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Unread 16 Dec 2005, 18:53   #1
Kal
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Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

In the intial planning stages for PAN we had cluster alliances etc - but theese tend to favour the active and organised, so for now clusters have in essence been scrapped and replaced with the near and far universe - this effectivly slows the game down a little and makes alliance-level tactics more complex.

If anyone can think of a good way to reintroduce cluster alliances and cluster eta bonuses please shout very loudly as we'd love to hear them.

This thread is basically a summary of the galaxy, cluster and alliance functionality, please reply to it constructivly.

Main Game left hand Menu

- My Galaxy
- My Alliance

Galaxy Sub Menu

- Home – pretty much the current politics page but with some stuff e.g. fund stuff moved off to gal fund page
- Forums – a place to discuss, with access dependant threads etc
- Attacks – MoW can set up attacks
- Messages – galaxies can send and receive pamails
- Galaxy Fund – MoD can monitor everything about the fund – what goes in and out, what scans the mow does etc. I think we should also have opt in taxes

Ministers:

GC:
- Can start exile votes
- Can change gal name and banner - banner changes must be admin approved before they are displayed
- Can use messages page
- Can read ministers only threads on forums
- Can select ministers

MoC:
- Controls the forums
- Can vote for exiles
- Can change gal name and banner
- Can use messages page
- Can read ministers only threads on forums

MoW:
- Can set up attacks on attack page
- Can perform “friendly” espionage on galaxy without restrictions (old scans)
- Any espionage performed on the galaxy is charge to the galaxy fund
- Can vote on exiles
- Can read ministers only threads on forums

MoD:
- Can access the galaxy fund page - set trading, set taxes, view fund histories, view use of fund for scans by MoW (max fund size 25 mil of each res)
- Can vote on exiles
- Can read ministers only threads on forums

Defence:

In Galaxy defence fleets have a fixed eta of 5

Alliance sub menus

- Home – similar to current page – allows leaving/joining of alliances
- Forums – enhanced forums – same as enhanced gal forums
- Defence – enhanced defence system
- Attacks – enhanced attack system lin
- Arbiter – members can check if they can attack targets
- Messages – mail system allowing alliances to send and receive pamails
- Members – allows member status’s to be changed
- Applicants – info on people applying to the alliance
- Alliance Fund – Alliance Fund management page
- Politics – Allows war, merge and peace stuff
- Intel – shows intel gathered

Access Levels:

Access levels are fully flexible and are controlled from the members page

Defence:

Alliances get a -1 defence bonus so its possible to defend against attacks.

Using the notation that current universe etas are eta 0
Nearby clusters (n-x.... n-2, n- 1, n, n+1, n+2...n+x) are eta 0 - where x=number of clusters/4
Far clusters are eta +1

Note nearby clusters do wrap around the edge of the universe.
Note there is currently no specific in clujster eta bonus

See FAS for full information on Alliances
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Last edited by Kal; 17 Dec 2005 at 10:06.
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Unread 16 Dec 2005, 22:18   #2
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Can change gal name and banner - banner changes must be admin approved before they are displayed
I got a bot stopper question, an eula change and now a new feature.

yay :xmas:
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Unread 17 Dec 2005, 00:37   #3
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Why not drop nearby clusters and have the same eta wherever you send your ships outside the gal. Unless ofcause you wanna check out how it works. I personally think nearby cluster eta stuff would make it even harder for new players to get used to the game.

And wouldn't the nearby cluster system still be able to favour the organized allainces. I think it could be for the worse, if some good alliances focused on getting members from a near clusters. Let's say by getting a good start by having alot of members in c4-5 and maybe 8-9 and then start exiling around in the uni when there's not much roids left between that. It could also make attacking such allies hard. Atleast it seems like some allies are always good at finding some ways to abuse a new system.

Tbh, it seems kinda interested in trying it out, but hate the way that it seems to be able to slow the game down.
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Unread 17 Dec 2005, 00:58   #4
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Well this change will certianly make attacking more difficult, and defending easier, if in a limited way. Your essentially saying that half the universe will be as close as it is currently, and the other half will be eta +1. This puts half of the uni outside of your normal attack range, and will force people to figure out if an attacker is within half the universe of them. If this will be implimented please include a tool to easily calculate if particular coords are within half the uni of another particular set of coords.
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Unread 17 Dec 2005, 00:58   #5
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I
- Intel – shows intel gathered automatically via tags being revealed through combat and additional intel may be added
is it possible to add a feature that automatically updates the alliance of people on jgps?
ie. I attack a 1up player, he gets def and I see it on jgp, can these co-ords be added to intel as 1up? or will it take a lot of coding?
Also, a page for scans on the alliance thing would be useful. ie, in the morning the scanners jgp the targets from the previous night's raids and put the scans up somewhere and the players just go there to get them, saves a lot of hassle and can stop people from getting scans on the same target twice as the scan would already be in the database.

Also, about scans, right now, you can perform the same scan on the same planet twice in the same tick and you are charged twice, would it be possible for there to be a little message saying "you have scanned this target already" or something and the old scan to come up?
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Unread 17 Dec 2005, 01:35   #6
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Kila's idea seems good. And to extend it a little, could it be possible to make your scans viewable to ppl with a certain access level in alliance? Kinda like you can make news public today, but make it possible it viewable for someone in your alliance instead?
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Unread 17 Dec 2005, 01:37   #7
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

For scans: make a scan which does planet / unit / tech -whatever in ONE operation.

Will save alot of time for the scanners when scanning for targets, and in general be ace?! - should ofc cost more.
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Unread 17 Dec 2005, 01:41   #8
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

And prelaunched scans for your alliance aswell
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Unread 19 Dec 2005, 10:51   #9
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

what is the purpose of near/far clusters?
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Unread 19 Dec 2005, 20:56   #10
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
what is the purpose of near/far clusters?

basically we have removed the cluster bonus (it may return), but we want something to make tactics more complex and this is a fairly simple way to do it. Also its worth noting that this has the effective of slowing the game down a little which should be good for the players who need more sleep.
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Unread 19 Dec 2005, 21:58   #11
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Main Game left hand Menu

- My Galaxy
- My Alliance
That is FAR too Microsoft Windowsy
Quote:
Can change gal name and banner - banner changes must be admin approved before they are displayed
This relies on very active admins. GC's like to alter banners in response to politics/incomming etc. What would happen if a whole alliance decided to 'banner up'. I think this is a case of too much red tape in order to stop a very small number of very minor problems.

Rest of it is much of a muchness.
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Unread 19 Dec 2005, 22:48   #12
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
basically we have removed the cluster bonus (it may return), but we want something to make tactics more complex and this is a fairly simple way to do it. Also its worth noting that this has the effective of slowing the game down a little which should be good for the players who need more sleep.
won't this have the effect of splitting the game in two, from each planets view and therefore effectivly making the universe half the size at a time when you're desperate to make it larger?
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 00:47   #13
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
That is FAR too Microsoft Windowsy


This relies on very active admins. GC's like to alter banners in response to politics/incomming etc. What would happen if a whole alliance decided to 'banner up'. I think this is a case of too much red tape in order to stop a very small number of very minor problems.

Rest of it is much of a muchness.
Everyone from MH to Kloopy should be able to approve these.

If they are told when they login to the 'admin panel' to approve something, it'll be just a few hours surely?
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 00:48   #14
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyne
Everyone from MH to Kloopy should be able to approve these.

If they are told when they login to the 'admin panel' to approve something, it'll be just a few hours surely?
I don't forsee a major issue with approval times - other than immeidatly after the shuffle I don;t forsee the pending list getting that long.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 10:29   #15
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

2 thoughts occour (wow, be impressed!)

firstly, by requiring that an admin check banners before they're put up i'd be surprised if you're not then taking at least partial legal responsibility for the banner, should it turn out to infringe copyright or something. have you thought about this?

secondly, if the admins are checking banners etc, is this an opertunity tohave gal banners hosted on the pa servers - i'm sure you're aware of the mildly dubious exploits that people get up to with them. also, if you're hosting them then it means that people can get banners approved early, and then swap back and forth between them without having to bother the admins again, cutting down or even eliminating the waiting time that people seem to be worried about (obviously, you couldn't do this using vetting ofurls, as people could change the actual files, tho i guess you could md5 the file to check it or something)
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 11:31   #16
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
2 thoughts occour (wow, be impressed!)

firstly, by requiring that an admin check banners before they're put up i'd be surprised if you're not then taking at least partial legal responsibility for the banner, should it turn out to infringe copyright or something. have you thought about this?

secondly, if the admins are checking banners etc, is this an opertunity tohave gal banners hosted on the pa servers - i'm sure you're aware of the mildly dubious exploits that people get up to with them. also, if you're hosting them then it means that people can get banners approved early, and then swap back and forth between them without having to bother the admins again, cutting down or even eliminating the waiting time that people seem to be worried about (obviously, you couldn't do this using vetting ofurls, as people could change the actual files, tho i guess you could md5 the file to check it or something)
first point is veyr good - i think i'll go with inseatd a system that flags upto admins when a banner has changes - rather instead of forcing the approval of each banner.

on the subject of banners - what size should a banner be in pixels?


on your 2nd point, hosting again would give us more elgal responsbiility, so i think we will have to say no to that for now.
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 11:37   #17
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
first point is veyr good - i think i'll go with inseatd a system that flags upto admins when a banner has changes - rather instead of forcing the approval of each banner.
what would the point of this flag be, other than to make sure admins check it. it seems that you'd be leaving a paper trail which would leave you just as culpable as your other plan. i'd be wanting to talk to jolt's legal team (lol - they ok'd the ndas, right?) about whether some sort of disclaimer could be drawn up, saying that it's the responsibility of the uploader to check copyrights, and that they agree not to upload copyrighted works.

Quote:
on your 2nd point, hosting again would give us more elgal responsbiility, so i think we will have to say no to that for now.
you're hosting these forums... i'm not a legal expert, but i'd have thought that a "content isn't ours, if you have problems with anything on our servers talk to us" type disclaimer would be as valid for pictures as it would for forum content?
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 11:40   #18
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

the euls forbids people from uploading illegal content - the issue with a formal approval system is that we might approve thigns that violate the eula withotu realising e.g. a piece of copyrighted work

there is also a bandwidth issue with uploading banners etc.
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 11:42   #19
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal

- Can change gal name and banner - banner changes must be admin approved before they are displayed
OMG, PA is using my idea!!!
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 11:43   #20
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
OMG, PA is using my idea!!!
though if you read the last 3 posts you;d find I'm backing down on it
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 11:45   #21
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

lol. but its a good idea. That way we will avoid the problems with "shady" gal pics. And as you said, there shouldnt be a big line of pending galpictures cept after the shuffle
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 11:50   #22
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

I've sent an email off to the legal people to find out what we can and cannot do
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 12:09   #23
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
the euls forbids people from uploading illegal content - the issue with a formal approval system is that we might approve thigns that violate the eula withotu realising e.g. a piece of copyrighted work

there is also a bandwidth issue with uploading banners etc.
one could argue that you approve everything on the forum, as you're reading it and taking no action to remove it. again, i'd talk to a lawyer rather than making assumptions.

how much bandwidth does pa use a month?
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 12:11   #24
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

we do take action to remove content that breaks the forums rules though don't we.

i've no idea about bandwidth i'm afraid, Kloopy could probably find out though
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 12:13   #25
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
we do take action to remove content that breaks the forums rules though don't we.
and thus, if someone were to slander someone else and you didn't notice, you would in effect have approved it. this seems suspiciously exactly the same as the banner problem

Quote:
i've no idea about bandwidth i'm afraid, Kloopy could probably find out though
it would seem a relevant figure, if you're going to not host banners based on its increase.
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 12:15   #26
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
and thus, if someone were to slander someone else and you didn't notice, you would in effect have approved it. this seems suspiciously exactly the same as the banner problem

but we do have a report this post button - we don;t have a report this banner button - maybe thats what we infact need for banners?
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 12:18   #27
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
but we do have a report this post button - we don;t have a report this banner button - maybe thats what we infact need for banners?
would seem like a reasonable thing to do. although it would probably need to be an 'out of game' option, so that someone who's not playing could report a breach of their copyright. for practicality's sake, i'd have a report button in game, and a contact thingy on the front site that's reasonably obivous for anyone who's not playing.
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 12:22   #28
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

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Originally Posted by mist
would seem like a reasonable thing to do. although it would probably need to be an 'out of game' option, so that someone who's not playing could report a breach of their copyright. for practicality's sake, i'd have a report button in game, and a contact thingy on the front site that's reasonably obivous for anyone who's not playing.
so we need a publically viewable gallery of galaxy banners then?
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 12:26   #29
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

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Originally Posted by Kal
so we need a publically viewable gallery of galaxy banners then?
i wouldn't say so. however, if the boss of coca cola's son starts playing the game, and father notices a bastardised coke advert as a gal banner, you can bet he's going to want to have a word, so i'd have a mechanism where he can talk to you without breaking the eula (which i believe his interaction with his son's account would be?)

not a particularly likely scenario, but i'd imagine you can see where i'm comming from.
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 12:29   #30
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

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Originally Posted by mist
i wouldn't say so. however, if the boss of coca cola's son starts playing the game, and father notices a bastardised coke advert as a gal banner, you can bet he's going to want to have a word, so i'd have a mechanism where he can talk to you without breaking the eula (which i believe his interaction with his son's account would be?)

not a particularly likely scenario, but i'd imagine you can see where i'm comming from.
well the support system is accessible without an account - and we have contact us system on the portal - isn't that enough? it has been for people who have reported copyright breaches in the past.
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 12:43   #31
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
well the support system is accessible without an account - and we have contact us system on the portal - isn't that enough? it has been for people who have reported copyright breaches in the past.
probably so. i tend to ignore the pa portal.
as an added thought, you could add (tastefully) 'www.planetarion.com' to all the gal pics you're serving, so that if anyone does want to look at them externally they'll see where they're from. and a bit of advertising never hurt
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 13:21   #32
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

give the clusters a purpose or remove the concept and illegal galpics who draw the line on whats legal?

i have seen pics of chicks in a bra removed (biffy's powertrip not to mention), well the admins aproval of pics before uploading is an ok solution of the issue i guess
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 13:59   #33
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

I dont think allowing members to have an arbitor is a good idea. Would allow spies to gather an entire alliance coord list. Maybe restrict the access level to that.
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 17:55   #34
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

biffy wants admin approved and pa host gal banners - so thats what we will have
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 18:02   #35
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

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Originally Posted by Kal
biffy wants admin approved and pa host gal banners - so thats what we will have
either he got an awful quick reply from the legal bods, or is incredibly brave*.

*well all know another word for brave, right?
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 18:29   #36
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

can all mhs have admin then?
so it wont take forever to get it aproved?
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 18:36   #37
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

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Originally Posted by mist
either he got an awful quick reply from the legal bods, or is incredibly brave*.

*well all know another word for brave, right?
apparently in the case of copyrighted content its only an issue when its being used for commerical gain anyway.

the approve and host method means we can easily enforce our own rules and prevents people using evil scripts etc.
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 19:04   #38
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

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Originally Posted by Kal
apparently in the case of copyrighted content its only an issue when its being used for commerical gain anyway.
so why the copyright notice next to all the photocopiers at uni? *shrugs*

anyway, it IS being used for comercial gain!
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 19:08   #39
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
so why the copyright notice next to all the photocopiers at uni? *shrugs*

anyway, it IS being used for comercial gain!
no its not - we gain nothing from having galaxy banners - people would not suddenly stop playing if we didn't have them.

the resaon for the photocopiers is that u are loosing the company who made the thing you are copying income as u r not buying it.
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 19:12   #40
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

jolt is willing to pay to host the banners. jolt don't strike me as particularly charitable. ergo, if they're hosting them they think it'll make them money.
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 21:26   #41
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Jolt have to host the banners. Otherwise its harder to verify that an image at a url is not changed.
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 21:31   #42
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyne
Jolt have to host the banners. Otherwise its harder to verify that an image at a url is not changed.
bingo
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 21:33   #43
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

total control costs bandwith but they got enough already i guess
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 23:30   #44
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyne
Jolt have to host the banners. Otherwise its harder to verify that an image at a url is not changed.
finding two pictures with a matching md5, while not impossible, isn't particualrly trivial either. imo, they need to stop people hosting their own so that dubious logging techiniques are impossible, rather to ensure consistancy of the picture.
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Unread 22 Dec 2005, 23:59   #45
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

MoW
- Can perform “friendly” espionage on galaxy without restrictions (old scans)
- Any espionage performed on the galaxy is charge to the galaxy fund
MoD:
- Can access the galaxy fund page - set trading, set taxes, view fund histories, view use of fund for scans by MoW (max fund size 25 mil of each res)

Are you kidding me? You introduced the New rule to stop support planets and now your letting MOWs use a fund of resources for scans? in what way will this stop the resources been used by alliance scanners?
Ive been in this since round 1, and i have never in any round seen a galaxy attack together. this is just another feature that can be abused by the top alliances for their own purpose

And the ETA thing? are you trying to kill this game? with a smaller universe ( which is exactly what you will be creating 2 their of).. it will simply be utterly boring you will restrict the amount of targets one can hit, you will restrict alliance attacks, you will restrict new players learning the game quicker. fact is fi/co eta 8? fr/de eta 9? cr and bs eta 10? how couldnt you get defense for that. christ u could build defense in that time.

this game doesnt need any of these new ideas it needs marketing and some damn damn good support for new players, the alliances dont need to be penalised for been better and more active and the new people certainly dont either. have any of you idea monkeys ever actually played this game?
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 00:02   #46
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naps
MoW
- Can perform “friendly” espionage on galaxy without restrictions (old scans)
- Any espionage performed on the galaxy is charge to the galaxy fund
MoD:
- Can access the galaxy fund page - set trading, set taxes, view fund histories, view use of fund for scans by MoW (max fund size 25 mil of each res)

Are you kidding me? You introduced the New rule to stop support planets and now your letting MOWs use a fund of resources for scans? in what way will this stop the resources been used by alliance scanners?
Ive been in this since round 1, and i have never in any round seen a galaxy attack together. this is just another feature that can be abused by the top alliances for their own purpose
only scans on the galaxy come out of the fund, how is that an issue? One assumes a galaxt chooses who they want as their MoW
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 00:16   #47
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

So the scan fund is to perform scans on their own galaxy?
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 00:19   #48
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

sorry but i just dont get it? if a person is inactive the galaxy doesnt deffend, if the person is active he can tell the people what he wants via irc/pm/galaxy forums/ msn / any other pm tool..

i just dont see the point in wasting your time on unneccesary features


* note that large word may very well be spelt wrong lol
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 00:22   #49
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naps
So the scan fund is to perform scans on their own galaxy?
its the normal galaxy fund as well.
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Unread 23 Dec 2005, 00:28   #50
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Re: Galaxies, Clusters and Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naps
sorry but i just dont get it? if a person is inactive the galaxy doesnt deffend, if the person is active he can tell the people what he wants via irc/pm/galaxy forums/ msn / any other pm tool..

i just dont see the point in wasting your time on unneccesary features


* note that large word may very well be spelt wrong lol
noone's active 24/7.
ok, anyone active 24/7 is probably a bit suspicious.
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