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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 11:45   #151
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Xan are the strongest race defensively. Their ships are small and cheap, and easier to buy.

Xan Fi isn't totally weak. People will send their sents along to cover for defense vs Harpies, and Arrowheads to hurt Beetles and stop Cutters from firing. Turning the Vipers to EMP if anything makes the Xan Fr fleet stronger, as there will be far more Vipers than Guardians in the universe (Vipers are one of the attack fleet ships) and Guardians aren't eta defence. The Tzen and Vsh obviously have to fire the same ETA so neither is in dominance. Bomber damage has been upped. Zik and Cath should be possible to be taken by the Fr fleet, and Terran with their Cr/Bs fleet out. Xan comes down to a how much you're willing to loose vs Vsh competition.
Seriously Appocomaster. Sents will be used for defence more than attack. And adding arrowheads only give the defenders one more class to defend against wich is more easy since you can add spiders into the mix. I still strongly disagree with you on this one.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 16:05   #152
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Re: Stat changes for R15

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Originally Posted by Kargool
Seriously Appocomaster. Sents will be used for defence more than attack. And adding arrowheads only give the defenders one more class to defend against wich is more easy since you can add spiders into the mix. I still strongly disagree with you on this one.
I haven't played xan however my impression from any xan fi attacking me or gal/ally mates and my DCing duties with my old ally has been that sents in R14 are used more as a def ship rather than an attacking one. However I could be wrong.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 16:07   #153
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Yes, in Round 14 they are.
In Round 15, if they're Fighter class, they won't. They'll be used to scare off defending Sentinals and Harpies. Harpies were upgraded precisely because of this.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 16:25   #154
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Re: Stat changes for R15

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Originally Posted by Wandows
lol, right. Doing that effectively removes the CO fleet as viable attack fleet for Cath. Latest change is that Vipers EMP, hence you won't lose the gryphons any more, that should be sufficient.
because obviously cath co fleet is so weak as it is? (in reality it's 1 of the best and strongest fleets in the game atm and hardly stoppable.)

besides that if it's made into an emp ship i'm sure they will become more powerfull aswell again meaning terrans would have to make even more gryphons (which are a waste of res for any terran as they are useless as a defence and attack ship.

so i don't see how this REALLY helps a terran and makes the overpowered cath attack/def fleets a bit weaker...
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 16:28   #155
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Re: Stat changes for R15

With the Viper being EMP, it means the Gryphon can hit for 0 losses, and the Cutlass can steal for 0 loss. With no Phoenix or Cutters (Co-> De) being stolen, Lancers are a 0 loss defence, with no Sentinals for flak, and Arrowheads have been upgraded, and Spiders slightly degraded. While the Co fleet is in some ways stronger, it's definately weaker in other ways.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 16:37   #156
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Re: Stat changes for R15

If I was a xan going to attack a cath, I would use the fi fleet (vsh,pulsar, pods and sentinals) and use co if need be.The sents would be an extra bit of beetle flak for the fi fleet.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 16:48   #157
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Re: Stat changes for R15

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Originally Posted by cypher
because obviously cath co fleet is so weak as it is? (in reality it's 1 of the best and strongest fleets in the game atm and hardly stoppable.)

besides that if it's made into an emp ship i'm sure they will become more powerfull aswell again meaning terrans would have to make even more gryphons (which are a waste of res for any terran as they are useless as a defence and attack ship.

so i don't see how this REALLY helps a terran and makes the overpowered cath attack/def fleets a bit weaker...
One possibility is that a xan and/or zik gal m8 can send frigs as flak for the gryphons that normally wouldn't be sent if vipers are normal attacking rather than emp.
Infact if I was a zik I would be thinking whens that terran gal m8 of mines going to get another cath co inc I could use some more co ships
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 18:24   #158
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Re: Stat changes for R15

in round 13 I remember ordereing the xans not to use their sentinels in attack and only use them for defence. I think that is still a good strategy for defence. But whatever. I never have right now do I mr stealers for all classes will not lead to more bashing. :-p
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 20:03   #159
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Re: Stat changes for R15

heh thx buddies:P i know about how to sort defence, my point is it's still pointless ship for a terran and this will make sure a ter needs to invest even more in it.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 20:36   #160
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Re: Stat changes for R15

It means that if you invest in them they're not going to get destroyed with the first cath that comes along.
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 02:45   #161
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Re: Stat changes for R15

A wee bonus is that it is not nessesary to flee gryphons against a cath co fleet if your going to lose.
Just need to worry about vsh now
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 13:50   #162
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I agree with Kargool here. I would guess that most planets in top alliances will rarely, if ever, send sentinels to attack. As Kargool said in r13 the sentinel situation was similar to what it was now and they were virtually never used to attack with by top allies. It also doesn't deter any def except terran harpies, which from experience I have found are the least common anti-fi defence over the past few rounds. I would say that sending sentinels on attacks is pointless about 80-90% of the time. This means that as well as havnig the new cutter as a super anti-fi ship you also have a very affective sentinel. Imo the best way to alter this would be to tone down the cutter (maybe to more like 40-45 dam/cost) but make it fire at same initiative as the arrow. This would also slightly lower the power of the multi race fi/co (mainly cath/xan) which imo is a good thing as it is currently totally overpowered and virtually impossible to stop.

On a separate note I think that terrans will go from finding it fairly easy to land bs attacks to finding it very hard. This is mostly due to the wyvern no longer stealing de which makes defending much easier and making syrens a redundant ship except in the very rare case you find a low pk xan.

I also think that both of the cathaar roiding fleets are now slightly overpowered. I like the fact that the pk armour and damage have been increased but the change of scarab down to frigate counteracts this. Obviously there will also be a few clippers flying around as extra de flak but I can't see lage numbers of these being built, as zik have a defense eta cr stealer anyway. I would guess that the cr fleet will be of similar power to this round, ie lethal early on maybe fading a bit later. The fi/co fleet however will strong vitually the entire round. Only xan can defend against either a pure co or a fi/co fleet, and this is with non defense eta ships. This means that in order to defend against a cath fi/co fleet you need to use a lot of excess ships before you even start hurting them.

I've probably missed something obvious in here somewhere so if you see anything let me know
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 14:32   #163
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
I agree with Kargool here. I would guess that most planets in top alliances will rarely, if ever, send sentinels to attack. As Kargool said in r13 the sentinel situation was similar to what it was now and they were virtually never used to attack with by top allies.
From what I've heard, that's wrong. But anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
It also doesn't deter any def except terran harpies, which from experience I have found are the least common anti-fi defence over the past few rounds.
That's why I improved the Harpy. If Harpies and Sentinals are going to be sent to defend, I think the best thing to deter them is sending Sentinals along as flak, to make defenders think it's more worthwhile just letting the roids go than defending them for such high costs. I might halve the Sentinal values (roughly). That'd also make them nicer flak ships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
I would say that sending sentinels on attacks is pointless about 80-90% of the time. This means that as well as havnig the new cutter as a super anti-fi ship you also have a very affective sentinel. Imo the best way to alter this would be to tone down the cutter (maybe to more like 40-45 dam/cost) but make it fire at same initiative as the arrow.
The Cutter is a strong ship, I admit. It might be too strong, but the Zik race should by no means make up the majority of the universe. If anything, I'm going to downgrade Zik further as it's probably too strong as it is. Changing the init to the same as the arrow is an awful idea though. The arrow is meant to be able to take it out before it fires, as a counter effect. Terrans and Ziks especially aren't exactly brimming with anti Co to stop them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
This would also slightly lower the power of the multi race fi/co (mainly cath/xan) which imo is a good thing as it is currently totally overpowered and virtually impossible to stop.
It's the end of the round. At the end of the round, the lower eta fleets do better, because half the players aren't playing quite so actively, so it's easier to sneak these things in. This is one of the major reasons why Xan is so high . It's their major advantage. Cath are the only other race with a Fi/Co fleet, and they're the most offensive race in the universe. They're also the weakest race defensively. Bare that in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
On a separate note I think that terrans will go from finding it fairly easy to land bs attacks to finding it very hard. This is mostly due to the wyvern no longer stealing de which makes defending much easier and making syrens a redundant ship except in the very rare case you find a low pk xan.
I finally worked out you meant because they can't steal ships to offset the losses. They're the next most offensive race (technically) after Cathaar, and should be looking to play from XP more than keeping ships.
Terran might need some looking at, to adjust a few ratios, in particular the Syren, Drake, and perhaps Peg and Wyvern.

Quote:
I also think that both of the cathaar roiding fleets are now slightly overpowered. I like the fact that the pk armour and damage have been increased but the change of scarab down to frigate counteracts this.
It changes the amount of De around, yes. I'm considering swapping the classes of the Clipper and Scarab.

Quote:
Obviously there will also be a few clippers flying around as extra de flak but I can't see lage numbers of these being built, as zik have a defense eta cr stealer anyway.
See above, but the Clipper does more damage and is an ETA below, so it can't be that bad!

Quote:
I would guess that the cr fleet will be of similar power to this round, ie lethal early on maybe fading a bit later. The fi/co fleet however will strong vitually the entire round. Only xan can defend against either a pure co or a fi/co fleet, and this is with non defense eta ships. This means that in order to defend against a cath fi/co fleet you need to use a lot of excess ships before you even start hurting them.
The Co fleet is stronger, but I have allowed for Lancers and Scorpions in gal. Arrowheads have had their damage improved slightly, and Spider damage has been slightly dropped. However, Spiders will be more common, and used in defence as well as attack [Yes, I realise this is similar to the Sentinal argument, but tbh Sentinals are the same class at least].
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 17:55   #164
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Re: Stat changes for R15

What can I say Appocomaster... Ya can't please them all.
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 18:03   #165
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Re: Stat changes for R15

heh. I'm just updating the stats... there's a version 10 which is uploaded, but I'm not 100% sure about it. I think Zik might be too strong. Oh well. It's www.geocities.com/appocomaster/newstats10.htm
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 19:18   #166
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Had a bit of a lookover, Some interesting ones there.
Interesting call with the gryphons being fi class happy terran, however to avoid overpowering 1 race as it is an extra bit of sent/beetle flak, although the sent has been altered to compensate for that.
attacking xan with terran BS/CR seems a bit better now.

Clippers being frig is not good for caths.
1. an extra bit of viper flak for attacking and easier stealing
2. Clippers get a free lunch on a cath cr fleet.

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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 21:28   #167
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddies
Clippers being frig is not good for caths.
2. Clippers get a free lunch on a cath cr fleet.
That's my major concern. I changed it so they had *some* ship that wasn't steal as Fr, that hit Syren. I guess I need to fix zik still.
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 23:53   #168
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Actually, i can't believe that the Gryphon is made FI. It will make CO fleets even worse as there will be even more defence available against it this way. I might be a tad biased as i simply like playing Cathaar, but i hate to see the race getting ruined again after they had a ok round.

With the Gryphon becoming FI cathaar will now have to focus on 1 target race. They need a shitload of Beetles to stun the Terran FI to prevent them from hurting the CO, which means they can't build Viper to target Zik on occassion which will reduce their target range dramatically. It also means there will be another low eta defence against the CO fleet which will make it even easier to stop next to all ingal possibilities. With the Spider having Init 1 and flakking the Gryphon it will be hard, not even counting the possibility of simply sending any FI flak you can find to draw away beetle fire from the Terran FI, that way they get to fire, and byebye CO attack. And even if you fail at that, you can still send ingal Thiefs, Lancers and Scorpions to have a go at the CO fleet for free. Thiefs might be targetted by the Vipers, but since Terran is a CO fleet its main target, it means there probably won't be enough Vipers to stop the FR from doing the damage. It work the same the other way around, against Zik you need alot of Vipers, which means the Terran Gryphons can have a easy go against the CO, in either case the CO fleet is screwed. It seems for a so-called powerfull offensive race, things are being made extremely difficult.
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Unread 28 Sep 2005, 08:22   #169
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I am with wandows on this one, the co fleet has been weaken as it is... without fighting on 2 fronts (beetles on terran and vipers on ziks). I know that was part of the xan fi strategy (R14) was to hit terrans with vsh to hit the gryphons and you would send your sents to make sure the harpys weren't staying in. Since sents are now fi class. (sent v harpy) if a terran gets vsh at him/her just needs to run gryphons as they are not a needed def ship.

edit using the V9 stats as point of reference

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Unread 29 Sep 2005, 12:02   #170
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Re: Stat changes for R15

But I think it is even worse for Xans (or the same)... As to attack a Ter, you need pulsars and sents and if you focus only on those you give an easy way for Ziks to have some FI. Besides, their are 2 no-loss Anti-FI ships which has the same ETA. Cutters and Beetles. And if you do it the other way, focus on Zik, like only build vshs and sents. You will leave a free way for Pegs. That is not the biggest problem though, the big peoblem I guess is that their are 2 no-loss ships anti-fi same eta as them. While using CO their are only 1 same ETA no-loss defence. So Xan FI and Cath CO are fair I guess. And I don't think in-gal defence is a big thing to worry about in alliance attacks.

As suggestions for the stats:

I think increasing the Dragon's arm/cost a bit and lowering it's def/cost a bit is good. Along with increasing the Ghost's arm/cost a bit too. Also the Xan FI intiatic is a little high. Maybe decreasing it by 1 for all along with the Tzen. So Pulsars fire before DE. Also lowering the Scarab's def/cost is good too I think. Along with strengthening the Roach a little, maybe 60 arm/cost. As the Scarab fire before it and adds some flak to the PK.

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Unread 29 Sep 2005, 14:36   #171
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-dANGEr
But I think it is even worse for Xans (or the same)... As to attack a Ter, you need pulsars and sents and if you focus only on those you give an easy way for Ziks to have some FI. Besides, their are 2 no-loss Anti-FI ships which has the same ETA. Cutters and Beetles. And if you do it the other way, focus on Zik, like only build vshs and sents. You will leave a free way for Pegs.
I think this is the whole point of stat design; if xands could easily cover vs every other race then the stats would suck, they would be unbalanced, and people would flock to xand...

Quote:
That is not the biggest problem though, the big peoblem I guess is that their are 2 no-loss ships anti-fi same eta as them.
No loss EMP def doesn't count IMO
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Unread 29 Sep 2005, 17:49   #172
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I think this is the whole point of stat design; if xands could easily cover vs every other race then the stats would suck, they would be unbalanced, and people would flock to xand...
No loss EMP def doesn't count IMO
I can see where x-dANGEr is coming from but I have to agree with gate, The best result is not to overpower any 1 race.
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 05:42   #173
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Yes I know. I am just saying it is fair
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 09:27   #174
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddies
I can see where x-dANGEr is coming from but I have to agree with gate, The best result is not to overpower any 1 race.
One has to keep in mind thought that when you try as hard as possible to not make a race overpowered (xan) you might end up making them weak instead. It also depends largely on what races people pick (ie. what race(s) seem to be good), if there is going to be a large amount of xans and few ziks then cutter wont be a problem, but if it will be as has been hinted that xan is weakened and zik is strenghtened, it will lead to us having more ziks than xans in the Uni and in such scenario fi fleet becomes worthless due to all the cutters.
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 09:42   #175
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Re: Stat changes for R15

In most rounds, there's more Xans than Ziks. In fact, probably in all rounds. Although it's not held so true so recently, Xan and Terran usually make up over half the player base, sometimes as much as 60-70%, with the rest being Cath and Zik. Also, even if by some miracle everyone wants to go Zik (I'm taking into account if Zik are the only steal race more people might want to go Zik again), and there are Cutters, they might be built at first to stop Xans, but if there's few Xans and they don't use Fi fleets, the Cutters won't be built any more as they're not needed. People build what they need... to stop what's working. Stats work in a round when there's at least 2 ships of 2 different races (with at least one ETA defence) that can stop any given fleet combo. That way, if one combo is deemed overpowered, it can be pulled back. This is why my major concern atm is Terran Bs, as while lots of anti Cr is 0 loss (Roach), the same cannot be said of Terran Bs - it targets all ships that defend against it. My only other worry is that most anti Cr might end up being Bs / De (2 Bs -> Cr, 3 De -> Cr) which would be a bit predictable. I'm thinking of a way to change this :-)


Edit: new stats at http://www.geocities.com/appocomaster/newstats11.htm
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 10:53   #176
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
This is why my major concern atm is Terran Bs, as while lots of anti Cr is 0 loss (Roach), the same cannot be said of Terran Bs - it targets all ships that defend against it. My only other worry is that most anti Cr might end up being Bs / De (2 Bs -> Cr, 3 De -> Cr) which would be a bit predictable. I'm thinking of a way to change this :-)
Black widows and ghost get a free lunch into terran bs ships, That where the syrens come in however that leaves an extra class to target, for example if a terran sends bs/cr fleet to a xan the ghost do get a free lunch into the bs, without sending syrens (cr) to hit the ghosts. however if the terran does send syrens. It leaves the syrens vunerable to rogues and dragons for def.

edit...this was before I seen the v11 stats
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 10:54   #177
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Yes, I know Syrens open up more anti cr, but Syrens are expendable flak, generally.
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 11:15   #178
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Why the hell are the stats changing sooooooooooo much?
Round 14 was quite a balanced round with all races represented in the top 20
And one of the most fun things about the round was as a none Zik being able to steal a bit

If anything the stats should just be tweaked a bit
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 11:24   #179
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I have seen the V11 stats now... Although Happy terran here with the bs fleet (which I would feel will over power them in mid to end game), It does leave a big vunerbility for terrans to get anti frig in the early stages of the game as they would need to research cr/bs ships and build heavy factory... ziks will have a field day as would xans. Another point would be the terran de fleet has been weaken to the point of the xan frig fleet of R14.

The V11 stats are good for seasoned players in a good ally but the new guy/girl in a poor gal/ally would generally be owned
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 11:32   #180
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoro
Why the hell are the stats changing sooooooooooo much?
Round 14 was quite a balanced round with all races represented in the top 20
And one of the most fun things about the round was as a none Zik being able to steal a bit

If anything the stats should just be tweaked a bit
Because Xan Fr didn't work, and all races stealing lead to a lot more bashing of smaller planets for ships (:P Kargool). Much of the game is staying the same, but I'm changing bits to make the game slightly different, and maybe a bit more interesting. Most of the same combos still work. I'm just patching it up.


And the decision for Terrans, like Xans, is do you use Drakes to defend or attack with? Maybe Drake should be Cr, as that might make a bit more sense. I just wanted some 0 loss Bs defence, and the Drake seemed the best ship to change to make that (the only other option is turning the Black Widow to a Cr, and making the Tula a Bs -> Bs kill ship).
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 12:23   #181
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I was planning on goin zik next round since this round was fun, but i really dont like what u did with the cors. Its not going to be any easy to get a decent FI fleet now, seeing as corsair targets the same as pulsar. Also(prolly intentionally) the eon cost for the cutter is so big most people wont have enough eon to build it in large enough numbers.

Except from that stats look not half bad at first glance

Clearly alot of different fleet combos are possible, and i think the deciding factor in which race succedes will be much down to what race most people go. If there are many terrans, caths will surely have it easy with their CO fleet.
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 13:30   #182
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Re: Stat changes for R15

oops. Cutter isn't meant to be 1k/1k/2k. I liked the arm/cost and dam/cost ratios, but forgot to adjust the costs. they should be something like 1200/1200/1600
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 14:08   #183
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Re: Stat changes for R15

currently cath Cr is too strong, particularly against a zik... maybe if we changed rogue init to say... i dunno... 5?
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 16:55   #184
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Re: Stat changes for R15

ABUSE! ABUSE!
*sigh* what do you think Clippers are for? It's not like Dragons, Scarabs and Peacekeepers are that weak - I even upped Peacekeeper damage. Leave the Rogues alone :P
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 17:56   #185
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Looking at the stats a few things fast become apparent. I was Zik last round and used BS fleet mostly but with the changes in the new stats both Terrans and xans have 0 loss ships against zik BS, while cath have two ships fire against them with lower eta (both BWs that freeze and taras that kill), essentially meaning that ziks will have to send out CRs along with their BS on most attacks which quickly becomes a big disadvantage.

The zik FR fleet looks much better now though with the fact that the clipper shoots before both the Guardian and the Syren, making Terrans the oubvious target.

Looking at the stats is it right to asume that:

Xan FI > Terran
Cath CO> terran
Cath CR> xans
ziks FR> terrans
Terran BS> zik

Caths natural enemy will prolly as usual be any race with a specialized fleet, seeing as caths have adequate cover against all classes, though every cath wont manage to build enough to defend against every kind of inc.
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 19:22   #186
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Yes, Terran does seem to be a bit of a target. I was considering changing the Drake back (it's not quite a useless ship as De-> Fr, but Syrens will still be more common no doubt), and move the BW to Cr and Tula to Bs (you get the idea). This would mean a 0 loss kill defence for Bs. I know that Zik Bs isn't that strong, and that Ghosts will be more of a problem perhaps with the Marauder down at De now, but I don't have any real ideas - and it seemed to work this round
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 20:10   #187
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Moving tarants to bs means xan, terran AND cath has a 0 loss anti bs, which would definnetively make zik BS crap. And tbh next rnd is prolly gonna see less inactive players than this 'vacation' round, meaning stealing ships will be harder. So atm i feel ziks might struggle unless they team up on attacks. Moving Drake also to FR means now ziks will HAVE to take marauders(DEs) along with their FR attacks to hit terrans, and tbh i fear zik will really be worse off then so maybe keeping the current setup is better.

I will however try to come up with a better solution :P
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 20:37   #188
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Terran wouldn't have 0 loss anti bs? And I never said Drake was going to be Fr, I meant move it from Bs -> Bs back to De -> Fr (-> means "targets").
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 20:40   #189
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Re: Stat changes for R15

That still leaves Drake getting free shots at a zik FR fleet.

If it remains BS it gets free shots at zik BS, since zik BS targets DE and CR
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 23:01   #190
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Having had lots of (circular) discussions in #strategy, this is the newest version of stats. Isildurx's suggestion is, to reduce the large amount of anti Cr, we change the Guardian to Bs targetting De.
Not all the targetting pages have been updated with the latest latest version of everything, but I have changed it so that green = value increased (including ship classes ) and red = decreased [both still from R14 stats]
(thanks also to B|nTaRa)
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 07:40   #191
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Re: Stat changes for R15

The beta test results should be interesting... For any person who isn't in an ally find one asap
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 09:17   #192
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I would recommend changing the drake from a frig to a destroyer ship so that a terran (de) can attack a cath better and a cath (co) can attack a terran better.
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 10:04   #193
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Re: Stat changes for R15

i m sorry to say.. the i was a cathaar in r14.. and i was far from powerful.. in fact (and appocomaster can tell) i was very unhappy... not a single went by where i was not attack by any race who s planet was twice my size or more.. to the point i quit playing the last 2 week.. of of despise and boredom.. those powerful cath you mention were powerful only cause no one dare attack them in masses, like i was early in the round.. and terran/xan/zik combo would wipe out any powerful cath at anytime.. (provide they get through allies and gal help.. a 1 on 1 fight will put the cath fleet out as easily and surely as 1+1 =2.. during the round i saw coming at me 2 fleet of 2k+ cath cr, 3 fleet of 1k terran bs, 6 fleet of 5k zik bs.. and ton of others.. and i could not do anything to stop them.. and i m not talking of the ter de and xan fi incoming.. the powerful cath were just lucky to be in feared alliance and had very good gal protection...
so dont start with the cath are too powerfull .. look in a mirror and ask yourself why you let them be so strong..

now .. to be more critical on the ship design.. it s true the ter gryphon were a bit weak vs the vipers attack.. but remember that any strenght or weakness is primarly a problem of numbers.. how many attacking ships vs how many defending ship.. if i put 1k viper versus 100 grphons.. it s sure the viper gonna get through.. same as if i put 100 ter bs (dragon, wyvern,levis) vs 20 bw.. even 100 bw would prove weak vs that same incoming.. and dont forget many attacker team up.. putting the task of defending harder..

as for scorpion being too powerful.. i do laugh.. as most never get any ships o steal as we telegraph our attack.. rarely getting any ships.. (that hold doubly true vs terran who have dragons as a deterent!)

peacekeepers were weak.. that was very obvious.. but then, again.. it a matter of x attacker vs y defenders.. but the fact that ter could have a stockpile as big as a zik could was a giveaway that the peacekeeper need better armor.. or faster reaction..

one ship i would see improve is the terran phoenix.. to weak and lacking in firepower (even the cutter was a better co ).. the zik de was also a laughing ships.. as it mainly did nothing (too weak , slow and no firepower to mention).. in all case.. i dont say ships were overall too weak or too strong .. but i do look at how well planets are protected, and how efficient alliances and gal mates are... as it is the true problem..
no matter what you got.. if there s defense.. appropriate to what you re sending.. you wont land.. it s that simple... so the true question is .. how do we protect the weak planets from being raped and killed.. (mining the fun of the players in the process and causing them to leave a growing and fun game)?
i gave appocomaster ideas.. which were mostly rejected.. so i ll let you guys (the brains of the game) to find a solution to this problem.. (but in all event , i doubt any improvement will be put on..)
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 10:25   #194
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddies
I would recommend changing the drake from a frig to a destroyer ship so that a terran (de) can attack a cath better and a cath (co) can attack a terran better.
Thta is one of the errors that Appoco is mentioning, the Drake is supposed to DE, its just not listed as it yet
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 10:48   #195
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Version 13

I realise there's a lot of anti de and cr, but most of it is targetted, and tbh I doubt it'll all be built, especially towards the end of the game, giving 2 nice finishing fleets
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 11:06   #196
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Re: Stat changes for R15

admittedly.. i did not look at the new stat yet.. but bear in mind that any weakness or strenght always depend on the size of opposing fleets.. i will look them up.. and probably try out the havoc round (against my better jugement) to see how thing goes.. but if i dont consider ships stat at the moment.. my real worry is who many planets of 2x-3x my size will still be landing on me.. before i m force to resign again..
truly.. the small /medium players do need support.. no matter the race they are...

on another note.. (covert op and ship design.. )
covert op.. i would suggest a rethinking of some cost/effect of some covert op.. to make them more attractive to use.. (ex havoc) so using that option get more interesting though other covert op may be more costly (bank hacking).. though the result of a bank hack is not that good if you consider the return average..

ship design.. creating a new ship class for structure killer (the jauggernaut) so it less attractive to use in mass attack.. ( hince the better cover op!)...
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 11:35   #197
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Re: Stat changes for R15

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Having had lots of (circular) discussions in #strategy, this is the newest version of stats. Isildurx's suggestion is, to reduce the large amount of anti Cr, we change the Guardian to Bs targetting De.
Stealing guardians and then attacking xan with your bs fleet was a great way to earn point with few losses last round, i don't see why the guardian would want to target De :<

Also, changing the mara to De means that to steal any BS from a cat they need to have hardly any scarabs, as the bucc is now only attacking zik Cr. And seeing as scarab has more damage/cost than the bucc has armor/cost it isn't hardly worth wile.

I'm glad there's more of a Fr fleet for zik though.
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Last edited by stubbsy; 1 Oct 2005 at 11:44.
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 12:07   #198
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I still think the xan FI gets a beating the size of mount rushmore.. and with Xan FR not being able to hit the CR that hits them you basically leave xan with two crap attackfleets.
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 12:08   #199
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Re: Stat changes for R15

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Originally Posted by rop1964
admittedly.. i did not look at the new stat yet.. but bear in mind that any weakness or strenght always depend on the size of opposing fleets.. i will look them up.. and probably try out the havoc round (against my better jugement) to see how thing goes.. but if i dont consider ships stat at the moment.. my real worry is who many planets of 2x-3x my size will still be landing on me.. before i m force to resign again..
truly.. the small /medium players do need support.. no matter the race they are...
I still wonder; how do you intend to formulate ship stats whereby even with 2-3 times as many ships as your target, you can't attack anyone? And it would surely make for a boring round, remember that if someone 2-3 timse your size couldn't attack you, then you couldn't attack anyone either, as the bash limit remains at 40%. Meaning everyone just sits there playing sim-planet. I don't think shipstats have anything to do with bashing small players, outside perhaps of stealing.

Surely the whole point of the stats nowadays is to supply balance and to encourage attacking in order to prevent game stagnation?

Quote:
covert op.. i would suggest a rethinking of some cost/effect of some covert op.. to make them more attractive to use.. (ex havoc) so using that option get more interesting
I'd disagree again with this, as planetarion has always been about the ship battles and stealing roids. Covert ops isn't the same as a battle... you just click some buttons and the worst that happens is you waste your resources. In ship battles, it's the fleet you've lovingly crafted for weeks (or months), and it's up to your skills at using your own fleet and a battlecalc as to how well it turns out. Far more interesting than waiting a few hours, pressing a button, waiting a few hours, pressing a button etc IMO!

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though other covert op may be more costly (bank hacking).. though the result of a bank hack is not that good if you consider the return average..
A bank hack, if done on someone large enough will generally return you 7.5k per 1k res spent. Free resources is always worth it, and can be very annoying!
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 12:31   #200
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Surely the whole point of the stats nowadays is to supply balance and to encourage attacking in order to prevent game stagnation?
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what i mean is i just cant take that playrs who are 2xto 3 time 1 opponen would constantly attack that target
for exemple a 1.5 million value planet attacking a 750k value.. till the guy got nothing left but 30roids and no ships.. or force him to keep running till he s got nothing left while other more tempting bigger planets develop! assurely you dont mean that bashing to bit a player is more appropriate than trying your skill against a player 50% bigger than you , for exp and roids.. ?? cause if you re saying if more profitable to bash down a weak player that to attack a big roid fat planet , you re looking at the ruuning away of new players on medium and long term..

cause that s what i witness in r14 all rounf long.. and many (including myself are considerering not comming back for other rounds..
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