is a response to the round 16 Ascendancy win, and the round 17 1up win.

If I am mistaken, and it is in fact response to deal with "poaching" then the PA crew is still off base, as "PA crew doesn't administer alliances" I can't count how many times I've heard that from a member of the PA crew
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:25   #30
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
Darn. There was me trying to take some credit I hadn't heard of it before

credit for what?

Is there anyone else out there that thinks this doesnt harm new alliances?
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:31   #31
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
Poaching is your command team's problem, work harder to keep your members....... not my problem, as our HC is able to keep members (however WE DO INFACT LOSE PPL EVERY ROUND, and we don't whine about it... As a matter of fact we lost a few to Virall's new alliance, other than slapping him with some kind of Fish on IRC, we got over it, we'll miss the players, true, but it's a game, and it's up to them at the end of the day)
/me reads from the standard script that has been said before. You must know all the replies to this by now. Most have already appeared in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
Guess I'm not shocked that a member of F Crew cooked up this loaf
And I am not shocked that a 1up member is against it. Remind me. When was the last time you guys actually supported something that didn't directly help you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
This isn't about Poaching, the thread wasn't started with that in mind, and as much as you try to sell it that way, it just ain't so....... The code change is a response to the round 16 Ascendancy win, and the round 17 1up win.
/me gives you the credit then. Well done.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:35   #32
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
And I am not shocked that a 1up member is against it. Remind me. When was the last time you guys actually supported something that didn't directly help you?
This rule doesn't effect 1up one way or the other, as we have a strong member base to begin with, unlike a new alliance


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
And I am not shocked that a 1up member is against it. Remind me. When was the last time you guys actually supported something that didn't directly help you?
This isn't about me being a member of 1up. My opinion is about me being a player in this community for 17 rounds. It's about helping new alliances get off to a good start and having the ability to build.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Wakey (which he didn't answer by the way)

how many members will be in the F-Crew in game tag at PT 1?
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:36   #33
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Please keep posts on topic. This was never supposed to turn into an f-crew missionary post. Stop the flames.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:37   #34
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

I don't play or post anymore, but this seems like a good idea to me.

And seeing as growth is exponential (more successful to be value based now right?), those joining mid round can still contribute a lot to final score.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:39   #35
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
As I am ill today I will keep this short and may reply more fully later. This is about poaching and exactly everything Wakey said. I know because I came up with this system and have been campagning for it all last round. This harms your alliance, 1up and others like them yes, however you discussed that it was not the role of PAteam to force an end to poaching and other issues that this fixes, but we have been asking you hardcore ally ppl to sort it for rounds and you have continued.
This "poaching" thing is bs. It is not PA team's problem that you can't keep members. It is 100% your command team's problem. Forced loyalty is not real loyalty at all.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:40   #36
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by The_Fish
I don't play or post anymore, but this seems like a good idea to me.

And seeing as growth is exponential (more successful to be value based now right?), those joining mid round can still contribute a lot to final score.
Why does it seem like a good idea?

Does it benefit new alliances?
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:48   #37
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

The fact is for the past 2 rounds large of players were upset how the rankings never reflected reality as both winners, 1up and Ascendancy, kept large amount of players out of tag.

While I am quite fond of this tactic, there's a clear logical reason behind what they've done to prevent it. Those who claim it is to do with poaching are not looking at the reason. It's to make the alliance rankings actually worth something before the last few hundred ticks after someone tags up.

And as Sid mentioned in another thread - if a player leaves, you should lose his score to prevent them from untagging, spending, retagging then producing ships to give their alliance an unwarranted extra gain.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:50   #38
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by Virall
Why does it seem like a good idea?

Does it benefit new alliances?
Whilst it isnt without its faults, i believe it is a fair system to all involved.

I don't see why it has to benefit new alliances. And new alliances shouldnt be too worried about score in their first round.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:53   #39
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by The_Fish
I don't see why it has to benefit new alliances. And new alliances shouldnt be too worried about score in their first round.
As I said to Heartless... that ain't up to you, unless you are the one who created the new alliance, then you get to chose your goals
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:53   #40
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by lokken
The fact is for the past 2 rounds large of players were upset how the rankings never reflected reality as both winners, 1up and Ascendancy, kept large amount of players out of tag.

While I am quite fond of this tactic, there's a clear logical reason behind what they've done to prevent it. Those who claim it is to do with poaching are not looking at the reason. It's to make the alliance rankings actually worth something before the last few hundred ticks after someone tags up.

And as Sid mentioned in another thread - if a player leaves, you should lose his score to prevent them from untagging, spending, retagging then producing ships to give their alliance an unwarranted extra gain.

The rankings reflected the coding.

BEsides, the score that the player gains whilst in your alliance remains with the alliance even if he leaves, so this idea does not support Sid's idea, despite him being right. I agree, if a player leaves you should lose his score.


But the original idea of the thread is how this affects an alliance with less than 65 players at tickstart.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 17:54   #41
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
Whilst it isnt without its faults, i believe it is a fair system to all involved.

I don't see why it has to benefit new alliances. And new alliances shouldnt be too worried about score in their first round.

Why is it fair fs?

It doesn't have to benefit new alliances, it just shouldnt hinder them.

Why shouldnt new alliances be concerned with score?
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 18:11   #42
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

It also effectively gets rid of the Average score, being more of a "how much the average person contributes to the alliance".

I think it should be left as it was tbh, it was a tactic to play out of tag that had negatives and positivies. Its happened twice in two rounds, an out of tag alliance are highly unlikely to go unnoticed and win again.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 18:28   #43
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

A few thoughts - an alliance does still benefit from recruting during the round - the effect is just reduced.

Most recruting of new players happens in the early parts of the round after the shuffle etc when galaxies get to know each other - so the issues are minimised.

An interesting effect might be that at the end of the game its worth kicking the big planets in order to take in planets that can grow more rappidly.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 18:34   #44
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

which in itself is bs. Replacing one bit of abusing rules for another

It just doesnt encourage the creation of new alliances.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 18:52   #45
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
2. How many members will be in the F-Crew tag at tick 1?
uhm*.. Tagging on PT 72 instead of PT 1 wouldn't matter the slighest on your end of round rank. The score-gain from PT 1 to PT 72 is far from significant to the end of round score.


*I assume that's what you meant.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 18:58   #46
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by Nadar
uhm*.. Tagging on PT 72 instead of PT 1 wouldn't matter the slighest on your end of round rank. The score-gain from PT 1 to PT 72 is far from significant to the end of round score.


*I assume that's what you meant.
1-72, right, I mean "how many players are theystarting round 18 with in tag"
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 19:04   #47
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

ah, I misunderstood (as suspected) then Anyway, I think the new scoring system is good for the less skilled alliances, despite they won't get much score from recruits. It's worse for them to loose the score they've gained from a planet they've worked hard on during the round, both morally and rank-wise. IMO.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 19:11   #48
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by Nadar
ah, I misunderstood (as suspected) then Anyway, I think the new scoring system is good for the less skilled alliances, despite they won't get much score from recruits. It's worse for them to loose the score they've gained from a planet they've worked hard on during the round, both morally and rank-wise. IMO.
But yet no one has had the guts to stick their hand up and say, 'If I were in a new alliance, this would suck the big one.'

Every alliance loses and gains members during the round. If you lose a member, once again, its the fault of your command or alliance. It shouldnt have to be prevented by a dramatic alliance score change.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 19:12   #49
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
1-72, right, I mean "how many players are theystarting round 18 with in tag"
And you want to know this to prove what?
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 19:15   #50
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
ah, I misunderstood (as suspected) then Anyway, I think the new scoring system is good for the less skilled alliances, despite they won't get much score from recruits. It's worse for them to loose the score they've gained from a planet they've worked hard on during the round, both morally and rank-wise. IMO.
It depends. The softcore alliances (xVx, Vengeance, ToF) don't really suffer from poaching, it's alliances such as F-Crew who make the most noise about it. You usually find that the hardcore alliances are already at their limit by mid-round when the good players are pulling away from the rest.

What it's not uncommon for the softcore alliances to do is to start the round 10-15 members under the limit, and then recruit good players as the round goes on via galaxy contacts and the alliance's own impressive performance. Certainly Vengeance (my old alliance) attracted people in this way while I was HC. These alliances won't be able to do that any longer.
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