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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 09:53   #1
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zik dying 1:1 ???

Does any1 think its worth playing zik now?

i mean unless you cheat yourself a nice fleet its pretty much impossbile to gain a high rank with them?

in "the other game" when zik die they at least shoot before the pods do so its at least possbile to keep your roids.
or at least make it armour based and not value based


please give me your thoughts
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 10:06   #2
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

i am going to be putting a fair amount of 'diplomatic pressure' on the developers to remove this idea, Ziks are hard enough to play as it is without the introduction of removing Ziks' ability to play for value.
With the stats changes i've suggested to appoco, the need for zik stealer deaths becomes unnecessary, as nearly all races and single-class attack fleets completely wtfpwn ziks
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 10:10   #3
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

If they do die on a 1:1 value ratio then imo they will not be a viable option. If you land an attack on enemy ships then you will have to spend the next few days rebuilding your attack fleet. Zik are already very restricted in their targets and have trouble finding significantly larger value targets due to their poor initiative but now they do not only take losses before they get to fire thus reducing their fire power but also when they fire admittedly they do steal, but make no gains. Zik player will want to keep their attack fleets going and so as their ships get more dispersed they will be forced to attack smaller and smaller targets. The most successful ziks will be the ones who can lay their hands on and maintain a kill/emp ship fleet along side their steal ships. I can know why this has been done and know it has been asked for many times. I feel that instead of reducing the amount that zik players bash I think it will stay about the same (proportional to the number of zik players) due to the requirement to selectively steal and also the dispersion of their attack fleets every time their ships meet other ships. I feel that if there is going to be a 1:1 ratio then the stats should be weighted in favour of zik as they will have a hard time of it. Although i think it would be better to change the ratio so it is slightly in favour of the zik to make up for their poor initiative (say 3:2 as an example). If the 1:1 steal to dying is implemented I feel my points should at least be considered.

P.S. I will not play zik next round even if they are the best race am just writing for the sake of fairness
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 11:25   #4
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Zik stealers fire last (except for pods). So if you go out on an attack, all enemy ships fire before yours do. After that, the remaining Zik ships commit suicide in return for a random selection of ships of a different class (which will probably be a class for which the Zik cannot build pods). If anyone manages to do well with this setup (without cheating), I will gladly salute them as a better Zik player than I could ever be.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 12:05   #5
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

As a zik one option would be a reciprocating fleet, a fleet with two classes which only fire on each other. You do not steal anything else and hopefully you end up with an fr/cr (or something) fleet which fires on everything. Hopefully a lot of the ways ziks were nerfed, the removal of zero loss stealing and same class stealing being removed, will be re-evaluated in the light of this change. Personally I'd try and cover maybe three or four total roiding fleets with zik zero loss stealers (the easiest way to do this is of course to use same class targetting, especially now we have five races). Remember the way xp comes about is going to change a lot, there aren't really going to be all these fat ziks out there you can roid and gain massive xp off.

I wanted to go terran this round but I might go zik. I'm rather worried about everyone presuming zik are totally shit now and getting more incoming than I can shake a stick at. Regardless I wouldn't advise it for a new player, at least until we see how it plays out.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 12:14   #6
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
If anyone manages to do well with this setup (without cheating), I will gladly salute them as a better Zik player than I could ever be.
Yep, until now Zik players could either Bash or Cheat, now it seems they only have one solution left... well they have some practice and the rule on support planets have been loosened.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 12:19   #7
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
As a zik one option would be a reciprocating fleet, a fleet with two classes which only fire on each other. You do not steal anything else and hopefully you end up with an fr/cr (or something) fleet which fires on everything.
Well as stats stand this would require the use of 3 classes of ships which is very hard to balance where you spend your resources. Also just to point out that as stats stand atm steal ships fire before pods do.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 12:21   #8
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Baring in mind that the stats are still to be tested and tweaked
Not as if they are the final stats.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 12:30   #9
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

hence why I said as they stand.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 12:30   #10
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowmando
Well as stats stand this would require the use of 3 classes of ships which is very hard to balance where you spend your resources. Also just to point out that as stats stand atm steal ships fire before pods do.
Fi/co but you lack pods. Cr/Bs would be my preference. And I noticed that, I don't think it got mentioned in the announcement so until I looked at the stats a few minutes ago I didn't know.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 12:33   #11
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

true Fi/Co is possible but I imagine it will be very hard going with your ships dying when they steal.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 12:37   #12
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

It means it won't purely be about playing to gain as much random value as possible. You'll have to focus your fleet and make choices early on which will affect your whole round.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 12:49   #13
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Why not implement zik dying as with salvage works now.

Salvage: In enemy territory no salvage, friendly territory you get salvage.

Stealing: In enemy territory you have to abandon ships to take over enemy ships, so you loose them (and detonate them to smithereens so enemy cant use them). In friendly space they are recoverable and usable again for the poor ziks..

That would make sense
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 13:24   #14
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Stealing: In enemy territory you have to abandon ships to take over enemy ships, so you loose them (and detonate them to smithereens so enemy cant use them). In friendly space they are recoverable and usable again for the poor ziks
Would be an interesting feature if added, but i think it would be hard to distinguish and code. Plus other factors such as neutral planets makes this hard.

I dont like that the ziks stealers die. I can see why the stats have been changed, so that salvage for people who lose their ships is generated. However i do not believe a 1:1 steal/die ratio is applicable for a normal round of pa.
In speed rounds and havoc the ziks rule over the universe with most of the top players all zik. In a normal round there are no ziks at the very top, as it becomes hard enough to gain value from steals. f/c are the only way ziks can gain value, with high ints they lose roids faster then a fat kid eats cake. With the new 1:1 ratio i dont think f/c is going to be any use as your going to risk it all for a swap of ships.

Pa team if your reading this please dont impliment the 1:1 steal/die as i feel we will only have 4 viable races again.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 13:29   #15
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-COM
Why not implement zik dying as with salvage works now.

Salvage: In enemy territory no salvage, friendly territory you get salvage.

Stealing: In enemy territory you have to abandon ships to take over enemy ships, so you loose them (and detonate them to smithereens so enemy cant use them). In friendly space they are recoverable and usable again for the poor ziks..

That would make sense
This is an interesting idea. Not because it makes sense or whatever, it's just interesting because it doesn't make ziks excessively difficult to defend.


Interesting because it means the fc "problem" is dealt with and the focus for ziks switches onto defending a lot, which alters the game dynamics a good bit.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 13:45   #16
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Gosh, look at all this. I dont think zik will be as unbearable as you are all making out, infact i found zik quite tedious and boring as a race last round. It is a welcome change in my eyes, for at least a round anyway.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 14:42   #17
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

I think its worth remembering that zik are meant to be the "hardest" race to play at. Its also worth pointing out it should be possible for any race to do well, assuming a player of the correct skill level is playing in. It is unfrotunatly very hard to judge when a change has gone to far even after a round - say at the end of this round there are no zik players in the top 100. This could be for two reasons: 1) zik were unfairly balenced against the other races, 2) There are no players that know how to play zik with enouigh skill. Now in the extreme example I gave it would probably mean the balence was wrong, but it will be a difficult thing to judge and I really don;t think a judgement can be amde without significant gaming taking place.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 14:46   #18
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Well reading around and irc chat seems to show the general consensis on the matter is against the zik die/steal 1:1.

Ziks abit like playing poker.. you need skill and luck..
with the new changes its abit like taking cards away
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 15:00   #19
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I think its worth remembering that zik are meant to be the "hardest" race to play at. Its also worth pointing out it should be possible for any race to do well, assuming a player of the correct skill level is playing in. It is unfrotunatly very hard to judge when a change has gone to far even after a round - say at the end of this round there are no zik players in the top 100. This could be for two reasons: 1) zik were unfairly balenced against the other races, 2) There are no players that know how to play zik with enouigh skill. Now in the extreme example I gave it would probably mean the balence was wrong, but it will be a difficult thing to judge and I really don;t think a judgement can be amde without significant gaming taking place.
Argument from ignorance. Mind you, the people complaining aren't very good at providing any evidence. Then again, it's pretty much impossible to provide evidence before the stats are made available, so this whole discussion is a worthless waste of energy.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 15:06   #20
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

i'm not sure what evidence is needed apart from that the great funness of zik is being lost a bit with the ability to bounce it's attacks off with value exchange etc for me personally, that's enough for the 1:1 to be increased, but really the only thing i've had 'against' zik is that it's stealing ability shouldn't be limited to them alone
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 15:27   #21
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

well, appocco did say that if they would implement the zik stealersr dieing, he would make their init level with the rest of the ships... I did not see that implemented. And i am upset. Zik was the best race in game to play for value, this needed to be balanced off. Now theyre shit, this also needs to be balanced off. I like the idea of zik ships not dieing on home defence, eventho it will be an opportunity for people to abuse it (somehow. people always find ways ).

so yeah, appocco... what happened to the idea of bringing zik init of stealers up to par with the rest (say at least terr init, if not higher) so they are still playable ?

As an alternative, introduce MORE zik 0 loss stealers. at leasr 45% of ziks should be 0 loss against designated type of enemy fleet. (aside from attack ships i guess)
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 15:53   #22
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Never played zik before and mostly dislike them, but 1:1 with their init seems a bit rough, even though their other stats are pretty high, especially damage. Even if an attack lands with their CR fleet they can lose their CR attack fleet for possibly worthless ships. At least there is skill required again, which is maybe why I've heard 95%+ complaints about this. The general public dissent for the new zik will cause even more people to not play than would have based on the stats alone, and the few ziks will have a problem simply because of their few numbers. And on a more serious note how am I supposed to xpplay/pick a race now that zik's aren't so value heavy? I usually pick whatever roids ziks the easiest

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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 16:00   #23
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra
And how am I supposed to xpplay/pick a race now that zik's aren't so value heavy? I usually pick whatever roids ziks the easiest.
At least there's skill required again!!
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Unread 19 Jan 2007, 17:32   #24
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

I agree that a skill factor being required is a good thing and even think that the zik ships dying will make a nice change i just think that they should have a ratio slightly better than 1:1 or have stats weighted in their favor.
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Unread 19 Jan 2007, 19:34   #25
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

i dunno if anyone has thought of this but do you think giving ships resistance to steal a bit like emp res might solve the problem?

tsm
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Unread 19 Jan 2007, 20:18   #26
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShadowMan
i dunno if anyone has thought of this but do you think giving ships resistance to steal a bit like emp res might solve the problem?

tsm
You mean like armour and damage? what we already have?
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Unread 19 Jan 2007, 20:23   #27
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
If anyone manages to do well with this setup (without cheating), I will gladly salute them as a better Zik player than I could ever be.
I'd gladly salute them as the greatest player the game has even seen, even considering the arguably generally lower current standard of player.
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Unread 19 Jan 2007, 20:37   #28
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

face it, bound to be changes
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Unread 20 Jan 2007, 04:25   #29
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

There probably will be changes, but I think two things about this set of stats has really been overlooked. The first is that Ziks now fire before pods. This is huge. Before this, Ziks couldn't defend well against a value player, and couldn't defend at all against an XP player who was willing to crash. Previously, if someone were willing to lose the ships, they could get full cap on Zik (before the Zik started to build a diverse fleet, that is).

The second is that the big advantage to Ziks is diversity of fleets. I always found it a bit unbalanced that Zik players could gain value in ships as well as in roids on their attacks, and even though Ziks usually sit pretty low in the beginning while they build a fleet base, Ziks always have a tendency to surge late once they get a bit of momentum. This new set of rules removes that ability to gain value, but it keeps Ziks with their (IMO) main advantage, which is a diverse fleet. The way I saw it, the biggest advantage of the Zik Fi/Co fleet last round was that it had every fighter and corvette in the game in it, and was thus able to deal with EVERY ship that could target either Fi or Co. Besides massive numbers, there was no way to defend against it. And while the fleet sizes will be smaller this round, there will still be the diversity advantage.
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Unread 20 Jan 2007, 05:13   #30
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

I usually play Zik but this round I don't think so. At best a Zik is looking for a 1:1 ratio on keeping value on attacks. With the stats the way they are and with alliance score being value based zik is about as worthless as possible while still being in the game. This totally negates the way a zik player plays. Diverse fleets? Yes that might be nice but most zik players in previous rounds had strength in steal ships. This round with the stats the way they are I would be amazed to see any ziks with a rank above 50 and I am guessing only 10% could make the top 100. You would have to be real lucky or a cheater to get a diverse enough and large enough fleet to be able to stand up to the other races.

Back in R2 stealers fired after EMP. Maybe there should be a return to that setup.
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Unread 20 Jan 2007, 09:14   #31
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsby
The second is that the big advantage to Ziks is diversity of fleets. I always found it a bit unbalanced that Zik players could gain value in ships as well as in roids on their attacks, and even though Ziks usually sit pretty low in the beginning while they build a fleet base, Ziks always have a tendency to surge late once they get a bit of momentum. This new set of rules removes that ability to gain value, but it keeps Ziks with their (IMO) main advantage, which is a diverse fleet. The way I saw it, the biggest advantage of the Zik Fi/Co fleet last round was that it had every fighter and corvette in the game in it, and was thus able to deal with EVERY ship that could target either Fi or Co. Besides massive numbers, there was no way to defend against it. And while the fleet sizes will be smaller this round, there will still be the diversity advantage.
Their "advantage" of having a diverse fleet is actually their weakness. Since you trade a streamlined attack fleet for bits and pieces of ships imho.
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Unread 20 Jan 2007, 10:02   #32
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Zik stealers fire last (except for pods). So if you go out on an attack, all enemy ships fire before yours do. After that, the remaining Zik ships commit suicide in return for a random selection of ships of a different class (which will probably be a class for which the Zik cannot build pods). If anyone manages to do well with this setup (without cheating), I will gladly salute them as a better Zik player than I could ever be.

I wont profess to be a better player than you, because I am not and never will be.
I will however take you up on that challenge.
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Unread 20 Jan 2007, 10:03   #33
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
At least there's skill required again!!

Bingo.

Maybe some people are scared some skill might come back into the game
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Unread 20 Jan 2007, 10:51   #34
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

you have to be kidding me. skill or no skill, if it stays like this, you will see next to no ziks in t100. remember r16 caths? and other screw-ups that took place in the ship-stats in the history of PA.
ziks should be more difficult to play with, but they should still have a chance. and 1:1 surely doesnt grant that to any player that decides to go zik. + the ridicullously slow init
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Unread 20 Jan 2007, 13:32   #35
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Well, remember r11 or 12 i think, when only about 4 zik/cath in top 200.

It was the same that people said then.

And I made top 35 pretty inactivley tbh, just by being a little more selective and non-dumb.
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Unread 20 Jan 2007, 14:01   #36
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

no, you made top ranks by being 1up.
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Unread 20 Jan 2007, 14:10   #37
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

a round where your alliance is half the size in members and has twice the value in ships, is not a round where your rank means all that much :P. with or without the race
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Unread 20 Jan 2007, 22:49   #38
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

i've been playing the beta playing zik. I found that zik was hard to play and the 1:1 die ratio was very hard. Playing for xp is a good way to play, but keeping value with high ship nt was almost impossible. However i thought that as a solution to this that ziks may be made more balanced if they recieved salvage in attacks. not sure on how much.. i was thinking 20% of lost ships....
Any thoughts?
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Unread 20 Jan 2007, 23:54   #39
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Well, remember r11 or 12 i think, when only about 4 zik/cath in top 200.
It was round 13 when there were 4 caths in t100 wasn't it?
You might be referring to a different round though, but from what I remember, caths had done very well the round before and were totally shite in R13.
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Unread 21 Jan 2007, 00:06   #40
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Round 12 was a Zik/Cath Round.
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Unread 21 Jan 2007, 00:59   #41
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo
a round where your alliance is half the size in members and has twice the value in ships, is not a round where your rank means all that much :P. with or without the race
The same round where I did not have any alliance co-ordination (the same round as the zhil ship stealing incident), I blieve.
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Unread 21 Jan 2007, 01:00   #42
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
It was round 13 when there were 4 caths in t100 wasn't it?
You might be referring to a different round though, but from what I remember, caths had done very well the round before and were totally shite in R13.
Could be.

To be honest, the rounds seem to be merging in to one, so I will take your word for it
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Unread 21 Jan 2007, 01:30   #43
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
It was round 13 when there were 4 caths in t100 wasn't it?
You might be referring to a different round though, but from what I remember, caths had done very well the round before and were totally shite in R13.
Yeah, they were totally shite, except for one thing, defending. robban and Shar did an awesome job defending me a lot back then, I doubt either of them finished t100, but I reckon they were thereabouts.
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Unread 21 Jan 2007, 13:52   #44
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Yeah, they were totally shite, except for one thing, defending. robban and Shar did an awesome job defending me a lot back then, I doubt either of them finished t100, but I reckon they were thereabouts.
r13 caths got mainly killed by corsairs that allowed fi fleetcatches on cr fleets
co fleets of caths werent so popular at that time
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Unread 21 Jan 2007, 13:58   #45
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjor
r13 caths got mainly killed by corsairs that allowed fi fleetcatches on cr fleets
co fleets of caths werent so popular at that time
tarants

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Unread 21 Jan 2007, 14:18   #46
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
tarants

(waves to furball)
yeah they had a nice chance against 15k cors what an average zik had
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Unread 21 Jan 2007, 15:01   #47
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
The same round where I did not have any alliance co-ordination (the same round as the zhil ship stealing incident), I blieve.
You were zik, it was the first round that stealing was reintroduced and zik were the best race, cath were the worst.
You didn't finish in t100 (there were few 1uppers in t100, forgot who was top but he was pnapped to eXi, next was Jester who was un-napped).
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Unread 21 Jan 2007, 16:23   #48
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

After 2 days sign up and looking around in galaxies, looks like the ziks emigrated to etd.

And as a sense of moral: Last round the PA team galaxy 1:1 (Yeah I know dont reveal coordinates..) started with around 60% ziks.
Now there are 0% zik and 58% etd (7/12).

With around 5% ziks the caths should be boosted and the xans suppressed.
Cath main dinner course is xans, and with lot less ziks usually going after them, specially ingal..
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Unread 21 Jan 2007, 16:51   #49
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
You were zik, it was the first round that stealing was reintroduced and zik were the best race, cath were the worst.
You didn't finish in t100 (there were few 1uppers in t100, forgot who was top but he was pnapped to eXi, next was Jester who was un-napped).
Thats not the round.
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Unread 21 Jan 2007, 19:23   #50
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Re: zik dying 1:1 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Thats not the round.
The Zhil ship stealing incident was most definitely round 13. Wow, owned by Kila, that's embarrassing.

If anyone's really interested in what rounds Forest ended top100, you can have a look at this search. Amusingly, there are no rounds when stealing was possible.
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