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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 22:23   #1
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[Beta] I'm Confused

I have an IRC client full of private message windows this evening. I've been sat helping one or two people out in #beta and a number of people both in channel and in private have been saying how they dislike the stats because they have been raped and lost all their fleet.

Anyone who knows me would keep me away from defence organising in galaxies and refuse to play a round where I had anything to do with the stats... I admin my knowledge of the stats and combat planning, etc is dire.

So... I want correcting if I'm wrong but all these people complaining about how quickly and easily they've lost their fleets - claiming the stats are flawed - are unfounded for a number of reasons....

1) The Beta environment does not match the race balances of the real round because people wish to try out different races whilst they can to make a final choice for the main round.

2) Because the ticks are set at 60 seconds, just a 24 minute break for cooking and eating tea is equivalent to a day's inactivity in the game. Go out to the shops for an hour and you've been away almost 3 "days". Also, when at your PC you are logged in to the game for an artificially huge proportion of the ticks. This completely imbalances defence fleet organisation and attack landing.

3) Due to the inactivity of some planets, after they decide they've had enough of the beta or decide to do silly things like build fleets of just 1 ship type etc, you get planets dotted around the Universe that are in a state you don't often find in the main game. Thus you'll probably get more available targets.

4) There are far fewer players in the Universe and becuse of the artifical activity levels, combat is more concentrated on those few planets. Therefore it's harder to get defence.

5) Your whole alliance isn't in the game backing you up with defence. Even if you are playing with your friends, getting adequate defence in 2 minutes between fleet launch and latest defence launch is a difficulty.

So all in all, I really fail to see why people are upset about the stats from playing in the Beta. The beta serves as a playground for people to have a go at the using the stats and for us to test the combat engine is calculating as we intend.

So my question is... am I right or do the beta players indeed have a good basis for complaint?

[Flame avoidance: This is an entirely personal view and no single player has contributed towards my writing this.]
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 22:38   #2
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

I don't think beta players have an basis for complaints for obvious reasons. They are testers, not customers. Small but important difference ;-) On the other hand it is important that beta testers can give their input on things which seem to not work...

...but: Stats cannot be balanced with 1 minute beta tests. The differences are fundamental. In a speedgame (and the beta is no different there) you will hardly see well organized defense. You won't have time to look at scans performed and think "Hmmm, maybe I should try a somewhat different fleet combination than I originally planned" and stuff like that.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 22:42   #3
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

You forgot one.

6) Some people use the public beta as a speed game instead of as it is intended: to test the stats..
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 22:45   #4
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

people who are more concerned about the state of their planet in beta rather then doing their best to find bugs should be banned from betas.
you are there to test, not to piss around in a "free round"
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 22:47   #5
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

you don't need betas to be able to balance stats anyway, at best just tweak the efficiencies a tiny amount. every one of those final changes i suggested to appoco were easily readable through the stats itself. the beta should be to ironing out possible bugs in the code and see if there's any extreme exploits available, not "fixing" stats as speedgames do not in any way represent real rounds
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 22:51   #6
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

i agree 100% with everything kloopy, phil and heartless have said in this thread (and ofc fiery) .... beta is there to be used to test for any bugs and inconsistencies within the game code...yes it can be used to double check the stats, but as previously stated major analysis of them isn't exactly feasible due to the rapid ticks...and defence is a rare occurence as such.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 22:53   #7
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

No, it cannot be used as stats test. As explained above. If you want to test stats then use excel or perform a few million combats with randomly generated fleets or whatever else until you have your values. but judging by what you see in a completely different scope is just silly.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 23:16   #8
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

beta testing is what it says on the tin - anyone playing it [ie not testing] should be banned from that and future betas
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 02:07   #9
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloopy
am I right or do the beta players indeed have a good basis for complaint?
I think the majority of players who participated in the beta test will be the same players who finish r19 like any other round...waiting for the next.

I tested for nearly 10 days today...loving every minute of it. ( I even managed to school someone at a few games of chess while maintaining the chaos of minute ticks.)

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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 02:48   #10
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

Perhaps you guys should've used the policy from last round of using IRC nick for ruler name and closing anyone that isn't complying due to the obviousness that they're probably not there to test.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 08:21   #11
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
you don't need betas to be able to balance stats anyway, at best just tweak the efficiencies a tiny amount. every one of those final changes i suggested to appoco were easily readable through the stats itself. the beta should be to ironing out possible bugs in the code and see if there's any extreme exploits available, not "fixing" stats as speedgames do not in any way represent real rounds
I agree, you don't need a beta for the stats themselves
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 10:07   #12
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

[16:45:02] (rain01): thx for the salvage
[16:45:16] (rain01): time to bash ur co too
[16:45:22] (rain01): and get my roids back
[16:45:37] (Ngarskel): lol
[16:45:38] (Ngarskel): rain
[16:45:40] (Ngarskel): its a beta
[16:45:43] (rain): yes
[16:45:47] (Ngarskel): it dosent matter, the point is to test the combat engine
[16:45:52] (Ngarskel): not your ego
[16:46:30] (TomKat): rain you initted your roids every tick for the first 72 ticks
[16:47:26] (TomKat): beta isnt there to try to win
[16:47:36] (CBA): so what if he does win in beta? its fun, i like to win as well, still tesinign it.
[16:47:42] (CBA): beta can be taken jus as seriously as game
[16:47:53] (CBA): you guys are very narrowminding critising rain
[16:47:57] (TomKat): people who take the beta seriously are those who cant do well in the real game
[16:48:13] (CBA): TomKat, so? whats it to you anyway?
[16:48:30] (CBA): TomKat, Beta is quick, like speedround, more fun then PA to most



[18:01:45] (Med-Ion): rain is really taking this too seriously =P
[18:02:06] (Benneh): yup
[18:03:29] (jer): how is that taking it too seriously
[18:03:46] (Med-Ion): he is also fleetcatching me and has another fleet roiding me next tick?


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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 10:17   #13
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

i don't think that example is fair, there's nothing wrong with fc`ing and so on; to me too serious in a beta is when people play in alliances and so on
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 11:40   #14
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

ban them both. They clearly are only there to mess around in a 'free speedgame'
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 11:42   #15
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

Arguments of how the beta is played I always find a little dubious myself. The thing with betas is that winning isn't important, but I've always felt that trying to win should be important, but with the way betas are run for PA, it isn't as stats etc. can't be properly tested. Everything Kloopy said I agree with, however only in the context of how the betas are current;y run.

In order to run a proper beta test where stats and gameplay are tested, a beta would need to mirror as closely as possible a proper round with the only difference being that the betas have people in them who actually understand the game and are able to analyse what happens and then articulate and discuss problems and improvements. The beta testers should try to win and try to mirror as close as possible how they would play the proper round so that the game can be tested in the context of how it is played. Stats and gameplay can only be assessed and interpreted based on the circumstances that the testing is performed in. Anybody who did any science ever in their life can tell you that testing involves having controls, constants and variables to allow the variables to be tested. The trouble with PA beta testing is that everything is variable from the real round, the only thing that's constant is the name. I completely fail to see how meaningful beta testing can be done when beta is in essence a different game from the real rounds, a perfect analogy is trying to see how well a person will do in the London Marathon by making them race a 5 legged rabbit across 100 metres on the moon, the only useful bit of information you might get from it is confirmation that yes, the person does have 2 legs and 2 arms and (before stepping out of the spaceship onto the moon) could breathe. Quite how that helps with the marathon I don't know though.

I think the trouble with PA betas is that, whilst effort is being put into trying new things for the game, betas have remained the same with no lessons really learnt from the running of them, they have remained unchanged and haven't gone anywhere from round 1. They have become a habit rather than an essential part of development and a preview for the community. Effort needs to be put into organising the betas so that they mirror the real rounds with people who are competent at discussion/analysis on exactly what they are playing (I guess you need players of all qualities just to mirror the real round). and as such, meaningful analysis of stats and gameplay can be made from them. Alternatively, we could change the name from beta to "free speed round" and all get ready to book a commercial flight to the moon and watch what happens, we'd get about as much useful information as from the current betas.

(Disclaimer: No rabbits were hurt/given an extra leg in the making of this post.)
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 12:06   #16
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

I think anyone claiming that beta's are only useful for testing the ingame engine are being narrow minded. The beta has a large effect on the real round, aswell as offering people the chance to find mistakes or balancing issues that were not intended by the stats maker etc. (note: Yes, people are not perfect, shock horror etc.)

Round 11 saw a great set of stats ruined by racial balance (player numbers) due to the beta. (note: If you dont know what I mean by this ask jerome'!)


Now to Kloopy: What players think of the beta is very important, even if it is not true, as it does have an effect on the game. Simply put, mere belief is enough to do the damage.

A beta is not all about ingame engines and statistics. It is equally about seeing how these are interpreted by real people and how those people use their interpretations.

Quote:
Example: If Terran are a slow starter and happen to be the target of Xan (who for these purposes most people picked in the beta) they will get bashed repeatedly. Most of these people will now have the belief Terran are a terrible choice and Xan are a great race, which will follow through to the real round.
In Planetarions case ship stats do not need to have technical and/or logical errors to be wrong or bad.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 12:07   #17
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

I agree, mostly, with Bashar. However I think there is still things we can get out of the beta testing phase in it's current form. From experience the current method of using betas is brilliant for bug testing. The betas have always brought up little niggly things that alpha testing within the team has missed. If for that reason alone, betas should continue in their current form.

However, I'd like to have a much more rigorous stats, gameplay and general testing phase next time around.


*registers interest in Bashar's moon run.*
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 12:18   #18
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zo0f
A beta is not all about ingame engines and statistics. It is equally about seeing how these are interpreted by real people and how those people use their interpretations.
How can this possibly be the case when people play betas completely differently, which they undeniably do. Kloopy's initial post illustrates a large part of this quite clearly. The only thing you can analyse interpretation wise from betas is the way that people interpret the game in a speedgame setting. Anyone who has ever played a speedgame can tell you they play them differently to the way they play a real round.

Kloopy's point about bug testing is one thing that can be tested usefully in the beta, I hadn't thought about that, but everything gameplay stats related can't simply because speedgames are a completely different game to normal rounds.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 12:23   #19
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloopy
*registers interest in Bashar's moon run.*
I'm thinking of going Virgin economy, so you'll need some rope and a spacesuit (or a serious wad of cash).
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 12:46   #20
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
ban them both. They clearly are only there to mess around in a 'free speedgame'
I totally disagree.


For those who don't know, I was part of the betas (both private and public) in Rounds 14-16. That should set the scene a little.

A beta needs a combination of players - those testing every little link for exploits (microtesting) and those playing the game itself to ensure it is playable (macrotesting, I suppose). As the betas progress and reach public beta, the latter testers are more important than the former. Ideally most of the bugs would have been ironed out by the time of the public beta.

I regarded myself as a macrotester. I built up proper planets and tested the various fleets for each race, as well as trialling potential combinations of ship classes. Ideally the other macrotesters will have chosen a variety of races (as opposed to all going Zik, which happened once). That means that we can test how each race does in combat against the other three races, and expose flaws in the ship stats. It is possible to calculate this by just looking at the stats, but I don't believe that there can be any substitute for actually testing it in a game environment (and the beta is the best replication we can make of this).

Handily, the private betas are reset once every few days, so there was ample opportunity to have a go with each race to see how it coped. Appoco was able to reset individual planets anyway so that a tester could take a look at the difficulties in starting a planet late in a round and get a feel for the potential for success.

A beta will never be as good as the real thing with 1 hour ticks. There's little chance for defence, even in-gal. However, you can only do your best. It's better to try to find out than not to bother at all.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 13:10   #21
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
snip
macrotesting does not involve playing to win in the beta. If they want to set up a planet and test fleet combinations then they should ask pateam to set their fleet to a given specification, provide a target planet with another given specification and run a combat test. After which they should analyse the results - although that may be more microtesting by your definitions.

Anyone playing simply to win is not actively searching for bugs, and has no place in a beta test.
They may stumble across one passively but thats just not good enough to be a part of beta testing. Far too many people see it as a free speedround and treat it as such.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 13:33   #22
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

Playing to win gives the most realistic fleet combinations though, and as far as I understand this beta was mostly played to give the stats a run-through...

Also, people who play with the goal of ending first, might uncover exploits and such, that other people wouldn't have thought to look for. I think both styles of play are needed in a beta.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 13:39   #23
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
macrotesting does not involve playing to win in the beta. If they want to set up a planet and test fleet combinations then they should ask pateam to set their fleet to a given specification, provide a target planet with another given specification and run a combat test. After which they should analyse the results - although that may be more microtesting by your definitions.
I disagree. What you're trying to do is to replicate the game as closely as possible, with the restriction of one minute ticks. That means that your fleet should resemble that of the average PA player (one who builds up their fleet as the round goes on and researches new ship classes). The test is how much of a challenge it is to roid another race, and how easy/difficult it is to stop them roiding you.

You're breaking it down too much into the main issues and ignoring the side-issues which still contribute towards the whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Anyone playing simply to win is not actively searching for bugs, and has no place in a beta test.
They may stumble across one passively but thats just not good enough to be a part of beta testing. Far too many people see it as a free speedround and treat it as such.
There's a clear difference between simply macrotesting (as I and many other testers did) and treating the beta as a speedround. I've already gone through these, so I won't explain again. Sure, if someone's going to play to win AND doesn't discuss their strategies, tactics and opinions on the game, then they're probably not the best beta tester and perhaps asking them not to play would be the right option. However, you're getting a little fascist here - there would be little point in a beta where no-one was attempting to build a decent planet.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 13:43   #24
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

there would also be little point in a beta where people didnt catch stupidly simple bugs because they were too busy trying to win it.
Remember the bugs early last round? ( the xp defence exploit and the production order bug) , trivial issues which should have been easily caught - but werent because people didnt care about actually testing the game properly.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 14:15   #25
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

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Originally Posted by Bashar
How can this possibly be the case when people play betas completely differently, which they undeniably do. Kloopy's initial post illustrates a large part of this quite clearly. The only thing you can analyse interpretation wise from betas is the way that people interpret the game in a speedgame setting. Anyone who has ever played a speedgame can tell you they play them differently to the way they play a real round.
Ill try and explain. Just from reading your posts it is obvious you look at things in depth and put effort into your judgement. You must realise that even on these forums that is rather rare. Very few people that play the beta have the mental ability or motivation to put the same effort and thought depth into it as you would.

A large part of the community takes their opinions of the beta from a very simple view, which is based on basic judgements of what happened. For example: Which race occupied most of the top100 etc.

It is not a 'nice' view of people, but it is realistic.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 14:32   #26
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

I have to agree (mostly) with Phil^.

However, it is important that the beta test is thourough, in *all* levels. The solution is however not banning people for enjoying the Beta, but making the selection procedure stricter. There is no point having beta testers who don't provide you with feedback / the data you need.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 14:54   #27
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
there would also be little point in a beta where people didnt catch stupidly simple bugs because they were too busy trying to win it.
Remember the bugs early last round? ( the xp defence exploit and the production order bug) , trivial issues which should have been easily caught - but werent because people didnt care about actually testing the game properly.
The xp defence exploit simply was not tracked because defense will never be probably tested in a one minute tick game. It's simply taking too much time get that done. That's a case for a lot of bugs. Discovering bugs is often about doing something and having time to analyze the results of the action, while 1 minute ticks are too fast for such less obvious errors.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 16:23   #28
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

The combat engine should not rely on testing in the beta. Esp. not if PA still doesnt give out the formulas (no clue if thats currently the case or not). You should use a software test environment to create all relevant border cases for any input value and evaluate the results.

Its funny in a sad way to see some of the statements here about what "should" be done in the beta, because once upon a time, i tried to do exactly that. I made a bunch of setups to try border cases for combats. Guess what i heard? "No we cant give you fleet XYZ or resources X so you can try something, because if we do everybody will just want a special case fleet and nobody will test the regular development of a planet". Another thing is the "can i use a second planet so i can test attacks on it" which also got obviously denied (what a shameless multi). Somebody still has the quote from spinner in their signature where he talks about banning the first "moron" who multied in a beta (no that wasnt me).

So ... building up a planet, creating special fleet setups to hit another planet with a special fleet setup now became a very tricky and difficult task (and impossible for some border cases). Dont forget that once in a while you will be thrown back to zero by other people who attack your testplanet.

Its a bit stupid to hear those "what kind of testers we want" and then making it nearly impossible for those people to actually get this kind of testing done.

I seriously hope its handled better nowadays, but i kind of doubt it.

Anyway - esp. the combat engine should not rely on random beta testing but instead either be tested thoroughly by test environments or through a peer review. Peer reviews are mandatory nowadays for many projects.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 18:57   #29
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball

A beta needs a combination of players - those testing every little link for exploits (microtesting) and those playing the game itself to ensure it is playable (macrotesting, I suppose). As the betas progress and reach public beta, the latter testers are more important than the former. Ideally most of the bugs would have been ironed out by the time of the public beta.
although this should be the case, there are still people who play the beta just to beat other players...and not follow the instructions given to them by the people running the beta....it is these people that ruin the beta for the other players who do try to properly test the game. It is these people who abuse the testing and as such push the dev team to make beta testing closed for as lon as possible
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 19:20   #30
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

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Ill try and explain. Just from reading your posts it is obvious you look at things in depth and put effort into your judgement. You must realise that even on these forums that is rather rare. Very few people that play the beta have the mental ability or motivation to put the same effort and thought depth into it as you would.

A large part of the community takes their opinions of the beta from a very simple view, which is based on basic judgements of what happened. For example: Which race occupied most of the top100 etc.

It is not a 'nice' view of people, but it is realistic.
And just as a reminder, what I was originally quoting:
Quote:
A beta is not all about ingame engines and statistics. It is equally about seeing how these are interpreted by real people and how those people use their interpretations.
I am not convinced I can see your point to be perfectly honest here. You seem to be arguing that
people put very little effort into betas and are unable/unwilling to do any testing. If this is the case, then I fail to see the relevance, as my response to you was that the beta doesn't play anything like the real round (which I think is something we all agree on), and as a result peoples responses are going to be different from the real round, and so hence there is nothing useful to be gained.

However, in addition to this, I think that such people are as useful in the beta as the people who do all the testing if the beta is a simulation of the real round rather than a free speedgame simply because they add more realism to it, and provide 'normal' planets for anybody doing serious testing to interact with rather than everyone sending fleets specially designed for the beta at other fleets specially designed for the beta, which is pretty 1 dimensional testing for a multi-dimensional system.

I definitely can't see what you are trying to explain though. Maybe I am just a bit dim today, but I fail to see how what you're saying can do anything other than agree with what I am saying about the principal of how betas work.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 19:28   #31
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

Why is everyone arguing that betas should be done by people who test properly? Anyone who behaves differently in beta from how they do in the normal round is helping to generate the artifical universe of the beta. You might be able to test how one ship acts against another, or how certain fleets act against each other, but what the hell use is that? You can do that far easier and quicker with an excel spreadsheet or a battle calc. Testing whether those are the actual results can be done piss easy by running a simple simulation with the combat ticker (putting the values in the database and click "go"). That sort ot testing is artificial and quite simply misleading as it is not in a real situation.

The testing that is needed is testing of how the stats, gameplay etc. stand up when given to the community, how they get used and how it all balances out with the use it gets. The rest is just people looking at the stats through the combat engine, which can be done far quicker by anyone who knows what they're doing in excel etc. The input those people then give is simply an opinion of the stats, and yes, they may need further balancing, they may not, but without testing them in an accurate real round simulation, the input can only be opinion based on a different context. The main problem is that the context the betas provide is totally wrong. The main problem with the way testing is done is that it is too artificial.

All that's needed is people who can play as they normally would but who can interpret what happens, describe it and analyse it for flaws. People doing anything other than that are actually causing detriment to the testing in my view.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 19:42   #32
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Re: [Beta] I'm Confused

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
I am not convinced I can see your point to be perfectly honest here. You seem to be arguing that people put very little effort into betas and are unable/unwilling to do any testing. If this is the case, then I fail to see the relevance, as my response to you was that the beta doesn't play anything like the real round (which I think is something we all agree on), and as a result peoples responses are going to be different from the real round, and so hence there is nothing useful to be gained.
I think we are talking from different perspectives. My initial response in the thread was based on the psychological effects of a beta and how it effects the community and a real round on a mental level. Simply put that the beta's effect what people think about the game/races/stats.

I completely agree with your views on beta's so far. I only differ in thinking there is more to it than a logical/technical view.
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