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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 19:23   #51
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
And you want to know this to prove what?
your answer supports the fact that alliances like 1up, and even F-Crew ALREADY have a player base from which to work with. sorry, I would have thought the point was quite obvious.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 19:29   #52
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virall
But yet no one has had the guts to stick their hand up and say, 'If I were in a new alliance, this would suck the big one.'
Maybe there's no one to stick their hands up? If so, find them and make them post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virall
If you lose a member, once again, its the fault of your command or alliance. It shouldnt have to be prevented by a dramatic alliance score change.
Yeh, but your alliance was the one to help the given planet gaining this amount of score. It's a common sight to see players growing big in smaller alliances, just to see them joining bigger alliances. Obviously this is unfair to the smaller alliances who probably worked hard to help the planet grow. You'll have to be pretty blind not to see that.

There's pros and cons in everything implemented to the game and I think it's better to give it a go before you slaughter it before it has even been tested.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 19:34   #53
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
Maybe there's no one to stick their hands up? If so, find them and make them post.

Yeh, but your alliance was the one to help the given planet gaining this amount of score. It's a common sight to see players growing big in smaller alliances, just to see them joining bigger alliances. Obviously this is unfair to the smaller alliances who probably worked hard to help the planet grow. You'll have to be pretty blind not to see that.

There's pros and cons in everything implemented to the game and I think it's better to give it a go before you slaughter it before it has even been tested.

Players getting bigger and joining better alliances has always been a part of the game. you cant keep them somewhere against their will. It will always happen too - a simple rule wont change that. And why should it?

I can't 'make' anyone post. Everything I post is my opinions. There seems to be a rift and a difference of opinion on this issue.

It should be tested before it is slaughtered, but was the old way SO wrong that it should require such a dramatic change? I don't think so tbh.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 19:39   #54
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virall
It will always happen too - a simple rule wont change that. And why should it?
I know it ain't gonna stop because of this, but at least now the alliances that protected their roids and helped them grow won't loose their effort in the 0,3 seconds it takes to click the "Quit"-button.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virall
It should be tested before it is slaughtered, but was the old way SO wrong that it should require such a dramatic change? I don't think so tbh.
I don't think such a dramatic change was needed either, but I still like the idea behind it and would love to see how it'll work out. At least I'm giving it a chance.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 19:46   #55
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
Maybe there's no one to stick their hands up? If so, find them and make them post.
There aren't many regular forum users who create new alliances. Virall, who has created one, has posted on this issue. Unless you expect half a dozen newbies to come onto AD and post, I think this is a moot point.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 19:53   #56
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by furball
I think this is a moot point.
And you don't think it's a moot point of Virall when he says "no one has the guts to stick their hands up...bla..."? Get real.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 20:02   #57
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by Nadar
And you don't think it's a moot point of Virall when he says "no one has the guts to stick their hands up...bla..."? Get real.

Delightfully off topic.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 20:09   #58
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
your answer supports the fact that alliances like 1up, and even F-Crew ALREADY have a player base from which to work with. sorry, I would have thought the point was quite obvious.
We have a player base of the dedicated players ofc. Dont think any ally doesn't. I don't however expect to have 65 members by tick 1. We do have a larger influx of new players than you do I expect. All our members will be in tag, we don't have out of tag ppl. So this proves that this change effects us both equally?
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 20:14   #59
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
We have a player base of the dedicated players ofc. Dont think any ally doesn't.
Escape doesn't, nor will any other new alliance not moving to PA from other games or with core groups of players like Batle Groups etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
All our members will be in tag, we don't have out of tag ppl. So this proves that this change effects us both equally?
your referring to the use of a tactic, and an effective one at that, however, it was just that. 1up has a core member base, as does F-Crew. New alliances, again, do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
I don't however expect to have 65 members by tick 1. We do have a larger influx of new players than you do I expect.
You do however have the majority of your members prior to tickstart, and don't need to build on the same level as a new alliance would, F-Crew is generally at full strenght or close to it fairly quickly in the alliance rankings
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 20:39   #60
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

If you are recruiting players and not score this wont effect your alliance.

But it does mean that if you build an alliance during the round you wont be able to compete with the alliances of a similar ability whove been together the whole round... im not sure this is a such bad thing though.

I think the bigger problem will be loopholes that allow alliances to shuffle players around to maximise score.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 20:45   #61
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
Escape doesn't, nor will any other new alliance not moving to PA from other games or with core groups of players like Batle Groups etc.
A core of 1 is still a core. Most allies start with a core of 2-4 people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
I think the bigger problem will be loopholes that allow alliances to shuffle players around to maximise score.
I cant see any loopholes that are beneficial. I am however waiting for players to be closed due to the farming rules
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 20:48   #62
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
I cant see any loopholes that are beneficial. I am however waiting for players to be closed due to the farming rules
The worst loopholes are rarely obvious.

Perhaps there arent any, but until lots of people have sat down and done all the math we won't really know.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 20:53   #63
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
Perhaps there arent any, but until lots of people have sat down and done all the math we won't really know.
It should be obvious that rotating people with saved resources in and out of tag will be advantageous - obviously they would spend them when in tag.

Whether or not this would be an effective way of gaining score is another question.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 20:54   #64
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
A core of 1 is still a core. Most allies start with a core of 2-4 people.
no that would be a solo planet, or 2-4 solo planets, certainly not what we're talking about here.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 20:55   #65
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by Virall
Delightfully off topic.
Tell that to the one who started the off topic instead, not me.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 20:58   #66
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
It should be obvious that rotating people with saved resources in and out of tag will be advantageous - obviously they would spend them when in tag.

Whether or not this would be an effective way of gaining score is another question.
Er. wouldnt it be better to just keep the guy with the most roids in? you have to wait ages to let them back in anyway.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 21:20   #67
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

(edit: Beaten by furball but i'll leave it)

I think this rule will be abused in the following manner:

Player A is out of tag,, is recruited in tag, spends all of his res, alliance get's score boost, player A get's kicked out of tag. (or even worse, he fakespends, get's recruited, cancels his production and gains a shitload of score in the alliance)

So it's still profitable (or even more so) to keep players out of tag and recruit them when they're about to gain score.

Last edited by paolo; 27 Jun 2006 at 21:27.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 22:17   #68
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Gee are people gonna negrep me now...

I was afaik one of the people who suggested this rule in the first place. Allbeit I didnt want to make it so complicated. I wanted to have a system to make it less "rewarding" to try and poach mid level alliance members, and at the same time, having an open alliance war instead of all of the cloak and dagger round we've had in previous rounds. My suggestions were based on a simple system that you gain score while being in tag, and that if you leave tag you ofc take the score with you, but you dont give it to the new alliance you join.

Also if you are out of tag like alot of people were in this round when you join your alliance, you will not take your personal score from before you joined into the alliance.


I guess the way the PA crew set it up was unfortunate and abit to complicated for my taste, but I still support the PA crews decision

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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 23:10   #69
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

I have a query:

People say the alliances like vgn start the round under the limit and then recruit during the round and that this will hurt them.

My question is - surely they don't plan to start under the limit i.e. they don't either kick members or give up on recruitment before the round starts - so surely this won't actually require any tactics changes from them, just they won't do as well as before becuase they will not get the full score benefit from their late additions? Additionally I'd have thought this change would make theese sort of alliances more likely to take a gamble on someone and thus I would expect new players to be more quickly recruited into alliances in the early days of the round - this tactic becomes less risky with this rule change as poaching becomes much less effective.

I don't think this rule is bad - in fact I;ve long been an advocate of removing the direct link between planet and alliance score (note I still think alliance value should be dependant on planet value and assume it still is under the new rule).

I am however worried about the potential weirdness at the end of the round where kicking top planets might poetnially lead to a score growth as fast growing planets can be recruited.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 23:22   #70
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal

I am however worried about the potential weirdness at the end of the round where kicking top planets might poetnially lead to a score growth as fast growing planets can be recruited.
If my suggestion about players leaving tag taking the score with them but not adding it to the new alliance I think this would have been prevented.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 23:27   #71
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
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OMG! I agree with Kargool! Has this ever happened before?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I am however worried about the potential weirdness at the end of the round where kicking top planets might poetnially lead to a score growth as fast growing planets can be recruited.
Most will join someone else I take it so it wont be to huge effect. My view is try it and see. If it doesnt work we can always go back to the old system or modify this one.
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Unread 27 Jun 2006, 23:44   #72
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Wonder when large players will start leaving alliances, crashing their fleet in defence, fake spending when joining the alliance, then spend all the salvage for a massive growth.

If it were to happen, I'd be intrigued to know how the hell anyone could knock the score down. In the early discussions of this, if someone left an alliance, the score they contributed stayed with the alliance. If this isn't the case anymore, ignore me because I am talking bollocks.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 00:07   #73
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Why do these new rules have to be so complicated. Imo best thing against poaching and shifting members etc. in and out of tag is simple you can join 1 alliance per round. So if you join 1 alliance during r18 which you decide to leave after some time passes during the same round, you simply wont be allowed to join any alliance again. Leaves room for leaving players out of tag to fool you enemies etc.

Comments?
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 01:00   #74
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Perhaps a rule where you cant rejoin an alliance you have left?

People should be allowed to change alliances, rejoining within a round isnt so neccessary.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 01:42   #75
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Originally Posted by K-W
Perhaps a rule where you cant rejoin an alliance you have left?

People should be allowed to change alliances, rejoining within a round isnt so neccessary.
Call it the bad blood rule

Fully support this
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 02:19   #76
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Having a rule if you leave an alliance you can not join another alliance for 4 weeks or something would be a nice rule maybe not all round to prevent people from some problems they had early in the round.

And what is wrong with disabling joining an alliance at 3 or 4 weeks maybe, or putting a very strict adding policy on in the last few weeks. Would give enough time to let an alliance have to spend atleast 4 weeks with the tags rather than having this crap rule which ruins much of the fabric of any good gameplay we had going in PA
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 02:26   #77
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali
Having a rule if you leave an alliance you can not join another alliance for 4 weeks or something would be a nice rule maybe not all round to prevent people from some problems they had early in the round.

And what is wrong with disabling joining an alliance at 3 or 4 weeks maybe, or putting a very strict adding policy on in the last few weeks. Would give enough time to let an alliance have to spend atleast 4 weeks with the tags rather than having this crap rule which ruins many of the fabric of any good gameplay we had going in PA
they dont need to make a special rule in order to do that. they can simply alter the number of ticks it takes before they can actually join one.
Tbh it shouldnt be necessary in the first place. Its a change of conveniance - simply to plug up one tactic and as a result creating others. Its not been done to actually help the players or the game imo.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 02:37   #78
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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Call it the bad blood rule

Fully support this
The practical alternative to
"roid them to the ground for being a shipjumper"

I would have to support this aswell
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 04:30   #79
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Hi guys. I haven't read all of the above, so I apologise if I repeat anything that has already been said, and well argued. It's 3:45am and I'm at work, so heh...

When I originally read a thread about this idea on Planetarion Suggestions, my initial thought was 'What a proposterously complex and convoluted solution to a problem that shouldn't even be addressed by making changes to the game mechanics'. I dismissed it as nonsense, and thought nothing would come of it. Starting up my planet in beta, I read through the changes, and there it was (explained particularly poorly I might add).

Most people posting here are current alliance HCs and officers (those whose plans for the upcoming round are directly influenced by this change). I am not an alliance HC, or an officer, and I have no direct political interest in how the alliance rankings are generated. My points below are thus mainly from a member perspective. So here is why I think it's a rediculous rule:

Start up alliances - As Virall has already explained in depth, this rule gives a very strong incentive and reward for all alliances to fully tag (65 members) from tick 1. Why should a start up alliance that has developed a core around which to build throughout the round not have as much of a shot at number 1 as an established alliance with a full member count from PT1? This rule makes it immensely unattractive to join any alliance without a (close to) full member count, even if that alliance has shown great promise with it's core of members. This should not be the case.

Forcing planets to stick with alliances - By making an existing high score useless to a new alliance, you effectively make it very difficult for a player to leave one alliance and join another midround. Yes, this does encourage loyalty. But why on Earth would we want to force a false loyalty upon players who have valid reasons for wanting to leave an alliance? This rule effectively patches over otherwise major flaws in alliance command/stratergy/member relations. It promotes apathy towards alliance members from it's command, and excuses mistakes. Shouldn't we be giving alliances incentives to improve themselves to keep their members in the first place?!

Members who get kicked mid-round - It's certainly possible that a quality member can be kicked from an alliance for an inadequate or unjustified reason. Now that player will find it very difficult to justify his position in another alliance mid round. He may be turned away from alliances that would otherwise want him for the score he has already earned for himself. I can imagine this being a very real possibility, and that player subsequently being so miffed with his predicament that he is inactive for the rest of that round or quits altogether.

New sign-ups midround - Not all new signups are new to this kind of gameplay. Many would very quickly pick up the ropes and with a bit of help from their friends, play very well very quickly. But since they will find themselves in the same predicament as the chap above ^, they are very unlikely to be given a run in a top alliance (even if they have the potential and dedication).

Score remaining in an Alliance - I do apologise if the alliance gods elsewhere disagree, but the score you gain while in an alliance has not been earned exclusively by the alliance, it has been earned primarily by the player in question. Yes, he has enjoyed alliance defence, and yes he will have participated in co-ordinated attacks, but he *should* have also contributed to defence and perhaps to organisation in return. At the least, he has contributed his time to that alliance. Untimately an alliance exists as an organisation for the sole reason that it is mutually beneficial to it's individual members. It should not exist to serve itself or it's command. This new rule effectively means that the score you personally earn while in the alliance is somehow gifted to the alliance as though it were an discrete entity in itself. If I left an alliance because it was failing to provide what it should to it's members, I would damn well want my score to leave the alliance as well.

Abuse - In relation to the above point. If an alliance anticipates a big attack on them, they can all leave and re-join 72 ticks later, thus massively increasing their 'base' score and being immune to score loss (forgive the crudity of that statement). They are also likely to shift members in and out of tag periodically to engineer this 'invincibility' (while out of tag they would spend as few resources as possible such to gift maximum score the the alliance when back in tag). This also works on an individual basis: If, for example, my alliance gets wind that my planet will be 10 waved one night, it might as well kick me at my current score (say 1mil), let me be bashed silly down to 500k and def as much as they can without an eta bonus, then let me re-join at 700k, and so the alliance accumulates my score gain between 700k-1mil for a second time.

Rediculous Situations - You can have an alliance that has 1 member at the end of round with the highest alliance score winning the round. You can also have an alliance with 65 members and the highest average score with pretty much 0 alliance score.

What irritates me the most is that PA team are trying to force something that is essentially a by-product of the game rigidly into the game mechanics. When you try to mould the behavour and construction of alliances in this way, you restrict the scope for political play in such a way that the game just becomes incredibly boring.

My suggestion - Scrap the idea. It may have taken several weeks to code, but that is no justification for it's existence. If it isn't scrapped, I'd strongly urge all the top alliances to boycott the alliance tag rankings & go back to galaxy tags. Let some lowly alliance win the round and make the rankings meaningless. Then sign all your members up at the last tick, and sandman will show you the real alliance rankings (all you need to do is multiply member count by average score!).

Really, what is the point of having a measure of an alliance that is not exactly in line with the strength of it's current memberbase? That measure would always be absrtact and pointless in my eyes.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 05:40   #80
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

^^ What he said.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 06:22   #81
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Now if read this part wrong I am sorry:

"Also, while in an alliance you cannot contribute "negative" score. You always contribute the higher of the difference between your current score and "base" score, and 0."

This would indicate to me that as long as you are still in an alliance all score you have gained since you joined the alliance contributes to the alliance score. If you leave you take away from the alliance all score you earned while there. The score you have gained will not be able to count toward any alliance at this point. Now I may be wrong but this is how I am reading it.

If what I said above is actually correct then this means that R16 will somewhat repeat itself with a little twist. XP playing will be the key to victory by alliance members since once XP is gained it cannot be lost. Of course all players will have to be tagged up ASAP to get the most score possible to the alliance. Value players won't be valued as much because value can be lost and the score of the alliance will go down.

This alliance score coding just means that defense will be less important than gaining XP from attacks. Terran stats are starting to look alot better. Time to sleep for the win.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 06:23   #82
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

oh and...

"If I were in a new alliance, or thinking of joining one mid round, this would suck big time!"
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 06:27   #83
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Now if read this part wrong I am sorry:

"Also, while in an alliance you cannot contribute "negative" score. You always contribute the higher of the difference between your current score and "base" score, and 0."

This would indicate to me that as long as you are still in an alliance all score you have gained since you joined the alliance contributes to the alliance score. If you leave you take away from the alliance all score you earn while there. The score you have gained will not be able to count toward any alliance at this point. Now I may be wrong but this is how I am reading it.
You're reading it wrong. That's not at all your fault because it is really awfully written. That sentence simply says that you contribute what you have gained while in the alliance so long as that gain is not negative. You take nothing away from the alliance score when you leave the alliance, unless you crash your planet before you leave. The only way to negate your contribution to an alliance is for your planet to go below it's 'base' score before you leave (therefore you would have gained nothing from the alliance, and it has gained nothing from you).
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 06:29   #84
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

One other thing, It is conceivable that you could actually have the top 65 players in the game in your allliance but still the alliance would be dead last with a zero or close to zero score.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 06:33   #85
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
One other thing, It is conceivable that you could actually have the top 65 players in the game in your allliance but still the alliance would be dead last with a zero or close to zero score.
here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Rediculous Situations - You can have an alliance that has 1 member at the end of round with the highest alliance score winning the round. You can also have an alliance with 65 members and the highest average score with pretty much 0 alliance score.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 06:35   #86
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
You're reading it wrong. That's not at all your fault because it is really awfully written. That sentence simply says that you contribute what you have gained while in the alliance so long as that gain is not negative. You take nothing away from the alliance score when you leave the alliance, unless you crash your planet before you leave. The only way to negate your contribution to an alliance is for your planet to go below it's 'base' score before you leave.
Ok thanks, The PA team are going to need to fully clarify this new rule.

So basically this is highly abusable in that you can kick a member of the alliance periodically and keep the score gained and you will basically "bank" the score gain. Then after 72 ticks the member returns and starts attacking again while other members are being kicked to bank their scores. This would mean that more players will be shuffled in and out of tag more often. Every time you score a big landing your HC will have to decide if they should kick you or not so that the score for the alliance is not lost when you get roided back to nothing and loose half of the gain you made.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 06:40   #87
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Im not arguing in favor of this rule per-se, but some of Furyous' arguments arent sound.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
Forcing planets to stick with alliances - By making an existing high score useless to a new alliance, you effectively make it very difficult for a player to leave one alliance and join another midround. Yes, this does encourage loyalty. But why on Earth would we want to force a false loyalty upon players who have valid reasons for wanting to leave an alliance? This rule effectively patches over otherwise major flaws in alliance command/stratergy/member relations. It promotes apathy towards alliance members from it's command, and excuses mistakes. Shouldn't we be giving alliances incentives to improve themselves to keep their members in the first place?!
It doesnt make it at all difficult to leave an allaince and join another mid-round, nor does it encourage loyalty. If there is an alliance looking for a new member, they have no choice but to choose people who dont bring score with them since nobody brings score with them. So they are just as likely to recruit you as before. If anything this rule makes it easier to leave an alliance since you wont feel guilty for screwing your alliance out of the score you gained with them and the alliance wont feel jilted losing that score.

Meanwhile your ability to grow score with your new alliance would still be based on your activity and the quality of your planet. Good players would still be of great value to recruiting alliances.

Quote:
Members who get kicked mid-round - It's certainly possible that a quality member can be kicked from an alliance for an inadequate or unjustified reason. Now that player will find it very difficult to justify his position in another alliance mid round. He may be turned away from alliances that would otherwise want him for the score he has already earned for himself. I can imagine this being a very real possibility, and that player subsequently being so miffed with his predicament that he is inactive for the rest of that round or quits altogether.
So instead of being about how much score you alraedy have, alliances would make personnel decisions based on the actual player and thier potential in that alliance... OH NO!

Quote:
New sign-ups midround - Not all new signups are new to this kind of gameplay. Many would very quickly pick up the ropes and with a bit of help from their friends, play very well very quickly. But since they will find themselves in the same predicament as the chap above ^, they are very unlikely to be given a run in a top alliance (even if they have the potential and dedication).
Edit: (my original comment was based on a misreading)

Actually that is the opposite of true.

Under the old system a new player brings no previous score to the table and is worth very little. Under the new system all that matters is the score you can produce in the future. The new system is much better for a player joining mid-round. It puts them on nearly equal footing with everyone else.

Quote:
Score remaining in an Alliance - I do apologise if the alliance gods elsewhere disagree, but the score you gain while in an alliance has not been earned exclusively by the alliance, it has been earned primarily by the player in question. Yes, he has enjoyed alliance defence, and yes he will have participated in co-ordinated attacks, but he *should* have also contributed to defence and perhaps to organisation in return. At the least, he has contributed his time to that alliance. Untimately an alliance exists as an organisation for the sole reason that it is mutually beneficial to it's individual members. It should not exist to serve itself or it's command. This new rule effectively means that the score you personally earn while in the alliance is somehow gifted to the alliance as though it were an discrete entity in itself. If I left an alliance because it was failing to provide what it should to it's members, I would damn well want my score to leave the alliance as well.
Right, the score you gain in an alliance is the result of both your work and the alliances work, which is why both you and the alliance get to benefit from that score under this system. The only person who doesnt benefit is your new alliance which had absolutely nothing to do with your score. It is this third alliance that is gifted score under the old system. They recieve the score you developed with another alliance that they had nothing whatsoever to do with, while the alliance that helped you gets nothing. If your worried about alliances being gifted score you should be FOR this change.

Quote:
What irritates me the most is that PA team are trying to force something that is essentially a by-product of the game rigidly into the game mechanics. When you try to mould the behavour and construction of alliances in this way, you restrict the scope for political play in such a way that the game just becomes incredibly boring.
Planetarion made the decision to code alliances into the game a long time ago. Its a bit late to turn back now.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 06:42   #88
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevler
So basically this is highly abusable in that you can kick a member of the alliance periodically and keep the score gained and you will basically "bank" the score gain. Then after 72 ticks the member returns and starts attacking again while other members are being kicked to bank their scores. This would mean that more players will be shuffled in and out of tag more often. Every time you score a big landing your HC will have to decide if they should kick you or not so that the score for the alliance is not lost when you get roided back to nothing and loose half of the gain you made.
Exactly. That's serious scope for abuse. Ironically, it's more likely to be realistically implemented in the highly active and co-ordinated alliances that this new rule is intended to restrict.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 06:44   #89
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

And to clarify Furyous, I think abuse, loopholes and rediculous situations are very valid reasons to reject this change. I did just pick out the arguments I disagreed with, which wasnt exactly fair.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 06:59   #90
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
It doesnt make it at all difficult to leave an allaince and join another mid-round, nor does it encourage loyalty. If there is an alliance looking for a new member, they have no choice but to choose people who dont bring score with them since nobody brings score with them. So they are just as likely to recruit you as before. If anything this rule makes it easier to leave an alliance since you wont feel guilty for screwing your alliance out of the score you gained with them and the alliance wont feel jilted losing that score.
I'd never feel guilty. If there was scope for guilt from my decision, I wouldn't leave the alliance in the first place. Furthermore, the alliance would have lost that score for a reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
Meanwhile your ability to grow score with your new alliance would still be based on your activity and the quality of your planet. Good players would still be of great value to recruiting alliances.
Not of sufficient value to let new and midround recruiting alliances fight for a number 1 spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
The reason a new player to the game wouldnt be able to join a top alliance would have nothing to do with this rule.
Only in practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
Right, the score you gain in an alliance is the result of both your work and the alliances work, which is why both you and the alliance get to benefit from that score under this system. The only person who doesnt benefit is your new alliance which had absolutely nothing to do with your score. It is this third alliance that is gifted score under the old system. They recieve the score you developed with another alliance that they had nothing whatsoever to do with, while the alliance that helped you gets nothing. If your worried about alliances being gifted score you should be FOR this change.
And here bears the crux of the argument. You're talking about an alliance as a separate entity to it's members. Or maybe when you talk about an alliance you refer to it's staff. So the alliance's staff deserve to take full credit for your gains while in an alliance? I have no problem with your score being gifted. I have every problem with a player not being in full control of how their past, present and future score is gifted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
Planetarion made the decision to code alliances into the game a long time ago. Its a bit late to turn back now.
The coding was originally there to make it easier to scope the relative success of alliances. As others have said, it was never stated that it was the PA Crew's job to manage alliances.

You never answered this question:

Really, what is the point of having a measure of an alliance that is not exactly in line with the strength of it's current memberbase? That measure would always be absrtact and pointless in my eyes.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 07:00   #91
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
And to clarify Furyous, I think abuse, loopholes and rediculous situations are very valid reasons to reject this change. I did just pick out the arguments I disagreed with, which wasnt exactly fair.
I rather gathered No worries.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 07:18   #92
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
I'd never feel guilty. If there was scope for guilt from my decision, I wouldn't leave the alliance in the first place. Furthermore, the alliance would have lost that score for a reason.
You may not feel guilty but some people do, regardless, it doesnt make it more difficult for you to leave, your argument was incorrect.

Quote:
Not of sufficient value to let new and midround recruiting alliances fight for a number 1 spot.
Right. You wouldnt be able to gift a new alliance your old score. But you would still be able to score points for them so they would still recruit you. It wouldnt make it any more difficult to be recruited.

Quote:
Only in practice.
As opposed to imagination?

Regardless, I edited that section of my post because I misread your post, and my new critique is better.

Quote:
And here bears the crux of the argument. You're talking about an alliance as a separate entity to it's members. Or maybe when you talk about an alliance you refer to it's staff. So the alliance's staff deserve to take full credit for your gains while in an alliance? I have no problem with your score being gifted. I have every problem with a player not being in full control of how their past, present and future score is gifted.
So you are now suggesting a new system where every player gets to decide where thier score goes? Because under the old system the player didnt have any control either, it always went to the alliance you joined.

And I was referring to alliances in exactly the same way you were.

Quote:
The coding was originally there to make it easier to scope the relative success of alliances. As others have said, it was never stated that it was the PA Crew's job to manage alliances.
Fair enough, but my point still stands. PA team started making alliance rules awhile ago. This is by no means the first time, so if you want to argue against PA team making alliance rules, fine, but thats not a reason to reject just this rule.

Quote:
You never answered this question:

Really, what is the point of having a measure of an alliance that is not exactly in line with the strength of it's current memberbase? That measure would always be absrtact and pointless in my eyes.
It says that alliances gain score when thier members gain score. You may not agree that its the best way, but it isnt anymore abstract than the old system.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 07:29   #93
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

All your points are valid. I don't think they completely negate what I was saying in those points, but as you sau, my argument is not with you.

On the last point. I think an alliance score should have at least a fixed relationship with it's actual value. Perhaps there should be 2 types of alliance ranks. One old, one new. Whichever is most relevant will be decided through acceptance in the community.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 07:32   #94
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous


New sign-ups midround - Not all new signups are new to this kind of gameplay. Many would very quickly pick up the ropes and with a bit of help from their friends, play very well very quickly. But since they will find themselves in the same predicament as the chap above ^, they are very unlikely to be given a run in a top alliance (even if they have the potential and dedication).
Quick comment on that. New signups have a good chance of getting into an alliance with this rule. Or, atleast not a more difficult situation as before. Since they are low on score allready they got big possibilities to gain score quickly and to be a good addidition to an alliance. They might not be able to get into top 5 alliances but all the other alliances will prolly accept them.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 07:48   #95
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Quick comment on that. New signups have a good chance of getting into an alliance with this rule. Or, atleast not a more difficult situation as before. Since they are low on score allready they got big possibilities to gain score quickly and to be a good addidition to an alliance. They might not be able to get into top 5 alliances but all the other alliances will prolly accept them.
in fact new signups might even be preferred to other planets?
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 08:44   #96
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

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in fact new signups might even be preferred to other planets?
Depends ofc abit, a big planet also has alot of ships they can use for defence etc thus keeping score for the alliance. A new planet will gain alot of score quickly but only if its an active player.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 08:56   #97
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

tbh, the new signups midround was one of my lesser points. And if the round is anything like last (in that it is value dominated), then bigger planets will still be most desirable as they still grow the fastest with their existing large roidcount (even though there is a strong bash limit).

My general point is that alliances will be generally less inclined to recruit.

Removing the 'base' score limitation would make it much riskier to recruit large players, and much more appealing to recruit new and smaller planets. Having a negative effect on alliance score would be comical

Right, you can tell I'm getting tired here, and thankfully my shift at work is now over. Sleep!
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 09:04   #98
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Why would alliances be less likely to recruit? They would still want to use every possible slot to grow score.
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 09:23   #99
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

I see everyone jumped on the loophole I mentioned back on page 1

Alliances will recruit high-value, high-roid players, because they offer the greatest possible increases in score. High-value players have a better chance of keeping their roids (and value is more important if score doesn't carry), while high-roid players will create faster increases in their value (and so a faster increase in the alliance's score).

Newbies will remain fairly pointless to recruit unless they're a known player or active. They can't put on that much score quickly, and just because it's a higher percentage gain doesn't mean that said higher percentage makes much of a difference to the alliance rankings.

XP players will remain useful so long as their attacks remain successful. Once the effectiveness of their fleets begins to decrease, they won't be so useful to the alliance any longer. I didn't play Round 17 (nor will I play Round 18), so I really have no idea what XP-'whoring' is like now though.


If I was a major alliance HC, I'd be getting everyone I know to sign up planets. Half would opt for a race strong in the early round (Cath/Xan) and the other half would opt for a race powerful in the mid to late round (Zik/Ter?). We'd see the formation of a new alliance breaking off from my own (say, one of the AG leaders as HC) and they'd get on with things and look after themselves while they could.

Once the early-round planets had had their successes and different races were dominating, I'd slowly swap the planets (leaving the top 100 players in-tag) so that we maintained optimum score gain - so the tag would be full of Ziks by the end of the round. You could cover these actions with various suggestions about the secondary alliance re-joining the first, or a HC going psycho and kicking half his members (hi Alki!). All of this is perfectly doable. Will anyone give it a go?
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Unread 28 Jun 2006, 09:23   #100
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Re: Gobsmacked - New Alliance Scoring System

Remember Germ that my original post was from a member point of view. And members will have the following priorities if they have an ambition to be in the winning alliance:

- They will choose an alliance that has 64 other members from the word go.
- They will NOT want to commit any of their score to an alliance which they ultimately might not belong to and be in competition with. So once they have spent a certain part of a round with one alliance, they will feel a false loyalty and obligation to themselves to stay.

As far as alliances that want to win:

- They will recruit to 65 and only readily change members when they can replace a slow growing member with a fast growing one (should one be available). This hardly encourages an alliance to be loyal to a struggling member!

The system takes bargaining power away from the individual. I disagree fundamentally to that.
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