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Unread 25 May 2006, 16:16   #251
Tis
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

haha... i miss this game.

the more things change, the more they stay the same

<rain> wtf?!?! why wont you guys commit to spending the rest of the round helping me win?!
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Unread 25 May 2006, 16:24   #252
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
Got a guy in gal now which says he has been donating res to 1up tag entire round, and will now start playing when he has been kicked from tag. and asking for res to do so.

Not saying its cheating..but imo its in the grey area.
It's not a grey area either, it was checked with PA Team prior to it taking place.

The planet in question will not be asking for donations from 1up as they are no longer in the tag. They will also not being participating in any kind of attacking or defending with 1up, so I fail to see the problem either you or Robban have.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 16:39   #253
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

ok... first of:
ND and InS had been targeting Omen since tick 300ish, i am Omen casualty in this matter...
but thats besides anything....
the point that i want to make, and that i am still to hear any decent answer is:
What does ND and InS want to do about 1up most likely winning the round ? So far, from the responce of their HCs i understand, that they are saying something along the lines of "well, we could have done it before, but Omen made some sort of Faux Pas, and now we will sit in the corner waiting for the round to end, watching omen fight "their" fight with 1up, and we just dont care because we are content where we are, with potential #2 and #3 spots."

Let me remind those of you who forgot: This game, like any other, is made, and played, to be won. If you cannot win if you do not attempt to, the phrase "next round will be ours" is bullshit (pardon me french) as the winning alliance can just steal your members dissatisfied with your unwillingness to act, which i am sure there are a plethora of. So, even if during the process of attempting to win, you will get bashed into oblivion, its still better then folding your arms and saying "that fight isnt ours"

and i do understand antipathy between ND+InS and Omen, but there is a time to forget previous instances and unite in the face of stronger force threatening, or be taken over by it. Tbh, i just dont understand what ND and InS are hoping for... their spots in top 5 are pretty much guaranteed this round... So what do you have to loose, gain, or proove by not doing anything ? One thing you loose, is round 17. And in PA, nothing else matters.

/ramble
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Unread 25 May 2006, 16:45   #254
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
It's not a grey area either, it was checked with PA Team prior to it taking place.

The planet in question will not be asking for donations from 1up as they are no longer in the tag. They will also not being participating in any kind of attacking or defending with 1up, so I fail to see the problem either you or Robban have.
The problem is.

1up had more than 60 players playing all the time.
Those that where in tag just donated res which later where given to real players. The fact that 1up did this means its a GREAT tactic. If f.ex eXi had been doing the same, all would be screaming about ABUSE!!!!SUPPORT PLANETS!!!

Also - The MHs r not V clear with it. They say that if it happened alot it would be closure reason..they said they woull look into it.

Looking forward to abuse / bend the rules in future rounds.

All is fine and all, but I hate it when u guys take the role as morale savours in prev. rounds, and then pull a stunt like this.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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Unread 25 May 2006, 16:48   #255
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

oh - and he asked galaxy for donations. needless to say he wont be getting any, and is going to be exiled.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 25 May 2006, 17:10   #256
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
oh - and he asked galaxy for donations. needless to say he wont be getting any, and is going to be exiled.
your really gonna show him huh.. way to use those l33t galaxy command skills sparky
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Unread 25 May 2006, 17:11   #257
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

I dont c any reason to have a planet which has played from tick 1, with 0 ships.

Sry.

edit: I dont exile active people which play, but keeping a support planet in gal, is imo a wasted spot
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 25 May 2006, 17:18   #258
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
and i do understand antipathy between ND+InS and Omen, but there is a time to forget previous instances and unite in the face of stronger force threatening, or be taken over by it. Tbh, i just dont understand what ND and InS are hoping for... their spots in top 5 are pretty much guaranteed this round... So what do you have to loose, gain, or proove by not doing anything ? One thing you loose, is round 17. And in PA, nothing else matters.

/ramble
a public gesture, let's say expressing of respect and apology, from Omen might go a long way in this case
however I am not saying it would or that is what ND wants, as I'm just a scanning peon this round
but if I was still HC it would go a long way atleast

one thing ND imo doesn't loose is the respect from it's members by siding with an alliance that has a HC as arrogant as keizari.. and I'll take keeping respect from our members over winning a round any time any day
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Unread 25 May 2006, 17:32   #259
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
I dont c any reason to have a planet which has played from tick 1, with 0 ships.

Sry.

edit: I dont exile active people which play, but keeping a support planet in gal, is imo a wasted spot
Well done on leaving him there for 950 ticks then exiling when he says he's playing properly. Logic ftw.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyBGood
mazzelaar has always reminded me of a hungry hungry hippo. Except instead of eating marbles he just bites the heads off new AD posters
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Unread 25 May 2006, 17:34   #260
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
Well done on leaving him there for 950 ticks then exiling when he says he's playing properly. Logic ftw.
he was exiled into my galaxy 25 hrs ago.

logic ftw?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 25 May 2006, 17:45   #261
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by El-CuRa
a public gesture, let's say expressing of respect and apology, from Omen might go a long way in this case
however I am not saying it would or that is what ND wants, as I'm just a scanning peon this round
but if I was still HC it would go a long way atleast

one thing ND imo doesn't loose is the respect from it's members by siding with an alliance that has a HC as arrogant as keizari.. and I'll take keeping respect from our members over winning a round any time any day
Keizari's arrogance is a matter of personal point of view. I like it, HC needs to be arrogant. All good HCs are arrogant. Its not nececeraly bad, in fact I would prefer an arrogant HC to those lacking ambition. And lack of ambition, in this case, if an alliance treat i am trying to show and target. Sometimes we have to set personal pride aside to feed our ambitions, for there is not a better feeling then ambition acomplished.
Tell me 1 person that started playing this round not hoping his alliance will be #1 after all said and done, and i will show you a newbie. (Not that there is anything wrong with being a newbie. in fact, i prefer associating myself with new PA players over seasoned veterans, as they can appreciate your help and advice, and coaching and after a while become faithfull friends.)
But ambition should drive you in any game. Especially multiplayer game. If you dont have it, go watch some TV or something... the result will be about the same.
As for public appology... what exactly would Omen appologize for ? I do not understand. As far as i understand, Omen barged into already complex prebuilt PA political scene and showed all but 1up how to play this game. Yes, arrogant, but arrogance well deserved, hence i dont feel like appology is needed. This is how its supposed to be played. You have to understand it. If you were in the same spot, i hope you would do the same thing. That constitutes a well built, well ran alliance.
Of course, my oppinion is severly biased in favor of omen, as i always had been loyal to the last strand to the alliance i had been in. But we all seen that both ND and InS tried playing catch up on roids with omen and had fallen back by alot, untill resurfacing of 1up. So unless i missed something, Omen had prooven to be better then both, ND and InS. And now you want us to appologize for being better alliance ?! Would you do the same thing ? under same circumstances ?

but that is straying from the topic a bit. If an alliance is cool with not wining the round, I, personally, wouldnt wanna be in it. I play to win. Or play to try and win at least. And i know i cannot acomplish such by idling. So unless u see a good strategic advantage that would help you win this round by staying as far from conflict as possible, I would strongly recommend to take action, in spite of past differences.

just my 0.02 $. Not that it means much. I am a peon and only voicing my personal point of view.
/ramble.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 17:47   #262
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
he was exiled into my galaxy 25 hrs ago.

logic ftw?
And you still didn't exile him? OMG INACTIVE!
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Unread 25 May 2006, 17:49   #263
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by XelNaga
And you still didn't exile him? OMG INACTIVE!
exile vote started.

waiting for ministers to vote.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 25 May 2006, 17:54   #264
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

i agree with wishie that if exi used the donation thing they would've been hounded. i can't think of even one half-reasonable reason why the PAteam allow it. i mean it's funny really, considering all the 1up players talking about playing pa "the way it was meant to be played" - good job! don't get me wrong, i have nothing against the action itself as it's legal and using all ingame features legally to improve yourself in innovative fashion is always great in my eyes, but hypocrisy is just as fantastic too
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Unread 25 May 2006, 17:55   #265
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
i agree with wishie that if exi used the donation thing they would've been hounded. i can't think of even one half-reasonable reason why the PAteam allow it. i mean it's funny really, considering all the 1up players talking about playing pa "the way it was meant to be played" - good job! don't get me wrong, i have nothing against the action itself as it's legal and using all ingame features legally to improve yourself in innovative fashion is always great in my eyes, but hypocrisy is just as fantastic too
my thoughts exactly..just a bit better worded than my post

<3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 25 May 2006, 17:58   #266
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Just a quick thought I suddenly had.

I wonder how different this round would have been if xp actually meant something more than a token gesture. I'm pretty sure Omen wouldn't have done so well (or at least would have had to drastically change their roiding habits). The 1up situation would have been interesting with them being out of tag and it may have been a bit of a farce (Ascendency last round) but I feel other than that the round may have seen a lot more happen politically as hitting big planets (and therefore big alliances) would have been worth far more than it has been this round.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 18:02   #267
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
Keizari's arrogance is a matter of personal point of view. I like it, HC needs to be arrogant. All good HCs are arrogant. Its not nececeraly bad, in fact I would prefer an arrogant HC to those lacking ambition.
not if that HC has to deal with other allianes and can't hide his arrogance, limiting the political play of the alliance for whom that HC plays
and in case of omen where they wanted to get all other alliances doing all the work for them, and arrogant HC can't accomplish it and get's told to **** off

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
Sometimes we have to set personal pride aside to feed our ambitions, for there is not a better feeling then ambition acomplished.
well maybe this is the time for keizari to set his personal pride aside to feed his ambitions, cause he's done a terrible job so far


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
But ambition should drive you in any game. Especially multiplayer game. If you dont have it, go watch some TV or something... the result will be about the same.
tell that to the scanners of your alliance, DCs of your alliance, defwhores of your alliance, etc.. they don't play the game for their ambition, they play it to gain respect by their alliance
respect is what should drive any HC, a HC with no respect and tons of ambition won't get anywhere

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
As for public appology... what exactly would Omen appologize for ? I do not understand. As far as i understand, Omen barged into already complex prebuilt PA political scene and showed all but 1up how to play this game.
wait, so they showed us how to settle for a top 5 spot while another alliance gains victory because they tried to get all other alliances to do their dirty work but failed miserably?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
So unless i missed something, Omen had prooven to be better then both, ND and InS. And now you want us to appologize for being better alliance ?! Would you do the same thing ? under same circumstances ?
We'll see if Omen is still around after 17 rounds, then you can say they have proven to be anything. For now they've only proven to have no political skills (not saying ND did a very good job of it this round) and the ability to recruit mercenaries that were rejected by all other top alliances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
So unless u see a good strategic advantage that would help you win this round by staying as far from conflict as possible, I would strongly recommend to take action, in spite of past differences.
It'll take far more than recommendations. Especially with past differences.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 18:02   #268
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
Just a quick thought I suddenly had.

I wonder how different this round would have been if xp actually meant something more than a token gesture. I'm pretty sure Omen wouldn't have done so well (or at least would have had to drastically change their roiding habits). The 1up situation would have been interesting with them being out of tag and it may have been a bit of a farce (Ascendency last round) but I feel other than that the round may have seen a lot more happen politically as hitting big planets (and therefore big alliances) would have been worth far more than it has been this round.
Put XP in like last round and 1up probably wouldn't have bothered playing. If we had, then we'd have been full of caths/terrans with attack-only fleets and bucket-loads of saved res which was fake-spent to scare off attackers but never actually spent for real on def fleets. And we wouldn't even have bothered making a tag - let alone joining it - yet.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 18:07   #269
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
i agree with wishie that if exi used the donation thing they would've been hounded. i can't think of even one half-reasonable reason why the PAteam allow it. i mean it's funny really, considering all the 1up players talking about playing pa "the way it was meant to be played" - good job! don't get me wrong, i have nothing against the action itself as it's legal and using all ingame features legally to improve yourself in innovative fashion is always great in my eyes, but hypocrisy is just as fantastic too
I doubt it had any real impact on the outcome of the round.

But yes, I imagine it was a case of some subtle words between the alliance and pateam, in which the pateam staff simply said, "Oh how clever," and didn't do anything about something they surely felt had a negative influence on the game. Something only of real use to the party ****ing around with untagged members.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 18:13   #270
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by El-CuRa
a HC as arrogant as keizari.. and I'll take keeping respect from our members over winning a round any time any day
Have I met you? On which basis do you build my "arrogance" on? Reading a couple of forum posts? Talking to Gate? If we asked some other people, they'd tell you a certain influential part of your alliance homes a few of the most arrogant people in the community. To be honest, El-CuRa, I don't take too much interest over respect of members of another alliance, I prefer the respect of the members of my own.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 18:55   #271
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

el-cura u make me laugh... quite hard. you call it "political skill", that what ND is good at and famous for... or is it maybe called fencesitting/not doing any war of their own/attacking noobs. (as you called it ND politic moves in r15, which all they did is avoid as many wars as they could)

it has few to do with politics that 3 alliances out of the top dont want Omen to win... dont praise your political mastermind for it as you just choose another winner which isnt and never will be your alliance , atleast i dont see ND winning any rounds anytime soon with their play style or i mite be wrong

also last thing, you are proud because ND exists 17rounds... was that it? then here is 1 big lol to you, 17rounds and achieved nothing
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I signed up to make sure eX didnt win the round, thanks to your HCs last decision it looks like I succeeded
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Unread 25 May 2006, 19:10   #272
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxMilliaN
el-cura u make me laugh... quite hard. you call it "political skill", that what ND is good at and famous for... or is it maybe called fencesitting/not doing any war of their own/attacking noobs. (as you called it ND politic moves in r15, which all they did is avoid as many wars as they could)
Not an entirely unfair comment - though some people may think ND and Insomnia hitting Omen was starting a war. Just to clear something up for those of us out of the loop, could you list a few of the wars that Omen started this round?
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Unread 25 May 2006, 19:10   #273
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

was ND around for 17 rounds ? i remember them strugglin b4 i quit, and struggling would be a complement... I was very very surprised to see alliances like ROCK and ND still around, and ND doing relatively good. I remember them always considered "bottom of the food chain" alliance. and i really really dont think they started r1. eventho i might be wrong, but I, myself, started out r1 and, hmm, eventho i dont remember anything about it, except something about the Federation, and my GC's name (Black Omega of Purple Nebula) I dont remember ND at all till right before i quit...
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Unread 25 May 2006, 19:14   #274
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
was ND around for 17 rounds ? i remember them strugglin b4 i quit, and struggling would be a complement... I was very very surprised to see alliances like ROCK and ND still around, and ND doing relatively good. I remember them always considered "bottom of the food chain" alliance. and i really really dont think they started r1. eventho i might be wrong, but I, myself, started out r1 and, hmm, eventho i dont remember anything about it, except something about the Federation, and my GC's name (Black Omega of Purple Nebula) I dont remember ND at all till right before i quit...
I can't remember ND from round 1 - but they were definitely around and involved in round 2. I remember defending a Newdawn member vs Concordium just to pay back Concordium for defending a TE member vs Fury. Newdawn and F-Crew were two of the alliances attacking Concordium (the #1 alliance) fairly early in Round 2.

EDIT: ND did disappear as an active alliance for a few rounds before reappearing with a pretty changed memberbase.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 19:20   #275
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
Not an entirely unfair comment - though some people may think ND and Insomnia hitting Omen was starting a war. Just to clear something up for those of us out of the loop, could you list a few of the wars that Omen started this round?
what a silly comment, 1 allie dont start a war vs another allie if they want gain something, it all ends in a roid swapping frency nothing elseand you know it little hiding fencesitting bug there
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Unread 25 May 2006, 19:23   #276
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
i agree with wishie that if exi used the donation thing they would've been hounded. i can't think of even one half-reasonable reason why the PAteam allow it. i mean it's funny really, considering all the 1up players talking about playing pa "the way it was meant to be played" - good job! don't get me wrong, i have nothing against the action itself as it's legal and using all ingame features legally to improve yourself in innovative fashion is always great in my eyes, but hypocrisy is just as fantastic too

(Here I go writing this post for the second time after the houses sockets tripped the power.)

What's wrong with it? Yes, it made us look weaker than we were and directed attention away from us as it was intended to, but it was a massive risk. A coordinated attack on our out of tag planets would have screwed us over pretty badly. Just because other alliances decided that, instead of pushing us when our trousers were down, they'd stare out our hairy arse like perverts doesn't mean the tactic should be invalid.

As for the resources being donated, these were used by scanners. Would people complain if an alliance setup a seperate tag for scanners (as has been done before) and let people join to donate resources? I doubt people would even notice and I know I wouldn't, distorters are the biggest pain in the arse and biggest imbalance in the game (but this is a seperate issue).

*quickly presses enter before his Dad tries to electrocute himself..... again*
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Unread 25 May 2006, 19:33   #277
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Planetarion a WAR game, shouldn’t the ranks be fought over out on the battlefield.
Last couple of rounds has been settled not on the field instead by sneaky tactics/politics rather then by skilled PA players…

These tactics will for sure kill this game because frankly it have gone to far, why bother dedicate your self with all these sleepless nights etc when it doesn’t really matter anymore – Someone have already (prestart) cracked the brilliant idea to use some “small hole” in the rules to make the ordinary players efforts worthless.

HC:s brains should be used on the battlefield not to read the PA rules and then try to find some loopholes and use em to get their alliance higher rank.

These different tactics are more or less bending the rules and will result in forcing the PA owners to write a “law book” that contains more words then PA code itself…

Btw, how honourable is the win when you didn’t fight any real war (in a wargame) instead you won by “hiding” most of the time!? And that goes to both to Asc and 1up?

Many HC:s seems to be here more to fill their own egos then to look after their members interests and that’s really sad…..
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Unread 25 May 2006, 19:37   #278
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
what a silly comment, 1 allie dont start a war vs another allie if they want gain something, it all ends in a roid swapping frency nothing elseand you know it little hiding fencesitting bug there
You truly are one of the rare people who's reputation doesn't do them justice. You have less sense than a tin of baked beans. Have you not noticed how the alliances involved in big wars always tend to do well? Have you not noticed how Angels have never won a round?

*edit* No offence to Angels before you PM me Kj, merely using Angels as an example!
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Unread 25 May 2006, 19:44   #279
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoX
Correct me if I am wrong
I
19. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable;
when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we
are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away;
when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

24. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where
you are not expected.

25. These military devices, leading to victory,
must not be divulged beforehand.


And:


III
6. Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy's
troops without any fighting; he captures their cities
without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom
without lengthy operations in the field.

7. With his forces intact he will dispute the mastery
of the Empire, and thus, without losing a man, his triumph
will be complete. This is the method of attacking by stratagem.


And the best sum up:

7. The general who is skilled in defense hides in the
most secret recesses of the earth; he who is skilled in
attack flashes forth from the topmost heights of heaven.
Thus on the one hand we have ability to protect ourselves;
on the other, a victory that is complete.


Courtesy of Sun Tzu
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Unread 25 May 2006, 19:46   #280
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Oh, and here's another from the old master:

13. By discovering the enemy's dispositions and remaining
invisible ourselves, we can keep our forces concentrated,
while the enemy's must be divided.

I think that about covers it all.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 19:46   #281
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
(Here I go writing this post for the second time after the houses sockets tripped the power.)

What's wrong with it? Yes, it made us look weaker than we were and directed attention away from us as it was intended to, but it was a massive risk. A coordinated attack on our out of tag planets would have screwed us over pretty badly. Just because other alliances decided that, instead of pushing us when our trousers were down, they'd stare out our hairy arse like perverts doesn't mean the tactic should be invalid.

As for the resources being donated, these were used by scanners. Would people complain if an alliance setup a seperate tag for scanners (as has been done before) and let people join to donate resources? I doubt people would even notice and I know I wouldn't, distorters are the biggest pain in the arse and biggest imbalance in the game (but this is a seperate issue).

*quickly presses enter before his Dad tries to electrocute himself..... again*
i don't mind at all about the hiding members thing, i didn't mean that. i thought the whole idea behind that was fantastic and nothing but congratulations for calling out the pathetic nature of pa's alliances these days.

with regards to the donations, it's this
Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
The planet in question will not be asking for donations from 1up as they are no longer in the tag. They will also not being participating in any kind of attacking or defending with 1up, so I fail to see the problem either you or Robban have.
that's the issue to me, is that planet nothing but a support planet then?

if it did indeed do nothing but donate resources all round, which were later used in whatever way you guys wanted, then it was a support planet - albeit one by the rules. and we all remember "our" stance on support planets don't we?

that's what i meant about the hypocrisy

edit: if i've misinterpreted mazz then feel free to clear up my confusion.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 19:47   #282
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoX
Btw, how honourable is the win when you didn’t fight any real war (in a wargame) instead you won by “hiding” most of the time!? And that goes to both to Asc and 1up?

Many HC:s seems to be here more to fill their own egos then to look after their members interests and that’s really sad…..
Alliances are a feature that's only been implemented ingame after players were making them out of game: unfortunately they've never actually been designed. The result of no design effort having been put into the way alliances function is that quite a few aspects of them work in an entirely counter-intuitive way.

From a game-play perspective, alliances are something which Planetarion tolerates rather than encourages. There are usually only two groups of people who benefit from a war between two alliances:

1. Those not involved in it,
2. Zikonians.

Unless/Until the game is amended to take account of this, it is likely that there will be less and less wars each round. Any alliance, irrespective or rank, can gain far more roids/score by doing galaxy attacks rather than being in a war. Unless the war is very one-sided - in which case does it really count as a war at all?

The "secret" of success in Planetarion at an alliance level is reducing risk. For example:

Making a block which is much bigger than your opposition is MUCH better for your alliance than winning a war where the sides are even.

Last round, having small disposable fleets was rewarded more than having large ones which you couldn't afford to lose.

And there's plenty more examples.

I do, however, disagree with your comment that 1up (if we win) will have done so by avoiding the battle-field. If this were why we've won then why aren't other alliances who also haven't been in wars ahead of us? And where's this battle-field which we're supposed to be avoiding?

If we'd tagged up on the last day of the round miles ahead of everyone else then you might have a point. But we didn't - and you don't.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 19:51   #283
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
i don't mind at all about the hiding members thing, i didn't mean that.

with regards to the donations, it's this that's the issue to me, is that planet nothing but a support planet then?

if it did indeed do nothing but donate resources all round, which were later used in whatever way you guys wanted, then it was a support planet - albeit one by the rules. and we all remember "our" stance on support planets don't we?

that's what i meant about the hypocrisy
By that logic, surely booting a member who's worked hard all round just because you've got a bigger recruit is also a support planet?

The support planets issue was always about using extra planets outside the tag to increase your ability to fight a war and give yourself an advantage. If we'd have tagged from the start, the resource issue would probably have been done anyway, just in a different tag. In actuality, the way we used those planets actually made us weaker militarily, not stronger. It gave other alliances a much better chance at taking us down. The deception is what got us where we are. Absolute worst case we are guilty of giving ourselves an unfair disadvantage.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 19:55   #284
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
By that logic, surely booting a member who's worked hard all round just because you've got a bigger recruit is also a support planet?
what? how is a planet that does NOTHING but donate res to the fund similar to a member who works hard all round (i assume he attacks too and isn't just a defencewhore)?
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Unread 25 May 2006, 19:58   #285
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoX
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Planetarion a WAR game, shouldn’t the ranks be fought over out on the battlefield.
Last couple of rounds has been settled not on the field instead by sneaky tactics/politics rather then by skilled PA players…
your definition of skill is wrong.


Quote:
HC:s brains should be used on the battlefield not to read the PA rules and then try to find some loopholes and use em to get their alliance higher rank.
why?


Quote:
Btw, how honourable is the win when you didn’t fight any real war (in a wargame) instead you won by “hiding” most of the time!? And that goes to both to Asc and 1up?
sid addressed this point well earlier, read his post.

Quote:
Many HC:s seems to be here more to fill their own egos then to look after their members interests and that’s really sad…..
who are we talking about here?
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Unread 25 May 2006, 20:00   #286
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

"pathetic nature of pa's alliances these days."
so unless an alliance doesn't exploit a flaw/bug/feature of the game, they're pathetic?
am i the only one still thinking that rounds are won through fighting wars and not through avoiding them?
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Unread 25 May 2006, 20:01   #287
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Maybe that was a bad example. Look at scanners though, they do essentially the same.

And on that point, we should have just made them all scanners, we'd have got better scanner coverage then.

doh.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 20:02   #288
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Let me explain just how screwed up PA team's definition of support planets is. The following scenario was cleared before the round by PA team. Not to 1up - but to a different alliance.

Alliance has 59 members + 1 scanner in tag and a bunch more scanners out of tag.
Alliance regularly rotates the scanners IN the tag tag so they can be donated to for scans.

Because the scanner is IN the tag when the donation is made, everything is legal.

Similarly, an alliance could have:

59 members in tag, 100 donation planets out of tag.
As needed you accept a donation planet into tag - they donate - then kick them ready for next one.

Because the donations all happen while in the tag everyhting's fine - as whilst out of the tag they aren't supporting the alliance in any way.

As I've said before, if there's a blatant case of "support planets" it's out of tag scanners - whether or not they receive donations. Planets which play for an alliance IN the tag MUST be legitimate - otherwise all scanners in the game should just be deleted as they clearly regular take actions which are designed to benefit an alliance rather than themselves.

The support planet rule was designed (using the loosest possible defintion of "designed") to prevent planets cropping up whose sole purpose was to defend other planets of a specific alliance at non-alliance ETAs.

If the argument is that some actions even IN a tag are designed to support an alliance rather than a planet then all scanners need to go for one thing. As do cov-op planets who do anything other than steal resources.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 20:02   #289
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo
"pathetic nature of pa's alliances these days."
so unless an alliance doesn't exploit a flaw/bug/feature of the game, they're pathetic?
am i the only one still thinking that rounds are won through fighting wars and not through avoiding them?
The key to winning a war is knowing which battles to fight, and which to avoid.

A little challenge for you, find a great military general who hasn't said something like this at some point. I bet you can't do it.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 20:04   #290
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
Alliances are a feature that's only been implemented ingame after players were making them out of game: unfortunately they've never actually been designed. The result of no design effort having been put into the way alliances function is that quite a few aspects of them work in an entirely counter-intuitive way.

From a game-play perspective, alliances are something which Planetarion tolerates rather than encourages. There are usually only two groups of people who benefit from a war between two alliances:

1. Those not involved in it,
2. Zikonians.

Unless/Until the game is amended to take account of this, it is likely that there will be less and less wars each round. Any alliance, irrespective or rank, can gain far more roids/score by doing galaxy attacks rather than being in a war. Unless the war is very one-sided - in which case does it really count as a war at all?

The "secret" of success in Planetarion at an alliance level is reducing risk. For example:

Making a block which is much bigger than your opposition is MUCH better for your alliance than winning a war where the sides are even.

Last round, having small disposable fleets was rewarded more than having large ones which you couldn't afford to lose.

And there's plenty more examples.

I do, however, disagree with your comment that 1up (if we win) will have done so by avoiding the battle-field. If this were why we've won then why aren't other alliances who also haven't been in wars ahead of us? And where's this battle-field which we're supposed to be avoiding?

If we'd tagged up on the last day of the round miles ahead of everyone else then you might have a point. But we didn't - and you don't.
Many lines of fine words there.

The problem still stands though, the lack of 100% bullet proof rules that would prevent some to work out tactics that takes away the sense/meaning of this game.
In my mind this game is built to look/act like a war-game that allows us to send out imaginary ships out into space to kill and steel things..
The meaning is not to seek loopholes that take the “war” out of the game!?

I guess you’re here to win and only to win – or are you here to look after your members and their well being to have a fun time playing this war-game.

If that’s the case how fun is it to first pay for a game then “hide” out most of the round?
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Unread 25 May 2006, 20:06   #291
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
The support planets issue was always about using extra planets outside the tag to increase your ability to fight a war and give yourself an advantage. If we'd have tagged from the start, the resource issue would probably have been done anyway, just in a different tag. In actuality, the way we used those planets actually made us weaker militarily, not stronger. It gave other alliances a much better chance at taking us down. The deception is what got us where we are. Absolute worst case we are guilty of giving ourselves an unfair disadvantage.
How long would it have taken for 1up to boot the deadweight and trade in real planets, and get organized? I reckon it was someone around here who said they could have done it all in 2-3 hours, and I bet tagging up would have taken less than 5 minutes.

And, really, you should re-read the EULA on support planets. It's not about "extra planets outside the tag". The PA team is hitting their wise heads together about this as we speak, and I hope we'll get a clarification to the rule on support planets very soon. I asked for a permission to recruit planets that are out of tag 72 hours, collect resources, and visit the tag to donate, and re-do it. It wasn't granted. I should probably ask for a permission to keep donation planets in tag for 72 hours (start round) then splash their resources after protection ends to real planets, and boot the inactives. A valid tactic for next round, perhaps.

While waiting for the PA team to give their comments on the support planets rule on this case, it's quite useless to discuss it. Oh, which makes my post rather vain.

edit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid
59 members in tag, 100 donation planets out of tag.
As needed you accept a donation planet into tag - they donate - then kick them ready for next one.

Because the donations all happen while in the tag everyhting's fine - as whilst out of the tag they aren't supporting the alliance in any way.
I asked for a permission to it, and it was promptly turned down.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 20:08   #292
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

You assume 1up is using the resources to increase its planets. It is not, the resources go purely to scanners. If this was done in a seperate tag, with scanners in a seperate tag, you wouldn't give a damn, yet the results would be exactly the same.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 20:11   #293
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoX
If that’s the case how fun is it to first pay for a game then “hide” out most of the round?
Immensely fun.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 20:13   #294
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

picking our battles was a luxury we did not have this round. as they were enforced on us by ND even before round started with their "i won't let nub alliance win" policy.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 20:13   #295
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo
"pathetic nature of pa's alliances these days."
so unless an alliance doesn't exploit a flaw/bug/feature of the game, they're pathetic?
am i the only one still thinking that rounds are won through fighting wars and not through avoiding them?
no, your alliance is pathetic because no matter what you or anyone else have to say, you did not attack 1up the whole ****ing round. not even one night? honest to god, that's just ridiculous, can anyone please think of a round where 1up since they've existed, has not been in the running for the round? what exactly did you expect? this whole saga just made me frankly laugh out loud at the utter shitness of it all. this is also the main reason i respect exilition - they always had the guts to chase after 1up, with a block or not, atleast they did it. why on earth you just didn't try to get rid of 1up as quick as possible and then make a sound lead, when you've seen it's possible r13/15, i really don't know.

Sid: i completely agree.

but the point of it all was not that there was anything illegitimate or dishonourable about it - but that it was rather hypocritical for the hordes of your members to whine about ascendancy's win last round, as there was absolutely nothing illegitimate or dishonourable about that either.
(by the way what alliance were you talking about in that example?)

one more question, is the pa-team just going to leave it like this after this round? i assume this will be rectified or what?
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Unread 25 May 2006, 20:13   #296
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

On a allaince level it think 1UP used thier head by hiding thier members and looking like a weak target that looked like no threat

on a personal note i think this is ANOTHER rd that has been ruined by another flaw / lack of rules that would have stopped this farse, i feel sorry for those allies who were fighting for the #1 spot
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Unread 25 May 2006, 20:19   #297
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOL
On a allaince level it think 1UP used thier head by hiding thier members and looking like a weak target that looked like no threat
The problem with this statement is that there has been a very accurate 1up coord list available for some time. We have had members out of tag but certain alliances knew who they all were and chose to eat further down the galaxy food chain.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 20:22   #298
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOL
on a personal note i think this is ANOTHER rd that has been ruined by another flaw / lack of rules that would have stopped this farse, i feel sorry for those allies who were fighting for the #1 spot
I disagree. I don't think it's down to a lack of rules at all. If you look at the whole of PA's history, there has been a constant power struggle since p2p was introduced between PA Team and alliances. PA Team has been trying to regulate and control alliances through rules and tweaks (the most obvious examples being bringing them in-game so they could restrict the size of alliances, XP, random galaxies etc.). This has caused huge detriment to the game over the years as alliances resist, and without meaning any offence to PA Team, alliances have always had far more strength and organisation than PA Team, hence why alliances are constantly able to find ways to break out of the mould PA Team tries to force them into. Every time they do, PA Team plug the hole to try and direct alliances to work in the way they want them to, and alliances will find another way to work the way they naturally do.

The problem is, PA Team have an idealistic idea of how alliances should work without fully understanding them, and have constantly waged a power struggle to restrict alliances in order to try and "right the wrongs" of the community rather than work with alliances to achieve this. It's a historic and subtle problem in the background, but I personally feel this is where the real battle in PA is fought (and it's a point I've been arguing with PA Team about since r5/6 without really achieving anything).

[edited for clarity]
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Unread 25 May 2006, 20:27   #299
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Have I met you? On which basis do you build my "arrogance" on? Reading a couple of forum posts? Talking to Gate? If we asked some other people, they'd tell you a certain influential part of your alliance homes a few of the most arrogant people in the community. To be honest, El-CuRa, I don't take too much interest over respect of members of another alliance, I prefer the respect of the members of my own.
I contacted you earlier in the round about an ex-ND member. To which you reacted pretty arrogant. That and the logs I've seen throughout the round has made me to conclude you are just an arrogant person. Maybe you don't care about what other alliances think about you. But in that case you should have other people deal with AD/contacting other alliances and keep yourself on the background.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxMilliaN
el-cura u make me laugh... quite hard. you call it "political skill", that what ND is good at and famous for... or is it maybe called fencesitting/not doing any war of their own/attacking noobs. (as you called it ND politic moves in r15, which all they did is avoid as many wars as they could)

it has few to do with politics that 3 alliances out of the top dont want Omen to win... dont praise your political mastermind for it as you just choose another winner which isnt and never will be your alliance , atleast i dont see ND winning any rounds anytime soon with their play style or i mite be wrong

also last thing, you are proud because ND exists 17rounds... was that it? then here is 1 big lol to you, 17rounds and achieved nothing
Wow. Did you just totally and utterly ignore this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by El-CuRa
(not saying ND did a very good job of it this round)
?

I guess so.

As to the achieved nothing part, tell that to the members of NewDawn, the members that still hang around our private channel long after they quit the game and members that take a break from the game some rounds and always come back to play with NewDawn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
was ND around for 17 rounds ? i remember them strugglin b4 i quit, and struggling would be a complement... I was very very surprised to see alliances like ROCK and ND still around, and ND doing relatively good. I remember them always considered "bottom of the food chain" alliance. and i really really dont think they started r1. eventho i might be wrong, but I, myself, started out r1 and, hmm, eventho i dont remember anything about it, except something about the Federation, and my GC's name (Black Omega of Purple Nebula) I dont remember ND at all till right before i quit...
yes we were, founded rnd 1 by sith stew and stez
I'm proud to say we haven't always had the drama top alliances have, and I'm one of the members of ND that liked PA better when we were floating around rank 10 instead of competing for the top 3 spots and having to deal with arrogant people like keizari
In round 3 (I think) we did have some troubles because of avhienda, but after that I can't recall any "struggling"
but oh well
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Last edited by cura; 25 May 2006 at 20:35.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 20:30   #300
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
I disagree. I don't think it's down to a lack of rules at all. If you look at the whole of PA's history, there has been a constant power struggle since p2p was introduced between PA Team and alliances. PA Team has been trying to regulate and control alliances through rules and tweaks (the most obvious examples being bringing them in-game so they could restrict the size of alliances, XP, random galaxies etc.). This has caused huge detriment to the game over the years as alliances resist, and without meaning any offence to PA Team, alliances have always had far more strength and organisation than PA Team, hence why alliances are constantly able to find ways to break out of the mould PA Team tries to force them into . Every time they do, PA Team plug the hole to try and direct alliances to work in the way they want them to, and alliances will find another way to work the way they naturally do.

The problem is, PA Team have an idealistic idea of how alliances should work without fully understanding them, and have constantly waged a power struggle to restrict alliances in order to try and "right the wrongs" of the community rather than work with alliances to achieve this. It's a historic and subtle problem in the background, but I personally feel this is where the real battle in PA is fought (and it's a point I've been arguing with PA Team about since r5/6 without really achieving anything).

[edited for clarity]

ye so thier needs to be rules in place to stop this happening in the future,basically your saying that the pa team didnt think about what 1up were doing and you did so they didnt have any rule / feature to stop you from doing this

dont get me wrong im not saying 1up cheated or this is your fault,all im saying is thier should have been something implimented to stop this happening in the first place
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