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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 09:45   #1
Kargool
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Officers, a dying race?

I've played this game for a couple of rounds, and I find that it is harder and harder to find good officers or people willing to do the officerjob, asking around abit in other alliances I find that they have the same problems and that officers isnt easy to get.

Now I usually dont speculate on why this is, but one of my guesses is that PA has gotten more -one- person related alot of players have decided that being officer isnt really worth it. But that cant be the only reason.

Does anyone else have some input on this? What can we do to get people more interested in being an officer? Can we do this with ingame bonuses like we had with GC's etc in the old galaxies?
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 09:55   #2
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

i have always found in particular that its hard to get players to fill the DC role as opposed to the BC role.

I personally have been a DC for 8 rounds and i find the lack of appreciation of the effort put in by a DC astounding. Perhaps this lack of appreciation and thanklessness of the job is what puts people off. DC's give up their lives and sleep pattern so others can rest and relax, thats a pretty hard job for anyone to step up to and anyone who does has my utmost respect.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 09:59   #3
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

I think most of those who's been doing those kind of duties for a long time wants to sit back and relax, like being a humble peon. I doubt the game itself has much to do about it.

Try not to advertise it as officer jobs, that'll make them think "work work work pressure pressure pressure" and so on. Try ask a normal member (that you know and trust) to do some various stuff for you. It doesn't have to be much, and maybe include them more on a later stage when they feel sure about themselves and doesn't see it as stress.

Adding a 10% more income, or whatever, to officer planets, is a bad idea. That will make people apply for officer-jobs on false premises, which may very well be more negative than positive for the alliance.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 12:09   #4
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

DC's are the unsung hero's of planetarion alliances.

I suspect most people don't want to do the job due to the lousy hours it entails. I supose people want to either be a peon and just leech off the system or be a HC making that system that people leech off.

I remember doing my time as a DC and it's probably the most thankless job going. It was fun though, single handefly doign 7 diffrent def calls at 4am was always intrestng
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 12:15   #5
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

I used to be a DC every round back in r7-r10 but these days i just cba. Think some of the reason is cuz some people play planetarion more 'relaxed' these days.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 12:35   #6
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Ive been DCing a large amount for the last 2 rounds, and I can see why people wouldnt want to do it, occasionally we get our thanks but generally its just stress building on more stress when there are more calls than you can imagine rolling in within a 10 minute gap...

Though, no matter how much I complain, there is no job I would rather do...
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 12:59   #7
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

If that's the case, I guess those alliances most affected will have to grow to be more flexible in organising defence and attacks.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 13:28   #8
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

i dced for 10 rounds straight and it was to much work for me to do with rl. Seems we in lch had have had problems getting people to do the jobs and thats why we quit playing active as we cant offer a staf anymore to our members. most people dont wanne be involved in the dc job as it had become a place where people only complained and never did it themself not even for 1 round so i think yes its hard to find active officer for all allinaces.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 13:58   #9
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Being an officer is essentially a full time job unless there are a lot of officers. Back in r8 Fury I was MOing most nights from about 9pm until 8am. It's not something that allows you to have a normal life as well.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 14:18   #10
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Really, you just want an alliance where everyone is capable of fulfilling any role.

If Ascendancy were ever bothered and ran any kind of organised attacks/defences, I'm sure we could have done it without any kind of real formal command structure.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 15:20   #11
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Staying up all night doing 30 calls a tick, OR haveing a rl, wrk, money and time to waste on girls..
Well, sorry, yes, officers are a dieing race :/
It's a extremly time consuming job, with litle payback, you'l get to cover others incs couse you got the choise of them or you. And covering your own incs instead are extremly bad. Then to make things better you can't cover 'em all couse members can't get up once a night to send a fleet, and you'l get yelled at for not covering incs.
Well, this ain't a problem of pa, but more a problem for every ally in this game. But still, I don't see this beeing a pa problem, but ratter a problem for the alliances, ppl gotta give more back to the alliance they are playing in.
It can't rest in the hands of the few up there, etc etc. Still, this is something that schould be done ally wise, not pa in genrealy to find a more suitable solution.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 16:17   #12
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Maybe the allliance limit has something to do with it too. 60 members need the same amount of staff as 100 members (more or less) and with a decreasing player-base aviable DCs will be hard to find for most alliances.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 16:20   #13
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

As a matter of interest would any other HC tell us how many DCs their alliance used last round, and whether or not this number differed from say r7 or r12.


Quote:
I think most of those who's been doing those kind of duties for a long time wants to sit back and relax, like being a humble peon. I doubt the game itself has much to do about it.
I'd agree with this, with an incidental point being that as there are less new people coming into the game, and these types of games in general, there are less new people willing to step up to the plate and try DCing.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 16:24   #14
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

last round we had 1,5 dc before we had up to 10 active dc`s and 10 semi active dc`s and yes ally limit did caus officer troubles
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 19:18   #15
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

We tried using a DC last round, and he didn't do that good of a job, which led to him quitting the alliance because it is a thankless job and unfortunetly lots of players have the attitude now of only caring about defense when they need it. I ended up using a relay bot and a defense competition, it worked out loads better than the DC did.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 20:20   #16
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Round 15 i had 19 DC's.. last round id say less then 10
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 20:24   #17
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
Round 15 i had 19 DC's.. last round id say less then 10
me and bronto counting as 5 each :/
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 20:27   #18
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziw
me and bronto counting as 5 each :/
idd

so we really only had 2 dc's
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 20:33   #19
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziw
me and bronto counting as 5 each :/
ahh thx for being mentioned here Ziw...
:crymeariver:

well..normally you got at least 10-15 DC's in your DC channel, but the real DC's doing a one-man show over night...means its only 3-4 maybe a few more "real DC's" in other allys. I would consider other DC's as semi-active...doing stuff when they got some time.

but yeh-> it's definately hard to get active and skilled Officers these days.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 21:04   #20
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

yep, it is getting harder to find Dc's - hence, the Dc's that we know that are good are kinda "valuable" like a rare commodity and i can say for sure, that good dc's are getting offers from other allies
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 22:04   #21
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigone
ahh thx for being mentioned here Ziw...
:crymeariver:
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 22:12   #22
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

It has nothing to do with less. It's saturation. Member counts for alliances have been reduced over the last few rounds, but the hours in a day that require coverage has not been reduced (God you there? Please do that for us PA players...), hence finding DCs to cover the clock out of a smaller playerbase is tougher. Just be selective in recruitment. I think it's a good option to find/train DCs from scratch.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 22:30   #23
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

I agree with NitinA, I allways look out for ppl with DC Skillz.

I would say our dc staff have gone drastic down since round10.

more and more its 1-2 ppl doing every night.

And Marv, doing 7 calls at once isn't much Dont brag before you have more calls than you can count
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 22:51   #24
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spritfire
And Marv, doing 7 calls at once isn't much Dont brag before you have more calls than you can count
Until you have 30+ calls arriving per tick, you've never had it (that) bad.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 23:02   #25
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

1up had far fewer 'DCs' as you all call them (we call them MO's) last round, but that was largely due to our strategy. On the whole, however, the number of 'active' DC's we have I'd say has remained relatively constant as we manage to drag in as many as we need, but we only ever seem to have the absolute bare minimum, and they get burnt out pretty quick. It would be nice to be able to have twice as many as we need with each one half as active as the few we have need to be.

I think a large part of the problem is that, because (as people have already mentioned) it's a thankless job, if someone sees someone else doing the job, they tend to not bother stepping up to help, they just hide and hope the person doing the work carries on.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 23:04   #26
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziw
me and bronto counting as 5 each :/
I only count as 5 dc's Besides, i did alot more then you

Well, did my first round as officer last round, it's enjoyable, but the most thankless job, i guess the reason why allies lack officers, or maybe mostly active officers is that you gotta sacrifice everything else then pa, when doing 12+ hours on duty shifts you can't have anything else in your life, you simply don't have the time for it..
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 23:11   #27
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
single handefly doign 7 diffrent def calls at 4am was always intrestng
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Until you have 30+ calls arriving per tick, you've never had it (that) bad.
I've done both these sorts of quantities (and more) many times. In the end, the number of calls coming in means bugger all. 30 calls in one tick is piss easy if you're offered the ships. 7 calls in one tick where you're being offered sod all ships is a real challenge. When you MO frequently you don't even need to think about stats, let alone calc, you know off the top of your head the proportions of each defence ship to it's relative attacker and, as a result, you can cover several calls a minute if you're offered the ships without having to put much effort in. The main problem arises when your alliance runs out of ships to send (or willingness to send), at which point Dentists pulling teeth seem to have the easy job.

Ultimately, MOing is a very easy job if you have a scanner active who does the scans for you as the calls come in, and if you have members who are active and offer ships as soon as a call goes up. The trouble is more about member/scanner activity when calls are made than it is about MO workload.
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Unread 18 Jun 2006, 23:52   #28
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
I've done both these sorts of quantities (and more) many times. In the end, the number of calls coming in means bugger all. 30 calls in one tick is piss easy if you're offered the ships. 7 calls in one tick where you're being offered sod all ships is a real challenge.
It depends how many of you are on duty and what roles you play.

When I DCed, I usually had to scan the calls myself and tag them up, shouting for the appropriate ships at the same time. I usually handled SMSing members as well. Having people doing any of this for you is just cheating

And 7 calls will never be a challenge. It's easy to tag up the calls within a few minutes, and then all you need to do is shout for ships. It's not intensive work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
(snip) ...you can cover several calls a minute if you're offered the ships without having to put much effort in. The main problem arises when your alliance runs out of ships to send (or willingness to send), at which point Dentists pulling teeth seem to have the easy job.
I agree, but it's all about having the right people around you. In lower-level alliances it's more a case of if you get offered ships, as opposed to when.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
Ultimately, MOing is a very easy job if you have a scanner active who does the scans for you as the calls come in, and if you have members who are active and offer ships as soon as a call goes up. The trouble is more about member/scanner activity when calls are made than it is about MO workload.
Exactly - but the hours do remain prohibitive for a great number of able PA players.
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 00:00   #29
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

yes the work aint that much i agree but when your the only one and your ally members stopt caring for pa its alot harder then that and because of that many people do not want to do it in lch 2 rounds ago with 55 members we had like none of them wanting to do it but all complaining that it was not done
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 00:32   #30
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Okay, alot of interesting input here, we've narrowed it down to the fact that being a DC is the most "unrewarded" job in the alliance.

I wonder about some things i'd like to bounce with others.

What makes a DC good?

In what way is being a DC more difficult than being a BC (now that attacking tends to be more important than defending)

What other officer jobs are there than bc/dc? Recruitment, Intel? anything else?
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 01:04   #31
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Okay, alot of interesting input here, we've narrowed it down to the fact that being a DC is the most "unrewarded" job in the alliance.

I wonder about some things i'd like to bounce with others.

What makes a DC good?

In what way is being a DC more difficult than being a BC (now that attacking tends to be more important than defending)

What other officer jobs are there than bc/dc? Recruitment, Intel? anything else?
Everything in PA requires natural talent to truly succeed. elviz, for example, is naturally talented at the planetary level, as evidenced by his top rankings every round.

It's difficult to say what makes a DC good. I suppose a good DC will be able to identify quickly what a Zik with mass stolen ships sent without access to a FA scan. They won't over-cover calls, nor will they under-cover them (but the former is more of a problem than the latter). Where there aren't enough ships to cover all the calls, they will make the correct pragmatic decisions as to which calls to cover and which to abandon. They will be able to tag calls quickly. A top DC will be able to spot decent fakes - but this is extremely difficult so it's not expected of the average DC.

DCing is probably harder than BCing because of the hours it requires and the mental drain that it places on the DC. BCing only really poses a challenge when the BC is assigning fleets to targets, as opposed to merely selecting targets for members to choose. However, co-ordinating huge attacks on big planets can be very difficult - it's something that requires more natural talent than DCing. As a HC I found that some good DCs were just hopeless at BCing, and vice versa (but more the former than the latter). DCs have battle-calcs as an aid; BCs don't.


The other jobs are probably recruitment, intel and where delegated to officers, general internal affairs jobs (the day-to-day stuff that takes up most HCs' time). Recruitment is probably the easiest job of the three, unless it also involves poaching players from other alliances.

An officer with responsibility for internal affairs needs to be very good on an inter-personal level - solving disputes between players and sorting out the little messes which inevitably get created. It's their job to stop these things needing HC involvement, since the HCs generally have more important things to do. However, this job remains necessary, since a lot of these types of problems will have a serious knock-on effect on the effectiveness of the alliance.

Intel's a tricky area because every alliance does it so differently. In some alliances, it's HC-only. In others, a single officer is in charge of it; alternatively, an intel team can handle it. It all depends on the capabilities of each alliance and its members - and the alliance needs to respond to these by assigning intel jobs in different ways. Generally, a good intel officer will have a strong knowledge of all alliances' relations; they'll be able to spot links between planets both defending and attacking. It's a very difficult job, one that requires as much (if not more) natural talent as BCing.
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 07:54   #32
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Everything in PA requires natural talent to truly succeed.
Actually, no. It requires training and some trying and failing. Everyone can be trained into doing anything in PA, no matter if it's (i.e.) DC'ing or getting a top rank.
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 09:18   #33
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
Actually, no. It requires training and some trying and failing. Everyone can be trained into doing anything in PA, no matter if it's (i.e.) DC'ing or getting a top rank.
"You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink."
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 09:29   #34
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
Actually, no. It requires training and some trying and failing. Everyone can be trained into doing anything in PA, no matter if it's (i.e.) DC'ing or getting a top rank.
Not quite. Much of the job can be trained, but there still remains a need for some natural talent - and this is what separates the competent DCs, etc, from the very good DCs. Some just never make it, no matter how much you train them.
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 10:05   #35
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
Actually, no. It requires training and some trying and failing. Everyone can be trained into doing anything in PA, no matter if it's (i.e.) DC'ing or getting a top rank.
You clearly havent tried to teach Cm how to DC . Try spending a few weeks teaching him and you will soon realise you do need a bit of talent to DC. Ofc training is needed to hone this natural ability but some people are still born to DC and others areant.

Anyway at F-Crew we generally dont struggle to get DC's, theres always people whom show a flair for the game whom can be given a chance, the problem is keeping them. Those whom show a flair are often some of our most promising players. Also those whom are willing to take the job are also the most ambitious. This makes them prime targets for other alliances to poach them at some point in the round. When big alliances come knocking and offer people what they say are "once in a lifetime opertunities" then the most ambitious people will jump no matter how much you have pushed loyalty or how much you have stressed that their leaving causes problems for every one else.

Theres people with DC skills out there if alliances give them a chance. If you have to get them babysat by a senior DC whom can guide them through calls initially while they are learning the ropes and your have a set of ready made DC's to take over.

As for the whole 'under appreciated' factor, I personally think this is a myth that some DC's have made an issue. DC's are not under appreciated and its not a thankless job. People praise the DC's alot and if they dont get defence they know its not normally the DC's fault. You may get the occasional blow out by a member which they quickly apologies for or a newish member whom hasnt realised the workload that a DC has they need it explained to them so they have a better understanding but these are minor things.

The place that the "under appreciated" myth seems to stem from are the DC's own attotude. Some people simply take things too personally and when what should be an easy call isnt covered because the alliance is out of ships for that kind of incoming they take it as members underappreciating their effort. Those whom realise that its a simply fact that theres a finite amount of each kind of ship and theres more potential attackers than defenders and dont take it so personally will normally keep DCing round after round and its those whom let it get to them that quit DCing. F-Crew last round had a total of 5212 attacking fleets on us, thats around 93 a day and 89% came between the game times of 0200GMT and 0600GMT. Thats obviously alot of ships in a small 4 hour window, a 4 hour window where activity across all alliances is lower and as such you will often run low on some ships types until people start getting up for work or arriving at work so they can offer ships.It isnt a personal insult by the alliance to that DC and its not that DC failing, its just something that happens at times which a DC needs to get used to and stop taking it so personally
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 10:21   #36
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

I see wakey hasn't DCed for quite some time.......


Certainly I sympathise with all those who feel under-appreciated for doing what can be a thankless job. Many players, especially in 'leet' alliances, are so egotistical that they forget that it can be impossible to cover all calls, and instead moan every morning when they come online with no defence. This makes DCs angry - not just annoyed, but angry because they did the very best job they could.

People rarely blame a BC for their failed attack on a galaxy, but they will moan at a DC for not covering their call.


What I always found as a DC was that I'd do several long shifts, but then one or two little incidents would create a blow-out. It might just be a member pming me to ask why the hell he didn't get defence when he can easily look at our tools and spot the number of calls we had. But it was enough. The only solution was to head offline for a day or so, take a break, do some rl for a bit and then come back to PA.
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 10:58   #37
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball


What I always found as a DC was that I'd do several long shifts, but then one or two little incidents would create a blow-out. It might just be a member pming me to ask why the hell he didn't get defence when he can easily look at our tools and spot the number of calls we had. But it was enough. The only solution was to head offline for a day or so, take a break, do some rl for a bit and then come back to PA.

Boy, does that one sound familar.
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 10:58   #38
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I see wakey hasn't DCed for quite some time.......
Wish that was the case, as it is i'm basically F-Crew's version of a 1 man band. If theres a task to do and theres not someone else to do it then it will normally be me filling in. This means I not only do the usual HC type roles of dealing with internal issues, helping members, setting policy, politics ect ect but I also do more than my fair share of DCing, Scanning, Recruitment, Intel ect ect. I was pretty happy last round mind you as i managed to go a whole round without having to be involved in arranging an attack, now if i can drop something else in the upcoming round I might have a bit of spare time
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 11:06   #39
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
You clearly havent tried to teach Cm how to DC . Try spending a few weeks teaching him and you will soon realise you do need a bit of talent to DC. Ofc training is needed to hone this natural ability but some people are still born to DC and others areant.
There's no natural ability in DC'ing You may be talented, but that's only because you have experience with the game and how the stats work. Anyone can be trained into becoming good at DC'ing. Your skills in maths counts a bit too, but with all the bcalcs flying around it doesn't really matter.
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 11:10   #40
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

You can be talented in the sense of not being a completely illogical unable to multi-task raving moron I guess.
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 11:25   #41
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
There's no natural ability in DC'ing You may be talented, but that's only because you have experience with the game and how the stats work. Anyone can be trained into becoming good at DC'ing. Your skills in maths counts a bit too, but with all the bcalcs flying around it doesn't really matter.
There is, for the reasons I listed earlier - an ability to spot fakes, to calc massive Ziks incs - for these types of calls, training can only take you so far.

Players aren't equally good at understanding the stats and the strategies relating to them. The difference there is based in talent, not training.
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 11:30   #42
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

So you mean we're born with that ability?
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 11:34   #43
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
So you mean we're born with that ability?
In a way, yes. Good DCs will have a natural ability to do certain things with numbers very quickly and appreciate the nuances of different numbers and their effects. Good BCs will do that even more, in line with my contention that top-level BCing requires more natural talent.


At the end of the day you're playing a text-based game where you match one set of numbers to another: do it enough times and you 'win'.
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 11:44   #44
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Spotting i.e. a zik fake is definitely not a natural ability though, it's experience.

Anyway, back to topic I guess. How shall we get more great DC's? Couple great DC's DNA's and breed them?
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 11:57   #45
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

i actually laughed aloud at the suggestion of some sort of "natural talent" involved with planetary management. though i suppose social skills and logic can be somewhat "natural", but still; hahaha.

with regards to the original question at hand another point to be noted is that what's actually in it for people to dc/mo these days? in earlier rounds it you "needed" to be the most hardcore to win (although this is not actuall y true) and there was a level of respect attainable by being a dilligent officer, however as rounds go on and the rest of the pa in their elegantly fast nature realise activity effort isn't an actual necessity (see 1up last round for an example) people are probably somewhat less motivated to dc and hope to do just as well by putting less in.
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 12:08   #46
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

I wouldn't call it natural, although I think you may do it quicker if you have a good grasp of numbers, the significance of numbers can be trained, but I don't think people train thier DC's to be good at maths!
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 12:43   #47
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
Anyway, back to topic I guess. How shall we get more great DC's? Couple great DC's DNA's and breed them?
Ziw's already having my baby
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 13:13   #48
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
I supose people want to either be a peon and just leech off the system or be a HC making that system that people leech off.
Sid and myself are consistently among the most active 1up MO's every round.
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 13:21   #49
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
This means I not only do the usual HC type roles of dealing with internal issues, helping members, setting policy, politics ect ect but I also do more than my fair share of DCing, Scanning, Recruitment, Intel ect ect.
This is how it's been done in 1up since the beginning.
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Unread 19 Jun 2006, 14:25   #50
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Re: Officers, a dying race?

What you need is stamina. There are DCs who can keep it going for 30 hours and yet still laugh at the poor sods that are off to bed. Personally I’m a wrack after 5-6 hours
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