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Unread 12 Jan 2006, 18:05   #51
Cannon_Fodder
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Sorry to say, but I only see your post as an attempt to play down the expectations of 1up.
So really you put him in a catch 22 situation, if he said 1up would win, you would have a go at him for arrogance, instead of what actually happened.
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Unread 12 Jan 2006, 18:14   #52
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I dont really feel like commenting on any of the stuff you post since the only thing you seem to be good at is to insult me instead of commenting on the actual issues here.
so tell me where i directly insulted you please? and its pretty clear that i commented on very real issues since i consider Angels a top contender next round, hence i gave my opinion on that matter, whilst you stated there was no competition, i merely corrected you. So please do comment on my post i would like to see what you come up with.
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Unread 12 Jan 2006, 18:15   #53
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

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Unread 12 Jan 2006, 18:25   #54
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

NewDawn cannot be counted as competition for #1. They rely on one person running their military and usually drop dead after 2 nights of full scale incoming.

Angels cannot be counted as competition for #1. They got too much internal disagreement, too many egos trying to fight each other.

LCH can be counted as competition for #1. I don't know how successfull their so called rebuild was, or whether it even was one, but round 15 has nicely shown that without incoming they can still play quite a decent round. Question is will they drop dead like in round 14 because nobody is around to help them - and will they be willed and active enough to try and win?

1up can be counted as competition for #1. Look at their history, enough said. The only things to stop them are an alliance like eXilition or 1up combined with a bunch of lower-ranked alliances jumping in on the '1up can be beaten' course; and of course their own activity.

DOS will probably pull an Insomnia considering they will most likely disband once eXilition returns in round 17 to use the new-grown anti-1up feeling to win their third round.
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Unread 12 Jan 2006, 18:36   #55
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
So really you put him in a catch 22 situation, if he said 1up would win, you would have a go at him for arrogance, instead of what actually happened.
That is you putting words in my mouth. Feel free to theorize on what I am thinking or what I am not thinking, just dont claim that you know for a fact what I am going to say. I have not critisied 1up for being arrogant and I havent planned on doing so..
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Unread 12 Jan 2006, 18:57   #56
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

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Originally Posted by Yet another and now even more anonymous grey reputation blobs
It's arrogance like this that makes me glad exilition have pounded you two rounds straight.
It's not exactly arrogance but a plain and simple evaluation of what we have seen in the past. Admittedly, I might err on the estimation of DOS as there are no records in the book for them, but 9 out of 10 new alliances tend to fall apart during a round again - the rate is much higher for those alliances under pressure.

And on a sidenote: I am not 1up anymore - so sorry but you didn't really pound _my_ ass.
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Last edited by Heartless; 12 Jan 2006 at 19:21.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 10:55   #57
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
NewDawn cannot be counted as competition for #1. They rely on one person running their military and usually drop dead after 2 nights of full scale incoming.

Angels cannot be counted as competition for #1. They got too much internal disagreement, too many egos trying to fight each other.

LCH can be counted as competition for #1. I don't know how successfull their so called rebuild was, or whether it even was one, but round 15 has nicely shown that without incoming they can still play quite a decent round. Question is will they drop dead like in round 14 because nobody is around to help them - and will they be willed and active enough to try and win?

1up can be counted as competition for #1. Look at their history, enough said. The only things to stop them are an alliance like eXilition or 1up combined with a bunch of lower-ranked alliances jumping in on the '1up can be beaten' course; and of course their own activity.

DOS will probably pull an Insomnia considering they will most likely disband once eXilition returns in round 17 to use the new-grown anti-1up feeling to win their third round.
Clueless as always Heartless ... keep it up !!
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 12:43   #58
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
Honestly, if you put it into perspective, 1up really only finished low last round because:
1. A very active alliance hit them continuosly from start to finish. 1up were dead and exil still hit them.
2. The inactivity resulting from this, put them below the normal activity level needed to finish top 3-4.

Angels/Newdawn/Whoever, will not hit 1up like exil did. Which is normal. Giving 1up a chance to expand expotentially. Everyone will be running around screaming "I'M solo, we are SOLO!!", and 1up will have the best gals raids, basically outroiding everyone else. In this scenario I can see 1up taking the easy win. Simply, because they are the most active out of current alliances, by default of launching ships everynight, they could win. There are many scenarios in which they could lose, but the competition, really hasn't evolved, in a sense that 1up will be fighting the same people, in the same fashion, as they did in RD 14. I can see Newdawn, avoiding politics again. I can see angels being forced to fight 1up, I can see LCH avoiding politics, and I can see 1up winning. I also can see angels winning also, but it all comes down to activity if you think about it. Noone helping anyone, whoever gets big the fastest wins. And due to previous experience, when there is no Exil, the most active alliance is 1up.
Take a loot at this.

Seems like Angels was the alliance that made the most rapid growths last round, when they were not being hit, though NewDawn and eXilition had good nights as well, I see Angels as the most consistent roiders of the last round. Now, I realize this graph will not give a good measure of 1up, but I can't see why you would see 1up as so superior, except for a great organization, and a good HC. Skill and activity can only go to a certain amount - noone can land each attack no matter how much knowlegde of stats they have - noone can be on 24 hours a day all round. If it all comes down to stamina and morale, 1up might very well win, but it isn't a given that they will outroid the others on a way to victory. In fact, if the round will be all about galraids and roiding, I can see both Dos, Angels and LCH growing at very rapid pace, as that will be all about actvity. Ship combo's and setup's will be common knowledge anyway.

However, the politics is what will determine the round. I fear ninja-napping/allying more than I fear being outroided. I know my own alliance can stand up against most others (of the current alliances, mind you) in a 1 vs. 1 scenario, but there's bound to be intervention from the outside. Like last round showed, some alliances are a lot better at having the politics go their way - Angels was not one of those alliances, and I believe we will play on our own strength again, rather than begging others for help (ie. nap/full alliance). I think we will, once again be forced to wage wars, while others remain unaligned, benefitting from easy roids from all sides.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 12:51   #59
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Wow, let's play the "guess when Angels first got any real incoming" game.

With eXil and 1up kicking two shades of shit out of each other, it's not exactly a suprise that NewDawn and Angels made mighty big gains at the start of the round.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 13:13   #60
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Wow, let's play the "guess when Angels first got any real incoming" game.

With eXil and 1up kicking two shades of shit out of each other, it's not exactly a suprise that NewDawn and Angels made mighty big gains at the start of the round.
eXilition were making great gains from that war, 1up was not. We decided to hit eXilition while they already had another enemy, to try to make the greatest damage to them, and to try denting our contenders for #1. It was a step, I believe noone else would have taken, and if noone had done that, eXilition would have eaten the other alliances one by one, until it was decided that eXilition had won, at wich point they would have tried to clean the top 50 planetrank of other alliances, or set themselves another goal.

Angels could have tried taking the NewDawn path - no friends, no enemies, but I believe the round wouldn't have lasted half as long if we did. I think we did the right choice, even if it caused our demise last round.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 13:55   #61
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Clueless as always Heartless ... keep it up !!
What is your problem? Angels isn't #1 alliance material, they are a good alliance but managing to finish at number one? Not bloody likely with a DC whoms hobby is to push other DC's out of their running calls just to overcover himself and some other selected members.“

What Angels lacks is the discipline and the stamina, which is probably something Heartless is pointing at - we all know Angels got quite some skill.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 14:05   #62
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methedrine
What is your problem? Angels isn't #1 alliance material, they are a good alliance but managing to finish at number one?
Who is then? If Angels isn't #1 material, then the only alliance that can win is 1up. Angels is very capable of winning as long as they avoid any big disasters (such as alliance falling apart etc). So you're wrong.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 14:19   #63
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
NewDawn cannot be counted as competition for #1. They rely on one person running their military and usually drop dead after 2 nights of full scale incoming.
ND have stated that they're planning on being shit this round, so either they're underplaying their hand, or you're correct.

Quote:
Angels cannot be counted as competition for #1. They got too much internal disagreement, too many egos trying to fight each other.
This is incorrect. While there were some bad moves, Angels showed itself as a contender last round.

Quote:
LCH can be counted as competition for #1. I don't know how successfull their so called rebuild was, or whether it even was one, but round 15 has nicely shown that without incoming they can still play quite a decent round. Question is will they drop dead like in round 14 because nobody is around to help them - and will they be willed and active enough to try and win?
I find it hard to believe that you rate Angels, who fought the entire round and ended 3rd, under LCH who collected roids all round and ended 4th. Yes, LCH are a contender, but so are Angels.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 14:42   #64
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Angels will be competition for #1, just as 1up, DoS, LCH and ND will be (whatever ND say).

However, qebab, Angels managed very good gains some nights (like every other alliance) but were unable to ever hold onto them. Until you can, then I'm not sure you can expect to finish #1.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 14:45   #65
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Angels will be competition for #1, just as 1up, DoS, LCH and ND will be (whatever ND say).

However, qebab, Angels managed very good gains some nights (like every other alliance) but were unable to ever hold onto them. Until you can, then I'm not sure you can expect to finish #1.
The case chika described, however, was a scenario where 1up wins by simply outroiding every other alliance. I stated that I disagree, and why I disagree, that 1up should be so much better roiders than everyone else. And I think that there will be wars, wich will lead to some excitement - a 1up win is not given already.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 15:48   #66
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Wow, let's play the "guess when Angels first got any real incoming" game.

With eXil and 1up kicking two shades of shit out of each other, it's not exactly a suprise that NewDawn and Angels made mighty big gains at the start of the round.
Idiot ... Seriously I'm tired of you pple knowing shit all claiming we had no decent incommings yet ... you know nothing and your posts are worthless. Yes I'm pissed off +and yes this post is a flame but you keep finding excuses and gimmick reasons just so you'll never have to admit you're wrong or that Angels IS quality.

What is it that we need to do? I'll form an Anti Angels block next round and then I'll devote my online time in twatting my own alliance so you Sir, yes you, can be happy and claim that we had heavy incs ....

Keep these nonsence posts up and soon pple will think you're MotoX's brother ... cause he's the king of clueless posts.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 15:50   #67
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

From what I hear about DLR going solo and NewDawn not playing this round activly I am gonna guess that the only alliance capable of getting close to 1up is gonna be Angels and LCH.. But I am quite sure that without the proper preperations noone can beat 1up.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 15:54   #68
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methedrine
What is your problem? Angels isn't #1 alliance material, they are a good alliance but managing to finish at number one? Not bloody likely with a DC whoms hobby is to push other DC's out of their running calls just to overcover himself and some other selected members.“

What Angels lacks is the discipline and the stamina, which is probably something Heartless is pointing at - we all know Angels got quite some skill.
An alliance doesn't fall or succeed because of 1 DC. What you know about Angels is some outside, 2nd hand rumours and perceptions. You don't know their motives, you don't know their goals, you don't know their behavior. You basicly know nothing becides the things you see.

And things aren't always as they seem to be, especially in PA.
Heartless knows equally nothing about Angels. He can have an opinion about us and base his assumptions on that. Fair enough. But it is my right to call him utterly clueless because guess what ... I know better what's going on inside Angels then he does.

We are #1 material. We're just not as good as Exilition or 1up YET. On some points we're equal or even better in the overall look, those 2 alliance outplay us. But that's what this game is all about. This is a challenge for Angels and this is what drives us to win this game.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 15:57   #69
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
From what I hear about DLR going solo and NewDawn not playing this round activly I am gonna guess that the only alliance capable of getting close to 1up is gonna be Angels and LCH.. But I am quite sure that without the proper preperations noone can beat 1up.
Well, then you know of all alliances, Angels is most of the time one of those alliances that prepare pretty much everything into detail
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 16:01   #70
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Well, then you know of all alliances, Angels is most of the time one of those alliances that prepare pretty much everything into detail
I have always admired Angels for their playing style, but that is also what is bad with Angels. They are not really an "alliance" just a group of individuals who wants to do good. If Angels manage to get their members abit more organised and say yes when the HC says then they will be as good as 1up.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 16:02   #71
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Angels will be competition for #1, just as 1up, DoS, LCH and ND will be (whatever ND say).

However, qebab, Angels managed very good gains some nights (like every other alliance) but were unable to ever hold onto them. Until you can, then I'm not sure you can expect to finish #1.
Who DID hold onto roids last round seriously? with 60% xan it was literally impossible not to go into the red.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 16:08   #72
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I have always admired Angels for their playing style, but that is also what is bad with Angels. They are not really an "alliance" just a group of individuals who wants to do good. If Angels manage to get their members abit more organised and say yes when the HC says then they will be as good as 1up.
I think you underestimate our core. Sure we have and had members who didn't really know the meaning of loyalty and dedication ... but all in all I wouldn't wanna trade our core with any other alliance's core.

We're more then a bunch of individuals who wanna do good.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 16:18   #73
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
The case chika described, however, was a scenario where 1up wins by simply outroiding every other alliance. I stated that I disagree, and why I disagree, that 1up should be so much better roiders than everyone else. And I think that there will be wars, wich will lead to some excitement - a 1up win is not given already.
When I say this, I'm looking at 1up's very strong roiding at the end of Round 12 and throughout Round 14. Despite not being biased due to not being a member of either alliance, it's very hard to work out exactly who is a better roider.

I've said again and again that Angels need to make a form step-up - not necessarily a class step-up. I've always felt that politics has been your weak point, not your military. But of course, we'll disagree on this thanks for a sensible reply back, unlike some people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki
Who DID hold onto roids last round seriously? with 60% xan it was literally impossible not to go into the red.
A good point made far better than a so far unnamed player who resorts to flames when he can't get his own way.

Last round was very tough - but if you look at Sandmans, Angels were far more up and down than the other top 5, who follow more of a straight line. In essence, you had very good nights and then very bad nights, perhaps in response to those good nights. Just my perspective, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Idiot ... Seriously I'm tired of you pple knowing shit all claiming we had no decent incommings yet ... you know nothing and your posts are worthless. Yes I'm pissed off +and yes this post is a flame but you keep finding excuses and gimmick reasons just so you'll never have to admit you're wrong or that Angels IS quality.

What is it that we need to do? I'll form an Anti Angels block next round and then I'll devote my online time in twatting my own alliance so you Sir, yes you, can be happy and claim that we had heavy incs ....

Keep these nonsence posts up and soon pple will think you're MotoX's brother ... cause he's the king of clueless posts.
Kj, you wonder why you don't have a great reputation and then you deliver this corker. Stop throwing your toys out of the pram, stop throwing a tantrum and hand over politics to alch/Alki/qebab. It's for you and your alliance's own good, it really is.

Angels may not be FAnG any more, but you're still FAnG to the core - with all the childishness that goes along with that.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 16:24   #74
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
And things aren't always as they seem to be, especially in PA.
Heartless knows equally nothing about Angels. He can have an opinion about us and base his assumptions on that. Fair enough. But it is my right to call him utterly clueless because guess what ... I know better what's going on inside Angels then he does.
Actually calling him utterly clueless is inaccurate. What you'd have to say is that he's operating without all necessary information. Of course any member, or more certainly HC, of any alliance can say this about pretty much anyone when they comment on their alliance. It's not really so much a refutation of the argument as a refusal to acknowledge that any argument in this area can be valid. It's sort of like the argumentum ad verecundiam, which is a very tricky fallacy. All said one should not be so hasty to dismiss.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 16:35   #75
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Kj, you wonder why you don't have a great reputation and then you deliver this corker. Stop throwing your toys out of the pram, stop throwing a tantrum and hand over politics to alch/Alki/qebab. It's for you and your alliance's own good, it really is.

Angels may not be FAnG any more, but you're still FAnG to the core - with all the childishness that goes along with that.
First of all, this isn't politics. this is me replying to the nonsence you wrote. Secondly, I don't wonder why I don't have a great reputation on AD. Infact I couldn't be more happy with my reputation here. I don't mind if you dislike me, I however do mind when you post crap about Angels.

You know nothing about Angels, don't ever try to claim as if you know what(s best for me. If my alliance wants me to shut up on AD they'll pm me on IRC as they are the ones to know what's best for Angels, certainly not you.

Ofcourse I still have alot of FAnG in me ... I founded that alliance and ran it during several rounds. I like how you try to portrait me as a the rotten apple in Angels by claiming I don't have the Angels spirit ... good comedy.

I don't handle our politics. Alki nor Qebab do either. Just because they, and me, post alot on AD doesn't mean we handle politics. Politics imo is dealing with other alliances. Asfar as I know, that happens on IRC rather then in here ... I could be wrong though ...

And call me childish ... now that's mature. I posted that insult post because I was genuinly pissed off at you because I'm SO tired of hearing things from pple that have no clue about what they post. If you post an opinion about Angels, that's fine. But it is my right to counter it and call you clueless because when it comes to Angels, I know whether you make sence or not.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 16:39   #76
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Actually calling him utterly clueless is inaccurate. What you'd have to say is that he's operating without all necessary information. Of course any member, or more certainly HC, of any alliance can say this about pretty much anyone when they comment on their alliance. It's not really so much a refutation of the argument as a refusal to acknowledge that any argument in this area can be valid. It's sort of like the argumentum ad verecundiam, which is a very tricky fallacy. All said one should not be so hasty to dismiss.
JBG, calling him clueless or saying he's operating without all the nescessary information is the same really. Only difference is that the first approach is the harsh one, the other other is the diplomatic one.

I'm not diplomatic, I prefer the harsh one, especially since he genuinly managed to annoy me. I read his post and I concluded he was wrong, not even close to the reality and I pointed that out to him.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 16:46   #77
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
JBG, calling him clueless or saying he's operating without all the nescessary information is the same really. Only difference is that the first approach is the harsh one, the other other is the diplomatic one.

I'm not diplomatic, I prefer the harsh one, especially since he genuinly managed to annoy me. I read his post and I concluded he was wrong, not even close to the reality and I pointed that out to him.
Nah dude calling him clueless implies he knows nothing. This would not be the case. He's just not as informed as say, you.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 16:48   #78
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Seriously I'm tired of you pple knowing shit all claiming we had no decent incommings yet ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
With eXil and 1up kicking two shades of shit out of each other, it's not exactly a suprise that NewDawn and Angels made mighty big gains at the start of the round.
:/
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 16:49   #79
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Kjeldoran, you are the AD face of Angels - far more so than alch (who officially handles your politics). Without putting a disclaimer on every post you make, then this will remain the case. You're not a member, you're HC - and so when you make a post, it's expected that you are representing Angels. It's like being a real-life politician - along with the rider that with great power comes great responsibility.

AD can be politics just as much as IRC is. Why would anyone bother with propaganda on AD if it wasn't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
And call me childish ... now that's mature. I posted that insult post because I was genuinly pissed off at you because I'm SO tired of hearing things from pple that have no clue about what they post. If you post an opinion about Angels, that's fine. But it is my right to counter it and call you clueless because when it comes to Angels, I know whether you make sence or not.
Whenever I've said things about Angels, I've backed them up. I've provided reasons for them, or where I've made snappy one-liner posts, then I've had reasons to back up what I'm saying. Alki and qebab have done the same in this thread when opposing what I'm saying in a friendly and sensible manner.

Anyone can be pissed off at someone. I'll admit that when lokken and I were disputing how successful Vengeance was in Round 15, he riled me. But the key is to know that this has happened, and to let that pass you by - to post when you've calmed down, otherwise you can only make an ass out of yourself.

Quote:
I'm SO tired of hearing things from pple that have no clue about what they post.
I suppose my posting that you will be a contender for #1 fits into this category, does it?

Quote:
If you post an opinion about Angels, that's fine. But it is my right to counter it and call you clueless because when it comes to Angels, I know whether you make sence or not.
You do have a right to counter, but a right to call me clueless? That'll only be found under freedom of speech, not under freedom to argue properly.

As for you knowing whether I'm right about Angels, you may be able to do so regarding internal affairs but I'm not sure you can say the same about my perspective on Angels. What you seem to be saying is that your opinion alone is the truth about Angels, and that's just silly. Everyone likes to believe in themselves, but you've got to balance how you look at yourselves with how others perceive you in order to get the right answer. This situation isn't dissimilar to an alcoholic always being the last to admit his problem.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 16:51   #80
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Nah dude calling him clueless implies he knows nothing. This would not be the case. He's just not as informed as say, you.
Hence when he's talking about Angels ... he's clueless. As I claim him to be.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 16:55   #81
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

"Not as informed" is a comparative.
"Clueless" is a superlative in this context - and it wasn't what JBG said.

So don't use his posts to back up what you're trying to say if you're not going to agree with him. For more, read the post above yours.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 16:57   #82
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
And things aren't always as they seem to be, especially in PA.
Heartless knows equally nothing about Angels. He can have an opinion about us and base his assumptions on that. Fair enough. But it is my right to call him utterly clueless because guess what ... I know better what's going on inside Angels then he does.
Oh right, I forgot that Angels ain't FAnG ... even though the people running it are the same. And the FAnG problem was already that the people running it were imcapable of enforcing some set rules. For instance, you'd never touch anyone who is a good friend of Irvine - no matter how bad he behaves - simply because Irvine is your backbone when it comes to DC'ing, and when you piss him off too heavily he'll just leave you hanging there.

Correct me if I am wrong on it.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 17:05   #83
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Kjeldoran, you are the AD face of Angels - far more so than alch (who officially handles your politics). Without putting a disclaimer on every post you make, then this will remain the case. You're not a member, you're HC - and so when you make a post, it's expected that you are representing Angels. It's like being a real-life politician - along with the rider that with great power comes great responsibility.

AD can be politics just as much as IRC is. Why would anyone bother with propaganda on AD if it wasn't?


Whenever I've said things about Angels, I've backed them up. I've provided reasons for them, or where I've made snappy one-liner posts, then I've had reasons to back up what I'm saying. Alki and qebab have done the same in this thread when opposing what I'm saying in a friendly and sensible manner.

Anyone can be pissed off at someone. I'll admit that when lokken and I were disputing how successful Vengeance was in Round 15, he riled me. But the key is to know that this has happened, and to let that pass you by - to post when you've calmed down, otherwise you can only make an ass out of yourself.


I suppose my posting that you will be a contender for #1 fits into this category, does it?


You do have a right to counter, but a right to call me clueless? That'll only be found under freedom of speech, not under freedom to argue properly.

As for you knowing whether I'm right about Angels, you may be able to do so regarding internal affairs but I'm not sure you can say the same about my perspective on Angels. What you seem to be saying is that your opinion alone is the truth about Angels, and that's just silly. Everyone likes to believe in themselves, but you've got to balance how you look at yourselves with how others perceive you in order to get the right answer. This situation isn't dissimilar to an alcoholic always being the last to admit his problem.
It is not my responability if pple take what I post in here as politics. When I make an official Angels statement, you'll know by the tone of my post. I don't think I need a disclaimer with every post for pple to realize this.

So I'm a person that replies in the heat of the moment, rather then waiting to calm down. We're not perfect, I guess that's just something you have to deal with when I post (or comment on it).

I do know more then others about how Angels works, what the goals are, why we do or don't do several things etc. When I counter what others say, I use the knowledge I have about Angels and that knowledge is greater then the knowledge of any outsider might posess as that's always 2nd hand info.

About your post, you actually KNOW on which post I went all crazy? It was the post you claim we had no decent incs. That's bollocks. I know that cause I know our EXACT number of reported calls during the entire round ... This isn't what you like to call "outside perception" ... it's based on simple facts and I posess them, you don't hence my reply.

Sure it might be harsh but in all fairness, whether you made that post or someone else ... I'd have reacted the same.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 17:09   #84
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Oh right, I forgot that Angels ain't FAnG ... even though the people running it are the same. And the FAnG problem was already that the people running it were imcapable of enforcing some set rules. For instance, you'd never touch anyone who is a good friend of Irvine - no matter how bad he behaves - simply because Irvine is your backbone when it comes to DC'ing, and when you piss him off too heavily he'll just leave you hanging there.

Correct me if I am wrong on it.
Irvine's not playing r16 ... Irvine is an HC and the best DC in this game. that however does not mean his friends are protected. Infact, some of his friends that applied got rejected by me.

We're not FAnG. You know NOTHING about us. You assume we're the same pple as we were 4 rounds ago, when you ran off like a coward during the round ... not the first time you did I hear.

Pple change, alliances change. Angels was founded for a reason, not just to 'rename' FAnG. If you believe that to be the case then I'm sure every single Angel will tell you differenty. Then again, I'm sure you'll still claim you know better when it comes to Angels, even if all Angels claim differently
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 17:17   #85
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxMilliaN
-Incoherent dribble-
If eXil can't play because of IRL commitments, then please don't use your spare time bragging on the forums all day plzthxta.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 17:20   #86
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
eXilition were making great gains from that war, 1up was not. We decided to hit eXilition while they already had another enemy, to try to make the greatest damage to them, and to try denting our contenders for #1. It was a step, I believe noone else would have taken, and if noone had done that, eXilition would have eaten the other alliances one by one, until it was decided that eXilition had won, at wich point they would have tried to clean the top 50 planetrank of other alliances, or set themselves another goal.

Angels could have tried taking the NewDawn path - no friends, no enemies, but I believe the round wouldn't have lasted half as long if we did. I think we did the right choice, even if it caused our demise last round.
eX was making great gains from that war but not roidwise, we got alot of 1up incs (and vice versa ofc.) so making our roidgains way less then when we would've gone for galraids. Same for 1up, so I don't really think that graph is a good example of showing who's best roider etc.
Also I do think Angels had alot of help with roiding so well because of the Ministry BG, they are know for their great starts. So next round if Ministry won't play or move somewhere else, Angels will have it alot tougher imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
It is not my responability if pple take what I post in here as politics. When I make an official Angels statement, you'll know by the tone of my post. I don't think I need a disclaimer with every post for pple to realize this.
Not saying u need a disclaimer or anything, but if someone doesn't know you it might be difficult to figure out what tone your post has. (Someone like me for example).
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 17:24   #87
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
eX was making great gains from that war but not roidwise, we got alot of 1up incs (and vice versa ofc.) so making our roidgains way less then when we would've gone for galraids. Same for 1up, so I don't really think that graph is a good example of showing who's best roider etc.
Also I do think Angels had alot of help with roiding so well because of the Ministry BG, they are know for their great starts. So next round if Ministry won't play or move somewhere else, Angels will have it alot tougher imo.
Ministry is not playing with Angels anymore and their members are not superior quality then the other Angels. Nor less either.

I don't think they had a bigger influence to our roidgain then any other Angel member.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 17:24   #88
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
When I say this, I'm looking at 1up's very strong roiding at the end of Round 12 and throughout Round 14. Despite not being biased due to not being a member of either alliance, it's very hard to work out exactly who is a better roider.

I've said again and again that Angels need to make a form step-up - not necessarily a class step-up. I've always felt that politics has been your weak point, not your military. But of course, we'll disagree on this thanks for a sensible reply back, unlike some people.
'
Those were rounds wich they won, though, and from what I am lead to believe, LCH switched targetting from 1up to ND at the end of round 12, so they had pretty much some "time off" when that roiding occured. Round 14, they hardly had much opposition, from what I gather. Clever political play, and a good setting gave them an easier round than the other ones they have won. Neither rounds are good measurements. You could say Angels were great roiders in round 13, and round 15 (rapid gains, a lot of the times), but those were rounds where the environment was a lot different. The point I was trying to make, was that I disagreed with chika's post;

Quote:
Originally Posted by chika
But there are about 10-15 people in 1up, that if you allow them to flourish, they will out roid just about anyone, and with lack of proper activity from many pa alliances, these 10-15 people could carry 1up to victory.
As for our Military, I hardly think there are many alliances that can match it. It is a tad unorganized, at the moment, and we had our bad times last round, but it is being worked on. More consistent TP times and some other things I won't go into detail about. I can't answer for how it has been the other rounds (disregard 2 weeks of round 12, I have never played pax before last round), so I can't really reply to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I've always felt that politics has been your weak point, not your military.
And I can repeat once again, our Military is good, but it needs polishment. Activity and dedication is great.
For politics... well, last round, we did not really have any. Sure, we did have common enemies with others, and we chose a time to strike at eXilition that we thought would benefit us the most, but apart from that, we didn't take many political steps. I have been told, that was our way of doing it, and I have to admit, I see room for "improvement" with regards to rankings, but I still think we shouldn't have played it much different. Except for the war with ND, I agree with everything we did regarding politics last round. I really wouldn't have it much difference - some hard fought wars, entertainment, and fun.

I guess I can agree on the politics issue, if the game was only about winning. For some people, I guess it is. For me, it is not, anymore. I learnt my lesson. Winning at all costs is not something I find much enjoyment in.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 17:25   #89
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
Not saying u need a disclaimer or anything, but if someone doesn't know you it might be difficult to figure out what tone your post has. (Someone like me for example).
I'm sure you'll catch up soon enough m8
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 17:33   #90
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
eX was making great gains from that war but not roidwise, we got alot of 1up incs (and vice versa ofc.) so making our roidgains way less then when we would've gone for galraids. Same for 1up, so I don't really think that graph is a good example of showing who's best roider etc.
Also I do think Angels had alot of help with roiding so well because of the Ministry BG, they are know for their great starts. So next round if Ministry won't play or move somewhere else, Angels will have it alot tougher imo.
There were Ministry members left, playing towards the end of the round. But the majority, had by then quit. The Ministry BG were all coming from a different game, where roidloss means you can't win. In this one, you can. The people remaining from last round, are those who kept playing, regardless of the odds, and those who're, in my opinion, best suited to play a game like this, were stamina is more important than intensity. The round will last too long for a "great start" to matter. In fact, if someone runs of during the start, they might very well get hit hard because of it, to get back in line for the top spot.

Similarly to that graph, I don't think the other rounds provided by other people give good examples. I just tried to show people my perspective. Few alliances made so swift gains (and also so swift losses, I must admit) as Angels did last round. I don't think we're so poor that 1up can simply outroid us, and get the victory without fighting any wars.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 17:43   #91
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

I am not convinced that Angels lack the quality to win. I am however also not convinced that they have the self-discipline and patience to win (I am referring to the alliance as a whole, and not any form of conflict/lack of control between/over members and/or command).
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 17:49   #92
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Irvine is [...] the best DC in this game. that however does not mean his friends are protected. Infact, some of his friends that applied got rejected by me.
I do doubt that he is the best DC in this game - seen a lot of better ones the past rounds. If you finally managed to reject some of his friends - good job. Looks like Angels are learning or have learnt from FAnG's mistakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
We're not FAnG. You know NOTHING about us. You assume we're the same pple as we were 4 rounds ago, when you ran off like a coward during the round ... not the first time you did I hear.
I wouldn't say I know nothing about Angels (per definition knowing some of the members nicknames is already knowing something ); my assumption is pretty valid considering that when I left - due to large parts of the former Command being utterly shitheads living very high on a different cloud (excluding alch, I pity him for having to run an alliance with people like you) for judging fakenicking as not vital to win a round, supporting a techie which couldnt get anything done half-decently and other stuff - the people in charge were pretty much the same. OK, so Sjor got a bit more influence and 3 or 4 officers left, but in the end you and Irvine still try to be a HC.

Where else did I run away cowardish? From ToT? It's cowardish to leave an alliance which command accuses you of things you never did? You, Sir, were pretty happy to have me join your ranks back in those days and were pretty sad when I left FAnG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Pple change, alliances change. Angels was founded for a reason, not just to 'rename' FAnG. If you believe that to be the case then I'm sure every single Angel will tell you differenty. Then again, I'm sure you'll still claim you know better when it comes to Angels, even if all Angels claim differently
Indeed, people and therefore things driven by people change as that is a law of nature.

After all, it's not that Angels aren't a bad alliance. They just ain't #1 material. A #2 or #3 is always in for them, but certainly not a top spot. Feel free to prove me wrong, though - but unless proven different I'll keep my views and thus I guess we agree to disagree until the end of the round.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 17:57   #93
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
I am not convinced that Angels lack the quality to win. I am however also not convinced that they have the self-discipline and patience to win (I am referring to the alliance as a whole, and not any form of conflict/lack of control between/over members and/or command).
Under given circumstances they certainly can win (for instance, LCH and 1up beat the shit out of each other for the full round and Angels are faithfully ignored like ND have been).

The second point, however, renders Angels as a not-so-major threat to an alliance like 1up or LCH.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 18:08   #94
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methedrine
What is your problem?
I can't speak for what Kjeldoran's problem with Heartless' post is, but for me it's quite obvious.

It's the shitty arrogant way he writes about other alliances disregarding any form of context. It is entirely useless to say "alliance xx isn't top material" as it'll depend on a lot of other things.

Another obvious problem is that I feel the post was made to start a flame-fest and nothing else. As much as I sometimes disagree with Kjeldoran's postings (which is fine, ofcourse), it's kind of lame to go all out on him for in which manner he's replying, when you're making it obviously deliberately very hard not to loose his temper. It's like verbally abusing somebody all the time and then act suprised when he decided to give you a smack in the face to get you to shut the hell up. Sure, it's not right of him to punch, but you had it coming. Giving somebody reason to do something is nearly as bad as someone actually acting upon that and doing it. So stop being bloody hypocrits, the lot of you.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 18:14   #95
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

I hope I'm not _very_ wrong here, but in my opinion the biggest difference between Angels and eXilition is that Kaifux is a BC and Irvine is a DC. Kaifux was the only eX HC in round15 and as far as I know Irivine was the most active HC in Angels. I think that eXi's success in round13 was because Kaifux organized most attacks (targetlist wise). In r15 we had a number of new great head BCs (snra, etc) and our military was hampered only by activity. In theory everything was perfect, in practice there wasn't a night when all members attacked.

Onto the point, Angels, even though having great skill, hasn't yet proven to be the best military power in this game. In round 13 I saw amazing coverages of my buddypack mates by Irvine. He was always on and always managed to get some defence for the angels in my gal. Unfortunately Irvine isn't a BC, if he were I'm sure Angels would get higher ranks as in the last rounds defence hasn't really mattered. The attack-biased stats and the XP system favour attacking and defence has become secondary.

What I'm trying to say is that HC's should never underestimate their role and work. If, for example, a mil HC becomes inactive then the attackpower of a given alliance will greatly suffer. The memberbase of the top alliances is rather similar in terms of activity, skill and fanaticism. The firm leadership is the key factor which leads an alliance to victory.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 18:18   #96
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hook
It's the shitty arrogant way he writes about other alliances disregarding any form of context. It is entirely useless to say "alliance xx isn't top material" as it'll depend on a lot of other things.
Keep in mind that english ain't my mothers tongue, and thus it's not always easy to choose the words which do not piss people off.

In the end I'd call it a "sober judgement" from my personal impressions expressed in a simplyfied way instead of arrogance (which would require my original post to be full of overbearing pride which I simply cannot see, sorry).

The again "arrogance" seems to be a catchphrase nowadays that everyone uses to render a person's posting irrelevant. Personal guess is that Godwin's Law needs a new addition. Yes, these last words of my posting can be considered arrogant.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 18:23   #97
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Keep in mind that english ain't my mothers tongue, and thus it's not always easy to choose the words which do not piss people off.

In the end I'd call it a "sober judgement" from my personal impressions expressed in a simplyfied way instead of arrogance (which would require my original post to be full of overbearing pride which I simply cannot see, sorry).

The again "arrogance" seems to be a catchphrase nowadays that everyone uses to render a person's posting irrelevant. Personal guess is that Godwins Law needs a new addition. Yes, these last words of my posting can be considered arrogant.
English is not my mother tongue either, I make my linguistic errors aswell, I try my best to prevent making any, but still... noted.

Arrogance doesn't necesarilly require you to have overbearing pride literally expressed in your postings. 'C'est la ton qui fait la musique', surely an expression you've heard before. It's not always about what you say, it's about HOW you say it aswell. In how you oversimplified your post and your opinion, you were unnecesarry harsh towards other alliances, and without actually providing arguments (other than catchy one-liners) as to which you feel things are the way you're saying.

It's not necesarilly what you said, it's how you oversimplified what you said and the tone that, atleast to me, came across as seemingly very arrogant. Also, it's not the arrogance part that renders your post irrelevant. The 'tone' and manner you used while writing your post, portrayed hostility to me, and by oversimplifying, arrogance. The two of them being the key ingredients to start a flame-fest. And I do still feel that was your intention aswell. And yes, posts made with this goal are irrelevant.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 18:26   #98
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hook
The two of them being the key ingredients to start a flame-fest. And I do still feel that was your intention aswell. And yes, posts made with this goal are irrelevant.
Wasn't my intention - next time I resort from stating an opinion without outlining my full reasoning behind it
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 18:37   #99
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
Those were rounds wich they won, though, and from what I am lead to believe, LCH switched targetting from 1up to ND at the end of round 12, so they had pretty much some "time off" when that roiding occured. Round 14, they hardly had much opposition, from what I gather. Clever political play, and a good setting gave them an easier round than the other ones they have won. Neither rounds are good measurements. You could say Angels were great roiders in round 13, and round 15 (rapid gains, a lot of the times), but those were rounds where the environment was a lot different. The point I was trying to make, was that I disagreed with chika's post;
True, and I must admit I anticipated your replies but made the post anyway. Often on AD if you make too good a post that covers all the angles, then you just stop discussion on those points because no-one's got anything left to say . Alliances can only show off their roiding ability when they aren't under heavy attack, and 1up were targetted for all of Round 13 and much of Round 15. Thus the examples I can provide can only really come from the other rounds, which 1up won due to their ability.

One of the big things you can tell about an alliance is what sort of nights they have. For example, in Round 14 VGN's better nights were 6-8%. This round our better nights were 11-12% roid gains, and for us that was a major improvement. In previous rounds, 1up always shined because they had these 11-12% nights more often than anyone else, and that in a roiding round is how to take the #1 spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
I guess I can agree on the politics issue, if the game was only about winning. For some people, I guess it is. For me, it is not, anymore. I learnt my lesson. Winning at all costs is not something I find much enjoyment in.
I see where you're coming from Angels made the correct political moves in aiming for 2nd - but probably didn't take enough of a gamble to aim for #1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
It is not my responability if pple take what I post in here as politics. When I make an official Angels statement, you'll know by the tone of my post. I don't think I need a disclaimer with every post for pple to realize this.
You don't owe a responsibilty to AD, you owe it to Angels. Your posts can be taken as a view into what Angels is thinking, since its HCs make its decisions, and you are one of those HCs. If your own view didn't affect the decsions that Angels takes, then I'd be extremely suprised...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
So I'm a person that replies in the heat of the moment, rather then waiting to calm down. We're not perfect, I guess that's just something you have to deal with when I post (or comment on it).

I do know more then others about how Angels works, what the goals are, why we do or don't do several things etc. When I counter what others say, I use the knowledge I have about Angels and that knowledge is greater then the knowledge of any outsider might posess as that's always 2nd hand info.
Of course you know more about how Angels works - I expect that. However, if you're going to claim that you're going for #1, and then don't (from an outsider's perspective) then people will ask questions. If you respond on the points and not on the people (by calling them clueless), then people would stop asking the questions. Just saying that people don't know what they're talking about, and then offering no evidence to disagree with them, is no way to win an argument or to stop debate on a point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
About your post, you actually KNOW on which post I went all crazy? It was the post you claim we had no decent incs. That's bollocks. I know that cause I know our EXACT number of reported calls during the entire round ... This isn't what you like to call "outside perception" ... it's based on simple facts and I posess them, you don't hence my reply.

Sure it might be harsh but in all fairness, whether you made that post or someone else ... I'd have reacted the same.
Let's take a look at what I actually said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Wow, let's play the "guess when Angels first got any real incoming" game.

With eXil and 1up kicking two shades of shit out of each other, it's not exactly a suprise that NewDawn and Angels made mighty big gains at the start of the round.
This was in response to the talk about Angels being strong early on at roiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran's flame
Idiot ... Seriously I'm tired of you pple knowing shit all claiming we had no decent incommings yet ... you know nothing and your posts are worthless.
I clearly said that you didn't get much incoming until 16th November (when you first got hit). I didn't say that you had no decent incomings all round, even if you did have patches where you were hardly touched.

Thanks to Gate for pointing out your mistake as well.
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Unread 13 Jan 2006, 18:56   #100
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Re: 1UP winners of the free round (round 16) a given fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I see where you're coming from Angels made the correct political moves in aiming for 2nd - but probably didn't take enough of a gamble to aim for #1.
I learnt it from a round, in another game where my galaxy was all about winning. I was being secretive, trusted very few people, and played the game 100% hardcore, with the only aim of winning at all costs. In the end, it costed me a lot more than I had anticipated. When I realized that the relationships to my friends were being hampered by my lack of trust, I decided never to do such a thing ever again. It was a hard learnt lesson, but in hindsight, I value it over most other lessons.

And I think Angels could've made more of an effort in going for a number one spot, but it appears to me as the HC did not want to take those steps. I'm completely fine with that decision. A victory bought at all costs don't taste so sweet to me. I had my share of fun, even being repeatedly owned, losing nearly 6k roids, and falling from a top 20 position to a top 200 in less than a week, I managed to enjoy the round.
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