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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 15:55   #101
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I disagree. XP has ensured that fewer players give up after crashing their fleet because they still have something to play for. This is very different from pre-r10 PA.
I would really like to see the player that goes "Hey I just bashed my entire fleet and got roided back to 63 roids but you know what? Bllleeeeedin helll mate I’ll keep playing as I have this neat void xp score that give me a top 700 rank instead of top 1000."

I for one don’t think he exists.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 15:56   #102
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin1955
You don't post things where everyone can see it if you are hiding what you are doing.
Appocco doesn't have credibilty with me anymore, not that he'll care, but the greater community is speaking out and he's not listening to them now, and NOTICE the last rounds XP whores and one certain BASHING allaince all speaking in favour of this untested change.
Tells you something.
We are wasting our time here.
PA crew has spoken, you don't really have a say.
In my eyes, anyone who implies nefarious intentions on the part of PA-Team loses all credibility.

Besides, I don't see a greater community, not that one would force me to reconsider my opinion. I've posted in this very thread that the community is frequently wrong, and why it may be better to feed off the cache of experienced posters who literally have "been there and done that".

Last round's XP whores who were part of Ascendancy have already posted that it would be near-impossible for them to succeed in the same way again. As for a BASHING alliance, name names or shut up. I have no idea what you're going on about.

Suggesting that no-one has a say is foolish because it isn't true. Everyone has a say. However, more credit is probably given to some posts than others.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 15:57   #103
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I disagree. XP has ensured that fewer players give up after crashing their fleet because they still have something to play for. This is very different from pre-r10 PA.
XP is an illusion to people who don't understand it, and a way for experienced players to gain more score than they need.

Don't say people still have something to play for. They don't have anything to play with if they crash their fleet.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 15:59   #104
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I disagree. XP has ensured that fewer players give up after crashing their fleet because they still have something to play for. This is very different from pre-r10 PA.
I think it's more to do with the established feel to the community specifically with reference to alliances. Although part of this is due to xp itself so I suppose I would have to retract my statement a little bit. I wasn't really thinking and was mostly just contradicting the idea that xp has diminished the playerbase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteInMetz
And since when was it very unusual that value alliances battle each other out?
It happens every round, it will happen this round, hence XP will again be very attractive.
If people conducted their actions more in line with the principles of enlightened self interest it might not be.

Quote:
AND "unless the xp-whores formed alliances" well wtf do you think Ascendency is? Yeah XP is an XPloit and yes an XPloit allaince walked off with last round, and by the posts I read here they intend to do the same thing again, which you admit they still could.
No. I mean 300 xp planets would have to band together and attack one specific alliance to take it down. This is in way comparable to what ascendancy did last round except both involve launching ships.

Quote:
XP doesn't do what it was supposed to do except it does make it possible to do nothing play a little and win the game while others work hard at playing a good round. There aren't any new n00b players getting turned off PA.
But there are a lot of solid long time pa players getting ready to pull the plug and likely a lot more that already did.
XP players will have to put in as much effort next round as value players in order to win. Almost certainly more. Stop saying it's about effort. You just don't like the fact people can win without defence.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:03   #105
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
I would really like to see the player that goes "Hey I just bashed my entire fleet and got roided back to 63 roids but you know what? Bllleeeeedin helll mate I’ll keep playing as I have this neat void xp score that give me a top 700 rank instead of top 1000."

I for one don’t think he exists.
Since when have you been in the situation where you might even have to think about something like this? I know that XP has kept people playing. I've seen my own alliance members keep playing because of their XP and one told me that in the old days he would have given up, but he doesn't have to anymore. That gets a from me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
XP is an illusion to people who don't understand it, and a way for experienced players to gain more score than they need.

Don't say people still have something to play for. They don't have anything to play with if they crash their fleet.
Education, education, education. People who don't understand XP don't understand what is a core concept of the game, because it's a part of score alongside value. F-Crew and other training alliances teach people how XP works. Newbies who have decent galmates will be taught about XP. As for gaining more score than you need......what? How can you have too much score?

And refer to my reply to Treveler regarding people still having something to play for.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:08   #106
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
You seriously underestimate how hard it was last round to defend. Even if you think you don't, you do. In fact, it was impossible and a lot of people in 1up had to give up their chance of a high rank halfway through the round when strategies were changed to allow all the def to be pooled where the roids were. That was a bitter pill for many to swallow. Next round I think it will be harder. How do you suggest 1up motivates it's members when none of them believes it's possible? Belief is important, appearances are important. Appoco introduced a change without any consultation or even explanation. That is wrong. It sends the wrong message and it spits in the face of every player who tested the old formula.
I think it was virtually impossible to defend last round. Maybe it was literally impossible and they removed the "defend" option from the game, christ knows I didn't use it. Next round it will be about the same. Defence will be easier, but there will be more attacking fleets flying around. The difference will be that the same amount of effort as last round will win you next round. After that the game will revert.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:10   #107
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Since when have you been in the situation where you might even have to think about something like this? I know that XP has kept people playing. I've seen my own alliance members keep playing because of their XP and one told me that in the old days he would have given up, but he doesn't have to anymore. That gets a from me.
So he had no roids and no ships but a slightly higher rank than he normally would have and that kept him motivated to play? Can you ask him to post here please as I just don’t take your word for it?

XP keeps xp-whores playing, not value players and it certainly don’t keep newbies who has no understanding of what xp is.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:11   #108
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
It was my idea to change it.
I have to say, "surprised" was the least of my feelings when I read this thread.
The only issue I can see with it is that it doesn't penalise stupid xp whores (i.e. the ones that just let all their ships die). I'm sure adding that factor on would have people dancing in the streets in joy.
Yes, those who play for XP get more XP than those who play for value. I can't work out what's quite wrong with that though?
They're playing for XP. They're MEANT TO.

What the hell are you thinking?

The thing you did wrong in the first place is introducing bloody xp to make the game more competetive.

I know you mean no harm, but unless you dont stop introducing new formulas you come up with by yourself I am sincerely ****ing off from here and Im taking my possè with me.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:12   #109
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
XP keeps xp-whores playing, not value players and it certainly don’t keep newbies who has no understanding of what xp is.
While xp might not keep them playing the fact they still have x amount of score left is a motivating factor.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:13   #110
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Reading all these more or less constructive posts, I can only say that I agree to all of them
What wee actually need is a formula for loosing XP when you lose roids.
Then people must defend their roids to keep their XP, and game suddenly are open to anybody to win.

Example:
You got 30000 XP and 500 roids.
Each roid is "worth" (30000/500) XP = 60 XP
Somebody attacks you and cap 25% = 125 roids
You loose (125*60) XP = 7500 XP
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:16   #111
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
So he had no roids and no ships but a slightly higher rank than he normally would have and that kept him motivated to play? Can you ask him to post here please as I just don’t take your word for it?

XP keeps xp-whores playing, not value players and it certainly don’t keep newbies who has no understanding of what xp is.
I don't need to prove my own anecdotes. Spend some time outside the 'elite' alliances and then perhaps you'll see these players for yourself. Quoting Wakey a few posts up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakey
Actually I believe its played its fair share in stabilising the playerbase, infact I'll go as far as saying that I know its played its part as ive seen it first hand.

As often happens on this forum issues falling outside the realms of the top 20% of players/alliances gets ignored but pre PAX one of the biggest problems was the rate the lower down players were quitting. If more people including PAteam had looked into why they were leaving in their droves they would have found out it was due largely to the fact they simply couldnt find a foothold in the game or spent all round only to suddenly lose all their acheivments as they got caught out as they werent in a top alliance or galaxy.

Now in the latter rounds suddenly the shrinking player base became an issue for the kind of players whom generally post on the forums and such like. The hardcore players were quitting because the game had too few targets to support the hardcore players and any half decent target was quickly bashed into the ground.

With PAX things like XP have stablised the lower end of the game, kept people hanging around and coming back which inturn has stablised the top of the game somewhat. PA is like a house, you need to ensure good foundations to support the rest of the building else it callapses and PAX features like XP put these foundations in place.
And then, because I feel like a Wakey-length post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
While xp might not keep them playing the fact they still have x amount of score left is a motivating factor.
Exactly. It's not about the actual score loss, it's % score loss. If you lose 15% of your score instead of 60% then you're far more likely to keep playing. You can rebuild that fleet within a few days and get back to roiding - and you couldn't do this without some gal donations in pre-pax rounds.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:18   #112
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
XP is an illusion to people who don't understand it, and a way for experienced players to gain more score than they need.

Don't say people still have something to play for. They don't have anything to play with if they crash their fleet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
I would really like to see the player that goes "Hey I just bashed my entire fleet and got roided back to 63 roids but you know what? Bllleeeeedin helll mate I’ll keep playing as I have this neat void xp score that give me a top 700 rank instead of top 1000."

I for one don’t think he exists.
When both of you have run an alliance that puts a substantial focus on helping players at the lower end of the game under BOTH the Old PA and PAX systems then you are more than welcome to come and argue that XP doesnt keep players around after substantial losses. Until then I think your find I know better than either of you about the effects of XP on such players as Ive seen it FIRST HAND.

Its a kick in the teeth to find yourself losing your fleet and your roids but the straw that would normally break the camels back was the ranking loss. It would send you to the bottom 10% of the universe and basically send the message that anything you had acheived to that point was worthless. It gave little incentive to carry on, XP means your acheivemnets are still rewarded and you can still acheive a resonable rank which gives you a reason to rebuild and an end goal.

And yes not everyone is hooked by the XP factor and some do still quit but its fewer of them than before and most now return for the next round which rarely happened before after losing everything
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:26   #113
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin1955
So in fact you after all the rest of what you have to say make 2 good points. XP isn't helping expand or keep the player base, we the players are doing that. But hey son't listen to us when we say XP sucks the big knob.
You need to refer to what those '2 good points' are to communicate yourself better.

XP is keeping the player-base, see my above post with references.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin1955
AND "unless the xp-whores formed alliances" well wtf do you think Ascendency is? Yeah XP is an XPloit and yes an XPloit allaince walked off with last round, and by the posts I read here they intend to do the same thing again, which you admit they still could.
They admitted that they still could, but said that it would take the dedication of a value-orientated approach to do so.

XP is not an exploit. Just check the manual:

Quote:
Originally Posted by manual
Score
Score is derived from the XP field, and also the value field.

Score = xp*50 + value
Manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin1955
XP doesn't do what it was supposed to do except it does make it possible to do nothing play a little and win the game while others work hard at playing a good round. There aren't any new n00b players getting turned off PA.
That was the error of Round 16. Solved by this new XP formula of Appocomaster's, which eliminated the "while you were trying, we were sleeping" approach that Ascendancy pioneered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin1955
But there are a lot of solid long time pa players getting ready to pull the plug and likely a lot more that already did.
I'm unsure how you speak for these people or why you should be able to. Please let us know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin1955
Ask the people with 6 10 or 23 waves how much they love what PA crew has done with XP.
I had 18 waves one day in Round 16. I got over it. I had those roids back within 4 days.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:35   #114
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

The point about XP is that without it you'ld be nowhere if your planet got wrecked and you probably threw away £5 or whatever it is to get bashed to the ground and be out of the game in week 4.

XP gives a platform for wrecked players to build from and allows them a means of rising up the rankings. It is the 'bonus' element of being encouraged to attack bigger planets that encourages the best players who unfortunately get wrecked to move their way back up the ranking and show their true ability. The point is that if it is difficult to get roids through stats it will be difficult to get XP. If the formula further limits XP play (which it certainly does) it will be a very tough challenge to play for XP as you go further up the chain.

To illustrate: to succeed when you signed up midround you had to basically land in a top 10 galaxy and get mass donated a fleet from your gal mates. With XP, you can build up your planet yourself from anywhere and you don't need a big alliance to do this - how something that allows new players to pick up and play the game from anywhere as well as give them a safety blanket if they get killed is considered a bad thing is beyond me.

While I don't think the XP strategy is ridiculous, it's obvious that the terran suiciding ships tactic clearly was and the sheer ease it was to get xp via terran armor. But to move on, the abolition of XP would be moronic - the burden placed on all players would be stupidly excessive and would exclude all but the most dedicated players. It'd be more of an achievement to win, but only if you enjoy having your eyes ripped out with a spoon, if you really care to be that active. You'll have bloody predictable rounds whereby the best alliance just roids ahead, holds fleet and simply kills everyone. To beat such alliances requires truly titanic efforts. People bleat about bashing, but they seem to have short memories of how things were before PAX.

Having played at all levels intermittently since 2000, I don't see how XP is bad, as long as it is limited so it's not just a 'gimmie' to win the game.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:35   #115
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furball
Last round's XP whores who were part of Ascendancy have already posted that it would be near-impossible for them to succeed in the same way again.
Has it occured to you they may be wrong? Or even dissembling as best suits themselves? I certainly believe a number of these posters are being convenient with the full truth.

Quote:
Since when have you been in the situation where you might even have to think about something like this? I know that XP has kept people playing. I've seen my own alliance members keep playing because of their XP and one told me that in the old days he would have given up, but he doesn't have to anymore. That gets a from me.
What then when a value player crashes halfway through this round? He will have 0 xp and no fall back plan.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:48   #116
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Has it occured to you they may be wrong? Or even dissembling as best suits themselves?
The XP formula that was replaced was suggested by one Ascendancy HC and supported by both of us.

The new formula permits what I found to be the dullest possible XP play, the type which is basically 'mutual roiding' of other XP players. The problem is that while last round this meant 10 xp per roid when landing on the other XP player, it now means 5 xp per roid. This means that value players will have an easier time passing the XP players. I don't think it's impossible to play for XP under the new formula, I just don't think it's as beneficial.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:49   #117
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Has it occured to you they may be wrong? Or even dissembling as best suits themselves? I certainly believe a number of these posters are being convenient with the full truth.
I'm not a mathematician and haven't analysed the new XP formula myself. I know the limit of my own abilities. However, it has been praised as being beneficial to the game by people I respect. I don't believe that they are lying, based on my judgement of their characters.

If they're wrong, they're wrong. Equally, you may be wrong. Recognise this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
What then when a value player crashes halfway through this round? He will have 0 xp and no fall back plan.
And that's the difficulty of playing value. However, value players usually have some XP, it just makes up less of their score in comparison to value.

Most value players don't concentrate their value in a few ships. Those players that do usually reap better rewards from XP than their value (because they can't hold onto their roids). If you have a fleet which targets all 6 classes, you're a value player. Who do you know that sends their entire fleet out on attack? Seen many Cath players attack with Scarabs?
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:49   #118
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I don't need to prove my own anecdotes. Spend some time outside the 'elite' alliances and then perhaps you'll see these players for yourself.
I expected such an answer like that from you. My equally cunning reply is like this: Xp ruins this game and force players in "elite" alliances to quit as this game sucks. They don’t like this game and pa will die a horribly death. It is true because I say it is.



Quote:
Exactly. It's not about the actual score loss, it's % score loss. If you lose 15% of your score instead of 60% then you're far more likely to keep playing. You can rebuild that fleet within a few days and get back to roiding - and you couldn't do this without some gal donations in pre-pax rounds.
Are you saying its easier to rebuild your fleet and get back to roiding because of xp?

Quote:
When both of you have run an alliance that puts a substantial focus on helping players at the lower end of the game under BOTH the Old PA and PAX systems then you are more than welcome to come and argue that XP doesnt keep players around after substantial losses. Until then I think your find I know better than either of you about the effects of XP on such players as Ive seen it FIRST HAND.
Hehe, the lord almighty. You don’t need to have been a horse to become a good jockey and you don’t need 10 rounds of lower ally experience to have contact with new/returning players. I find several of them in my gal every round. I have yet to hear one of them claiming to keep playing because of XP. In fact most if not all has no clue what xp is before we tell them, and when we do 90% of them find it to complicated to bother figuring out how to utilise it.

They want roids and big fleets so they can roid others with roids and big fleets. And if they lose those roids and fleets I would say the blow is equally big today as it used to be back in the days as they still end up with no roids and no fleet. Strange huh?

As it is now I would say xp does far more bad then good for PA overall.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:50   #119
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Has it occured to you they may be wrong? Or even dissembling as best suits themselves? I certainly believe a number of these posters are being convenient with the full truth..
The same can be said for those arguing the other side of things though. Some of the most vocal people against this change are people whom openly admit that Value is how they play and the way they feel everyone should play and thus have an agenda themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
What then when a value player crashes halfway through this round? He will have 0 xp and no fall back plan
They have nothing but thats of their own doing. XP is harder to get the more value you have and if you neglect to protect some of your score early on when you have the chance to gain some still then its their own choice and they have to put up with the consequences.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:52   #120
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokken
Having played at all levels intermittently since 2000, I don't see how XP is bad, as long as it is limited so it's not just a 'gimmie' to win the game.
I strongly agree with this statement. It is unfortunate then, that the only visible effort to ever balance xp was discarded before it was ever tried.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 17:03   #121
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furball
I'm not a mathematician and haven't analysed the new XP formula myself. I know the limit of my own abilities. However, it has been praised as being beneficial to the game by people I respect. I don't believe that they are lying, based on my judgement of their characters.

If they're wrong, they're wrong. Equally, you may be wrong. Recognise this.
This is a travesty of a post on your part. I respect these people too. I appreciate their intelligence and respective abilities within the game. But at least I looked at this for myself. I'm not a mathematician either, but I have pages of doodles and graphs. I've spent hours pouring over the details and ascertaining the new strategies to use going forward. And you presume to tell me I may be wrong, you who hasn't even taken the briefest look at what this may mean. I know God-Botherers with more sense than that.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 17:09   #122
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
They have nothing but thats of their own doing. XP is harder to get the more value you have and if you neglect to protect some of your score early on when you have the chance to gain some still then its their own choice and they have to put up with the consequences.
EXACTLY

People are now in the position that if they don't play for xp early they are well and truly ****ed. This means 0 def fleets early. Are these supposed to magically appear later to allow value play or something?
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 17:20   #123
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
EXACTLY

People are now in the position that if they don't play for xp early they are well and truly ****ed. This means 0 def fleets early. Are these supposed to magically appear later to allow value play or something?
This is a silly argument. Value players are meant to be able to maximise their xp while they play for value. That is what good value playing is about. Early on, it is easy for players of any style to get XP of similar quantities.

I for one find it bizarre as to why the new formula hasn't been tested. Even if the admins are happy with it, testing might bring something to light they haven't thought of. It just seems competent and good pr to do so.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 17:24   #124
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

so what is it that you want exactly achilles?
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 17:27   #125
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokken
This is a silly argument. Value players are meant to be able to maximise their xp while they play for value. That is what good value playing is about. Early on, it is easy for players of any style to get XP of similar quantities.
Have you fully examined the formula? If you are trying to maximise your value you can get a maximum of about 5 xp/roid early on with this dropping to 2 xp/roid very, very quickly. This is completely unlike last round, where clever value play could indeed result in decent xp gains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome`
so what is it that you want exactly achilles?
For value play to still be perceivably playable basically. The formula originally envisioned by your HC was fine. It was, at least, agreeable. Failing that I guess I'll take a refund of my credit, I can give it to someone who might still enjoy playing.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 17:30   #126
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
When both of you have run an alliance that puts a substantial focus on helping players at the lower end of the game under BOTH the Old PA and PAX systems then you are more than welcome to come and argue that XP doesnt keep players around after substantial losses. Until then I think your find I know better than either of you about the effects of XP on such players as Ive seen it FIRST HAND.
Newsflash: You don't need to HC to meet new players!

While I haven't run anything pre-PaX, I certainly have given lots of new players to the game a home and a helping hand - as much as I could offer - and seen FIRST HAND (yes omg you aren't the only one) the odd fleet crash. Yes, it happens to the best of players and there isn't alot you can do about it from an HC position. However, I've never seen a member of a galaxy or alliance I was in decide whether or not to continue with a round, or the game, based on how much XP they have.

Pre or post-PaX, value has always been the factor to power and thats what most people care about. Why on earth would people give a **** about how much "blank" score they have unless it gives them 15 seconds of fame in the t100? Most of the people I play alongside or against only have to worry about who they can annihilate and who can annihilate them.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 17:40   #127
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Have you fully examined the formula? If you are trying to maximise your value you can get a maximum of about 5 xp/roid early on with this dropping to 2 xp/roid very, very quickly. This is completely unlike last round, where clever value play could indeed result in decent xp gains.

For value play to still be perceivably playable basically. The formula originally envisioned by your HC was fine. It was, at least, agreeable. Failing that I guess I'll take a refund of my credit, I can give it to someone who might still enjoy playing.
in that case, i'm struggling to see what was wrong with the round 16 formula and that it was the stats that were at the core of the problem, yet people in the majority believe it is more than "stats" so I've just ignored it and got along with it as it doesn't really matter that much.

This new formula (combined with stats) makes XP play a lot more difficult. None of us can say how this formula turns out, but I don't see how it will make value or xp play unreasonably impossible.

As for the "i want a refund as i didn't get my way" argument. It's pretty poor, I spent last round banging on like nothing else about support planets and how they should be dealt with and we ended up with a pretty open, reasonable debate. Here we've got people stamping on their feet demanding their way or the highway.

I don't see anything wrong with the new formula, provided it gets some testing.

As for my HC, I don't have any, I've quit playing for the time being, I just didn't tell anyone.

Quote:
Pre or post-PaX, value has always been the factor to power and thats what most people care about. Why on earth would people give a **** about how much "blank" score they have unless it gives them 15 seconds of fame in the t100? Most of the people I play alongside or against only have to worry about who they can annihilate and who can annihilate them
You don't need lots of fleet to kill stacks of ships, only the right one.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 17:41   #128
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

To hopefully move further to settling the discussion about the new formula:

YES, it reduces the amount of XP capped
YES, its simpler than before
NO, this formula will not decide the success of XP whoring (the stats will)
NO, Apocco shouldn't have implemented it without public testing/discussion

It doesn't look like its changing any time soon, so I guess we'll have to live with it. At the end of the day, we had to adapt to Races, solo targetting, XP, and everything else, and this is just one more of those things.

I can only say I hope we won't see any more updates without some public consent.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 17:50   #129
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
For value play to still be perceivably playable basically. The formula originally envisioned by your HC was fine. It was, at least, agreeable. Failing that I guess I'll take a refund of my credit, I can give it to someone who might still enjoy playing.
if you are in a committed alliance of value players, value is really quite clearly the most profitable way to play this round, just like it was r14 & r11 too (and to a slightly lower extent, r12 too)

of course whether the profit is worth the commitment or not, is an entirely different question.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 17:53   #130
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokken
As for the "i want a refund as i didn't get my way" argument. It's pretty poor
It was poor to accept my money and then fundamentally change the scoring system prior to tickstart with 0 consultation.

I have now seen multiple logs from Appoco privately refuting what I'm saying, but not 1 single reponse to me in this thread. Is it that I haven't posted in here enough or something?

Or is it that he hopes I'll go away and he won't have to give answers for a formula I don't think he can justify beyond "I think it's better"?
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 18:10   #131
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

its pretty easy

stats become a lot attack based
value you can lose
XP u cant

next round will decide what is better xp and value.
for me its pretty unclear which way is better. PA Team hardly managed to balance the race stats (which aint easy), not sure if they can balance value and xp
if it doesnt work well we have to get rid either of the value or the XP ppl else it will lead in a lottery and ppl giving up
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 18:17   #132
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjor
PA Team hardly managed to balance the race stats (which aint easy)
Race stats might be very well balanced before round start, but when people sign up, the numbers of each race will help a lot in making the stats "unbalanced" (or at least look unbalanced).
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 18:18   #133
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Have you fully examined the formula? If you are trying to maximise your value you can get a maximum of about 5 xp/roid early on with this dropping to 2 xp/roid very, very quickly. This is completely unlike last round, where clever value play could indeed result in decent xp gains.Have you fully examined the formula?
If you are an xp player and you play like JBG did last round, then there comes a moment when you are in the top100 and the planets you are able to attack get to a point when they are 1/4th of your score, and then you are f-cked. becouse this gives you 2.5XP per roid, so if you have a good day and cap 600 roids, you get a whopping 2.5*600*50= 75k score. This means that if you only get 75k score from that attack you cant loose your fleet, becouse then you didnt gain any score at all that day.

Then we have the value players, and the good value players have like 2k roids. Giving them 2000*250*24 (ty jer and jester) 120k value a day, and ofc the occasional XP that usually will be around (5*0.75*0.75)*250roids*50=35k score.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 18:22   #134
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hude
Still, this formula makes it far too easy to go up in the ranks as a xp whore if you are not in the top yet.

In any case, this doesn't remove the problem that xp whoring still is a viable tactic. You can do pretty good suiciding your fleet and ignoring defence. Not exactly the way I want to see this game going.
I'm going to change my words a bit here. XP won't be as problematic on the top ranks as before. This will however enable gaining ranks fast when on lower ranks or starting late. Suiciding your fleet will be short sighted if you intend to keep up on gaining those higher ranks.

I still dislike the idea that someone might suicide on you to get a quick boost in his score which is why liked the "remaining fleet value" factor in the bravery factor. But the current formula introduced is going to make it very hard to win by xp only. (as proven by MegaNova et al)
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 18:35   #135
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Yes, those who play for XP get more XP than those who play for value. I can't work out what's quite wrong with that though?
They're playing for XP. They're MEANT TO.
This is addressed by the fact that XP whoring makes it impossible for a large amount of the universe to attack you and impossible for you to lose score. If you think the balance should be that people can gain the same score playing for XP as players can playing for value then you need to:

a) Remove the bash limit.

b) Introduce some way of destroying XP (covert ops I'd guess, if you need some fancy way of making the covert op fit into the game with an explanation of what it is, call it "Timmy Mallet causing amnesia" or similar).

By the way, I like the whole idea behind changing things people have said they likes, gives me that warm fuzzy feeling inside that convinces me this is definitely still PA.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 18:41   #136
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

It's not just about the Top100 planets, it's annoying that you guys focus so much on that. It's also about the 400 planets below them. The alliance members who will defend the position of those above them with defensive fleets. If someone can explain to me why a rank 300-400 planet or lower would want a def ship under this system then I will retract my criticism.

Otherwise we have 80% of the game 3 fleeting the best score targets they can. This leaves value planets trying to def and attack with 1/4 the slots. It just doesn't work. It was the same last round by midpoint, the players for whom it was too late to play for value went XP to salvage what they could. When the same happens here the value planets will face huge incomings and won't be able to maintain their roids.

Furthermore, what happens if 2 alliances go to war now? Value attrition in this new universe is an unmitigated disaster. It's turning into a roidrace with xp players just farming one another by rote and a handful of well napped value players up in front. I want to play a team game, not this.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 18:47   #137
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

What about a bash limit to score also if the value bash limit is unchanged. Then a High scoring low value planet cannot just suicide into a value planet with low score. Fair is Fair right? Still not happy with this change
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 18:48   #138
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=190519
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 18:55   #139
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
i dont really know what you want with that post, even value player needs xp to compete in the race for top whatever.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 19:18   #140
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I disagree. XP has ensured that fewer players give up after crashing their fleet because they still have something to play for. This is very different from pre-r10 PA.

Retards crash thier fleets.

They don't deserve to do well. But XP rewards that, so you can be a part time pa player, crash your fleet and still have a nice score and be no value to the rest of the players. How nice.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 19:18   #141
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

I see the difference in XP from R16

instead of 20xp per roid xp players get 10xp per roid, which seems good.

Still a xp player in an alliance who 3 fleet attacks and never sends def gets

3 x 200 roids x 10xp per roid (= 6000)

While a value player in an alliance with 1 fleet grounded to defend other value players will get

2 x 200 roids x 5xp per roid (= 2000)

Still XP players will get 3x as much score per day.

So basically it still pays off to:
- built a pure attack fleet,
- send NO def to alliance mates,
- Attack with 3 fleets,
- get roided back to less than 100 roids to maintain low value,
- play solo and not get involved in playing with your galaxy

Sounds like a great round to me :/
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 19:27   #142
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

I've said almost all I have to say on this issue and so I'll make this my final post on the matter.

I am most frustrated that despite posting at length and in detail Appoco did not feel the need to answer even one of my posts. And, while I appreciate the general explanation it was a very long time coming and it doesn't go even nearly far enough.

Primarily, I see no forecasts of how xp play will compare with value play at the middle levels. Not everyone plays for a Top100 planet, nor every alliance for #1 but it is these people who will form the shape of the game. The fact remains that anyone has yet to comment meaningfully on this apart from myself or JBG.

Anyone who believes all alliance defence comes from their planets in the Top 100 needs a reality check. Maybe the problem is that this is all being done and discussed by people who didn't face that problem last round? In any case, all the opinions are on record, time will tell.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 19:39   #143
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
It's not just about the Top100 planets, it's annoying that you guys focus so much on that. It's also about the 400 planets below them. The alliance members who will defend the position of those above them with defensive fleets. If someone can explain to me why a rank 300-400 planet or lower would want a def ship under this system then I will retract my criticism.
I've been thinking about this for the last couple of hours walking around with nothing to do and I think you're wrong. I think this rather bizzarely actually leads to what I proposed with diminishing xp returns inside value ranges. Once a certain percentage of your total score is made up in xp it's going to become extraordinarily difficult to keep gaining any amount of score. I'm going to go have dinner and then I might try explaining myself better
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 19:47   #144
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin1955
Retards crash thier fleets.

They don't deserve to do well. But XP rewards that, so you can be a part time pa player, crash your fleet and still have a nice score and be no value to the rest of the players. How nice.
Oversleeping normal people who by any chance might loose their inet access are retards, or if you send a fake fleet and they cant cover it, so they send fake def and kill you, still retard? I guess that makes you abnormal then
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 20:32   #145
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I've been thinking about this for the last couple of hours walking around with nothing to do and I think you're wrong. I think this rather bizzarely actually leads to what I proposed with diminishing xp returns inside value ranges. Once a certain percentage of your total score is made up in xp it's going to become extraordinarily difficult to keep gaining any amount of score. I'm going to go have dinner and then I might try explaining myself better
Further to what I said here I think the essential point, which a few people have mentioned, is that the only really profitable way for xp whores to operate beyond like 2 mil score is to land on each other. However xp whores won't have enough roids as they'll get roided by other planets. While xp whores will be gaining higher xp per roid they won't be gaining as many roids. Not even close.

Initially xp whores jump out to a big lead. At that point the only profitable situation for them is attacking other xp whores. They could attack close enough score sized value players but those value players will be far tougher targets for a pods only fleet, or close enough, to get through. xp whores then have to attack other xp whores leading to xp-whores farming each other. However the total amount of roids in circulation for this farming will not be anywhere near as high as last round. So they won't be capping enough xp and value players will overtake them. If a group of xp whores start doing well, roid them. Once they lose the roids in circulation between them they have to hit outside their circle in order to get roids back in. However they'll only be able to do this at terrible xp gains. And if you have lower value members in your alliance get them to hit the xp whores. Or any alliance HC recruiting new members get them to hit xp whores. The gains for them will be far better than last round. For the love of god you reactionary lunatics please understand xp whoring can't work anywhere near as well under these conditions
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 20:40   #146
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

xp is an alternative style of winning. Yes, it was probably too strong last round but there's no reason to forbid it. And at that calculation above: No planet of 100k value will have 800 roids on it... and if you find one pm me before it's roided empty

That said, I agree formulas could use a bit of testing.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 21:31   #147
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

I agree with the formula, looks like a very simple and effective way of limiting how much xp can help you win the round.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 21:36   #148
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
To hopefully move further to settling the discussion about the new formula:

YES, it reduces the amount of XP capped
YES, its simpler than before
NO, this formula will not decide the success of XP whoring (the stats will)
NO, Apocco shouldn't have implemented it without public testing/discussion

It doesn't look like its changing any time soon, so I guess we'll have to live with it. At the end of the day, we had to adapt to Races, solo targetting, XP, and everything else, and this is just one more of those things.

I can only say I hope we won't see any more updates without some public consent.
The XP formula is possibly as responsible as stats for XP whoring.
I admit I should have spent more time consulting and testing so people could see how it worked.
The formula could be improved for the lower rankings, as it doesn't limit them quite as effectively. Maybe adding a factor of min(1, value/(1+50*xp)) to it would work - if they get more score in xp than value, then it gives them less XP when attacking.

It would also be possible to change the bash limit, so that if someone is over 40% of your value [as now] OR if someone is over 40% of your score, you can hit them.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 21:43   #149
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

I'm hearing facts and figures from both sides regarding this new formula. I'm not a great mathematician myself, but I can at least understand the implications of this.

As far as I see it, the XP players are still earning more score per day than a value player. Tell me, how is that changing things?

The simple fact is, people paid for next round on the basis of it not being a farce like last round was and now a portion of these people are rather 'unhappy'. Before Appoc can slap down my 'farce' statement, you really need to decide on what style of play you want within PA. If many of the alliances had 'wisened' up last round to the threat and broken XP then it would have been a far more boring round - I know that 1up wouldn't have bothered involving itself in any wars for starters and I thought this is what the game is about?

Appocmaster, all you need to do is test this formula. Once it is tested you will prove 'something' right. You might pick up on an error in your formula or have a smug grin on your face at the end, but at least then it has been tested and people will know.

Currently, as an alliance HC and a potential customer, I'm really not looking forward to the next round as it stands right now. I'd rather this round was delayed than for it to go horribly wrong.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 21:53   #150
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Re: Oh come on...XP formula..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zh|l
As far as I see it, the XP players are still earning more score per day than a value player. Tell me, how is that changing things?
For about two weeks. Three tops.
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