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Unread 10 Mar 2010, 14:00   #101
E-Choke
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Re: Round 36 Stats

You think you're ever gonna steal ships with that vesel ?
In defence it's useless and in attack pretty much aswell as people will prefer deffing against it's EMP ships and even if they def against it with DE, all DE shoots at it first.

Why is upper class ships shooting at lower class bad ?

It makes ships interesting and gal defence more practical.
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Unread 10 Mar 2010, 14:45   #102
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Talking about useless ships?

Take a look at the Syren! (what is the use of that anti FR ship init 5?)

The pillager wtf pwns ingal btw, but i must say that etd looks impossible to play... (ashame, i like etd for fun race, but not with stats like these (too much EMP imo and not even init 1)
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Unread 10 Mar 2010, 15:32   #103
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Re: Round 36 Stats

E-choke if U have other CR to flack it will work splendidly
The syren aint useless either, tho its not really very necessary; having a small number would probably be good because the cat FR has to freeze its way through all the BS first having some will essentially stop them from trying. Also the syrens eff is in the 80's while the wyv is just over half of that.
I do agree it init is practically an irrelevence tho, and ur not gonna see many.
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Unread 10 Mar 2010, 16:02   #104
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Re: Round 36 Stats

http://beta.planetarion.com/show_new...uplj20ylg9tfov

This is how splendidly it looks like
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Unread 10 Mar 2010, 16:19   #105
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Re: Round 36 Stats

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=7xbeco7odcsf88t

Another way to be sure you get ****ed by the pillager
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Unread 10 Mar 2010, 16:19   #106
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Wait a moment here, u wanted them removed entirely, how would that help u there?
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Unread 10 Mar 2010, 16:27   #107
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Either make it kill ship, second target, lower init or something like that.

Now it's a joke
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Unread 10 Mar 2010, 16:48   #108
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Re: Round 36 Stats

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=5e3k3pwrp8c3mws
It performs adiquately in defence tho, teamup for attack.
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Unread 10 Mar 2010, 17:25   #109
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by E-Choke View Post
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=7xbeco7odcsf88t

Another way to be sure you get ****ed by the pillager
Amusingly I had someone in pm whining about how no de fleet could roid etd and that I had to do something to change this. One must always appreciate the little things in life.
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Unread 10 Mar 2010, 17:28   #110
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Re: Round 36 Stats

LOL

Anyway, will you change anything before stats get final?
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Unread 10 Mar 2010, 17:55   #111
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by BaasB View Post
LOL

Anyway, will you change anything before stats get final?
In fairness I said I was finished, it's up to appoco now!
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Unread 13 Mar 2010, 19:00   #112
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by E-Choke View Post
Either make it kill ship, second target, lower init or something like that.

Now it's a joke
actually its a very good ship, your just not using it right....anyway, if you think its such a joke, dont build it?
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Unread 17 Mar 2010, 07:56   #113
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Re: Round 36 Stats

One little question: Are the fighter ships of Ter, Xan, and Zik meant to be without any emp-resistance or did someone forget to add emp resistance to them? :P
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Unread 17 Mar 2010, 08:11   #114
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Pretty sure it's supposed to be this way.
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Unread 17 Mar 2010, 15:38   #115
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
One little question: Are the fighter ships of Ter, Xan, and Zik meant to be without any emp-resistance or did someone forget to add emp resistance to them? :P
With the way EMP works they do have some EMP resistance in the sense that each ship absorbs one EMP gun. So it isn't like one EMP ship can freeze all of your FI. The EMP resistance modifier simply decreases the effectiveness of EMP guns. So with a resistance of 0, each FI only absorbs the shot of one gun, rather then potentially more. This is a perfectly normal occurrence and not a big deal.
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Unread 17 Mar 2010, 16:22   #116
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Re: Round 36 Stats

I get a lot of questions about this so I'll try to outline it as briefly and clearly as I can. The important thing about emp is not ship versus ship it's number of emp guns versus emp resistance. One gun can freeze one ship with 0 emp resistance. If a ship has an e/r of 50 that means that it needs 2 guns to freeze it. Equally 75 means that you would need 4 guns to freeze it, 3 out of 4 get blocked effectively. That's the only way to actually read the stats (as relating to emp) without loading the stats analysis page), you take the number of emp guns on your emp ship and compare it to the e/r of your target shit. So 1 guardian, with 23 guns, can freeze 1.15 wyverns, which have an emp resistance of 95.

This is why you're able to fiddle with emp to make it so that the t2s are as easy to freeze as the t1s (despite the fact that the combat engine decreases their efficiency down to 60%). You have it so that everything 'fires the same way', so co and then fi, fr and then de, bs and then cr on the current stats set. Just lower the general e/r of the second set, fi/de/cr, by 40% relative to the cost for emp resistance of the first set, and they'll get emped at the same efficiency.
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Unread 17 Mar 2010, 19:29   #117
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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This is why you're able to fiddle with emp to make it so that the t2s are as easy to freeze as the t1s (despite the fact that the combat engine decreases their efficiency down to 60%). You have it so that everything 'fires the same way', so co and then fi, fr and then de, bs and then cr on the current stats set. Just lower the general e/r of the second set, fi/de/cr, by 40% relative to the cost for emp resistance of the first set, and they'll get emped at the same efficiency.
I think this is one of the big things that really confuses people about EMP. It seems counter intuitive that efficiencies for EMP can actually go UP on a T2 over a T1. This is at some level a fundamental flaw in the way EMP works, but it does make for some interesting stats "gotchas."
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Unread 17 Mar 2010, 20:16   #118
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Thanks for elaborating on that JBG. It is all crystal clear now.
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Unread 17 Mar 2010, 21:05   #119
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
I think this is one of the big things that really confuses people about EMP. It seems counter intuitive that efficiencies for EMP can actually go UP on a T2 over a T1. This is at some level a fundamental flaw in the way EMP works, but it does make for some interesting stats "gotchas."
No, it is not. If a stats maker feels like giving corvettes less armor than fighters, that is not a "fundamental flaw in the way kill combat works" either, just a quirk the stats maker can decide to build in (or not).


On a sidenote, I would totally be interested in a set of stats in which T1 has 30% eff, T2 60% and T3 100%. Yay for flak!
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Unread 18 Mar 2010, 00:51   #120
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Re: Round 36 Stats

i'll work on one in my spare time, mz. if i'm not boo'd off the stage since my nick isn't "JBG"
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Unread 18 Mar 2010, 05:47   #121
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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No, it is not. If a stats maker feels like giving corvettes less armor than fighters, that is not a "fundamental flaw in the way kill combat works" either, just a quirk the stats maker can decide to build in (or not).
Armor has nothing to do with EMP, the only things that matter are, guns, number of ships, and EMP resistance. What happens often with multi targeting stats is that the number of guns an EMP ship has is tailored to thet T1 ships and not the T2. So sometimes the T2 has a lower EMP resistance not because the stats maker specifically intended this effect* but because the secondary class has fewer ships on average in it then the T1 class. For example if the T1 was FI and the T2 was FR, because FR cost way more then FI the guns that were meant to target FI are overkill on FR. I really think this is a flaw in the way multitargeting works for EMP, because the behavior for non EMP ships is totally different. Armor matters not the number of ships. So for kill/steal it is the amount of armor that counts so the reduction of damage for T2 automatically results in fewer kills (by value) because the decrease in the amount of damage inflicted has a large impact. This is intuitive and the player base whether newbie or veteran all understand this and it makes sense.

The way EMP works with the number of ships rather then the value of the ships mattering totally throws off people's intuition and therefore is in my opinion a flaw in the game design. Admittedly it is an interesting quirk and can be fun for the stats maker and those of us who are stats nerds, but for the average player it adds unnecessary confusion to the game and therefore violates the KISS principle.


*I am not saying this necessarily applies to JBG, he has an excellent understanding of the combat engine and does this purposefully, at least in most cases.
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Unread 18 Mar 2010, 11:25   #122
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Probably seems a dumb question, but what is the "KISS principle"??
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Unread 18 Mar 2010, 11:45   #123
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Keep it simple stupid
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Unread 19 Mar 2010, 05:36   #124
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Re: Round 36 Stats

You kind of dropped the ball this time around m8.
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Unread 19 Mar 2010, 14:16   #125
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Re: Round 36 Stats

It would certainly appear so!
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Unread 21 Mar 2010, 02:22   #126
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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It would certainly appear so!
The most obvious thing I suppose is that Terrans are bloody useless. As in, very nearly unplayable.

Out of a possible 14 fleets about 6-7 are actually somewhat decent.

Not your finest work :/
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Unread 21 Mar 2010, 17:00   #127
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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The most obvious thing I suppose is that Terrans are bloody useless. As in, very nearly unplayable.

Out of a possible 14 fleets about 6-7 are actually somewhat decent.

Not your finest work :/
I think BlueArmy disagrees!
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Unread 9 Apr 2010, 16:59   #128
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Re: Round 36 Stats

well jbg you kinda failed on this set m8 where you on drugs?
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Unread 10 Apr 2010, 09:42   #129
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Re: Round 36 Stats

As in regards to everyone going fico?
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Unread 10 Apr 2010, 14:56   #130
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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well jbg you kinda failed on this set m8 where you on drugs?
Racewise it seems okay bar etd to me. Fi/co wise it sort of sucks if you don't like fi/co heavy rounds. I'd make a few changes to try and balance that out, wouldn't mind having a shot to tweak these stats for next round, I think you need a round's experience to get the best stats set.
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Unread 10 Apr 2010, 18:26   #131
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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I think you need a round's experience to get the best stats set.
From experience, I totally agree.
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Unread 12 Apr 2010, 03:33   #132
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Re: Round 36 Stats

I hath graciously extended my brilliance and lended my helping hand to this poor soul in need. Also, I have JBG some pointers on how to suck less @ stats. People playing next round, you're welcome.
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 00:25   #133
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Re: Round 36 Stats

So, who else thinks that the stats are...... shit? I really enjoyed last rounds single target stats. Now alot of planets build 3 ships only plus pods and are set.
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 00:38   #134
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Re: Round 36 Stats

I am very pro another round of single targetting. Found it a lot more enjoyable. I dont expect next round to be priv gals, but i do hope for a round of ST and PG some time in the future. I wouldnt be totally opposed to next round being completely random, Or something new like 2 man buddy packs or 2-3 BPs a gal or something. Just to mix things up,

Although these stats could be made a lot more interesting too. From the top of my head, changing the Syren targetting to DE (and probably some other stats on it, but keep the low init) can make it a pretty fun ship, with obvious strengths and weaknesses, And ships like that makes stats much ore interesting.
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 04:31   #135
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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From the top of my head...
Stick to "your mum" jokes.
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 10:20   #136
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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I am very pro another round of single targetting. Found it a lot more enjoyable. I dont expect next round to be priv gals, but i do hope for a round of ST and PG some time in the future. I wouldnt be totally opposed to next round being completely random, Or something new like 2 man buddy packs or 2-3 BPs a gal or something. Just to mix things up,

Although these stats could be made a lot more interesting too. From the top of my head, changing the Syren targetting to DE (and probably some other stats on it, but keep the low init) can make it a pretty fun ship, with obvious strengths and weaknesses, And ships like that makes stats much ore interesting.
I love ST stats but i would hate to see a full random round with ST stats, considering how much more you rely on your galaxy when you've got massive holes in your fleet. I think, if we're ever going to do a full random round.. the stats should allow a player to make themselves into a fortress (and less relying on galaxy) to try and balance those people who land in crap galaxys.
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 10:33   #137
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Re: Round 36 Stats

I am pro single-targetting stats!
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 13:13   #138
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Re: Round 36 Stats

single targetting, and I wont play.
plz make it ST! Then maybe, just maybe we will see a planetarion round with less than 1k planets
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 13:26   #139
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
single targetting, and I wont play.
plz make it ST! Then maybe, just maybe we will see a planetarion round with less than 1k planets
Shut up you faggot.
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 13:33   #140
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Shut up you faggot.
hehe.
set a random round at summer, and to top it make it ST. That wont attract alot of players, and u know that
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 14:01   #141
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Re: Round 36 Stats

To be honest I really don't think that the actual variation* will be more than a hundred planets regardless of what we do for next round.


*I think there'll be a small drop next round regardless due to a) summer and b) the fact private gals seem to almost certainly be only a one round thing.
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 15:00   #142
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Racewise it seems okay bar etd to me. Fi/co wise it sort of sucks if you don't like fi/co heavy rounds. I'd make a few changes to try and balance that out, wouldn't mind having a shot to tweak these stats for next round, I think you need a round's experience to get the best stats set.
Having too many(maybe 3<, maybe even 2<) races with FI/CO seems inherently broken based on how players react.

Even if the set were technically balanced, as soon as more races go FI/CO heavy there is automatically less anti FI/CO and more anti CR/BS in the universe, which makes FI/CO better and CR/BS shitter and so on.

The theory's simple, but we've tested it out at least a couple of times now and it seems to back up the idea.



A side effect of this is if you try and balance CR/BS by making them wtfpwn awesome against likely defence fleets, all FI/CO races now must have similar anti CR/BS class setup and targeting priorities and that's a bit boring.
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 16:04   #143
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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A side effect of this is if you try and balance CR/BS by making them wtfpwn awesome against likely defence fleets, all FI/CO races now must have similar anti CR/BS class setup and targeting priorities and that's a bit boring.
cr/bs is kinda awesome this round...
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 18:40   #144
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Yeah of course, cept noone bar caths can afford to invest a lot in cr\bs due to then being roided silly by all the fico in uni.
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 19:00   #145
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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cr/bs is kinda awesome this round...
I assumed based on comments here and an out of date uni fleet distribution.

Maybe I'm completely wrong; but if CR/BS is 'kinda awesome' yet the uni is still FI/CO heavy then that might demonstrate my point.
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 19:11   #146
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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single targetting, and I wont play.
plz make it ST! Then maybe, just maybe we will see a planetarion round with less than 1k planets
Wasnt everyone saying that last round when the PA Team implemented single targetting? then at the end of the round, ALOT of players were posting that they enjoyed it.

If its Single Targetting next round, you will play wishmaster and you will play actively.

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To be honest I really don't think that the actual variation* will be more than a hundred planets regardless of what we do for next round.


*I think there'll be a small drop next round regardless due to a) summer and b) the fact private gals seem to almost certainly be only a one round thing.
Has private galaxys actually increased the number of active or upgraded players?
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 19:16   #147
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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I assumed based on comments here and an out of date uni fleet distribution.

Maybe I'm completely wrong; but if CR/BS is 'kinda awesome' yet the uni is still FI/CO heavy then that might demonstrate my point.
because i allready got alot of co and i cba to build heavy facts!
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 19:42   #148
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Has private galaxys actually increased the number of active or upgraded players?
I don't know, but if it has, I would say that has more to do with the fact that it was a big change than with what the chance actually entailed.
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 19:52   #149
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Re: Round 36 Stats

I know one change that private galaxies has definitely had, I have met a lot more active newbies in my public gal this round then in prior rounds. This is something I have enjoyed, but the private gal system is so flawed that I won't be sorry to see it go.
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Unread 16 Apr 2010, 21:01   #150
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Even if the set were technically balanced, as soon as more races go FI/CO heavy there is automatically less anti FI/CO and more anti CR/BS in the universe, which makes FI/CO better and CR/BS shitter and so on.
I won't provide the source material, but I can state that you're incorrect in these assumptions, at least concerning fleet distributions this round.
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