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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 22:01   #251
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

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Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
rediculous

how can it be considered a victory, when they didn't do anything to drop 1up's fleet value, crashed fleets and lost a good amount of ships, and lost more roids? just curious... maybe I missed something
It IS a victory - just not for ND (or 1up).
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 22:02   #252
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

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Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
It IS a victory - just not for ND (or 1up).

well ya, certainly 3-10 benefit nicely
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 22:25   #253
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

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Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
It IS a victory - just not for ND (or 1up).
What would you have done if you were ND HC? Attack angels? NAP with 1up? Maybe roid f-crew? Presuming they'd prefer a slight chance of #1 over a decent shot at another #2 slot I think they made the right choice. Obviously 1up have adopted a bit of a MAD strategy but at least they took a shot rather than rolling over and dying.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 22:32   #254
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
What would you have done if you were ND HC? Attack angels? NAP with 1up? Maybe roid f-crew? Presuming they'd prefer a slight chance of #1 over a decent shot at another #2 slot I think they made the right choice. Obviously 1up have adopted a bit of a MAD strategy but at least they took a shot rather than rolling over and dying.
I don't think anyone is criticising ND for what they did, least of all me. It's nice to see a good rumble.

But Sid is entirely correct in his view. the battle today helped neither us nor ND.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 22:33   #255
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

The situation is simple.

ND and 1up are engaged in a war. They will be both be forced to keep going. The one that keeps going longest, wins. 1up and ND ended up kicking lumps out of each other last night. By the looks of things, reasonably equally sized lumps, although it's difficult to ascertain who came out the better, consider 1up recruited (looking at the averages) a planet of approximately 2million score and 450 roids, although this is minor. Judging by posts on here, I don't think 1up are overly disappointed.

Angels have the highest # of roids in the universe but didn't really gain much in score. Subh made the best gains from this. xVx will be smiling profusely as well.

It is a classic battle of wills - how much do 1up want to win vs how much the universe wants an open round.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 22:35   #256
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

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Originally Posted by mazzelaar
I don't think anyone is criticising ND for what they did, least of all me. It's nice to see a good rumble.

But Sid is entirely correct in his view. the battle today helped neither us nor ND.
Wars are not won in a day. (Unless you're attacking phraktos or france or something.)
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 22:39   #257
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Wars are not won in a day. (Unless you're attacking phraktos or france or something.)
Where did I say they were?

All I said was that Sid was correct in his outlook on todays events.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 22:42   #258
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
Where did I say they were?

All I said was that Sid was correct in his outlook on todays events.
I wasn't posting for your benefit. I trust your ability to understand the game! Far more so than I trust even my own! I was posting for the benefit of people who might easily misinterpret what sid said (now there's a sitcom waiting to happen if ever I've seen one) and think that is all a terrible mistake for ND in the long-term. Why the way sid phrased it you'd almost think he was trying to get people to think that!
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 22:49   #259
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I wasn't posting for your benefit. I trust your ability to understand the game! Far more so than I trust even my own! I was posting for the benefit of people who might easily misinterpret what sid said (now there's a sitcom waiting to happen if ever I've seen one) and think that is all a terrible mistake for ND in the long-term. Why the way sid phrased it you'd almost think he was trying to get people to think that!
Sorry for my misundestanding then

On must look at how good it really is for ND. It's a very nice and gameplay minded situation but the outlook looks grim. Last night wasn't just ND, it was a cartel, which is just fine. But it took 1up alone to inflict damage onto ND. As a part of this little group of alliances you have to ask yourself, "how long will we be left alone before we start getting fat and 1up come looking for thier roids?". ND must also ask themselved who this is really benefitting? Last night didn't benefit them in the slightest. Although we did add one player as lokken correctly noted, we still increased the gap on ND scorewise and I can only guess what a huge effort like that with such minor* damage can do to ones morale?

Today was an interesting day in terms of the incoming. There were a lot of fleets that missed the point of a war and crashed horribly for crap roids (10mil of DE gone at my place for 150 roids as an example) and moderate XP.

Tonight and tomorrow will indeed be interesting

* I only use the term minor because I couldn't think of a better word. I'm perfectly aware that we had a big lump of roids removed from us.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 22:58   #260
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
What would you have done if you were ND HC? Attack angels? NAP with 1up? Maybe roid f-crew? Presuming they'd prefer a slight chance of #1 over a decent shot at another #2 slot I think they made the right choice. Obviously 1up have adopted a bit of a MAD strategy but at least they took a shot rather than rolling over and dying.
I'm not quite sure how you think it's a MAD strategy: I'd love to hear an alternative one. When 4-5 alliances hit one, the only realistic strategy IS to pick one and stick with that one - then recruit other alliances to your side to try to achieve some sort of parity. Swapping targets right now would be a terrible strategy for 1up.

As you correctly said - ND are chasing a slight chance of #1. 1up's goal in response HAS to be to try to make it plain to them that this route offers them no chance of #1 - just the option of sacrificing themselves to help someone else get there. The real test of will won't come for another 3-4 days - when ND drop to 3rd (lack of roids and value growth will let the pack catch up with ND/1up - and I expect ND to hit 3rd before 1up hit 2nd).

1up's gamble is fairly simple. We hope that when ND hit 3rd and 1up are dry on roids they will change targets. Why would they do that? Because continuing to hit 1up at that stage WOULD stop 1up winnng for sure - but the cost would be to guarantee 0 chance of winning for ND. If they change targets 1up can then go for the fattest of the alliances working with ND to try to regrow. In essence we're forced to stick with hitting them - as changing targets wouldn't help us (in fact it would harm us for various reasons - some obvious, some subtle) - until continuing to hit us becomes counter-productive for ND.

The alternative - of changing targets right now to one of their allies - is to make ND's policy IMPROVE their chances of winning - which would just encourage them to stick with targetting us. It's ironic that because we believe ND are hitting us for tactical (rather than "personal") reasons we're obliged to target them back far more (and for far longer) than if their attacks were from some sort of grudge.

Our strategy ISN'T a MAD one. It's the only sensible one.

(And in case anyone believes I may be misunderstanding JBG I'm not confusing "MAD" with "mad" - and anyone who doesn't appreciate the distinction should do some homework before responding).
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 22:58   #261
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

As i've stated, both sides have to ignore today's figures, and just keep going if they want any kind of outcome. Even so, there are alliances that on the face of it would be perfectly happy for the status quo to continue.

Otherwise it's a waste of time for even turning up.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:00   #262
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
On must look at how good it really is for ND. It's a very nice and gameplay minded situation but the outlook looks grim. Last night wasn't just ND, it was a cartel, which is just fine. But it took 1up alone to inflict damage onto ND. As a part of this little group of alliances you have to ask yourself, "how long will we be left alone before we start getting fat and 1up come looking for thier roids?". ND must also ask themselved who this is really benefitting? Last night didn't benefit them in the slightest. Although we did add one player as lokken correctly noted, we still increased the gap on ND scorewise and I can only guess what a huge effort like that with such minor* damage can do to ones morale?
Each alliance in that "block" is going to have "bad days" if 1up hit whoever's fattest. However the point would be that collectively they've all now got a much better chance of winning and they'll only face really heavy incoming on certain days. One could approach it pessimistically and say "we didn't really do that much relatively speaking" or you could approach it optimistically and say "if we're all a bit more active and try a bit harder we can ****ing beat them".

Quote:
Today was an interesting day in terms of the incoming. There were a lot of fleets that missed the point of a war and crashed horribly for crap roids (10mil of DE gone at my place for 150 roids as an example) and moderate XP.
Now there's an area where they can improve and tomorrow the results might be better! Thanks for pointing that out.

Quote:
Tonight and tomorrow will indeed be interesting
In wartime days interest you!

Quote:
* I only use the term minor because I couldn't think of a better word. I'm perfectly aware that we had a big lump of roids removed from us.
But not from elviz am i rite lolololololoforget it
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:02   #263
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
As i've stated, both sides have to ignore today's figures, and just keep going if they want any kind of outcome. Even so, there are alliances that on the face of it would be perfectly happy for the status quo to continue.

Otherwise it's a waste of time for even turning up.
How on earth can you ignore a loss of 5400 roids for 1up and 5800 roids for ND? If you don't think that is a significant sign of the consequences of whats happening then you need your eyes looking at. This isn't something can just be brushed under the carpet as being "a good old laugh and a jolly great war", it is blatently obvious that a continuation of days liek today will have a huge impact on the universal ranks of several alliances.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:10   #264
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Each alliance in that "block" is going to have "bad days" if 1up hit whoever's fattest. However the point would be that collectively they've all now got a much better chance of winning and they'll only face really heavy incoming on certain days.
Which is precisely why 1up won't hit the fattest one each day.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:10   #265
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Each alliance in that "block" is going to have "bad days" if 1up hit whoever's fattest. However the point would be that collectively they've all now got a much better chance of winning and they'll only face really heavy incoming on certain days. One could approach it pessimistically and say "we didn't really do that much relatively speaking" or you could approach it optimistically and say "if we're all a bit more active and try a bit harder we can ****ing beat them".
I don't see you being a glass half full kind of person :P

And 1up won't be going for the "hitting the fattest strategy" we'll be going for the "whats best of us tactically" strategy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Now there's an area where they can improve and tomorrow the results might be better! Thanks for pointing that out.
How can one improve with fewer available ships?
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:13   #266
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
How on earth can you ignore a loss of 5400 roids for 1up and 5800 roids for ND? If you don't think that is a significant sign of the consequences of whats happening then you need your eyes looking at. This isn't something can just be brushed under the carpet as being "a good old laugh and a jolly great war", it is blatently obvious that a continuation of days liek today will have a huge impact on the universal ranks of several alliances.
ND have to grind you down mentally and physically more than anything, which means they have to do things properly. If they can get 1up members out of bed every 2 hours, screw up their sleeping pattern a bit and generally make playing the game a problem for them, they're on the right track as they'll gain an edge.

I'm not brushing anything under the carpet. They are at war with you. You are at war with them. Both of you have to keep going. The only option is to "keep plugging away" at each other. Just like Sid implied. A war of attrition is what is required here. Going "OMG we lost more roids on one day" doesn't mean anyone should stop necessarily.

Obviously, you're confident of victory and trying to demoralise the opposition, but one can hardly blame you for that.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:16   #267
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
As i've stated, both sides have to ignore today's figures, and just keep going if they want any kind of outcome.
Have you been taking something, as this is just plain ridiculous in so many ways.

Firstly, you don't ignore figures in a PA battle. PA is about figures, if you ignore them, then god knows how you're going to get anywhere. How can you analyse what went well/bad and how to proceed if you ignore what's happened so far? Unless you analyse what happened, why and how to prevent it happening again, you are doomed to repetition.

Secondly, "just keep going if they want any kind of outcome" <== There is a common IRC phrase that describes this perfectly: "WTF?!". Firstly it's an utter nonsense statement logically, and secondly it's utter rubbish. The only reason to keep going is if you feel that the outcome from doing so is the one you want to pursue. The game is not so one dimensional that once attacks start, they have to continue until kingdom come for something to happen.

Sorry Lokken, you know I usually take your posts seriously and value them, but this one was utter nonsensical shite. You're not so hot at the pep talks I'm afraid.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:23   #268
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

it's about discipline and who has more of it.....1up's members are most dangerous when they are presented with a fight. They live for this, it motivates them. Grinding them down mentally and physically = tall order

the question is, does ND have more discipline....do they have the mental toughness to sustain a prolonged battle with a superior military force, and do they have the wisdom to forsee the true out come of their actions....
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:24   #269
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
Have you been taking something, as this is just plain ridiculous in so many ways.

Firstly, you don't ignore figures in a PA battle. PA is about figures, if you ignore them, then god knows how you're going to get anywhere. How can you analyse what went well/bad and how to proceed if you ignore what's happened so far? Unless you analyse what happened, why and how to prevent it happening again, you are doomed to repetition.

Secondly, "just keep going if they want any kind of outcome" <== There is a common IRC phrase that describes this perfectly: "WTF?!". Firstly it's an utter nonsense statement logically, and secondly it's utter rubbish. The only reason to keep going is if you feel that the outcome from doing so is the one you want to pursue. The game is not so one dimensional that once attacks start, they have to continue until kingdom come for something to happen.

Sorry Lokken, you know I usually take your posts seriously and value them, but this one was utter nonsensical shite. You're not so hot at the pep talks I'm afraid.
Well, do they not have to keep going? Stopping would mean the whole effort was pointless in the first place and that they've just lost 18% for pretty much no reason apart from getting 1up to hit them, antagonising 1up and giving 1up at least one night of a free hit. They might as well have never bothered if they don't keep going. 1up may have an edge on night 1, ND have no choice but to plod on from what I can see.

I am surprised by what ND has done. But from past rounds, it seems that if you can't get others to do it for you, you just have to do it yourself. Giving up would be conceding and to concede after one night over 400 roids after putting in a concerted effort to try and win something would be plain moronic.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:29   #270
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
I'm not quite sure how you think it's a MAD strategy: I'd love to hear an alternative one. When 4-5 alliances hit one, the only realistic strategy IS to pick one and stick with that one - then recruit other alliances to your side to try to achieve some sort of parity. Swapping targets right now would be a terrible strategy for 1up.
Not necessarily. There's a few different approaches. You could go for the easiest alliances first, knock out the lesser alliances down the food chain from hitting you. Even a day of heavy incoming is often enough to convince a few alliances to stop pissing off an alliance they can't handle. I remember, vaguely, in pre-PAX most people approached wars by knocking out the mid-ranked planets, the guys who sent defence and then hitting the top-heavy gals/planets. Obviously it's not exactly the same but I would consider the situation analogous and offer that up as an alternative strategy.

Quote:
As you correctly said - ND are chasing a slight chance of #1. 1up's goal in response HAS to be to try to make it plain to them that this route offers them no chance of #1 - just the option of sacrificing themselves to help someone else get there. The real test of will won't come for another 3-4 days - when ND drop to 3rd (lack of roids and value growth will let the pack catch up with ND/1up - and I expect ND to hit 3rd before 1up hit 2nd).
I would too if ND don't up their game. But with the chance of beating an alliance with the history and ability of 1up on offer and the encouraging signs you can see in last night (namely that it was mighty close and some people made some basic errors which aren't that difficult to get out of your game) I'd be well ****ing up for, well, ****ing 1up up.

Quote:
1up's gamble is fairly simple. We hope that when ND hit 3rd and 1up are dry on roids they will change targets. Why would they do that? Because continuing to hit 1up at that stage WOULD stop 1up winnng for sure - but the cost would be to guarantee 0 chance of winning for ND. If they change targets 1up can then go for the fattest of the alliances working with ND to try to regrow. In essence we're forced to stick with hitting them - as changing targets wouldn't help us (in fact it would harm us for various reasons - some obvious, some subtle) - until continuing to hit us becomes counter-productive for ND.
That depends on ND's opinion of their military abilities and their will to win. If, say, subh (I picked them as having the biggest roid gains last night) hit first and ND hit third and 1up hit second at the same time, or all within reasonable timespan of each other and ND believed they could beat subh if they could get into a straight fight with them then all they have to do is hit 1up harder than 1up can hit them. Now this is a very tall order but as a I said it's for a slight shot at #1 not a massive one.

Quote:
The alternative - of changing targets right now to one of their allies - is to make ND's policy IMPROVE their chances of winning - which would just encourage them to stick with targetting us. It's ironic that because we believe ND are hitting us for tactical (rather than "personal") reasons we're obliged to target them back far more (and for far longer) than if their attacks were from some sort of grudge..
Not necessarily as I said. You could let them get in front and them out-muscle them when various other alliances got ****ed off with losing for an even smaller chance of #1 than ND while ND pull away. And it is ironic isn't it. The beauty of rational-decision making


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Originally Posted by mazzelaar
I don't see you being a glass half full kind of person :P
* Now talking in #forums
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Quote:
And 1up won't be going for the "hitting the fattest strategy" we'll be going for the "whats best of us tactically" strategy.
I outlined an alternative tactical strategy for you above. Look at me, I'm using the internet to communicate ideas!

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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:35   #271
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Well, do they not have to keep going? Stopping would mean the whole effort was pointless in the first place and that they've just lost 18% for pretty much no reason apart from getting 1up to hit them, antagonising 1up and giving 1up at least one night of a free hit.
Their goal was to stop us running away with the round - and by doing so improve their own chance of winning. They knew we'd retaliate - so losing a few roids is neither here nor there as it was entirely expected. I'd agree with you that they have to keep going at the moment - they'll have set themselves some goal and to stop before achieving it would be pointless. So unless taking 15% of 1up's roids was their goal then they have to keep going. As you confidently state they have to keep going I can only assume that you KNOW that their goal was bigger than 15% of roids - would you care to enlighten me on what it actually is?

Is it, for example until 1up have lost 50% of their roids? Is it until 1up drop to #2? Without either knowing their goal - or defining a reasonable one yourself - I can't really see how you can confidently state they haven't reached it.

Note: I'm not suggesting they HAVE reached their goal as I'm pretty sure they haven't.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:36   #272
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
Have you been taking something, as this is just plain ridiculous in so many ways.

Firstly, you don't ignore figures in a PA battle. PA is about figures, if you ignore them, then god knows how you're going to get anywhere. How can you analyse what went well/bad and how to proceed if you ignore what's happened so far? Unless you analyse what happened, why and how to prevent it happening again, you are doomed to repetition.
Whoosh, as the point flashes by and accelerates off into the distance!

Last night's figures prove what happened last night and not a whole lot more. 1up are vulnerable to a block, but they'll make sure they take someone down with them if this persists. This is known as "Mutually Assured Destruction". The objective of this strategy is to deter attackers, on the basis that attacking 1up creates a significant risk of being the alliance that gets twatted.

Last night's figures indicate that 1up believes that ND is the alliance most likely to back down. If ND do back down, then the entire challenge to 1up collapses - the morale effect on other alliances would be catastrophic. Lokken clearly believes that ND should ignore the losses and soldier on, on the basis that it would be better, in the long run, to inflict losses on 1up even if it means letting, say, Angels get ahead for a while.

If ND continue hitting 1up for the next few days, will it still be in 1up's interests to keep hitting them? An aggressive MAD strategy is basically a bluff - hit me and I'll hit you harder - and if ND call the bluff and keep on hitting then the strategy loses its appeal. It might, eventually, become better for 1up to switch targetting to another alliance that's more likely to back off under fire. All of this is, of course, entirely hypothetical. But the argument that ND should tolerate (ignore) even quite severe short-term losses for a long-term benefit is certainly not 'ridiculous'.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:44   #273
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Last night's figures indicate that 1up believes that ND is the alliance most likely to back down. If ND do back down, then the entire challenge to 1up collapses - the morale effect on other alliances would be catastrophic. Lokken clearly believes that ND should ignore the losses and soldier on, on the basis that it would be better, in the long run, to inflict losses on 1up even if it means letting, say, Angels get ahead for a while.
I'm not so sure about this. Instead, I'd say that 1up are targetting ND because they're their closest competition. Also, since 1up are high on value, ND probably present the best targets for them as well - remember the bash limit is coming into play with the other alliances. ND are probably the least likely out of all involved to back down, since it was they who rolled the dice in starting the war. However, if they are forced to block down, their 'cartel' will most likely go with them.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:46   #274
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
Their goal was to stop us running away with the round - and by doing so improve their own chance of winning. They knew we'd retaliate - so losing a few roids is neither here nor there as it was entirely expected. I'd agree with you that they have to keep going at the moment - they'll have set themselves some goal and to stop before achieving it would be pointless. So unless taking 15% of 1up's roids was their goal then they have to keep going. As you confidently state they have to keep going I can only assume that you KNOW that their goal was bigger than 15% of roids - would you care to enlighten me on what it actually is?

Is it, for example until 1up have lost 50% of their roids? Is it until 1up drop to #2? Without either knowing their goal - or defining a reasonable one yourself - I can't really see how you can confidently state they haven't reached it.

Note: I'm not suggesting they HAVE reached their goal as I'm pretty sure they haven't.
I don't know what their goal is, apart from "winning". Presumably ND felt they had to take you on, so they are doing that.

All I do know is that if they want to be successful they have to grind you down, i.e. make your planetarion lives a miserable one and that's by staying course for the time being and more importantly, being effective in doing so.

Basically, you're hoping that they'll eventually get tired of hitting you and piss off because it isn't doing them any good. I think the feeling should be pretty mutual for them. At some point one of you is either going to have to concede by hitting someone else, or if futility really sets in, both of you might decide to come to a mutual agreement to eliminate some of the competition to try and salvage something worthwhile out of the round, if anyone really wants to.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:49   #275
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Not necessarily. There's a few different approaches. You could go for the easiest alliances first, knock out the lesser alliances down the food chain from hitting you. Even a day of heavy incoming is often enough to convince a few alliances to stop pissing off an alliance they can't handle. I remember, vaguely, in pre-PAX most people approached wars by knocking out the mid-ranked planets, the guys who sent defence and then hitting the top-heavy gals/planets. Obviously it's not exactly the same but I would consider the situation analogous and offer that up as an alternative strategy.
Which alliance to hit depends on a wide range of factors. Hitting the weakest link is sometimes smart - yes. Smacking the strongest one however gives 2 benefits - hurting that one plus letting the weaker ones know what to expect when it gets round to their turn. After all, even the most optimistic of other alliances can't expect ND to take the kicking on their behalf for the rest of the round - so they know sooner or later they've got a price to pay. If the alliances involved were different ones then I'd agree with you - but I think you fail to understand the nature of some of the other involved alliances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I would too if ND don't up their game. But with the chance of beating an alliance with the history and ability of 1up on offer and the encouraging signs you can see in last night (namely that it was mighty close and some people made some basic errors which aren't that difficult to get out of your game) I'd be well ****ing up for, well, ****ing 1up up
I miss your point here. I suspect most ND members play for ND to do well - not to **** up 1up. What encouraging signs are they seeing last night? I expect tonight to be less encouraging for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
That depends on ND's opinion of their military abilities and their will to win. If, say, subh (I picked them as having the biggest roid gains last night) hit first and ND hit third and 1up hit second at the same time, or all within reasonable timespan of each other and ND believed they could beat subh if they could get into a straight fight with them then all they have to do is hit 1up harder than 1up can hit them. Now this is a very tall order but as a I said it's for a slight shot at #1 not a massive one.
Which is why we won't hit them 1st, 2nd or 3rd. We'll hit them 24/7. Go ask ND - how many ticks have they had today without a 1up inc reported? How do you land AFTER continuous incoming? To improve their shot at #1 they need to reduce the gap between them and 1up. Keeping it stable while other alliances catch up on both reduces their chance - as not only they still got to at some point outroid 1up (I assume everyone accepts that if 1up/ND hit one another all round neither of us can win) - but their chance of beating other alliances reduces.

Anyway, I'm off for a bit. Will continue the discussion tomorrow if it hasn't degenerated into the usual rubbish.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:50   #276
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
I expect tonight to be less encouraging for them.
1up in hitting ND tonight shocker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:55   #277
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
I miss your point here. I suspect most ND members play for ND to do well - not to **** up 1up. What encouraging signs are they seeing last night? I expect tonight to be less encouraging for them.
While I agree with most of your recent postings on this topic, I tend to disagree here.

If ND members play for ND to do well then they'll play for ND to end #1 - and eXilition have proven twice that so far in the post-pax era the only useful key to reaching #1 is to annihilate 1up.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:56   #278
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Last night's figures prove what happened last night and not a whole lot more.
Whoosh, as the point flashes by and accelerates off into the distance!

What happened last night didn't help ND, they quite clearly want tonight to be an improvement rather than a repetition. If they just ignore last night and carry on the same, then the same will happen to them again tonight. I wasn't saying that what happened last night is the be all and end all of everything that'll happen this round, I was saying you can't just brush it under the carpet as nothing as it quite clearly isn't nothing. You have to look at what happened, face up to it and decide how to proceed. Surely you don't think strategies should be that rigid?

Quote:
1up are vulnerable to a block, but they'll make sure they take someone down with them if this persists. This is known as "Mutually Assured Destruction". The objective of this strategy is to deter attackers, on the basis that attacking 1up creates a significant risk of being the alliance that gets twatted.
I'm quite aware of what the term means, you don't need to explain it to me. I am also more than aware of 1up's strategy and the reasons behind it. Are you just trying to beef out your post a little, or is there some relevance to this that I've completely missed?

Quote:
Lokken clearly believes that ND should ignore the losses and soldier on, on the basis that it would be better, in the long run, to inflict losses on 1up even if it means letting, say, Angels get ahead for a while.
Which is stupid, you don't just ignore losses and soldier on. You stop losses affecting your morale and resolve, yes, but you don't keep carrying on with a strategy that is causing you more severe losses than the enemy, that's foolish if there are other alternatives.


Quote:
If ND continue hitting 1up for the next few days, will it still be in 1up's interests to keep hitting them? An aggressive MAD strategy is basically a bluff - hit me and I'll hit you harder - and if ND call the bluff and keep on hitting then the strategy loses its appeal.
A bluff? Not sure where you get that idea from, it's similar to a more extreme dead mans trigger. It only applies when one side faces total destruction, in that situation, it isn't a bluff unless you don't have the resolve to carry it through. If you are thinking it is generally a bluff, I think you should be using a term other than MAD.

Quote:
It might, eventually, become better for 1up to switch targetting to another alliance that's more likely to back off under fire. All of this is, of course, entirely hypothetical. But the argument that ND should tolerate (ignore) even quite severe short-term losses for a long-term benefit is certainly not 'ridiculous'.
Ignore is not even close to being the same as tolerate. You can tolerate something despite being acutely aware of it because there are no better options. ND have to decide if the losses are the right way to approach the outcome they want, it might be they are, in which case they tolerate the losses. It is however a decision that needs to be made, not an issue that should be ignored just for the sake of carrying on.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 23:59   #279
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
ND have to grind you down mentally and physically more than anything, which means they have to do things properly. If they can get 1up members out of bed every 2 hours, screw up their sleeping pattern a bit and generally make playing the game a problem for them, they're on the right track as they'll gain an edge.
Absolutely right, but you have to take into account previous rounds. This is nothing new for 1up however easy some people might have thought we've had it in the past. It's not just about grinding us down it's about not being ground down yourself and if you're making us get up every 2 hours then you must be doing something similar yourself and this is the trap for ND as I see it.

I genuinely respect ND for what they've done for this round and I warmly look forward to it, today has ben exciting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I'm not brushing anything under the carpet. They are at war with you. You are at war with them. Both of you have to keep going. The only option is to "keep plugging away" at each other. Just like Sid implied. A war of attrition is what is required here. Going "OMG we lost more roids on one day" doesn't mean anyone should stop necessarily.
Again you hit the nail on the head but my post was more in respect to the fact that as well as looking at us Nd must keep an eye over thier shoulder. Today was close to being a stalemate for 1up and ND but the significant difference is that we have that extra buffer over the people chasing ND. At what point have they held us long enough? Is it when Angels are 15mil and 10 k roids ahead of us both? Would they really feel like another long slog against another qulity alliance like Angels having just come out of a real battle with 1up? The way things have been today gives the alliances below 1up and ND a real push in terms of morale and if things carry on this way there are potentially hugely negative scenarios for ND.

However, you are right. Given this start they have no other option but to push on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Obviously, you're confident of victory and trying to demoralise the opposition, but one can hardly blame you for that.
I know you think I'm trying to use a bit of sneaky propoganda but it's not really a real skill of mine. I tend to say things as I see them because if I try to be clever I inevitably trip myself up at some point
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:01   #280
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Well, do they not have to keep going? Stopping would mean the whole effort was pointless in the first place and that they've just lost 18% for pretty much no reason apart from getting 1up to hit them, antagonising 1up and giving 1up at least one night of a free hit. They might as well have never bothered if they don't keep going. 1up may have an edge on night 1, ND have no choice but to plod on from what I can see.
There is a difference between ignoring what happened and carrying on to prevent it having been pointless and analysing what happened to see how best to proceed for the future.

Surely it's a both a wasted effort and a waste of resources if you suffer heavy losses and don't try and learn from it.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:04   #281
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
1up in hitting ND tonight shocker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh - it's a secret :P
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:07   #282
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Either you commit yourself to a war, or you don't. ND have gone for option "war", and I hope they drag it out, as it'll certainly open up the round a bit, even if they don't win - they've chosen not to settle for 2nd, even though it is at great risk, but once engaged with 1up, disengaging is more or less pointless. It's interesting that the whole 1up line of posting discourages ND to be at war. Maybe they aren't looking forward to it as much as they make out simply because it does put other alliances in the picture.

In some ways, the 1up attitude is as if it's better all round if alliances sat back and let them win. I'll let people draw their own conclusions on whether that should be the case at any stage in planetarion.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:13   #283
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
ND are probably the least likely out of all involved to back down, since it was they who rolled the dice in starting the war. However, if they are forced to block down, their 'cartel' will most likely go with them.
I didnt know ND startet the war. I belive our policy have been not to start a war with any1 sinze round... ah, many rounds before. At the beggining ND have done gal raids not targeting any spefic ally gal, only the gals we benefit the most on. After a while with many incs we switchet to do custom raids targeting the ones who haz been most hostile towards us, again not targetting any speficif ally. Also randomly have had custom raids with just big targets, again not targeting any ally specific. Now we target 1up seeing omfg they hit is like crazy. It waz so much calmer to DC when you guys didnt hit with a shitlaod of fleets n shippies!

Regarding this war its just logic for 1up to hit the ally that threatens the #1 spot the most, atm its ND. But for how long? I recon they will keep on hitting us til were pretty ****t up, by then most likely Angels or Subh.. any of the t5 allys will take #2... even #1 if they play this right. And thats were politics come in. What stand will the diffrent allys take? blah blah blah Lets not make a fuzz and may the best ally win this round \o/

ND ftw!

Cheers and happy roid hunting, hugs and kisses
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:13   #284
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Either you commit yourself to a war, or you don't. ND have gone for option "war", and I hope they drag it out, as it'll certainly open up the round a bit, even if they don't win - they've chosen not to settle for 2nd, even though it is at great risk, but once engaged with 1up, disengaging is more or less pointless. It's interesting that the whole 1up line of posting discourages ND to be at war. Maybe they aren't looking forward to it as much as they make out simply because it does put other alliances in the picture.

In some ways, the 1up attitude is as if it's better all round if alliances sat back and let them win. I'll let people draw their own conclusions on whether that should be the case at any stage in planetarion.
To be fair 1up have never had it where everyone has sat back and let us run away with it. Every round at some point there have been several factions hitting us with everything they have.

And no, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference if ND are officially at war with us, we've been targetted solidly all round. Admittedly not with such gusto but this only proves to be a morale boost for 1up insofar as everyone threw the kitchen sink at us and we came out of it, effectively, unscathed. We lost a bunch of rocks, yes, but capped a whole bunch back and killed a lot of fleet today. You know things are going well when your members are posting BR's of them losing roids and owning a stack of the enemy's fleet.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:14   #285
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

[edit]To Lokken, damn these other people posting![/edit]

I think you've been misinterpreting some posts. If you actually read 1up posts, we're saying ND would be stupid to carry on in the same way they did last night, not that they'd be stupid to carry on. They'd be stupid to ignore last night and brush it under the carpet when instead they can learn from it and improve their approach to the war.

Maybe I'm making such an obvious point that you're taking it for granted and assuming I must be saying something complex/controversial.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:14   #286
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
What happened last night didn't help ND, they quite clearly want tonight to be an improvement rather than a repetition. If they just ignore last night and carry on the same, then the same will happen to them again tonight. I wasn't saying that what happened last night is the be all and end all of everything that'll happen this round, I was saying you can't just brush it under the carpet as nothing as it quite clearly isn't nothing. You have to look at what happened, face up to it and decide how to proceed. Surely you don't think strategies should be that rigid?
First off, I think ND HC will decide whether last night helped them.

Your clear implication is that you think ND should change course. Given that their current course is "attacking 1up" this is hardly surprising, though this doesn't automatically invalidate your argument. You're right that last night's figures do mean something, but I'm not sure that they mean what you think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
I'm quite aware of what the term means, you don't need to explain it to me. I am also more than aware of 1up's strategy and the reasons behind it. Are you just trying to beef out your post a little, or is there some relevance to this that I've completely missed?
I was explaining it for the benefit of the wider AD audience, since I later went on to use the acronym MAD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
Which is stupid, you don't just ignore losses and soldier on. You stop losses affecting your morale and resolve, yes, but you don't keep carrying on with a strategy that is causing you more severe losses than the enemy, that's foolish if there are other alternatives.
Ah, but what alternatives are there, if ND want to win? Hitting 1up is a dirty job, but someone's got to do it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
A bluff? Not sure where you get that idea from, it's similar to a more extreme dead mans trigger. It only applies when one side faces total destruction, in that situation, it isn't a bluff unless you don't have the resolve to carry it through. If you are thinking it is generally a bluff, I think you should be using a term other than MAD.
The thread of MAD is clearly a bluff, because 1up have no interest in self-destruction. Yes, you and ND could keep hitting each other for the rest of the round and Angels would win. It's not in ND's interests to do that. But it's not in your interests either. You're operating on the assumption that ND will blink first. As such, I think it's a bluff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
Ignore is not even close to being the same as tolerate. You can tolerate something despite being acutely aware of it because there are no better options. ND have to decide if the losses are the right way to approach the outcome they want, it might be they are, in which case they tolerate the losses. It is however a decision that needs to be made, not an issue that should be ignored just for the sake of carrying on.
I think this is just semantics. I don't think there's much difference between 'ignoring' and 'tolerating' pain, whether it's physical pain or roid losses.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:22   #287
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by OK.:.VJ
I didnt know ND startet the war. I belive our policy have been not to start a war with any1 sinze round... ah, many rounds before.
Times change, olle. You'd better go and ask BA what ND's doing.


As a general point: does this mean that ND threw its members to the wolves last night and didn't inform them of the true nature of what they were doing? My information says not, but olle's post may indicate otherwise...
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:24   #288
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
It's interesting that the whole 1up line of posting discourages ND to be at war. Maybe they aren't looking forward to it as much as they make out simply because it does put other alliances in the picture.
I agree on that. I dont think 1up are looking forward to this war. It means they gotte be omg so active. 1up does not have the odds on there side if any other ally comes in to attack them. Lets face it, ALL the other allys will benefit on hitting 1up seeing there fat on roids + value. Why whould any1 want to hit ND when they got less roids and ND are #2? Unless 1up manages to manipulte other allys not to hit them or something. But if 1up do manages that, its just well played from them
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:26   #289
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Times change, olle. You'd better go and ask BA what ND's doing.


As a general point: does this mean that ND threw its members to the wolves last night and didn't inform them of the true nature of what they were doing? My information says not, but olle's post may indicate otherwise...
I will stick a potato stick up BA`s willy :P Soz for that.

ND members are quite aware of whats happening, ND HC have sent out a mail to all members informing them on the ally status.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:27   #290
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Rob - You seem to think that hitting 1up is a strategy and that there is only one strategy involved in it which is simply hitting 1up. Maybe it'd be better explained if I used tactics rather than strategy. I am saying the WAY ND are hitting not who they are hitting. I thought I'd made that bloody obvious.

Quote:
The thread of MAD is clearly a bluff, because 1up have no interest in self-destruction.
Errr, you miss the point of MAD. It is not to say "if you attack us, we'll both be destroyed", it's to say "IF WE'RE DESTROYED we're taking you with us." Hence it is blatently not a bluff as it is a tactic in response to your own iminent destruction. It doesn't apply to a situation where destruction is a possibility, only when it becomes a certainty/extremely likely. It's the final straw in a lost battle, it is purely there so that you can ensure if you lose, there are no winners. With MAD there are no winners, it is not a tactic that is used if you're wanting to win.

Quote:
I think this is just semantics. I don't think there's much difference between 'ignoring' and 'tolerating' pain, whether it's physical pain or roid losses.
There is a big difference between ignoring bad results because they aren't what you want and tolerating them because those bad results are the best way to achieve you want. One situation shows stubborness or an inability to adapt, the other shows the ability to exhaust all options and arrive at the one that ensures the least sacrifice for the highest gain and accept the sacrifice. I can tell you with 100% certainty that ND have not exhausted all options. As such, I can tell you for certain that ignoring the results is bloody stupid.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:27   #291
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
The thread of MAD is clearly a bluff, because 1up have no interest in self-destruction. Yes, you and ND could keep hitting each other for the rest of the round and Angels would win. It's not in ND's interests to do that. But it's not in your interests either. You're operating on the assumption that ND will blink first. As such, I think it's a bluff.
I think you miss a key point. If we stop hitting ND in the short/medium term they WON'T stop hitting us. If they stop hitting us in the short/medium term we WILL stop hitting them. If you don't disagree with either of those statements then why on earth do you think 1up would stop first (in the short/medium term)?

I DO accept that in the long term 1up might stop first. But that would be when we fell to #2 by a fair margin - by which stage ND would be 4th or lower. Do YOU think they're willing to drop that far down? Do YOU think we can't find allies before that happens? Do YOU think other alliances will keep hitting us when out roids drop low - hence losing out on xp themselves?

And the long-term could be quite a distance off if Angels have more members deleted for login-sharing (*cough* Alki *cough*).
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:29   #292
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by OK.:.VJ
I agree on that. I dont think 1up are looking forward to this war. It means they gotte be omg so active. 1up does not have the odds on there side if any other ally comes in to attack them. Lets face it, ALL the other allys will benefit on hitting 1up seeing there fat on roids + value. Why whould any1 want to hit ND when they got less roids and ND are #2? Unless 1up manages to manipulte other allys not to hit them or something. But if 1up do manages that, its just well played from them
Wouldn't it make logical sense to both avoid 1up incs and get 'free' roids by hitting NewDawn? If 1up's hitting them constantly, it would be fairly sensible to take advantage of their lack of defence and roid NewDawn.

Keep in mind that far more alliances are going to be competing for 1up roids than for ND roids. If you can get a higher proportion of 'free' roids by hitting ND instead, then you're probably onto a winner.


Definition of 'free' - attack an alliance for roids where both organised retals and defence are unlikely due to said alliance being busy in a war.


EDIT: this post isn't on behalf of Vengeance HC blah blah blah.....
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:42   #293
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
I think you miss a key point. If we stop hitting ND in the short/medium term they WON'T stop hitting us. If they stop hitting us in the short/medium term we WILL stop hitting them. If you don't disagree with either of those statements then why on earth do you think 1up would stop first (in the short/medium term)?

I DO accept that in the long term 1up might stop first. But that would be when we fell to #2 by a fair margin - by which stage ND would be 4th or lower. Do YOU think they're willing to drop that far down? Do YOU think we can't find allies before that happens? Do YOU think other alliances will keep hitting us when out roids drop low - hence losing out on xp themselves?

And the long-term could be quite a distance off if Angels have more members deleted for login-sharing (*cough* Alki *cough*).
It's posts like this that illustrate exactly why they should carry on until you blink first.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:45   #294
olle
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

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Originally Posted by furball
Wouldn't it make logical sense to both avoid 1up incs and get 'free' roids by hitting NewDawn? If 1up's hitting them constantly, it would be fairly sensible to take advantage of their lack of defence and roid NewDawn.

Keep in mind that far more alliances are going to be competing for 1up roids than for ND roids. If you can get a higher proportion of 'free' roids by hitting ND instead, then you're probably onto a winner.


Definition of 'free' - attack an alliance for roids where both organised retals and defence are unlikely due to said alliance being busy in a war.


EDIT: this post isn't on behalf of Vengeance HC blah blah blah.....
For your first part, it whould make sense yeah, free roids are always nice. but whould it be worth it? You`whouldnt get many roids and grow, gain any. In that way it whould make more sense hitting 1up seeing they got more roids and you`ll grow, gain more \o/ On a side note, ND DCs are working very hard and we do cover hostile incs Maybe not all... but witch ally can honest say they cover every singel call every day?

The Defination of "free roids" can be so many, one is what you said. Another one could be hitting a planet with no ally. blah blah blah.

Edit, i do not post on behalf of NewDawn HC ether


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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 00:48   #295
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
It's posts like this that illustrate exactly why they should carry on until you blink first.
It's post like this that make me wish there was a rule on the forums against posts with no content other than effectively to say "you're wrong but I won't/can't say why". But that's just me and my penchant for conclusions to be supported by a chain of logic.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 01:03   #296
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
It's post like this that make me wish there was a rule on the forums against posts with no content other than effectively to say "you're wrong but I won't/can't say why". But that's just me and my penchant for conclusions to be supported by a chain of logic.
If I choose to let people draw their own conclusions, that's my choice. It's very different to saying "you're wrong but I won't can't say why".

As you're interested about my view so much, here it is - the fact you want to intimidate another alliance into not hitting you, suggests it's not in your interest for them to. If you were perfectly happy with the situation, you'ld shut yourself in on IRC, annihilate ND and get it over with, considering you only come out on here on select occasions. The sheer fact you're trying to intimidate them, suggests you are something other than "happy".
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 01:03   #297
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar

But it took 1up alone to inflict damage onto ND.
For your information, under half our incs yesterday was 1up.

So someone are working for you without you knowing it, or you are telling lies
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 01:07   #298
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
If I choose to let people draw their own conclusions, that's my choice. It's very different to saying "you're wrong but I won't can't say why".

As you're interested about my view so much, here it is - the fact you want to intimidate another alliance into not hitting you, suggests it's not in your interest for them to. If you were perfectly happy with the situation, you'ld shut yourself in on IRC, annihilate ND and get it over with, considering you only come out on here on select occasions. The sheer fact you're trying to intimidate them, suggests you are something other than "happy".
Bluffs? Double bluffs? Sid is a very fond poker player

Also, this is actually a reasonably decent discussion (aside from points being missed left right and centre), and the first in a long time. I haven't posted for yonks myself, but I got lured out (damn you all for baiting me out of a nice relaxing evening of CV writing).
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 01:07   #299
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spritfire
For your information, under half our incs yesterday was 1up.

So someone are working for you without you knowing it, or you are telling lies
Given that I know perfectly well how many fleets 1up sent at ND and I know, from talking to your members, how shit your arb is in places I very much doubt you're in a position to qualify any of that ridiculous statement.

And I would have liked to think that you know me well enough not to call me a liar. It's very disappointing that you feel like you have to come on AD and slander me to try and draw a bit of courage by claming 1up teamed with someone to hit you.

At least I know where I stand with you though
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<@JBG> by the way is mazzelaar a community account that everyone in 1up logs into when they're feeling angry?

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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 01:09   #300
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spritfire
For your information, under half our incs yesterday was 1up.

So someone are working for you without you knowing it, or you are telling lies
Everyone gets lots of incomming anyway. 1up was the only alliance focusing/coordinating on ND. I'm sure you knew what he meant, you're not stupid.
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