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Unread 28 Jan 2010, 08:37   #1
steveopotamus
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Single Targeting

I dig it. Well done guys.
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Unread 3 Feb 2010, 07:59   #2
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Re: Single Targeting

agreed
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Unread 3 Feb 2010, 12:50   #3
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Re: Single Targeting

I have to say I have hated it; this may be principally be for choosing xan and not having an alliance that sends defence meaning i feel totally helpless when faced with incs.
I had hoped it would make it easier for the alliances to level the playing field because it would be easier to land, but App is running away as strongly or even better than i have ever seen Asc do.
All in all it will be a good excuse for me to avoid playing next round if single targeting continues.
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Unread 3 Feb 2010, 16:57   #4
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
App is running away as strongly or even better than i have ever seen Asc do.
Of course. What did you expect? They have the best players.
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Unread 3 Feb 2010, 17:49   #5
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Re: Single Targeting

Single targeting has been interesting, I had hoped it would force people to spread out their resources more and thereby make attacking easier. Sadly this has only partially been the case as some attack fleets have been very powerful while others have been basically useless. If single targeting is done again next round I would hope a bit more attention would be paid to making individual attack fleets less powerful and force players to spread resources between attack fleets a bit more. Other then this single class targeting has been interesting and I for one have enjoyed the change of pace.
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Unread 3 Feb 2010, 18:01   #6
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Of course. What did you expect? They have the best players.
Fully expected that, and decried any idea that euph would put up much of a fight before the round... my misplaced hopes centered around the idea that single targeting makes attacking easier so ppl land more often thus blocks can maintain momentum rather than disintegrating in less than a week as is traditional.. as im outside the block and app, receive no targets or information from either i find it very hard to tell what is actually happening whether there are more landings on app than might otherwise be the case which is then covered up in sandmans by them then landing more.
This does not have much to do with my dislike of single targeting except that originally it was my one ray of sunshine. I have never liked playing at roid exchanging which is what im forced to do, almost anyone who attacks me lands, I land plenty but i hate the lack of stability; it makes the game even more stressful than it always was.
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Unread 3 Feb 2010, 18:17   #7
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Re: Single Targeting

Personally, I am enjoying this round more than I have ever enjoyed pa post-pax. Now give me a round with 8-am private gals, and i will seriously jizz in my pants. Just 1 round. One. Single. Round.
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Unread 3 Feb 2010, 21:41   #8
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
Sadly this has only partially been the case as some attack fleets have been very powerful while others have been basically useless.
Just for curiosity, care to mention specific fleets?
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Unread 3 Feb 2010, 23:15   #9
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by linkie View Post
personally, i am enjoying this round more than i have ever enjoyed pa post-pax. Now give me a round with 8-am private gals, and i will seriously jizz in my pants. Just 1 round. One. Single. Round.
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Unread 3 Feb 2010, 23:53   #10
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Re: Single Targeting

Damnit guys! You are doing ace work with single targetting! I get single targetting, and Londo quitting! What more can I ask of PA!

I love playing a round with single targetting. May it never change.
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Unread 4 Feb 2010, 00:14   #11
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by Kargool View Post
Damnit guys! You are doing ace work with single targetting! I get single targetting, and Londo quitting! What more can I ask of PA!

I love playing a round with single targetting. May it never change.
Im sure if U declared U would quit from a return to multi targeting there would be an immediate result!

I did say it was an excuse.. for something I was contemplating in any case.
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Unread 4 Feb 2010, 00:16   #12
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Re: Single Targeting

im not playing another round of singletargetting atleast.
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Unread 4 Feb 2010, 01:46   #13
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Re: Single Targeting

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im not playing another round of singletargetting atleast.
Well, maybe, but then apparently you're not playing any more already.
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Unread 4 Feb 2010, 17:41   #14
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Re: Single Targeting

owned.
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Unread 5 Feb 2010, 03:01   #15
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by Buddah View Post
im not playing another round of singletargetting atleast.
same here. along with around 10 others I ve talked with.
it simple isnt fun. Yet again I find myself idle with a planet, not enjoying planetarion, just having a planet cause its something I m used to.

could we have a poll or something, cause I really hate that a couple people get to ruin the last couple of rounds of planetarion
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Unread 5 Feb 2010, 05:32   #16
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Re: Single Targeting

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Of course. What did you expect? They have the best players.
no they dont they just have the most players with no lives
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Unread 5 Feb 2010, 08:31   #17
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Re: Single Targeting

The solution is simple; half the stats with T1/T2(+T3), and half the stats with only a single target!
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Unread 5 Feb 2010, 09:28   #18
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
The solution is simple; half the stats with T1/T2(+T3), and half the stats with only a single target!
That's not really a solution for people like wishmaster. They just want to build 3 ships, preferably in only two classes, and go the entire round without getting roided. If there are stats which favour roid-swapping more they'll still whine. Not that anyone actually seriously believes they'll quit. And I really, really doubt a single versus multiple targeting poll would end in anything other than a landslide in favour of single targeting.
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Unread 5 Feb 2010, 10:03   #19
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
That's not really a solution for people like wishmaster. They just want to build 3 ships, preferably in only two classes, and go the entire round without getting roided. If there are stats which favour roid-swapping more they'll still whine. Not that anyone actually seriously believes they'll quit. And I really, really doubt a single versus multiple targeting poll would end in anything other than a landslide in favour of single targeting.
ehm.

I hate fortress play. Read through some of my posts regarding the matter before you try to post "my opinions".
And,much like this round, I might have an unpaid account where I login every now and then, but I will not be playing actively, proper planetarion with another round of awful stats like this round.
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Quote:
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Unread 5 Feb 2010, 10:24   #20
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
That's not really a solution for people like wishmaster. They just want to build 3 ships, preferably in only two classes, and go the entire round without getting roided. If there are stats which favour roid-swapping more they'll still whine. Not that anyone actually seriously believes they'll quit. And I really, really doubt a single versus multiple targeting poll would end in anything other than a landslide in favour of single targeting.
I can definitely see his point though, as I too prefer building as few ships as possible (because it's simply the best "strategy" for PA).
However I'm having a great time building pretty much only 1 ship and roiding top planets that started 313 ticks earlier than myself.

As has been pointed out before (by you as well, probably) both single and multitargeting have their strengths and their flaws, there really is no perfect solution. The only thing we could do is mix it up every few rounds.

Even better, 2 seperate servers, one for each style! ^^
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Unread 5 Feb 2010, 15:35   #21
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post

Even better, 2 seperate servers, one for each style! ^^
Yes... because the player base is too big and needs to be split up further....
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Unread 5 Feb 2010, 16:54   #22
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Re: Single Targeting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
ehm.

I hate fortress play. Read through some of my posts regarding the matter before you try to post "my opinions".
And,much like this round, I might have an unpaid account where I login every now and then, but I will not be playing actively, proper planetarion with another round of awful stats like this round.
What the **** was anyone talking about fortress play? Your opinion, as you've frequently said, is that you're not happy that "noobs can roid me" (and that's pretty much a direct quote). Get off your high horse you faggot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc
As has been pointed out before (by you as well, probably) both single and multitargeting have their strengths and their flaws, there really is no perfect solution. The only thing we could do is mix it up every few rounds.
Sure.

Quote:
Even better, 2 seperate servers, one for each style! ^^
Except for what monroe said.
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Unread 5 Feb 2010, 18:14   #23
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Re: Single Targeting

I've enjoyed single-targetting alot. In my opinion it is a lot easier to make balanced and fun stats using single-targetting, compared to multi-targetting which often leads to stagnation and boredom. I do think it would be possible to create a set of stats with some ships having one target and some ships having T1 and T2, might be hard to balance though I guess.
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Unread 5 Feb 2010, 18:30   #24
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Re: Single Targeting

It's not that hard to balance really. It'll just be a middle ground that nobody's a huge fan of in all likelihood (or more realistically that nobody cares about).
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Unread 5 Feb 2010, 20:48   #25
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Re: Single Targeting

After thinking about it for a long time I've decided I don't actually want balanced stats, balanced stats would be boring. What makes the stats (and therefore each round) interesting is finding the imbalances in them and exploiting them. Seeing how the player base exploits the stats each round and trying to determine which ship building path is most optimal for my planet based on what others are building is the most interesting part of the stats in my opinion. Lets face it the attack strategies change very little from one round to the next, only which ships are best for that round. If we were able to create "perfectly" balanced stats then the game would be a lot more static and everyone would build the same things ever round, which would be rather boring really.
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Unread 5 Feb 2010, 22:55   #26
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Re: Single Targeting

That makes absolutely no sense. How is a set of stats in which one race is obviously stronger than the others going to lead to less stagnation than a set of stats in which the choice is much harder to make?

On a sidenote, I do believe that balance is not the holy grail of making stats, making fun stats is much more important. Having the one does not exclude the other though.
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Unread 5 Feb 2010, 23:33   #27
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Re: Single Targeting

As long as each race/attack fleet is viable it's not that hard to make good, enjoyable stats. I think this is easier to accomplish with single targeting though, with only 2 podclasses/race.
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Unread 6 Feb 2010, 08:39   #28
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Re: Single Targeting

With little strategic depth as to what happens in a battle, stats are very hard to balance. Especially when it is affected by the number of planets that go a certain race, and a certain attack fleet, defense ship, etc.

Nevertheless, rebuilding a new set of stats every once and a while seems like the wrong path to get to it. If you want to get a balanced set of stats, incremental changes should be made that always seek balance, not necessarily attain it. Is that exciting? It may not be; it should be, though. Because "strategy" should be about more than just the stats, if you get what I mean.

For example, hypothetically speaking, Terran BS attack fleet last round was weak, because it faced too many of a certain Xan ship that countered it. On the next round, a strategy would be to "fake going BS", for instance, and then go something else. Or fake going something else, then etc.. I understand this is more on an alliance-level than a player-level. But the game is not any fun without an alliance, is it?
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Unread 6 Feb 2010, 10:04   #29
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I've enjoyed single-targetting alot. In my opinion it is a lot easier to make balanced and fun stats using single-targetting, compared to multi-targetting which often leads to stagnation and boredom. I do think it would be possible to create a set of stats with some ships having one target and some ships having T1 and T2, might be hard to balance though I guess.
people whine when you do this too (R32 Banshee/Revenant and R33 & R34 Phantom for ex)

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Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
After thinking about it for a long time I've decided I don't actually want balanced stats, balanced stats would be boring. What makes the stats (and therefore each round) interesting is finding the imbalances in them and exploiting them. Seeing how the player base exploits the stats each round and trying to determine which ship building path is most optimal for my planet based on what others are building is the most interesting part of the stats in my opinion. Lets face it the attack strategies change very little from one round to the next, only which ships are best for that round. If we were able to create "perfectly" balanced stats then the game would be a lot more static and everyone would build the same things ever round, which would be rather boring really.
the only problem is that people don't actually do this. in R33 the stats favoured cr/bs fortresses, and that was what most of the universe built. there was no real push for fi/co/fr/de in teamups that could exploit any holes with ally def eta, targetting, and init. this round its exactly the same situation. everyone is building fr/de with anti-fi (to combat the handful of cathaar fi players). no one is building cr/bs in any amount to easily stomp the bigger planets or force them to allocate resources which would otherwise lead to a fi/co hole (for instance). everyone always ends up building the same exact thing except for isolated situations. we might as well make a stat set that just has fi/co only class ships which would solve the "unify eta" discussions and remove all thought at what to build since people would rather hide behind fences and do what everyone else is doing instead of using their own brain and playing to compete and have fun.
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Unread 6 Feb 2010, 12:56   #30
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
the only problem is that people don't actually do this. in R33 the stats favoured cr/bs fortresses, and that was what most of the universe built. there was no real push for fi/co/fr/de in teamups that could exploit any holes with ally def eta, targetting, and init. this round its exactly the same situation. everyone is building fr/de with anti-fi (to combat the handful of cathaar fi players). no one is building cr/bs in any amount to easily stomp the bigger planets or force them to allocate resources which would otherwise lead to a fi/co hole (for instance).
I dont think this is true at all; Ive seen plenty of CR/BS fleets, indeed we had a whole raid on my gal of pretty much entirely CR/BS; the issue here is that with single targeting u can realistically cover each ship class less well and you can react to the incs less well due to holes in what you target; realistically this 'everyone' building anti fi in fr/de are xans cos the FR is their only viable attack fleet, and etds whose DE attack fleet just pwns, plus their BS fleet has issues with pirates. Single targeting encourages people to build up the attack fleet and ignore their defense holes because there is no credible way of allocating sufficient resources to fill them making a change of tactics part way through very difficult, or rather more so than it always is.
I would dearly love to change the direction of my fleet, it cant be done.
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Unread 6 Feb 2010, 16:51   #31
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
realistically this 'everyone' building anti fi in fr/de are xans cos the FR is their only viable attack fleet, and etds whose DE attack fleet just pwns, plus their BS fleet has issues with pirates.
I never said that people are building anti fi in fr/de, I said people were mainly building fr/de fleets with anti fi ships. Have you noticed the obscene amount of harpy and cutlass? Its rare that rasp, hosie, deejay, linkie, ba, and myself see less than 5 fleets defending versus us on an attack. Hell, we don't even calc it half the time unless we see more defence fleets than that.

Quote:
Single targeting encourages people to build up the attack fleet and ignore their defense holes because there is no credible way of allocating sufficient resources to fill them making a change of tactics part way through very difficult, or rather more so than it always is.
See above. People have the majority of their attack fleet in the ship that targets fr/de with cutlass and harpy. Most fr/de attack fleets get destroyed by bs/cr defence because of the lack of ships targetting those classes. Its good that one alliance actually built some cr/bs to attack with though apparently.
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Unread 6 Feb 2010, 17:08   #32
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
That makes absolutely no sense. How is a set of stats in which one race is obviously stronger than the others going to lead to less stagnation than a set of stats in which the choice is much harder to make?
I didn't say terribly unbalanced stats are good, but there is this idea on the forums that there is a "perfectly" balanced set of stats out there that will make this game great, we just haven't found a stats maker smart enough to design it yet. To me this idea is false, and is the wrong goal for stats making. I agree heavily unbalanced stats are bad, but having some races be slightly better then other races from one round to the next, and having which race has the best stats change from round to round helps keep the game interesting to me. To me the stats maker should have two goals:
1. Make every race viable, that means at least one good attack option, and one good defense option.
2. Attempt to force players to spread their resources out between classes to limit their ability to just build one or two classes of ships to cover every viable incomming fleet.

If a stat maker is successful in doing these things the stats are as balanced as they need to be and the round will be fun. If a stats maker is unsuccessful in doing either of these things, some races will be nonviable and no fun to play, and there will be one or two races that allow big players to get way ahead and never be caught virtually deciding the winners and loosers in the first couple weeks of the round.
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Unread 6 Feb 2010, 17:48   #33
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Re: Single Targeting

Quote:
2. Attempt to force players to spread their resources out between classes to limit their ability to just build one or two classes of ships to cover every viable incomming fleet.
I don't like this forcing. The stats should have room for this style of play. Specifically I feel that Terran is the choice for such play and I don't view making it possible as a bad thing. Of course you have to sacrifice in other areas (attacking and init) to be able to put all your resources into one class/three ships (with multi-targetting).

Stop limiting the game and play styles, please. Stats should be able to support several styles, without any insane imbalances. Perfect balance is not the goal, fun and non-limiting stats are.
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Unread 6 Feb 2010, 20:22   #34
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Re: Single Targeting

i picked the wrong race (xan) so couldnt really enjoy it
i was pro single targeting basically because i wanted a diffrent round
its my first round of single targeting, and if it continues probably not my last, as i will always have a planet if time allows

however, its a diffrent PA, and its not the PA i like , basically cause i played my planet wrong (wrong race, wrong strategy) but overall for the fact that its too much of a roid swapping game, more then ever before

and also it was asked to be there for a single round

we had a single round of single targeting,
lets get back to multi-targeting
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Unread 6 Feb 2010, 20:38   #35
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
i picked the wrong race (xan) so couldnt really enjoy it
i was pro single targeting basically because i wanted a diffrent round
its my first round of single targeting, and if it continues probably not my last, as i will always have a planet if time allows

however, its a diffrent PA, and its not the PA i like , basically cause i played my planet wrong (wrong race, wrong strategy) but overall for the fact that its too much of a roid swapping game, more then ever before

and also it was asked to be there for a single round

we had a single round of single targeting,
lets get back to multi-targeting
Ive never understood the stigma of making PA a 'roid swapping' game. a roid swapping game is alot better than creating stats with give immunity to the top players and galaxys.
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Unread 6 Feb 2010, 20:38   #36
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Re: Single Targeting

Yeah it's pretty obvious xan is the weakest race.
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Unread 6 Feb 2010, 20:59   #37
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Ive never understood the stigma of making PA a 'roid swapping' game. a roid swapping game is alot better than creating stats with give immunity to the top players and galaxys.
the top players still have the top planets, so where is the diffrence with that argument ?

yes its fun to cap roids every night, but its also frustrating to loose every single one of em a night after

i am not sure whats better, but thats not the point here
we asked for single targeting for one round
we should stick to that plan and get back to mutli-targeting
there is no good enough arguments to stick with single targeting 10 more rounds in my opinion

lets see how the we war apprime (which is just another asc ) works with hardcoded tag defence and multi targeting
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Unread 6 Feb 2010, 21:40   #38
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Re: Single Targeting

Undoubtedly not any better than it currently is.
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Unread 6 Feb 2010, 23:20   #39
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
the top players still have the top planets, so where is the diffrence with that argument ?
If i look at the top10? It doesnt seem to be the usual top players there?

Quote:
yes its fun to cap roids every night, but its also frustrating to loose every single one of em a night after
The noobs generally lose roids ASAP when they cap them anyway. So now it just means the actives face the same problem and even being in a good galaxy wont stop solo raids from landing on you.

Quote:
i am not sure whats better, but thats not the point here
we asked for single targeting for one round
we should stick to that plan and get back to mutli-targeting
there is no good enough arguments to stick with single targeting 10 more rounds in my opinion
Of course that is the point, it doesnt matter if we asked for it to be one round.. If its better, more enjoyable and importantly more fun for most of the players, then shouldnt we be considering keeping it for next round?

Quote:
lets see how the we war apprime (which is just another asc ) works with hardcoded tag defence and multi targeting
The same as all multi-target wars go.. the #1 alliance is next to impossible to land on.
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Unread 7 Feb 2010, 01:36   #40
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
lets see how the we war apprime (which is just another asc ) works with hardcoded tag defence and multi targeting
This is hilarious. I don't think we've ever come closer to a straight up "let's keep changing the game until the losers win.".
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Unread 7 Feb 2010, 02:19   #41
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Re: Single Targeting

Single targetting just rewards not getting incs even more than multi targetting did, which kinda sucks. I don't have a planet this round though so it's all good
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Unread 7 Feb 2010, 08:51   #42
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
Single targetting just rewards not getting incs even more than multi targetting did, which kinda sucks. I don't have a planet this round though so it's all good
As far as i can see, the top planets and top galaxys this round have had ALOT of incomings.
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Unread 7 Feb 2010, 10:20   #43
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Re: Single Targeting

Compared to Wishmaster's gal last round, every gal has had mass incomings this round.

While Zik this round is strong as well (though not as strong as last round) they're at least roidable by certain fleettypes. Last round people didn't even bother with the (almost?) all Zik gal.
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Unread 7 Feb 2010, 10:41   #44
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Re: Single Targeting

'Mass incs'. Some gals sure has had a lot more than others!

I expect this to even out over time though!
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Unread 7 Feb 2010, 11:54   #45
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
yes its fun to cap roids every night, but its also frustrating to loose every single one of em a night after
The problem seems to be that access to good ally def is even more important than before

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
lets see how the we war apprime (which is just another asc ) works with hardcoded tag defence and multi targeting
A stats change will never be sufficient... tho i argued the psycological change of landing more would be useful... its quickly undermined if u land even more rashly
OOT def was always rare except on high profile FCs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
As far as i can see, the top planets and top galaxys this round have had ALOT of incomings.
I wonder if the fact its harder for ppl to defend themselves has lead to more attacks in total; Im struggling to stay t100 launches with an avarage of nearly 4 a day atm, however I dont recall launches ranks from previous rounds well enough to be sure this is unusual.
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Unread 7 Feb 2010, 14:57   #46
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Re: Single Targeting

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
If its better, more enjoyable and importantly more fun for most of the players, then shouldnt we be considering keeping it for next round?
if thats the case i agree with keeping it

but is it ?
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Unread 7 Feb 2010, 15:17   #47
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Re: Single Targeting

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if thats the case i agree with keeping it

but is it ?
Since the forums are always a vocal minority, finding out would be hard, that said the vocal minority normally gets its way.
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Unread 8 Feb 2010, 12:41   #48
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Re: Single Targeting

Hardcore players do not like it. Casual players like it. I don't know what the big fuss is, actually, since in the end it comes down to defending your roids as best as you can. In a multi-targetting round, you get to keep your roids, but they are hard to win too. In a single targetting round you don't keep roids easily, but you can get roids easily too, and in the end the difference is also in the roids you were able to defend.
The biggest problem with single targetting is that it's easier to land fake attacks, and non-experienced players fall for it surprisingly easy. I have lost count of the times defenders lost loads of widows when faking zik FR as CR.
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Unread 8 Feb 2010, 12:53   #49
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Re: Single Targeting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k View Post
Hardcore players do not like it. Casual players like it.
Oversimplification (or just plain wrong).
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 8 Feb 2010 at 19:24. Reason: quote fix
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Unread 8 Feb 2010, 13:15   #50
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Re: Single Targeting

Basically single targetting allows a casual or lower score planet to still compete and land some pretty awesome attacks.. While still keeping the advantage that activity and solid defence brings.

Yes, there's alot more roid swapping going on but isnt that what PA should be about? instead of allowing the top planets to get immunity from most incomings?
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