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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 19:33   #1
t3k
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Ethical dilemma

So there's about an hour and a half left of this round, and I find myself in a somewhat curious position.

A couple of days ago I was pm'd by a member of Spore command asking me to "help them win the round". After spending most of my time idling and being inactive for the last umpteen rounds, the prospect of being of use was appealing. Irrelevance is so boring, etc.

The idea was that I'd join another tag, and then leave at the last minute to guarantee Spore the victory. At this time, I'd never heard of Faceless and had no idea who was in the alliance, so as far as I was concerned I was being asked to help a group that has friends in at the expense of people I didn't know. Because I don't get many opportunities to get involved anymore, I agreed to help out.

So I send my application to Faceless, as per request, and awaited their response. They agreed to let me join, so I then went back to RL and carried on about my day.

And then night. And then day.

Owing to being at work, I was unavailable until about 1pm today to check PA. By the time I was back ingame, I'd been accepted into the Faceless tag. I had a mail from the brains behind this entire operation urging me not to join if I was having concerns about the morality of my actions. By this point, it seemed a little late.

It turns out that there are a number of people in Faceless with whom I've enjoyed many a round of Planetarion with in the past, most notably Patrikc with whom I HC'd NFI back in R38. These aren't a group of people I'd want to screw over, given the opportunity.

So now I'm in a position where I'm in the Faceless tag. My planet is of a score that is inconsequential to the outcome of the game. Yet, I am being bombarded with PM's from Spore telling me I'm backstabbing them and that I'm being a twat (which I assume is related to my current situation but cannot be sure) and that I'm a sh*t friend etc, etc, etc.

So what is the verdict? I cannot objectively see how further action benefits or hinders either group, and how liable am I for a situation that was the brainchild of Spore command to begin with? What's the best course of action at this point?
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 19:36   #2
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Re: Ethical dilemma

You know my position on the matter Kenny; I'm just sorry it's all worked out this way.

I am not sure what you're looking to achieve with this thread though, I don't see how it can do anything for anybody with the situation as it is.
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 19:38   #3
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Re: Ethical dilemma

OH MY. What fresh hell is this?

This is hilarious, considering the amount of emo coming from spore members today based on faceless being dirty no gooders for hiding members out of tag?

Recluse, and Advantix, please take note. ( <3 )
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 19:38   #4
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Re: Ethical dilemma

tbh an alliance should only win if the members of that alliance contributed to the win. not saying you should screw them but its not an alliance win if you buy it so to speak.

that said, congrats to faceless for doing whatever they did to get 45 people into this position.
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 19:40   #5
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Re: Ethical dilemma

Is there a difference between a planet that plays in a tag all round whose score contributes to the overall score of an alliance at the end of a round without having launched a fleet, to a planet who sits out of the tag all round but does the same thing?
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 19:44   #6
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Re: Ethical dilemma

the people that have now visibly joined our alliance have been escorted the last few days onto targets, if members of other alliances had paid more attention it would have been quite obvious.... however, you've been too concerned with lolwaving us
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 19:46   #7
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Re: Ethical dilemma

dont know tbh, i'm out of tag myself, i could contribute a few mil to faceless if i wanted. There are so many people in faceless i know but its not an alliance that i have any loyalty to.

the type of member you described should of been kicked long ago, and in a normal alliance would sit below the top 50 counted.
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 19:46   #8
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Re: Ethical dilemma

You could put forward an argument that a tag should only earn the score earned by a planet while in that tag, but rules is rules.
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 19:55   #9
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Re: Ethical dilemma

Would that involve a tag keeping the score of a planet after they left, given that the score was earned under the guise of the tag?

Either way would a player in my situation be under any moral obligation to leave Faceless? Would staying in Faceless at this inconsequential juncture still be 'betrayal'?
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 19:59   #10
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Re: Ethical dilemma

I'm not going to say stay or leave. I just don't like it happening this way.
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 20:00   #11
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Re: Ethical dilemma

on saying that, i just noticed a few people tagged faceless that i would say fck them now!!! :P
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 20:02   #12
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Re: Ethical dilemma

You had no problem with backstabbing an alliance when you agreed to get into this whole mess. Why do you now?
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 20:05   #13
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Re: Ethical dilemma

It was the difference between not knowing who they were, and realising they were people who I don't want to stab in the back.

If they'd been unknowns or people I actually dislike, it's a no-brainer to do something that helps friends. Given the number of friends in Faceless, information I didn't have previously due to inactivity and a long absence, it's a different scenario to the one I was originally presented and agreed to.
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 20:06   #14
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Re: Ethical dilemma

but your kenny!! you have friends everywhere!
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 20:06   #15
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Re: Ethical dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by t3k View Post
Would that involve a tag keeping the score of a planet after they left, given that the score was earned under the guise of the tag?
I think that's fair.

Quote:
Either way would a player in my situation be under any moral obligation to leave Faceless? Would staying in Faceless at this inconsequential juncture still be 'betrayal'?
You have no moral obligation towards anything. But you can look at the motivation of why you were brought into tag and decide if you are comfortable with those motivations. You may have a thought either way, but whatever it is, you are right.
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 20:09   #16
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Re: Ethical dilemma

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Originally Posted by lokken View Post
You may have a thought either way, but whatever it is, you are right.
Can I have this printed in hard copy? Framed on a wall somewhere perhaps? Or is the context important?
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 20:12   #17
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Re: Ethical dilemma

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Originally Posted by t3k View Post
Can I have this printed in hard copy? Framed on a wall somewhere perhaps? Or is the context important?
The context is important. If I was in your position, I wouldn't join Faceless, but my outlook on the game is different to others.
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Unread 1 Mar 2014, 14:48   #18
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Re: Ethical dilemma

if it helps kenny, i think you are a twat anyway.

but thought i would add, dont know if you remember the [NFI] round but CBA tried to get a load of people to quit tag at the end of the round so we didnt win. perhaps that would have had an impact on your decision if i had got here earlier.
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Unread 1 Mar 2014, 15:52   #19
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Re: Ethical dilemma

Clearly you put yourself in this position Sarek.
A lot of those people that brought u into Planetarion, giving you vouches in 1up, and bringing u back to planetarion in Spore, and trying to make it to an enjoyable journey for you might feel let down when you gave them your word on something.
I obviously dont have any hard feelings for what you did, as it matters little to me, as you did not agree to this with me personaly.
And i will have no problem with you in the future, all though we will be in diffrent alliances from now on, never being in the same alliance or Battle group.
What i find amusing is that you are making this a Public debate.
You backstabbed some of the people that "teached" you so much about the game, meanwhile saying that you are having a moral dilemma with the late joining an alliance you had no ties with?
Wich side are you on? seems that you are on neither.
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Unread 1 Mar 2014, 17:44   #20
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Re: Ethical dilemma

Oh look Kenny seeking attention thread.

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/attent.htm
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Unread 1 Mar 2014, 22:49   #21
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Re: Ethical dilemma

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Clearly you put yourself in this position Sarek.
A lot of those people that brought u into Planetarion, giving you vouches in 1up, and bringing u back to planetarion in Spore, and trying to make it to an enjoyable journey for you might feel let down when you gave them your word on something.
I obviously dont have any hard feelings for what you did, as it matters little to me, as you did not agree to this with me personaly.
And i will have no problem with you in the future, all though we will be in diffrent alliances from now on, never being in the same alliance or Battle group.
What i find amusing is that you are making this a Public debate.
You backstabbed some of the people that "teached" you so much about the game, meanwhile saying that you are having a moral dilemma with the late joining an alliance you had no ties with?
Wich side are you on? seems that you are on neither.
In reality his score didnt affect whether faceless won or not. And the fact that he was part of some retarded plan, that spore concocted, and you guys are all whining about him not carrying out said retarded plan, which would not have changed the outcome of the game anyway, is hilarious. Spore were short sighted not to think faceless had members out of tag already.
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Unread 2 Mar 2014, 23:59   #22
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Re: Ethical dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Clearly you put yourself in this position Sarek.
A lot of those people that brought u into Planetarion, giving you vouches in 1up, and bringing u back to planetarion in Spore, and trying to make it to an enjoyable journey for you might feel let down when you gave them your word on something.
I obviously dont have any hard feelings for what you did, as it matters little to me, as you did not agree to this with me personaly.
And i will have no problem with you in the future, all though we will be in diffrent alliances from now on, never being in the same alliance or Battle group.
What i find amusing is that you are making this a Public debate.
You backstabbed some of the people that "teached" you so much about the game, meanwhile saying that you are having a moral dilemma with the late joining an alliance you had no ties with?
Wich side are you on? seems that you are on neither.
I think whilst 1up was my first PA alliance, I've been in and run a few since then. Were it not for the experiences I'd had since 1up, and the people I'd gotten to know (a lot of whom are in Faceless), I'd have probably not really given a second thought to helping the people of Spore should I have been in a position to help.

I put the question out to the community as I was looking for some kind of non-emo arguments that would help me make the "right" decision. I don't consider myself a "traitor" or "backstabber" and the fact that anyone is using these terms is laughable. In my opinion, my inaction at the end of the round and not leaving a tag for the sake of petulance was the only way of not doing anybody any wrong.

I didn't hurt Spore by not quitting FL tag, nor did I step on any FL toes by not quitting in the dying moments of the game. It seems that a petty few (Forest, mostly) are using me as a rather convenient scapegoat for the failings of Spore command to secure the round win.

That said, I can't say I mind the "attention". PA's boring as crap; the only thing that was ever interesting was the metagame, so it was nice to have a five-minute reminder of what that was like. But still, it's a shame there are those in Spore (though I realize not all) who do feel that I betrayed them.

This is as close as those will get to an apology:

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 00:42   #23
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Re: Ethical dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by t3k View Post
I think whilst 1up was my first PA alliance, I've been in and run a few since then. Were it not for the experiences I'd had since 1up, and the people I'd gotten to know (a lot of whom are in Faceless), I'd have probably not really given a second thought to helping the people of Spore should I have been in a position to help.

I put the question out to the community as I was looking for some kind of non-emo arguments that would help me make the "right" decision. I don't consider myself a "traitor" or "backstabber" and the fact that anyone is using these terms is laughable. In my opinion, my inaction at the end of the round and not leaving a tag for the sake of petulance was the only way of not doing anybody any wrong.

I didn't hurt Spore by not quitting FL tag, nor did I step on any FL toes by not quitting in the dying moments of the game. It seems that a petty few (Forest, mostly) are using me as a rather convenient scapegoat for the failings of Spore command to secure the round win.

That said, I can't say I mind the "attention". PA's boring as crap; the only thing that was ever interesting was the metagame, so it was nice to have a five-minute reminder of what that was like. But still, it's a shame there are those in Spore (though I realize not all) who do feel that I betrayed them.

This is as close as those will get to an apology:

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.
The Spore "command" team, if officers included, knew before tick start that we could only do as much as we could for 95% of the round, and even if we did this perfect, winning was just a lucky shot in the end anyway.
Most of us feel we were the most consistent alliance in all aspects for the majority of the round, and a few might feel that they were robbed on the finish line, but this does not have anything to do with this.
What is troubling me is that you made a deal with the HCs that looked at you as one of their own and closes PA friends, and did not hold your part of the deal in the end, no matter what outcome.
What are friendship about in ths game from your view?
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 00:51   #24
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Re: Ethical dilemma

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What are friendship about in ths game from your view?
I think any 'friendship' worth considering is one that transcends the boundaries of the game. Anything that lives or dies by the click of some buttons is ultimately worthless anyway!
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 01:09   #25
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Re: Ethical dilemma

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I think any 'friendship' worth considering is one that transcends the boundaries of the game. Anything that lives or dies by the click of some buttons is ultimately worthless anyway!
Who can we trust to hold their word if not those we label friends?
As i said that i had nothing to do with this deal, nor do i care what the final outcome was.
What troubles me is if you backstab others that uve been around for a long time, you could do it to me aswell.
Wether you think that you backstabbed, let down or what ever means nothing, as its your personal view,'others in this case obviously got an diffrent view from yours.
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 01:23   #26
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Re: Ethical dilemma

Kenny if it helps you at all. I asked for you not to be added because i had a feeling of what was going on. There is logs from our hc channel. That's why i pm'd you, only i was working stupid hours so i didn't have time to ask you straight up what you were doing.

Besides kenny, the 3 people that actually put us into a win are people we spent time with in channels and worked towards their score. Kenny and another random were asked by other hc's not to be added b/c we didn't have good feelings about.
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 01:24   #27
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Re: Ethical dilemma

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Who can we trust to hold their word if not those we label friends?
As i said that i had nothing to do with this deal, nor do i care what the final outcome was.
What troubles me is if you backstab others that uve been around for a long time, you could do it to me aswell.
Wether you think that you backstabbed, let down or what ever means nothing, as its your personal view,'others in this case obviously got an diffrent view from yours.
a backstabber, talking about troubles with backstabbing
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 01:43   #28
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Re: Ethical dilemma

I think the irony is lost of butcher and forest, theodd
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 03:02   #29
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Re: Ethical dilemma

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OH MY. What fresh hell is this?

This is hilarious, considering the amount of emo coming from spore members today based on faceless being dirty no gooders for hiding members out of tag?

Recluse, and Advantix, please take note. ( <3 )

I did take note. In fact, upon learning this, I went straight to Forest and Zhil and asked if what kenny said was true, and then promptly let it be known I thought this decision was the dumbest shit we could have done, and that we'd be far more able to take the moral high ground on your shit tactics if we just simply didn't bother trying to undermine them.

What I find more funny is the fact that you actually think this equates. If Spore had planted 5 members in your tag all round, with the intention of pulling them at the last moment, in order to pull ahead and win, then yes, I can see it would equate, but attempting to undermine shady tactics, while somewhat shady itself, does not.

On a more personal note, I find it quite funny that, both in IM, and here on the forums, you actually have spent time to try and insult and tear me down for my opinions of yours and others morality in regards to your tactics, instead of actually trying to defend yourself. I can only assume it is because there is no defense other then "it's technically legal, and was a tactic" of which most have actually not called in to question. I myself did, as previous rounds it was against the rules to have "support" planets outside of tag, but I guess these planets were not deemed "support" since most were randoms you acquired at the end, so technically, not against the rules.

Lastly, having convictions is not being emo. Yeah, I can get pissed, I can rant, and I can complain about the shit people do, but the last 2 rounds we've played in same ally, you have by far showed more aptness to emo than I, and usually with little to no actual logic, other then you crashed, or ****ed up politics. So yeah, strut around, thinking you're awesome with your win and such, but you're still a cock-up, and showing your true, idiotic colors.
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 06:04   #30
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Re: Ethical dilemma

None were randoms; one was a late starter that had played with us for half the round, two were rl friends of members, one was the supposed plant by Spore and one was Kenny. All of them had been on IRC, in #faceless, and been part of our alliance, one way or another. Kenny probably the least.
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 08:31   #31
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Re: Ethical dilemma

For the record, no-one in Spore command believes that the actions of adding players who had been with faceless and xp escorted, to be anything other than great tactics.

These were legitimate tactics.

Well played.
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 11:07   #32
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Re: Ethical dilemma

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I did take note. In fact, upon learning this, I went straight to Forest and Zhil and asked if what kenny said was true, and then promptly let it be known I thought this decision was the dumbest shit we could have done, and that we'd be far more able to take the moral high ground on your shit tactics if we just simply didn't bother trying to undermine them.

What I find more funny is the fact that you actually think this equates. If Spore had planted 5 members in your tag all round, with the intention of pulling them at the last moment, in order to pull ahead and win, then yes, I can see it would equate, but attempting to undermine shady tactics, while somewhat shady itself, does not.

On a more personal note, I find it quite funny that, both in IM, and here on the forums, you actually have spent time to try and insult and tear me down for my opinions of yours and others morality in regards to your tactics, instead of actually trying to defend yourself. I can only assume it is because there is no defense other then "it's technically legal, and was a tactic" of which most have actually not called in to question. I myself did, as previous rounds it was against the rules to have "support" planets outside of tag, but I guess these planets were not deemed "support" since most were randoms you acquired at the end, so technically, not against the rules.

Lastly, having convictions is not being emo. Yeah, I can get pissed, I can rant, and I can complain about the shit people do, but the last 2 rounds we've played in same ally, you have by far showed more aptness to emo than I, and usually with little to no actual logic, other then you crashed, or ****ed up politics. So yeah, strut around, thinking you're awesome with your win and such, but you're still a cock-up, and showing your true, idiotic colors.

Hahaha, wow! Let it out recluse... I havent been strutting around - I just find it amusing that, whilst spore plot dirty underhanded tactics, the same which they pulled with vikings rounds back, you are all emoing about faceless' perceived dirty tactics, whose are worse? Who cares, but coming from a position of trying to use dirty tactics, to emo about another alliances dirty tactics is retarded. That is all i wanted you to see.

I only ever got frustrated with other people emoing in fang/fallen, as trying to run a 60 man alliance with 1 other person is very hard work, you did little to help, despite being asked.

And you managed to emo, and go vac mode last round, over what no one is still able to determine, it seemed entirely out of the blue. That said, you often did have very effeminate moments

Still love you recluse, dont take this game too serious though. I just like to wind people up
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 12:19   #33
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Re: Ethical dilemma

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Originally Posted by Patrikc
None were randoms; one was a late starter that had played with us for half the round, two were rl friends of members, one was the supposed plant by Spore and one was Kenny. All of them had been on IRC, in #faceless, and been part of our alliance, one way or another. Kenny probably the least.
Then why were you mailing people asking them to join your tag to boost your score? My galmate got one of these mails

People probably mentioned this already, but i can't be bothered to read through the entire thread
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 13:48   #34
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Re: Ethical dilemma

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Then why were you mailing people asking them to join your tag to boost your score? My galmate got one of these mails

People probably mentioned this already, but i can't be bothered to read through the entire thread
They were recruiting for next round apparently
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 14:42   #35
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Re: Ethical dilemma

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
None were randoms; one was a late starter that had played with us for half the round, two were rl friends of members, one was the supposed plant by Spore and one was Kenny. All of them had been on IRC, in #faceless, and been part of our alliance, one way or another. Kenny probably the least.
well played, for the record maybe you should name the 5 ppl you added to tag so ppl can see who they where ;-) they had a total of 142,000 xp and added 15+- mil score.

its a vaild tactic, and yes some spore command went to kenny and asked him to join FL when we got the mail coolkat was sending around, where it clearly where asking randoms to join the FL tag.

there has even been roomered that 2 of the planets that joined fl, has been roided a few times by FL as well, there are no ways to check this unless pa crew releases attack/defense cords of planets in history page after round either :/, and for the record i hope and belive this to be utter crap and not true.

round is over and faceless won.

congratulations faceless.
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 14:58   #36
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Re: Ethical dilemma

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there has even been roomered that 2 of the planets that joined fl, has been roided a few times by FL as well, there are no ways to check this unless pa crew releases attack/defense cords of planets in history page after round either :/, and for the record i hope and belive this to be utter crap and not true.
I've no idea if that's true or not, but should it matter? Loads of times people get roided & join another ally.

I think Spore have dealt with this really well for the record. Sure, there were some last minute things in the heat of the moment, but overriding response has been fair play, so thanks for that & let's get stuck into next round.

Oh and hey Kenny, come play with Faceless for real.
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 18:17   #37
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Re: Ethical dilemma

I see the naughty BHOY is at it again.

Got to love the antics of kenny
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 19:06   #38
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Re: Ethical dilemma

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Originally Posted by eksero View Post
Then why were you mailing people asking them to join your tag to boost your score? My galmate got one of these mails

People probably mentioned this already, but i can't be bothered to read through the entire thread
Because coolkat's a nervous wreck and wasn't sure if what we had was enough. In the end, there was no one planet (the 'plant') combined with Kenny's Counted Score that would have made the difference. That's in hindsight, though; at the time I was more than happy to keep Kenny in tag. But be sure coolkat was yelled at for his stupidity!

For those who are curious:

1170 Fri Feb 28 13:59:38 2014 Joined Saiyato Coolkat
1170 Fri Feb 28 13:59:35 2014 Joined Clayco Coolkat
1170 Fri Feb 28 13:59:32 2014 Joined Cold Coolkat
1169 Fri Feb 28 12:58:17 2014 Joined Kenny Coolkat

Missing from this is Monk at 6:7:2, our latestarter, because his planet was deleted during havoc. Saiyato is my friend who I've been trying to get back into PA for a while now, Clayco is Kayil's real life friend. Leaving us with only Cold (aka Sammy) and Kenny, who combined didn't make up for the score difference at the end.

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Unread 4 Mar 2014, 01:30   #39
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Re: Ethical dilemma

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there has even been roomered that 2 of the planets that joined fl, has been roided a few times by FL as well, there are no ways to check this unless pa crew releases attack/defense cords of planets in history page after round either :/, and for the record i hope and belive this to be utter crap and not true.

round is over and faceless won.

congratulations faceless.
thats bullshit flames, probably just made up by you.
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Unread 17 Mar 2014, 00:08   #40
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Re: Ethical dilemma

Well I rarely say much but as I see it as long as one stays loyal to the alliance one has joined for the round then I beleive that player has an obligation to remain with it untill that round finishes. What he or she may do for the next round is entirely over to them.
Their decision and personal choice will obviously take into account of how they were treated by other members in that alliance the HC and leaders as one will follow a great HC into oblivion if that is what it takes. If they are not up to scratch then one surely has the right to decide what is best for them right or wrong.
But by sticking by that decision is what earns respect from all members of PA or that should be the case.
To deamonise inderviduals for the choices they make shows a real lack of humility and probably a real lack of reality.
IT IS A GAME AND ONE SHOULD NOT GET BITTER AND TWISTED if one does then my opinion is for them to seek assistance from a specialist.

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Unread 17 Mar 2014, 19:18   #41
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Re: Ethical dilemma

Cant believe this thread is still going.

If it helps any Kenny is playing r56 with us..... After fang left we can't keep him outside anymore. Smell or not ^^
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Unread 17 Mar 2014, 21:14   #42
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Re: Ethical dilemma

wait is kenny a) talking about morals? and b) talking about not back stabbing?
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