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Unread 15 Jan 2006, 14:24   #51
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
(note that I also changed Sub to say Steal. About time I suppose )
Not on the page I'm looking at.
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Unread 15 Jan 2006, 14:32   #52
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
Not on the page I'm looking at.
Ah well, it will be on the next revision.
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Unread 15 Jan 2006, 16:40   #53
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Terran DE: 0-loss = Gryphon, fire first = Viper, fire at same time = Fireblade
Terran BS: 0-loss = Black Widow, fire first = Broadsword, Lancer, fire at same time = Dragon, fire after = corsair
Cath FR:0-targetted = Pulsar, fire after = Phoenix, Beetle
Cath CR: 0-targetted = Bomber, Clipper, Guardian, fire at same time/after = Chimera, Scarab, Buccaneer
Xan CO: 0-loss = Drake, fire after = Vsharrak, Assassin
Xan FR: 0-loss = Pulsar, fire after = Phoenix, Beetle
Zik FI: fire before = Spider, Arrowhead, fire at same time = Cutlass, fire after = Harpy, Cutter
Zik DE: 0-loss = Gryphon, Viper, Fireblade
First off, thanks for taking the time to look through this.

I think your Xan overview is incorrect. Xan can only attack Cath with pure CO (this will get slightly more difficult after the next update, FB cost will go up (but efficiency will stay the same)), which means that you can throw anti-FI against Xan CO as well. I think the main problem is going to be lack of ETA 7 EMPing anti-CO to shut down Arrowheads.

Quote:
Key defence ships are the Gryphon, Pulsar, Bomber and Arrowhead, as far as I can tell. At the moment Xan looks incredibly strong compared to everything else - just in my opinion ofc.
At the moment they do. I'm going to lower Xan FR armor slightly (so that firing ships do more damage) and have a targeting change lined up which will reduce the number of targets available a bit*.

Quote:
Terran BS will be as strong as ever due to its massive armour, and will kick ass against Broadswords and Lancers over time - since universe numbers will constantly be depleted due to not killing enough BS on suicide landings. Paper-thin armour is Xan's style, after all.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Xan will avoid getting Siege, which will lead to Ter having low Dragon counts, which in turn leads to Terrans being able to roid eachother, which I definitely don't like. No idea how to sort this though.

* I plan to swap the Marauder and Rogue targets.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 12:26   #54
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

I Pmed u earlier jest and for that im sorry i didnt know when the forums would be back or when i would next be on.

Im seriously concerned at the lack of alliance defence that can be provided against xan FR. The only ship that can effectivly defend against them is the pulsar. Which takes no losses for the trouble. This as furball hinted at makes xans a very powerful race to play.

Changing the rougue to target FR will make it more difficult for them but it only means that ziks cant be hit for no losses now and it doesnt stop the problem of alliance defence. With pulsars still being the only effective alliance defence against FR.

My personal opinion would be to leave maur and rougue as they are and change the phnx init to 4. This is a bold move having the terrans with such a low init ship i know but the only down side i can see to it is the fact theirs another ship that can be used for alliance defence against Xans while not affecting the Cath FR fleet.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 13:02   #55
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
I Pmed u earlier jest and for that im sorry i didnt know when the forums would be back or when i would next be on.
I'll be back on IRC tonight

Quote:
Im seriously concerned at the lack of alliance defence that can be provided against xan FR. The only ship that can effectivly defend against them is the pulsar. Which takes no losses for the trouble. This as furball hinted at makes xans a very powerful race to play.
I think people have 'vsh/tzen' disease. If you look at the round 15 stats, you'll see that the relative firing power meant that a tzen fleet would kill 37/31 ~= 1.2x their value before letting the Vsh fire. Currently a Tzen kills 42/60 = 0.7x its own value in Phoenix and 42/65 ~= .64 its own value in Beetles. Not only that, but there's more motivation to build the other (heavily armored) CO to flak them than there was last round.

The amount needed on top of this is a bit higher (about 1.5-1.8x value), due to their lower damage efficiency, but all in all this isn't nearly as bad as the situation last round.

Quote:
My personal opinion would be to leave maur and rougue as they are and change the phnx init to 4. This is a bold move having the terrans with such a low init ship i know but the only down side i can see to it is the fact theirs another ship that can be used for alliance defence against Xans while not affecting the Cath FR fleet.
Atrition favors the defender, and I don't think we should make a set of stats that annihilates everyone every time an attacker lands. There's by far enough of that messiness in the ter vs xan dynamic already.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 13:50   #56
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

First off, there's no need to afraid of PMing me on IRC, I'd love to hear from you. If I don't respond it's probably because I'm not on IRC at the moment or because I'm busy with something. Don't let that deter you, I welcome input from one and all.

Just some simple stuff here. Harpy armor up to make Xan FI/CO a bit less FB oriented. FB cost up (efficiency slightly up) to make it draw less fire. Sabre damage down is a slightl downtweak mainly designed to make it easier to count how many roids you can cap (4 roids for every 5 Sabres), but also to force less Tzen/Bombers in the Xan FR fleet. Cutlass cost down, so it flaks better, armor down a bit, damage up a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beta6 -> beta7

* Harpy armor 20 to 21
* Gryphon damage 65 to 55
* Fireblade cost .8/.8/.8 to 1.2/1.2/1.2
* Fireblade armor 8 to 12
* Fireblade damage 11 to 17
* Sabre damage 43 to 40
* Cutlass cost .45/.45/.6 to .425/.425/.55
* Cutlass armor 7 to 6
* Marauder CR->FR to CR->DE
* Marauder damage 115 to 125
* Rogue BS->DE to BS->FR
* Rogue damage 220 to 190
At this point it's time to open the floodgates for whining. If no one has anything to say in the next few days, I may very well make these stats final. So if you want anything changed, if you have some issue (big or small), make yourself heard right now.

Again, if you want to whine, whinge, complain, bitch, comment, criticize (preferably constructively, but I'm no longer picky), or otherwise have your input heard and replied to, do it now. Otherwise I'll be finalizing stats sometime around sign-ups.

New stats here (now with Steal in place of Sub (for real this time!))

NAMES WILL BE CHANGED ONCE STATS ARE FINALIZED, SO DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE THIEF NOT STEALING ETC.

Last edited by Banned; 16 Jan 2006 at 15:12.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 19:01   #57
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

This isn't anything re:stats, but i figure this is the best place to post regarding ship names. Call me old fashioned, or insane, but there's a few changes i'd like to suggest
and please before flaming realize i do know they're not finalized, im just throwing in my 2cents

Ship names

Gryphon and Drake switch names - I feel that if both ships have been downgraded one class then perhaps their names should be also. I feel a bit like since Gryphon was FR, perhaps it would be nice to move the name to the CO>CO ship. Same with Drake, as it was a DE, it would make more sense to shift the name to one class lower, being the FR>DE ship
Making them;
Gryphon CO>CO
Drake FR>DE


Lancer - Call me old fashioned, and call me wrong if I am, but I always saw the lancer as a large ship hitting smaller ones. Now if the new DE>BS is anything to go by I'm not that thrilled about the Lancer being used for the name. Obviously it doesn't matter so much, but perhaps it would be better leaving out the Hysperian Lancer for a round in favour of the Ghost which has always hit closer to capital ships - imagining again this time that the ship has (again) been pushed up a class? Alternatively I'd like to see Wraith/Spectre there even if they have science-based routes -- cute names.
Making it something like;
Ghost DE>BS

Zikonian as a whole - Zik ship names have always slightly annoyed me. I honestly feel like there are too many 'C's which can get annoying. Possible solutions I've heard are included below, hopefully something can be changed. Also a couple of things like the kill/steal class which i felt i wanted to mention.

Cutlass FI>FI KILL - Fine
Assassin FI>CO STEAL- rename to Corsair - low armor really makes me want to call this the corsair as traditionally they have been weak little (all be it kill class) fighters.
Cutter CO>FI STEAL - rename to Thief - possibly shift the thief down a class and swap it with the FR>CO ship.
Thief FR>CO KILL - Rename to Cutter - Cutter has traditionally been kill class, so shift it up a class. Also, i cant imagine a thief unit not thieveing.
Corsair DE>BS STEAL - as i'd like to see the corsair name shifted to FI class and removing a 'c' name, perhaps consider : RAVAGER MACON ADMIRAL FALCON SHRAPNEL SEYLON FORTHRIGHT PERIWINKLE MAN'O'WAR HAMMERHEAD PIRATE
Buccaneer DE>CR STEAL - fine
Clipper CR>CR KILL - altho i want to get rid of some 'c' names i do like the clipper remaining kill class, and i do like the name, alternatively consider a name from above
Marauder CR>DE STEAL - fine
Rogue BS>FR STEAL - fine

Making it possibly:

Cutlass FI>FI KILL
Corsair FI>CO STEAL
Thief CO>FI STEAL
Cutter FR>CO KILL
Periwinkle DE>BS STEAL (no idea why i <3 that name lol)
Buccaneer DE>CR STEAL
Forthwright CR>CR KILL
Marauder CR>DE STEAL
Rogue BS>FR STEAL

anyways
thats my 2cents

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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 19:04   #58
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Fs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
NAMES WILL BE CHANGED ONCE STATS ARE FINALIZED, SO DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE THIEF NOT STEALING ETC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
This isn't anything re:stats, but i figure this is the best place to post regarding ship names. Call me old fashioned, or insane, but there's a few changes i'd like to suggest
and please before flaming realize i do know they're not finalized, im just throwing in my 2cents
There's a thread on PD for ship names, and no doubt another one will be made when the stats are finalised.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 19:36   #59
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
This isn't anything re:stats, but i figure this is the best place to post regarding ship names.
This would have been a better place to post.

Quote:
Gryphon and Drake switch names - I feel that if both ships have been downgraded one class then perhaps their names should be also. I feel a bit like since Gryphon was FR, perhaps it would be nice to move the name to the CO>CO ship. Same with Drake, as it was a DE, it would make more sense to shift the name to one class lower, being the FR>DE ship
Making them;
Gryphon CO>CO
Drake FR>DE
In round 11 The Gryphon was a CO->FR.

Quote:
Alternatively I'd like to see Wraith/Spectre there even if they have science-based routes -- cute names.
I plan on incorporating some of this. I don't want to make a full theme off it because I don't want to lose the PA feel (of the old Xan shipnames).

Quote:
Zikonian as a whole - Zik ship names have always slightly annoyed me. I honestly feel like there are too many 'C's which can get annoying.
In my opinion it's not a C problem, it's a Cut problem.

Quote:
Assassin FI>CO STEAL- rename to Corsair - low armor really makes me want to call this the corsair as traditionally they have been weak little (all be it kill class) fighters.
Corsairs 'traditionally' fire at FR/DE/CR.

Quote:
Thief FR>CO KILL - Rename to Cutter - Cutter has traditionally been kill class, so shift it up a class. Also, i cant imagine a thief unit not thieveing.
Seriously, it's like you didn't read the bolded, italicked and underlined all-caps.

Quote:
anyways
thats my 2cents
Thanks

Last edited by Banned; 16 Jan 2006 at 19:46.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 20:01   #60
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

I think changing the Rogue to BS>FR make and the Marauder to CR>DE make zikonian much weaker on the capitol ships which it already was. In order to build any value Ziks will have to steal ships by defending others against attackers much smaller in value.

Most of the other races are able to gain xp by landing on similar sized targets or larger with little loss with the right ship types. Zik has no such advantage and the current stats make stealing unproffitable.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 22:01   #61
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I think changing the Rogue to BS>FR make and the Marauder to CR>DE make zikonian much weaker on the capitol ships which it already was.
How does it make them so much weaker?

Quote:
In order to build any value Ziks will have to steal ships by defending others against attackers much smaller in value.
Seeing as neither change affected alliance defense, I can only assume you are referring to ingal defense. Now they can defend against Xan FR with 0-losses, and Cath FR without fear of losses. How has this change forced such a large difference in how Ziks build value?

Quote:
Most of the other races are able to gain xp by landing on similar sized targets or larger with little loss with the right ship types. Zik has no such advantage and the current stats make stealing unproffitable.
Have any examples of instances where stealing is unprofitable?
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 22:18   #62
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

I really like it.

In the beta as a zik i had massive problems deffing against both xan fleet, but swappin the Rogues targetting really helps stopping one fleet atleast.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 17:45   #63
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

I know the ship names still need to be changed but if you're going to make a ship like the BEETLE that is a Corvette target Frigates, why don't we just call this ship a VIPER? Changes like this confuse things more than they help.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 18:45   #64
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Perhaps this breakdown will help

TERRAN
DE attack against -
terran - only successful if sending phoenix along and target doesnt have alot of Dragons
cath - succesful if enough to overcome roach emp
xan - unsuccessful without losses
zik - successful without loss

BS attack against -
terran - unsuccessful without losses due to dragons
cath - succesful only in number strength to overcome blackwidow emp
xan - unsuccessful without losses
zik - successful without loss

DE success = 2+ targets BS success = 2 targets

CATH
FR attack against -
terran - only succesfull if you send a mixed co/fr/de fleet
cath - successful in sufficent numbers and if escorted by scarabs
xan - successful if escorted by spiders
ziks - successful without loss

CR attack against -
terran - successful without loss
cath - unsuccessful
xan - successful without loss
zik - successful if escorted by scarabs

FR success = 3 targets CR success = 3 targets

XAN
CO attack against -
terran - unsuccessful due to Pegasus fire at same time as FireBlade
cath - successful only in numbers to overcome scorpion emp
xan - unsuccessful due to Tzen
zik - successful if escorted by vsh and pulsar

FR attack against -
terran - successful without loss
cath - successful in numbers to overcome Tarantula emp
xan - unsuccessful due to arrowhead escort losses from hostile tzen fire
zik - successful with lancer escort

CO success = 2 targets FR success = 3 targets

ZIK
FI attack against -
terran - successful without loss
cath - successful in numbers to overcome spider emp
xan - unsuccessful without loss, unless goal is to steal enemy fi after losses
zik - unsuccessful without loss, trade ships with enemy basically

DE attack against -
terran - unsuccessful without loss
cath - successful only with theif escort in numbers to overcome tarantula and roach emp
xan - unsuccessful without loss
zik - successful if trading ship losses

FI success = 2 DE success = 1


TARGETED BY
terran - 4 fleets
cath - 7 fleets
xan - 2+ fleets
zik - 6 fleets


teamups and zik stolen fleets will change things of course.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 20:16   #65
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

I'd like to say that although it is useful, that method of looking at stats does have its limits.

For example, the terran battleship fleet should be able to hit cathaars, xandathrii and ziks. Xand research is notoriously slow, it will be some time before 'swords are available, not to mention in abundant enough numbers. Not only do I expect them to be a minor spending point for xands (they will already have invested heavily in smaller ships by the time that the broadsword is available and so will have to 'catch up' production), but they are not particularly that effective IMO either. As a terran, I would be inclined to land against minor peacekeeper defence, as I know I'd be causing far more hideous damage in return. I'm actually thinking the corsair will be the most prominent anti BS ship...

Meanwhile, cath CO/FR/DE vs terrans doesn't seem that productive. It's still vulnerable to pulsars, you have to accept losses against pegs, you have to spend more resources on black widows than the terran has spent on his entire BS fleet in order to guarantee no losses, and to spend twice as much on beetles as the terran has spent on gryphons.

And so on.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 20:30   #66
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I'd like to say that although it is useful, that method of looking at stats does have its limits.

For example, the terran battleship fleet should be able to hit cathaars, xandathrii and ziks. Xand research is notoriously slow, it will be some time before 'swords are available, not to mention in abundant enough numbers. Not only do I expect them to be a minor spending point for xands (they will already have invested heavily in smaller ships by the time that the broadsword is available and so will have to 'catch up' production), but they are not particularly that effective IMO either. As a terran, I would be inclined to land against minor peacekeeper defence, as I know I'd be causing far more hideous damage in return. I'm actually thinking the corsair will be the most prominent anti BS ship...
I agree. Terrans take losses, but their armour is enough to allow them to land anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Meanwhile, cath CO/FR/DE vs terrans doesn't seem that productive. It's still vulnerable to pulsars, you have to accept losses against pegs, you have to spend more resources on black widows than the terran has spent on his entire BS fleet in order to guarantee no losses, and to spend twice as much on beetles as the terran has spent on gryphons.

And so on.
Indeed. It's so easy to hit Terrans with CR that there's no point trying to send a FR fleet.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 22:40   #67
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGoaT
Perhaps this breakdown will help
Thanks

Quote:
TERRAN
DE attack against -
terran - only successful if sending phoenix along and target doesnt have alot of Dragons
cath - succesful if enough to overcome roach emp
xan - unsuccessful without losses
zik - successful without loss


BS attack against -
terran - unsuccessful without losses due to dragons
cath - succesful only in number strength to overcome blackwidow emp
xan - unsuccessful without losses
zik - successful without loss

DE success = 2+ targets BS success = 2 targets
I disagree slightly on DE v Xan. There's absolutely no motivation to build Chimera for the first week or two, whereas Xan will need to build Arrows if they want to attack with CO. While I think Xan will be able to immunize themselves against DE incoming mid/late game, I think most will be DE hittable for a few weeks. I also think that Gate is right in thinking they're eskew Siege in favor of other tech. This means they'll build PKs, which means Ter can pump res into Wyverns. Again, Xan can immunize themselves, but early-mid game Ter should be able to hit them.

Quote:
CATH
FR attack against -
terran - only succesfull if you send a mixed co/fr/de fleet
cath - successful in sufficent numbers and if escorted by scarabs
xan - successful if escorted by spiders
ziks - successful without loss

CR attack against -
terran - successful without loss
cath - unsuccessful
xan - successful without loss
zik - successful if escorted by scarabs

FR success = 3 targets CR success = 3 targets
I suspect that after the whole round 13 cath debacle, a load of players are going to avoid cath just because I'm making stats. This should hopefully result in fewer people playing Cath and thus less incoming. I suspect there should be a warning sign to go with Cath. Something along the lines of 'You will be getting incoming. Every day. Be ready to deal with it.'

I'm inclining towards increasing some of the damage efficiencies, but I really don't want to have Cath as the 'play this if you want to win' race. I moved away from CO fleets specifically for this reason. It was too easy to get an early lead and just pile on the the HCT/ETA techs.

Quote:
XAN
CO attack against -
terran - unsuccessful due to Pegasus fire at same time as FireBlade
cath - successful only in numbers to overcome scorpion emp
xan - unsuccessful due to Tzen
zik - successful if escorted by vsh and pulsar

FR attack against -
terran - successful without loss
cath - successful in numbers to overcome Tarantula emp
xan - unsuccessful due to arrowhead escort losses from hostile tzen fire
zik - successful with lancer escort

CO success = 2 targets FR success = 3 targets
I think FR is overrated here. Out EMP-ing Tarantulas just isn't going to work or will be too easy to defend against (a single CO fleet should do it). DE->BS escort vs Zik is trickier. I don't think it should be feasible, but currently FR targets almost everything that targets DE, though Ter, Cath and Xan can all incur losses on that very easily.

Quote:
ZIK
FI attack against -
terran - successful without loss
cath - successful in numbers to overcome spider emp
xan - unsuccessful without loss, unless goal is to steal enemy fi after losses
zik - unsuccessful without loss, trade ships with enemy basically

DE attack against -
terran - unsuccessful without loss
cath - successful only with theif escort in numbers to overcome tarantula and roach emp
xan - unsuccessful without loss
zik - successful if trading ship losses

FI success = 2 DE success = 1
I'm not quite happy with this, but it's basically right. Clever Zik will be able to use DE to cap CR/BS, which they can in turn use to fake to cap more ships, but it's not going to be easy. (Whereas attacking with FI is probably going to be dead easy for active people.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I'd like to say that although it is useful, that method of looking at stats does have its limits.
Every way of looking at stats has its limits. That's why we try to explore as many as possible

Quote:
Meanwhile, cath CO/FR/DE vs terrans doesn't seem that productive. It's still vulnerable to pulsars, you have to accept losses against pegs, you have to spend more resources on black widows than the terran has spent on his entire BS fleet in order to guarantee no losses, and to spend twice as much on beetles as the terran has spent on gryphons.
Much better to just team up with a Xan.
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Unread 18 Jan 2006, 06:55   #68
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

guess I should have included a disclaimer that those listings were based ONLY on stats and not on the intentions and skill or building preference of the players. It is only a guide to see what each race is effective against per the stats.
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Unread 18 Jan 2006, 11:09   #69
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Hey Banned!

In case no one else says it, Good job on the stats, Mate! They look great to me!
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Unread 18 Jan 2006, 15:34   #70
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

I like the look of Terran battleships so far nothing like a good game of chicken with an xan
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Unread 18 Jan 2006, 18:09   #71
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

So you're not giving Cathaar CORVETTE pods? Are you nuts? That's the only thing I ever liked about Cathaar.
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Unread 18 Jan 2006, 18:21   #72
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Then don't go Cathaar :crymeariver:, go Xan instead.
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Unread 18 Jan 2006, 19:04   #73
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random
So you're not giving Cathaar CORVETTE pods? Are you nuts? That's the only thing I ever liked about Cathaar.
The way I see it, I gave them that CO pod, so it would only be appropiate for me to the one to take it away.

Last edited by Banned; 18 Jan 2006 at 19:20.
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Unread 18 Jan 2006, 21:29   #74
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Time to stick a fork in it and so on.

Final stats, also available ingame.

Demeter armor up because I forgot to even it with the other Ter DE. Black Widow damage efficiency up slightly. Vsharrak efficiencies down a bit (damage was a bit too far on the insane side for my liking). Xan FR armor down slightly to make landing on def more difficult. Thief armor up to make building them more worthwhile (ie fewer to force to Xan to bring along FI escorts).
Quote:
Originally Posted by beta7->Final
* Demeter armor 325 to 350
* Black Widow cost 5.5/7.5/5.5 to 5.75/7.5/5.75
* Black Widow armor 68 to 70
* Black Widow damage 113 to 120
* Vsharrak cost .325/.325/.325 to .35/.35/.35
* Tzen armor 28 to 26
* Bomber armor 35 to 32
* Lancer armor 62 to 60
* Thief armor 72 to 70
* Thief damage 55 to 65
Then the name changes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terran
* Chimera name to Barghest
* Gryphon name to Chimera
* Phoenix name to Gryphon
* Drake name to Phoenix
* Demeter name to Ziz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Google Hit For Barghest
It only appears at night. People believe that anyone who sees the dog clearly will die soon after the encounter.
Need I say more? Better than large male duck anyway

Gryphon was CO->FR back in r11, so that change is at least mildly appropriate (and it's still def against the small Cath pod...)

Demeter is a bit annoying, as she was a goddess, not a mythical creature. Not only that, but she was the goddess of agriculture. Hardly fitting for a PA ship. I expect everyone's going to hate me for the replacement though. The Ziz originates from the same myths as Leviathan and Behemoth, except apparantly big sea serpents and overgrown hippos are cooler than birds big enough to block out the sun (Though let's face it, Leviathan and Behemoth do sound slightly more intimidating).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathaar
* Scorpion name to Recluse
* Guardian name to Mantis
Scorpion as an FR doesn't work, so we dig out the Recluse. It's a kind of spider. If you've got a strong stomach you can go google image search "recluse spider". Mantis is an oldie, but a goodie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xandathrii
* Vsharrak name to Phantom
* Pulsar name to Vsharrak
* Bomber name to Ghost
* Peacekeeper name to Wraith
* Lancer name to Peacekeeper
So we lose the Lancer (no real ships in that role this round) and the Pulsar (I was tempted to make the Pulsar FI->FR as that's historically more correct than then Vsh being FI->FR). The Ghost is a fairly easy one after last round. I wanted one more of the old 'cloak' names in, and of the old r3-5 ones, only Wraith and Spectre were left. Wraith was a CO, but Spectre always fired at small ships. Since I've been doing it a lot today, I let targeting decide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zikonian
* Cutlass name to Interceptor
* Assassin name to Cutlass
* Thief name to Assassin
* Cutter name to Thief
* Rogue name to Pirate
* Clipper name to Rogue
* Corsair name to Clipper
Finally, the elusive Interceptor. Some people want the Harpy to be renamed, but I figured zik would actually fit the name better, as it's role as much as a noun. Cutlass as FI->CO fits better than Thief there (I didn't want to make the Thief DE, as traditionally Pirate is the big one, Thief is the small one). Other than that it should be fairly straight-forward. Except the new Clipper. That one made me cry a little inside.

Ship name stuff crossposted here.
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Unread 18 Jan 2006, 22:07   #75
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

I'd like to congratulate Jester on making an excellent set of stats. It should be a great round.
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Unread 18 Jan 2006, 22:29   #76
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Any chance of more ghostie names for the xands? I would love to see 'Spectre' fit in somewhere, maybe in place of the broadsword.

I still don't particularly like the inclusion of barghest or ziz. Barghest sounds like someone who's visiting a pub ffs! I would much prefer to see kraken fit in there somewhere. It's just so much cooler IMO

And for the ziks, I definitely miss the corsair.

But otherwise, may the round prove that you haven't buggered up. Best of luck you poor sod. <o.
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Unread 18 Jan 2006, 23:42   #77
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I'd like to congratulate Jester on making an excellent set of stats. It should be a great round.
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 10:04   #78
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I'd like to congratulate Jester on making an excellent set of stats. It should be a great round.
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 14:27   #79
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Nicely made stats jester. It's a good thing xans can hardly hit other xans anymore, i hate those black on black crimes
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 15:35   #80
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Looks liek were in for a messy round
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 21:33   #81
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

I know its too late to complain about this issue, but anywasy i do.
The idea of xans is to attack with large fleets because the ships dont have too much power. Now a Battleships or a Cruiser usually has much power imo - so it wouldnt fit in a xans fleet. with reducing the power of this big ships it could as well be a Frigate or a Destroyer. So I think Xans should never have any BS and CR again.
Just something to think about for next round...
This ones are done nicely (if there wouldnt have been the issue i mentioned they would be perfect).
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 22:59   #82
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by frostbeule
I know its too late to complain about this issue, but anywasy i do.
The idea of xans is to attack with large fleets because the ships dont have too much power. Now a Battleships or a Cruiser usually has much power imo - so it wouldnt fit in a xans fleet. with reducing the power of this big ships it could as well be a Frigate or a Destroyer. So I think Xans should never have any BS and CR again.
Just something to think about for next round...
I disagree, because I feel that taking out certain classes from each (or any of the races) reduces the complexity of the stats and therefore the depth. I also feel that it makes up for Xan's research penalty unfairly, thus skewing balance in their favor. Mind you, I broke this rule in r13 by giving Xan only a CR (no BS), but I made up for it by making it the only Xan ship targeting BS, thus forcing Xan to (eventually) get Siege. This time neither the CR nor BS is essential (since both targets are duplicate), but now at least there is a motivation to build them (their initiative makes them better than the alternatives).
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Unread 20 Jan 2006, 07:01   #83
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Jester good ****ing job with the stats!! Remember, initially it was my suggestion that you do them*, but you tried to act tough about it. Anyway, I can see a reason why I could play any of the races, and thats how the stats should be every round. No one race should dominate, and all should be playable. I particulary like caths. They are ace in so many ways.
Thanks though, I know it takes a lot of work.


*If it is widely agreed later on that the stats suck. No it was not.
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Unread 20 Jan 2006, 13:30   #84
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by frostbeule
INow a Battleships or a Cruiser usually has much power imo - so it wouldnt fit in a xans fleet.
I like the idea of xand CR or BS. I've heard jester refer to them as 'PDS' actually and from a stats design standpoint, I like it. As it is, xand CR/BS aren't vital but they have their advantages. Broadswords outperform peacekeepers (ewww, call them spectres please? ) at defence, but can't be used for attack. Whilst wraiths get to shoot first.

So long as they're not completely vital, I like the additions; and it does make things slightly more interesting for xands.
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Unread 20 Jan 2006, 14:18   #85
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I like the idea of xand CR or BS. I've heard jester refer to them as 'PDS' actually and from a stats design standpoint, I like it.
PDS is a ship that's not useful for attacking, but doesn't make alliance ETA for whatever it targets. For example, the Wraith is PDS, the Broadsword is not.

Quote:
So long as they're not completely vital, I like the additions; and it does make things slightly more interesting for xands.
That's the idea
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Unread 21 Jan 2006, 14:53   #86
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

i do feel that the harpys init time should drop to match that of the interceptor,... it'll just give ziks that one more slight hinderence i think they need, whislt not providing somthing completly overwhelming for them to deal with.
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Unread 21 Jan 2006, 15:04   #87
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Imo, that would make terrans too good, theyre good enough as it is. And zik is far form too strong imo.
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 03:10   #88
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

yeah, besides the Xandathrii and Catharr both have powerful same-eta anti-fi ships. The Zik -> Terran scenario is a lopsided match for the Zik, but some friendly spiders or arrowheads could easily turn the tide in the Terran's favor.
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 11:54   #89
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

They harpy should definitely not be lower init, now the ziks at least can attack 2 races for free with their FI (though i doubt they will get through on caths, as Spiders will be around a lot I guess). Good thing is that ziks are a little bit easier to play, as u can just go and build only FI and scare caths and terrans. And ofcourse later in round the stealing will do some very nice things as always.
Besides that I think xans will be very good this round... its very hard to attack them without losses, only cath CR could do that job. Also their FR attack fleet (maybe with addition of the Peacekeeper when attack the ziks) is pretty powerfull again. And ofcourse the FI+CO combi will do some nice damage against every race.

Etc... Etc... caths and terrans are both very good attackingwise, but can both be roided pretty easy by all other races, so that are obvious the XP-races again.
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 14:07   #90
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Yeah, drop init on Harpy.. Remember, Terrans are the race the new players likes best. Atm it seems to get murdered in every department.
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 19:11   #91
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

ziks,.. steal,.. other peoples,.. ships,.... THAT'S their strength,.. NOT their OWN ships,.. they take the best of everyone elses,.. they're not meant to start with a strong attacking fleet,... there meant to GAIN it,...
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 20:02   #92
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Yeah, drop init on Harpy.. Remember, Terrans are the race the new players likes best. Atm it seems to get murdered in every department.
I really disagree with this I'm afraid. Terrans really need another weakness, atm, the main fleets that can hit them are quite easy to cover. Dropping init on harpy would make them almost unkillable. :/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko
ziks,.. steal,.. other peoples,.. ships,.... THAT'S their strength,.. NOT their OWN ships,.. they take the best of everyone elses,.. they're not meant to start with a strong attacking fleet,... there meant to GAIN it,...
How often do ziks genuinely steal enough ships to make a whole new attack fleet?

Most zik attack fleets in recent rounds have primarily consisted of zik ships with something else for backup (Roach in a CR/BS fleet or tzens with frigates. Or in round 13, just craploads of frigates :/ ), the strength of stealing has generally been to plug their weaknesses (eg. trying to steal vipers last round), and make them far harder to cover as you have to overcover quite substantially!
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 20:32   #93
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Yeah, drop init on Harpy.. Remember, Terrans are the race the new players likes best. Atm it seems to get murdered in every department.
Since you usually play Terran then you must be worried about the Zik Fi. Face it, you are going to need help with Fi incomming or you are going to have to spend all your resources on harpies. Xan arrowheads rip through Zik fi easy so just make sure you have a couple in your galaxy.
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 21:42   #94
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Talking Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Xan arrowheads rip through Zik fi easy so just make sure you have a couple in your galaxy.
good point...but i think there are tons in any galaxy every round so there are no wiery's there..the only thing is trying to get them to send defence to you...
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 22:32   #95
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Dropping init on Harpy is a massive NONO, gate already outlined why.

As i said previously Arrows are the main danger for ziks this round, hopefully most xans will use em on their attacks
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 22:47   #96
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Ziks will need lots of Assassin which targets arrowheads...

if Xan attacked with pure CO against Zik then you would need tons of Assassins...would you not...
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 23:05   #97
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Most zik attack fleets in recent rounds have primarily consisted of zik ships with something else for backup (Roach in a CR/BS fleet or tzens with frigates. Or in round 13, just craploads of frigates :/ ), the strength of stealing has generally been to plug their weaknesses (eg. trying to steal vipers last round), and make them far harder to cover as you have to overcover quite substantially!
then this round, Zik's will have to try and plug there weakness of arrowheads with...slealing Recluse...

Recluse would fire first against arrows...so they would be better defence then Assassin..
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 23:18   #98
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Explode
Ziks will need lots of Assassin which targets arrowheads...

if Xan attacked with pure CO against Zik then you would need tons of Assassins...would you not...
Or you could try and get ingal tzens\pegs etc.

Only way a zik can survive
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 23:50   #99
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

so Zik's will need Assassin for themselves then stealing Recluse, tzens, pegs...if they have no friends that will send defence to them....
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Unread 24 Jan 2006, 03:56   #100
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 16 beta stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Explode
then this round, Zik's will have to try and plug there weakness of arrowheads with...slealing Recluse...

Recluse would fire first against arrows...so they would be better defence then Assassin..
Problem is the only anti fr zik has is a bs stealer. Not very likely in the early part of the round and by the time zik has the cr/bs ships many cath players will have moved on to the cr fleet.
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