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Unread 2 May 2010, 13:36   #1
Hude
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Planetarion deterioration procedure

1. smart people explore the limits of game mechanics and find optimal ways of doing things or play the game in an imaginative way
2. stupid people complain about the above mentioned and call it an exploit or cheating
3. a hard coded limit is introduced, game mechanics are changed
4. the game becomes a lot duller than it was before
5. goto 1

Note that 1 will still happen and the people in 2 will still be losers.
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Unread 2 May 2010, 13:45   #2
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

I say we ban smart people.
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Unread 2 May 2010, 23:28   #3
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

Ahh, so thats why I was closed :-P
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Unread 3 May 2010, 01:21   #4
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hude View Post
1. smart people explore the limits of game mechanics and find optimal ways of doing things or play the game in an imaginative way
2. stupid people complain about the above mentioned and call it an exploit or cheating
3. a hard coded limit is introduced, game mechanics are changed
4. the game becomes a lot duller than it was before
5. goto 1

Note that 1 will still happen and the people in 2 will still be losers.
No, the deterioration of PA is due to nothing actually ever changing, we get minor tweaks in formulae and a change of stats each round.

Doing unexpected and unanticipated things when the rules are changed are bound to get nerfed, as they wasnt intended with the original rule change and are not necessarily balanced nor in the direction the rule change was intended to go.
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Unread 3 May 2010, 02:39   #5
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

I just wanted to reply that I'm not going to read your reply.
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Unread 3 May 2010, 07:39   #6
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hude View Post
I just wanted to reply that I'm not going to read your reply.
Part of being in group #1 is that we don't read replies from people in group #2.
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Unread 3 May 2010, 09:33   #7
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
Ahh, so thats why I was closed :-P
What, Spinner getting closed in his own game-shocker? :-)
Maybe it's old news, don't know. Haven't been around the past 3 years.
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Unread 3 May 2010, 09:58   #8
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

Yes.
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Unread 3 May 2010, 10:58   #9
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

Shame I wasn't there to point and laugh but ok :-)
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Unread 3 May 2010, 11:36   #10
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

There was a thread about it, but I cba linking to it.
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Unread 3 May 2010, 11:40   #11
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=198446
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 3 May 2010, 18:00   #12
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hude View Post
1. smart people explore the limits of game mechanics and find optimal ways of doing things or play the game in an imaginative way
2. stupid people complain about the above mentioned and call it an exploit or cheating
3. a hard coded limit is introduced, game mechanics are changed
4. the game becomes a lot duller than it was before
5. goto 1

Note that 1 will still happen and the people in 2 will still be losers.
To be honest, we did not think 10 years ahead when this game was created.
The original concept had some fundamental flaws from day #1, and truth be told, PA has always suffered from them. The way I see it, a game where every successful player leaves behind 100 devastated players will have a problem of maintaining its user-base. The only way it can work is if there is an eternal flood of new players joining at a steady pace, so that these 100 users can feed off the newcomers, who in turn can feed off new newcomers...

Over the years several things have been done, through races, tweaking shipstats, adding cov-ops, modifying scanning, and a lot more that I might not know about since I left, this single fundamental flaw has never been rectified. Even though we had little choice, the turn to P2P paved the way for the demise. That stopped the stream of new users quite efficiently.

"Fixing" such a fundamental problem is probably almost impossible, except that I don't believe much in the word "impossible".
As long as the game is not free, and as long as the game does not enjoy any benefits of modern online marketing, it would take a lot of resources to lift PA back into "the scene". It is probably too late anyhow, but it saddens me that the will doesn't seem to be there to even try. Surely, the "hosting-costs" must be very close to "nothing" with the current user-base...

Oh well. Not my cup of tea anymore, of course.
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Unread 3 May 2010, 18:13   #13
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

Once a tea-drinker; always a tea-drinker.
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Unread 3 May 2010, 23:15   #14
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

Hehe. I just had a cup tbh

I AM more of a coffee-man though!
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Unread 3 May 2010, 23:28   #15
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

Want Oreo's with that?
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Unread 4 May 2010, 00:16   #16
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

Ah, man, Oreo became a father just about a month back! Still lives some 500 kilometers south-west, so I don't see him much, but he is living the good life
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Unread 4 May 2010, 04:49   #17
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner View Post

"Fixing" such a fundamental problem is probably almost impossible, except that I don't believe much in the word "impossible".
As long as the game is not free, and as long as the game does not enjoy any benefits of modern online marketing, it would take a lot of resources to lift PA back into "the scene". It is probably too late anyhow, but it saddens me that the will doesn't seem to be there to even try. Surely, the "hosting-costs" must be very close to "nothing" with the current user-base....
I disagree that the game is unfixable. The problem is the fundamental business model needs to be adjusted, and as you note it needs to be brought into the 21st century. A new stream of interested players could be brought to the game and it could flourish. Naturally the place to have done this was a few years ago when facebook started allowing games, but there are other mediums whereby PA could become popular again.

To succeed the game would need some creativity re-injected into it along with a clear well thought out business plan. I have ideas on how to do this, but heck, since zPeti clearly doesn't care to spend any time with the player base, why should I bother suggesting things he'd just reject or ignore anyway? I'll save my ideas for those who really care (and can make money with them).
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Unread 4 May 2010, 08:43   #18
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
The only way it can work is if there is an eternal flood of new players joining at a steady pace, so that these 100 users can feed off the newcomers, who in turn can feed off new newcomers...
That and the fact that there are alot more similar text based games compared to 10 years ago.
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Unread 4 May 2010, 09:31   #19
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

Except that they aren't really all that text-based any more.
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Unread 4 May 2010, 09:35   #20
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Except that they aren't really all that text-based any more.
Well, you know what I mean :-)

There's simply more variation, a wider range of alternatives, to this game. Hence it's unrealistic to assume Planetarion can still attract the same number of gamers as it could in the old days (even if more people have access to the game now then they had 10 years ago).
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Unread 4 May 2010, 12:21   #21
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Except that they aren't really all that text-based any more.
Ah, the Imperial-Boredom-game
I have been playing it for a while too (research), and I keep wondering when the game itself is about to begin...I've been building infrastructure for 2 months now, colonized my second planet, and eagerly await the point where doing anything but building is a viable choice. At first, I was medium impressed with the graphics, but that didn't last long. Now I just keep hanging on, waiting for something to happen while I build and build and build and build...
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Unread 4 May 2010, 12:54   #22
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

In truth, starting now is a bit like signing up for a round of PA at tick 800. I started playing in August last year, I have 21 planets, am 32nd on population and basically there's only about 10 players in my universe that I need to be genuinely afraid of, 7 of whom my league is napped with and most of the rest are just turtling. Making the game interesting depends a lot on:
1) being bigger than your neighbours,
2) taking the initiative, and
3) being in a league that's at war with somone.

Just be glad you haven't been turned into someone's farm. :P

You're right though, depending on how you prioritize, it can literally take half a year before you max out the buildings on your core planets. Only at that point are you forced to build ships, though obviously there's nothing that's stopping you doing it earlier, which is especially important if you're not in the middle of nowhere. Looking at my own empire, out of my 21 planets, only 10 are totally finished.

Seriously though, build some ships and attack someone. It'll probably go horribly wrong, but at least you'll be doing something.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 4 May 2010 at 13:00.
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Unread 4 May 2010, 13:00   #23
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
That and the fact that there are alot more similar text based games compared to 10 years ago.
Seriously though, we have reached a point where this kind of games are not "text-based" anymore. With modern browsers and the use of javascript, the lines between "browser-games" and "installed games" will be blurred out a lot.

So PA is "fixable", by all means. Just rewrite the entire GUI to something modern, change the business-model into something sustainable in todays market, add some more "late game gameplay" (Something special for alliances over a certain size?), a little "real-time effect gameplay" (some tactical options I can change between attack-ticks in a multiple-tick attack) and you're on the right track.
But the will and ability to do so is not there today.
Preferably, it would be nice to get rid of the problem of putting all the eggs in the same basket as well, but that would dramatically change the game to something very unplanetarionish.
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Unread 4 May 2010, 13:10   #24
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
Seriously though, we have reached a point where this kind of games are not "text-based" anymore. With modern browsers and the use of javascript, the lines between "browser-games" and "installed games" will be blurred out a lot.

So PA is "fixable", by all means. Just rewrite the entire GUI to something modern, change the business-model into something sustainable in todays market, add some more "late game gameplay" (Something special for alliances over a certain size?), a little "real-time effect gameplay" (some tactical options I can change between attack-ticks in a multiple-tick attack) and you're on the right track.
But the will and ability to do so is not there today.
Preferably, it would be nice to get rid of the problem of putting all the eggs in the same basket as well, but that would dramatically change the game to something very unplanetarionish.
In all honnesty, I've not played this game for nearly 4 years. The point remains that it's a browser game, for which you need to pay. I'm sure it's no longer the pure text based game it was 4-5 years ago.

I still stay with my statement. There is a large variety of games nowadays which were not so available 10 years ago. Also, PA is hardly unique in it's gerne anymore, is it?

5 years ago there were alot of PA copies out there, all of them less succesful then the original game. Nonetheless, it was a reason of the vastly dropping numbers (amongst having to pay for it). The first few rounds, you like what .... 60-70k players? When I quit (r16) there were like what 2k gamers?

Imo it's not even about fixing the game or not, it's just how the situation is atm. Sure, you could apply all the things you wrote down but like you said, is it still Planetarion?

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Unread 4 May 2010, 13:42   #25
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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I'm sure it's no longer the pure text based game it was 4-5 years ago.
Err, well actually...
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Unread 4 May 2010, 13:50   #26
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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When I quit (r16) there were like what 2k gamers?
Yeah. It deteriorated from that a little, and I think it's been more or less below 1000 paid planets per round for quite a while, steadily random walking it's way towards zero.
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Unread 4 May 2010, 14:00   #27
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

So there are like what? 10-15 alliances left in the game? :-)
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Unread 4 May 2010, 14:03   #28
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

Nine out of ten top10 alliances have more than 50 members. Most of the alliances below top10 aren't really (statistically speaking) significantly different from having zero members. It's been like this for a while, though, from an outsider perspective, so it may have reached some stagnation/choke point.
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Unread 4 May 2010, 14:54   #29
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

In all honnesty, when I left PA I didn't expect the game to last until now. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed the game but we had a diminishing playerbase round after round.

Makes you wonder if it's still fun or "challenging" to play with less then 1k players.

I mean, ending top 5 as alliance during round 1-10 was an achievement, as you had over 100 alliances and several thousands of gamers. I assume nowadays, if you end #5 you're classed as terribly bad because well ... there are only 10 decent alliances

Also, I guess ending top100 as your planet has lost all significance aswell then, aye?
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Unread 4 May 2010, 15:09   #30
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Also, I guess ending top100 as your planet has lost all significance aswell then, aye?
It's difficult to say, it's subjective perception. Back when I was playing (very) active, 13, 17, 18, 19 and so, it was still relatively competent and aiming for top100 might not have been much, or 5th alliance, but top 10 and the winner alliance were still things fiercely contested for.

On another note, I think what Spinner is missing on his assessment that a hundred ruined planets are left in the trail of a single successful planet is that, at least for me personally, being one of those destroyed people in round 4 or so when I originally started, was the most driving factor making me playing active and trying to climb my way up the food chain to be one of the predators instead.
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Unread 4 May 2010, 15:19   #31
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
It's difficult to say, it's subjective perception. Back when I was playing (very) active, 13, 17, 18, 19 and so, it was still relatively competent and aiming for top100 might not have been much, or 5th alliance, but top 10 and the winner alliance were still things fiercely contested for.

On another note, I think what Spinner is missing on his assessment that a hundred ruined planets are left in the trail of a single successful planet is that, at least for me personally, being one of those destroyed people in round 4 or so when I originally started, was the most driving factor making me playing active and trying to climb my way up the food chain to be one of the predators instead.
Oh all right then.
Please add to my previous statement:
"However, 1 of these might stick around."

I think my point is still fairly valid though.
If you look to the newer and successful games of this type, they have all gone down a path where the 1 to 100 is extremely reduced. In essence, this make the game "less hardcore" and "more mainstream" which is both good and bad, based on how you look at it. As someone said, there are a lot more games out there today, and as long as game decides to be "hardcore" in most aspects, it can not be expected to compete with more mainstream games when it comes to the number of users. And if the number of users is important...
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Unread 4 May 2010, 21:09   #32
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
Oh all right then.
Please add to my previous statement:
"However, 1 of these might stick around."
The problem with this line of thought is that whatever is left of the game is more or less these kinds of people. It's always been the core of the game, and it's what the competitive environment that has created the active community is about.

Quote:
I think my point is still fairly valid though.
If you look to the newer and successful games of this type, they have all gone down a path where the 1 to 100 is extremely reduced. In essence, this make the game "less hardcore" and "more mainstream" which is both good and bad, based on how you look at it.

Of course (the point is valid), but Planetarion as we know it has always been on the hardcore side of the pitch. If it wasn't, it'd probably be a whole lot different. What I mean is, if the active hardcore community was never born, because there would've been no "hardcore" component in the game. I'm guessing what it'd need is some sort of a cross between these: a game less newbie hostile (which is what Planetarion's always been, quite hostile for a new player to enter), but that'd still incorporate a hardcore play component.
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Unread 4 May 2010, 21:13   #33
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

Top 100 planet is still relatively competitive in the sense people will try to go for it. Things like non #1 alliance/gal ranks have lost almost all meaning though.
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Unread 5 May 2010, 08:25   #34
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
Oh all right then.
Please add to my previous statement:
"However, 1 of these might stick around."

I think my point is still fairly valid though.
If you look to the newer and successful games of this type, they have all gone down a path where the 1 to 100 is extremely reduced. In essence, this make the game "less hardcore" and "more mainstream" which is both good and bad, based on how you look at it. As someone said, there are a lot more games out there today, and as long as game decides to be "hardcore" in most aspects, it can not be expected to compete with more mainstream games when it comes to the number of users. And if the number of users is important...
I'm sure that's another strong factor. PA requires you to play hardcore, otherwise you won't cut it (that is if you're aiming for the top seats).

I don't know if it's still the case now, but in the early rounds you had DC's and pref ones from different timezones as 90% of all raids happen during the night (EU time). Members were required to log on late during the evening as then and only then target assignement was done etc. Then they needed to get up during the night to launch their fleets (before pre-launch was available). No wonder most DC's had a burnout at some point.

Members were also required to be able to get contacted at any point during the day/night incase defense is required.

At some point in one's life, you can no longer commit to this and therefor PA is no longer an option (was in my case).
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Unread 5 May 2010, 08:27   #35
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

And Spinner, the number of users is important once the lack of it has a negative impact on the game and the players.
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Unread 5 May 2010, 08:30   #36
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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Top 100 planet is still relatively competitive in the sense people will try to go for it. Things like non #1 alliance/gal ranks have lost almost all meaning though.
That's a shame. Back in the days, there was still honour in finishing top 5 as an alliance, if you had to fight for it. Ofcourse #1 is the winner, everyone else lost but still ...
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Unread 5 May 2010, 10:34   #37
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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And Spinner, the number of users is important once the lack of it has a negative impact on the game and the players.
I merely stated that for a game like Planetarion, the number of players is not only important, but vital, as 90% of the game-play is centered around it.
How fun is it to play PA in "single-player" mode, alone, with no alliance, no friends, like you would play "Elite"?

In Planetarion, the number of players is directly connected to the amount of entertainment that can be found in the game. Maybe not for the top 5 alliances, who will have enough targets regardless, but certainly for the majority, and definitely for potential newcomers.

Never mind me though, I've got work to do
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Unread 30 Jul 2010, 09:38   #38
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

if everyone stopped playing, PA would go bankrupt and then might either

!) Release the code to the masses and could find its way into a group that would expand on new ideas.

2) Release its enslaved players...to find better, more evolved games.
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Unread 30 Jul 2010, 11:09   #39
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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What, Spinner getting closed in his own game-shocker? :-)
Maybe it's old news, don't know. Haven't been around the past 3 years.

He tells lies as well

bigger shocker!
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Unread 30 Jul 2010, 11:13   #40
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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He tells lies as well

bigger shocker!
Not really a shock though. I don't know much people here that haven't lied yet on this forum at one point in time ;-)
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Unread 30 Jul 2010, 12:19   #41
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Re: Planetarion deterioration procedure

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No, the deterioration of chess is due to nothing actually ever changing
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