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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 17:50   #201
anImaru
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Looking at Sandmans today I reckon that Destiny hit VGN and that Conspiracy hit Destiny - hence the big loss for VGN, big gain for Conspiracy and not much change for Destiny.
Actually it was more like Dest and CT both hit VGN and VGN only retalled Dest.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 18:35   #202
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Sjor was talking about a NAP.
The earlier part of the thread was suggesting that it was a mere avoidance agreement, but since VGN's HCs don't post on AD then I doubt it'll ever be exactly clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anImaru
Actually it was more like Dest and CT both hit VGN and VGN only retalled Dest.
Heh, sandmans looks a little different now. Major losses for VGN, huge gains for Conspiracy, small gain for Destiny.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 18:54   #203
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Re: So, who's winning?

Any predictions on what it will look like after tonight :P And for that matter wonder who will VGN choose to target now, Destiny or Conspiracy?
I place my bets on they will continue hitting Destiny.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 18:59   #204
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Re: So, who's winning?

winning ? we'll see by the end of round :P
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 19:02   #205
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
The earlier part of the thread was suggesting that it was a mere avoidance agreement, but since VGN's HCs don't post on AD then I doubt it'll ever be exactly clear.


Heh, sandmans looks a little different now. Major losses for VGN, huge gains for Conspiracy, small gain for Destiny.
reading ure reply it sounds like ure happy with that? and it was a nap and no avoiding agreement, ask disc or lockhead, they know the case that will prove it.

and i would be dissapointed if ure bet isnt the right one anImaru
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 19:14   #206
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Re: So, who's winning?

First of all can people stop saying things while not Knowing what truely happened. and yes furball vgn took a beating today(u seem to love to throw dirt at your old ally). second what vgn will do tonight is what it wants. maybe vgn hc's don't respond because it's useless to say something whilst everyone allready thinks something else.

greets hylands

btw furball u hate seeing vgn do so good without you don't you?
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 19:17   #207
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hylands
First of all can people stop saying things while not Knowing what truely happened. and yes furball vgn took a beating today(u seem to love to throw dirt at your old ally). second what vgn will do tonight is what it wants. maybe vgn hc's don't respond because it's useless to say something whilst everyone allready thinks something else.

greets hylands

btw furball u hate seeing vgn do so good without you don't you?
Furball just posted some objective comments... your the one who seems to be flaming old ally mates.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 19:41   #208
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Re: So, who's winning?

amimaru check other threads on forums :P
but i must say this aint the view of my ally but MY OWN VIEW
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 20:07   #209
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Re: So, who's winning?

What is all this bullshit about it being an "Avoidance Agreement" rather than a "NAP"?

Let's quickly analyse the 2 shall we:

Avoidance Agreement: "We agree to avoid hitting you".

NAP = Non-Aggression Pact: "We agree to not be aggressive towards you".

So, in one, you agree to avoid the others planets, in the other you agree to not engage in hostilities towards the other. Can someone please point out to me exactly why it is that these two things don't mean exactly the same thing, because, quite simply, buggered if I can work out the difference.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 20:10   #210
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Re: So, who's winning?

covert-ops?
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 20:18   #211
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Re: So, who's winning?

ok i try to point it out;

NAP: don't hit a single of the other planets ally.

avoidance agreement: don't hit gals full of planets of the other ally, but if u do a gal raid and there is a planet of the other ally in there, then it gets roided as well. call it collateral damage, friendly fire or whatever :P
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 20:19   #212
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
What is all this bullshit about it being an "Avoidance Agreement" rather than a "NAP"?
I am a simple person, not hitting each other is a NAP. And this is what it was called.
And if the NAP gets some additional agreements about defending each other or really doing joint strikes it is a full blown alliance.
If it is only coordinating attacks and not really avoiding each other it is an attack cooperation.
I don't know more different, somewhat friendly, stances and so we won't use them.

For the fleetcatch: sure, it happend, based on old news that someone misread and tripped over the edge. However, just before this Destiny launched a fleet catch on one of our members because they assumed it was a CT planet. Surprising as they ofc got our lists and someone there is obviously stupid enough to mark a confirmed VGN planet CT. Or tricky enough to do it and assume us falling for it. Your option.

Wow, I posted on AD.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 20:21   #213
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Re: So, who's winning?

I assume you had specific criteria on what could and couldn't be hit then, otherwise you were just asking for trouble.

To me that just looks like something cooked up in order to be able to publically say "there is no NAP!".
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 20:23   #214
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Re: So, who's winning?

_are_ hath spoken, he just called it a NAP, didn't he?
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 20:34   #215
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Re: So, who's winning?

No offence to a former ally who i respect but i believe Vengeance are borrowing this play straight out of wolfpacks book circa round 13. I predict they only holding roids until Destiny and CT sort out their targetting. Once that happens the dominoes will fall like a house of cards - Checkmate!*








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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 20:57   #216
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Re: So, who's winning?

who the **** cares whether it was a nap or not, as long as the game doesn't have a run away winning alliance things are good.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 21:00   #217
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henk
reading ure reply it sounds like ure happy with that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hylands
First of all can people stop saying things while not Knowing what truely happened. and yes furball vgn took a beating today(u seem to love to throw dirt at your old ally). second what vgn will do tonight is what it wants. maybe vgn hc's don't respond because it's useless to say something whilst everyone allready thinks something else.


btw furball u hate seeing vgn do so good without you don't you?

First things first: I doubt there'll ever be a day when I want to see Vengeance do badly. The blood, sweat and tears adage really does apply here. Secondly, politics. Suggesting that VGN's refusal to respond is because everyone already has pre-formed opinions is naive to the extreme. If you make the 'propaganda' posts in the first place, or respond quickly to any negative comments about your alliance, then these negative conceptions won't have the chance to form. I spent 3 rounds doing that job for Vengeance.



Quote:
Originally Posted by hylands
amimaru check other threads on forums :P
but i must say this aint the view of my ally but MY OWN VIEW
How the hell did you ever get made HC? You possess some of the worst judgement that I've ever come across in Planetarion, you're politically naive and you never had any understanding of the chain of command.

But anyway - you're HC, however that happened. You don't get to have your own views anymore. That comes with the responsibility.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 21:05   #218
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
ok i try to point it out;

NAP: don't hit a single of the other planets ally.

avoidance agreement: don't hit gals full of planets of the other ally, but if u do a gal raid and there is a planet of the other ally in there, then it gets roided as well. call it collateral damage, friendly fire or whatever :P
This doesnt seem to be the case here... In VGN galraids, all Dest planets are not covered/roided
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 21:17   #219
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hylands
(u seem to love to throw dirt at your old ally)
Where has he been doing so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hylands
amimaru check other threads on forums :P
In the other "hot" thread, Furball is the one defending VGN's "fencesitting" tactic
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 21:22   #220
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anImaru
This doesnt seem to be the case here... In VGN galraids, all Dest planets are not covered/roided
psst, don't tell anyone, some things changed last night.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 21:28   #221
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Re: So, who's winning?

Ahh the joys of AD thanks for making AD more fun guys !

Anyway, My butt is a bit sore from the Destiny AND Consipracy AND Omen gangbang on my sexy roids.
Ill think Ill start selling tickets and ask them to stand in line next time hehe

Yes , all three of them, the #2, #3 and #4 ranked alliances were needed for VGN to loose some of its roids .. now thats funny ! Since I did a LOT of scans I know it for a fact that we had way more then 200 hostile fleets from those 3 allies withing a few ticks ..
(Ps everyone who knows me can tell ya I dont do false propaganda so dont flame on it, nobody will beleive ya )

At least im a crap target now and since I didnt barely loose a ships Ill just take them back tonight with interest hehehe.

For all the NAP definition flaming and bla bla I can just say Destiny obviously doesnt have such high standards in moral and honour when it comes to keeping agreements as VGN has.

Cheerio chaps, cya flying around
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 21:52   #222
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Re: So, who's winning?

whoops forgot to say something

/me DOGLICKS both furball and hylands .. I lub you both so dont fight plz ! Im sure you both didnt mean any harm so kiss and shake hands !

Oh and Destiny, you managed to get on #2 also because you were excluded from our attacks, good luck from now on with it .
I think you did EXACTLY what Conspirancy and Omen wanted you to do, how nice of you to do what they want, but if it was also smart .. that only time can tell
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 21:56   #223
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Re: So, who's winning?

oh jesus christ shut up please, why the hell are vgn whining so much
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 21:59   #224
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlowDog
For all the NAP definition flaming and bla bla I can just say Destiny obviously doesnt have such high standards in moral and honour when it comes to keeping agreements as VGN has.
Do you know how ironic this is? You fleetcaught one of their members ffs
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:00   #225
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Re: So, who's winning?

This is my take on the whole thing so far.

We've got 3 alliances of fairly equal score in the top, which is a good thing. It's quite the open round still. VGN had a massive roidlead, something which seems to be evening out now, after one night of incomings, something that wasn't really very unexpected. I wouldn't call what they have been doing fencesitting, but they have avoided war so far, and now it's upon them. I wouldn't worry so much if I was in VGN, this is something you'll just have to wait out, the incomings will decrease as your roids do, and you won't be too far behind. As to blocking, well, blocking is never bad for the game - unbalanced blocking is. Even blockwars can be quite entertaining. However, I don't think we should start considering the possibility of this round taking that turn. First and foremost we have the situation where three rather equal contenders are fighting it out, and to assume that one has any trust for the other is wrong. Destiny have already proved that they can break NAPs (Avoidance agreement or nap, it comes down to the same thing), and there is no reason why CT would want to pledge themselves to a full nap with another contender unless they are 100% sure that they can outroid the other one in the pact. I think this is common for all the contenders.

So, what we have is three alliances with reasonable organisation but not much trust for each other. There is of course the possibility that one of them could try to recruit alliances outside top 3 to their cause, but it is my opinion that this would lead to the other two banding up to eliminate that threat. It doesn't seem unreasonable that what CT and Destiny have in mind is to completely take VGN out of the equation, but I simply don't think they trust each other enough to do that - one or the other could possibly try to strike a deal with VGN to attack the other, or send the other one in solo against VGN.

Also, from what I gather, VGN is exclusively hitting Destiny, while leaving CT alone. It's obvious that this will not benefit Destiny or VGN as both will be weaker in comparison to CT. Revenge for a broken word, or a game of chicken? Either way, I'm expecting to see CT take #1 in not too long, and we'll have a situation where CT is in a good position while VGN and Destiny are falling behind. Now, given that VGN will not trust Destiny again, this doesn't seem ideal and it is my main worry that CT will pull ahead and stay there in this manner. It isn't completely unlikely, and it could give us an early end. Let's hope not.

Another thing is the staff shortage I have noticed the past rounds, I think it is unlikely that these alliances are able to wage war for the rest of the round, and I think the round will be won by politics, not military. I have a feeling that the activity on the war front will be very enthusiastic for a while, maybe a couple of weeks, and officers will start burning out without being replaced.

All in all, I'd say it's quite open but that CT has an advantage in the current situation. And to VGN - you had this coming for you. There are very few cases where alliances are allowed to sit so long on such a big roidlead. There's of course also the fact that a lot of people knew about this before it happened, and the word spread - which means more people tagging along for easy roids. Your incomings will reduce along with your roidcount, and I'd imagine it stops before you're out of the race for the top spot. To Destiny - so far you guys haven't hesitated to go to war, which is a good thing. But you have now had cooperation with both of the other contenders for the spot. You're running out of people to drop, be careful. :|

Good luck to everyone involved.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:00   #226
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Re: So, who's winning?

im am not representing VGN HC opinion
as im no HC or close to it anymore i just post my personal view.

it was obvoius ppl will gang up on us
when u have such a lead its normal

Keiz sorry for that u hold so many grudges against me
seems after Hearty u are the second guy that really hates me

unless some other ppl post that i was directly involved (which i do not think will happen) i will keep saying i did not broke my word yet
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:01   #227
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Do you know how ironic this is? You fleetcaught one of their members ffs
In all honesty a fleetcatch on one planet is a tiny bit easier to cope with for an alliance than a full launch together with at least one other alliance. I'm not saying that either is right, but the latter seems like a worse (or better) backstab than the first.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:02   #228
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlowDog
Yes , all three of them, the #2, #3 and #4 ranked alliances were needed for VGN to loose some of its roids .. now thats funny ! Since I did a LOT of scans I know it for a fact that we had way more then 200 hostile fleets from those 3 allies withing a few ticks ..
No. It took 3? (i would bet on CT and Destiny doing planet attacks, plus Omen gal raids on vgn fat gals) alliances to take 18% off your roids, but i also bet that either Destiny or CT can make you lose "some" of your roids on his own.

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Originally Posted by GlowDog
For all the NAP definition flaming and bla bla I can just say Destiny obviously doesnt have such high standards in moral and honour when it comes to keeping agreements as VGN has.

Cheerio chaps, cya flying around
Err, I distinctly remember HCs saying that this was a temporary agreement bound to change. What better timing could there be for dropping the nap? A day ago vgn launched a fc on destiny and CT and Destiny weren't going anywhere hitting each other while VGN grew fat on roids and value.
What does honor have to do with this? I would say it's simple common sense.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:07   #229
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Do you know how ironic this is? You fleetcaught one of their members ffs
yeh well, minor incident that could have been resolved in many ways, in this case they used it as excuse I think
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:08   #230
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
In all honesty a fleetcatch on one planet is a tiny bit easier to cope with for an alliance than a full launch together with at least one other alliance. I'm not saying that either is right, but the latter seems like a worse (or better) backstab than the first.
I'm merely pointing out that they are in no position to whine about Destiny breaking the NAP after they break it the previous day.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:10   #231
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
*SNIP*
And to VGN - you had this coming for you. There are very few cases where alliances are allowed to sit so long on such a big roidlead.
*SNIP
Yep , we were waiting for CT and Omen to team up, it took them bloody long LOL.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:21   #232
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Re: So, who's winning?

VgN whine about Destinys honour? you had this coming tbqfh.

you fleetcatch one of destiny players and expect the HC to sit back and say "its ok, dont worry....just dont you do it again" well sorry but that would never happen for any alliance. once you knew it was a destiny planet you should have ordered a recall, but instead you saw it through to the point where you had to recall due to defence. this is piss poor management from the vgn hc

If destiny hc had let this 1 slide then it would have given VgN HC cause to think that it was an acceptable act to commit and that they could get away with it again and again with nothing to come back from it.

VgN had this coming, and no matter how you paint it, you have brought these destiny incommings on yourself imho.

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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:23   #233
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Re: So, who's winning?

You are saying this started because of a fleetcatch that did not land? If you honestly think people will believe that was your motive, you are quite the silly bint.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:29   #234
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Re: So, who's winning?

hahahah HE CALLED YOU A BINT YOU BINT
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:29   #235
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
You are saying this started because of a fleetcatch that did not land? If you honestly think people will believe that was your motive, you are quite the silly bint.
does it look like im destiny hc?

imho it was grounds for retaliation for a fleetcatch they seemingly would not pull and wished to see through to the end.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:30   #236
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki
hahahah HE CALLED YOU A BINT YOU BINT
hush nub! :P
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:31   #237
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
does it look like im destiny hc?

imho it was grounds for retaliation for a fleetcatch they seemingly would not pull and wished to see through to the end.
A retaliation generally differs from a full scale alliance attack with partners involved.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:31   #238
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Re: So, who's winning?

heheheh some people take things too seriousy
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:32   #239
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
A retaliation generally differs from a full scale alliance attack with partners involved.
VgN had to be reeled in eventually

its all about keeping an eye on them and letting them know your doing exactly that.

they cant possibly have expected to grow unhindered surely?
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:34   #240
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Re: So, who's winning?

btw when do these so called wars start?
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:34   #241
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
A retaliation generally differs from a full scale alliance attack with partners involved.
Vgn basically broke the NAP; Destiny then took the opportunity to hit them as they were fat and in the lead...
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:36   #242
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
VgN had to be reeled in eventually

its all about keeping an eye on them and letting them know your doing exactly that.

they cant possibly have expected to grow unhindered surely?
Which means the motive wasn't a retaliation after all? I agree, they should have, and probably did expect this. It's a completely natural chain of events. But to people saying that VGN should have expected this because they broke the nap first - well, they actually didn't land and it might well have been a simple ****up like not checking the arbiter or some such thing.

I just wanted to clear up whether we were speaking about a retaliation or not here, something which to me seemed very silly if it was the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kila
Vgn basically broke the NAP; Destiny then took the opportunity to hit them as they were fat and in the lead...
They launched an attack they did not land. I don't see how that's a casus belli?
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:50   #243
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
They launched an attack they did not land. I don't see how that's a casus belli?
they didnt land because it was defended, not because vengeance hc told them to recall.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:51   #244
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
VgN had to be reeled in eventually

its all about keeping an eye on them and letting them know your doing exactly that.

they cant possibly have expected to grow unhindered surely?
Hold on, didn't you just say it was because of the attempted fleetcatch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
does it look like im destiny hc?

imho it was grounds for retaliation for a fleetcatch they seemingly would not pull and wished to see through to the end.




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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:51   #245
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
they didnt land because it was defended, not because vengeance hc told them to recall.
And this is of course something which you are completely certain about without having any actual evidence?
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:52   #246
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
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And this is of course something which you are completely certain about without having any actual evidence?
i work in the destiny dc department?

well unless vgn hc would like to confirm to me that they recalled because they were ordered to im going to go with they recalled because they saw the def and pulled
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:53   #247
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Re: So, who's winning?

Unless the Destiny DC department were the ones who decided to recall, I don't see how they would know the reasons why the attack was recalled?
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:53   #248
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Re: So, who's winning?

Well from Mek's post it seems that even after VGN found out the fc was on a Destiny planet, they still didnt order a recall which would be a clear violation of a NAP imho. The reason they didnt land was because Destiny managed to get togehter enough def.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:54   #249
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anImaru
Well from Mek's post it seems that even after VGN found out the fc was on a Destiny planet, they still didnt order a recall which would be a clear violation of a NAP imho. The reason they didnt land was because Destiny managed to get togehter enough def.
hit the nail on the head
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:55   #250
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Re: So, who's winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
Unless the Destiny DC department were the ones who decided to recall, I don't see how they would know the reasons why the attack was recalled?
i realised a bit was missing and edited it, presumably while you were typing this :P
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