Refund

[Conall]

In all seriousness, this isn't what I paid for so what is the protocol for refunds. Does Jolt have a mechanism or must I drag my credit card company onto this.

[Gerbie]

Originally Posted by Conall

In all seriousness, this isn't what I paid for so what is the protocol for refunds. Does Jolt have a mechanism or must I drag my credit card company onto this.

What didn't you pay for. You paid for a planetarion account. That's what you've got. The EULA doesn't say there won't be any shuffles or anything.

[Desse]

He paid for an account, which would be in a gal with 5 privates and 5 randoms.

Since Spinner did a lousy job on the random placement code, some gals were left to dry, and got only inactive unpaid accounts from the shuffle, while some gals could exile untill they had their 10 active paid accounts before shuffle.

I would say, he should look into every avenue possible to get a refund.

[TheRat]

Bullshit.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by TheRat

Bullshit.

Not quite. The current exile/signup placement code is flawed in such a manner that it virtually guaranteed that without the shuffle many galaxies would never see any randoms. Even currently there is very little point in exiling until the ratio of exiles to signups is radically changed in favor of signups. Which, heh, isn't a very likely event. In fact, the more likely chain of events is that the galaxies that got free randoms will lose them, then be stuck without a chance to get new signups, while occasionally receiving a trickle-down inactive.

But don't count on a refund. You pay for a service not a product, which legally is a whole different can of worms.

[Conall]

Originally Posted by Gerbie

What didn't you pay for. You paid for a planetarion account. That's what you've got. The EULA doesn't say there won't be any shuffles or anything.

Gerbie, to this point I have not argued that the EULA was broken, I dont really need to.I paid for a service that was faulty due to error on Jolts side, they have admitted as much in these forums. They have attempted to remedy the situation, but not to my satisfaction. Its that simple. Clearly I am not the only one in PA that feels this was handled incorrectly, so perhaps Jolt will stil lfind a way to make things right or at least better to my satisfaction. But no one, including Jolt cannot argue that this round has not gone as planned or advertised, that there are not a large number of unhappy customers and that their solutions (both of them) have been riddled with problems that change the way the game is played.

I have simply requested information to understand what mechanism Jolt has in place for refunds for unsatisfied customers.

[Conall]

Originally Posted by TheRat

Bullshit.

Such eloquence.

[Conall]

Originally Posted by Jester

But don't count on a refund. You pay for a service not a product, which legally is a whole different can of worms.

You are exactly right Jester, it is a service, that is why the EULA doesn't apply. At this point all I have asked is what the mechanism is for a refund. I still hope Jolt will come up with a reasonable solution so I will not need to request one.

But regardless of what Jolt's policy is I do know what my credit card companies policy is, so I feel confident that I will receive what ever credit I apply for. Its just much easier all the way aroud of Jolt has an established policy. Which they should since it is a requirement for most Credit Card companies to business with you.

[TheRat]

I deserved that Jester, for being unclear. My "bullshit" was intended to describe the socalled right to a refund.

[TheRat]

And Conall, once your creditcard company has transfered the money legaly, theres no way they can demand it back for you. That would be like giving someone a cookie, watch him eat it then demand it back.

[G.K Zhukov]

I guess he thinks the cookie wasnt the quality he was told, TheRat.
And stop beeing such an a**.

[TheRat]

Its not the cookie-eater wanting a refund, its the giver wanting the bad cookie back.

[jvg]

damn this round has been terrible so far and they expect more people to come heh.

[Nology]

Actually the cookie giver would have been Jolt since it is their product. But whatever, if he wants a refund let him ask there's no reason for him not to pursue it. It is his opinion in the end and no one elses.

[Agerus]

I doubt anyone will be uber rich with this game, neither Jolt nor the dev crew. I'm sure they spend much more time with this game than they paid for anyway. So I really don't understand all the trouble.

[anomnorway]

May I ask why the planets with 0 roids weren´t tweaked out before the shuffle?

[derry]

i doubt they will answer (on both (refund and < 9 roid planets)

[Ferretus]

They normally have very selective hearing when talking about such things

[Barrow|Pony]

I'm glad you guys read the EULA before you agreed to it.

Section two of the User agreement

2. All fees are prepaid and non-refundable.
Upon completing the payment through one of the
implemented payment solutions, we will automatically complete the
transaction of the selected method of payment the Account fee plus
any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize
us to do so.

[Inca]

Quite possibly the worst thread on here (althou i will look for something started by Barrow and compare).

I can't believe how hypocritical some people can be. If PA crew didn't admit mistakes, and i think that in ages past most would agree they didn't use to, so now they do and some moron thinks his credit card compant is going to take some nominal amount from them? Without a doubt the galaxy set up was flawed, equally the shuffle didn't benefit everyone, but whats your point? Like it has already been pointed out you paid for an account and got it, not getting what was advertised? i can't find the "advertisement" that reads that the game is flawless and you will be ensured a great round in a great galaxy. If you are paid then you had the option to make a galaxy with 4 of your friends (no comments here please), so what is your problem? at the very least you are in a galaxy with 4 friends and that is more than enough to play a good round of planetarion.

I hate the selfish and narrowminded people that flame constantly with nothing positive to say, but even worse posting on planetation discussions about refunds. Get a grip, if you don't like a part of pa, then post on suggestions something constructive and something that will help the game not just yourself, if you really don't like pa to the point you think its beyond help, then leave, but don't make ridicolous posts about your "alleged" rights to a refund.

Perhaps if people like you didn't make these kinds of posts the pa team could spend more time working out future rounds and looking at serious suggestions/discussions and also consider idea's from people who want a great game, not just some attention.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Inca

Perhaps if people like you didn't make these kinds of posts the pa team could spend more time working out future rounds

Yeah, right.

Because they don't manage to make the same mistakes they do every single round, again and again. The how manieth round is this in which there is question as to whether there'll even be a shuffle up until after tickstart, followed by a haphazardly implemented solution that in the end turns out to be plainly circumvented by players still managing to gain advantage?

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by TheRat

Its not the cookie-eater wanting a refund, its the giver wanting the bad cookie back.

Thanks for not getting it.
Your grasp of the english language is on par with a certain George Walker Bush.

[Pinkerton]

mmmmmm coookies

[Conall]

Originally Posted by TheRat

And Conall, once your creditcard company has transfered the money legaly, theres no way they can demand it back for you. That would be like giving someone a cookie, watch him eat it then demand it back.

I am not trying to pick a fight with you Rat, but I am not sure what your interest is in this, since I was addressing Jolt/PATeam. Regardless, you are 100% wrong. Clearly you have not been involved in a lot of credit issues and don't understand banking policy.

First, having signed many vendor agreements with Credit Card companies I know beyond a shadow of doubt that CC companies/banks have the legal authority based on their contracts with vendors to withdraw payment. I also know for a fact they do so frequently. Plus, they have the fiscal weight to force the issue if they feel the need. And the clause in Jolts EULA cannot prevent that.

Seond I asked Jolt/PATeam what their mechanism for refund and nothing more.

Third, I have spoken with my CC company and it is very likely I will receive a refund regardless of what Jolt chooses to do. You see, my credit card company understands customer service and value their customers. All that remains for me to do is sign a request document. Although I likely will not see that refund before Christmas it seems I will see it, if I request it in writting. When I asked if they would be able to recover their money from Jolt, they reply was they did not know, but that was their problem and not mine, they would take care of it because I was their customer. There were some other interesting bits of information as well.

And lastly Rat, if you choose to pay for products and services you are not satisfied with, then that is your prerogative. Personally, that is not how I operate. That said, there are a number of ways that Jolt can remedy this with me, and it does not mean I will not return as a paying customer. Regardless, their performance in this case has not lived up to my expectations and I will seek remedy for that lack of performance. Like I said earlier, that's just business.

[JonnyBGood]

Christ almighty how much did you ****ing pay?

[Conall]

Originally Posted by Inca

Quite possibly the worst thread on here (althou i will look for something started by Barrow and compare).

I can't believe how hypocritical some people can be. If PA crew didn't admit mistakes, and i think that in ages past most would agree they didn't use to, so now they do and some moron thinks his credit card compant is going to take some nominal amount from them? Without a doubt the galaxy set up was flawed, equally the shuffle didn't benefit everyone, but whats your point? Like it has already been pointed out you paid for an account and got it, not getting what was advertised? i can't find the "advertisement" that reads that the game is flawless and you will be ensured a great round in a great galaxy. If you are paid then you had the option to make a galaxy with 4 of your friends (no comments here please), so what is your problem? at the very least you are in a galaxy with 4 friends and that is more than enough to play a good round of planetarion.

I hate the selfish and narrowminded people that flame constantly with nothing positive to say, but even worse posting on planetation discussions about refunds. Get a grip, if you don't like a part of pa, then post on suggestions something constructive and something that will help the game not just yourself, if you really don't like pa to the point you think its beyond help, then leave, but don't make ridicolous posts about your "alleged" rights to a refund.

Perhaps if people like you didn't make these kinds of posts the pa team could spend more time working out future rounds and looking at serious suggestions/discussions and also consider idea's from people who want a great game, not just some attention.

Sorry you think my stance is hypocritcal, but it is not. If I order a meal and it isn't right, the resturant makes it right, if my visit to a hotel doesn't live up to my expectation they make it right, if a laundry ruins my suit they make it right. Jolt's performance and correction has not live up to my expectation and expect them to mak ei right, if they can't or won't then I have other recourse. I choose financial institutions because they value my patronage, and they will make this situation right if Jolt doesn't.

I do not think it is selfish to require performance when you pay for a product or service. I have not flamed Jolt at all. In fact I first played PA more than 4 years ago and have always supported their efforts and still do. I have paid for their service in the past without issue, and will likely do so in the future, in fact have already paid for credits for future rounds. I have not once taken shots at Jolt or PATeam, saying things like this game has become crap, unlike many of the post I see in these forums. In fact on balance I think they do a pretty decent job, but I am not satisfied with their performance in this case. And as I stated I expect them to make it right, just like my company does when we have an unsatisfied customer.

[Conall]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Christ almighty how much did you ****ing pay?

It isn't the amount that matters.

[jerome]

Just play the ****ing game. You think these sorts of situation have never happened before? Adjust to it, show versatlity, and grow some ****ing balls, dude

[Conall]

Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_

Just play the ****ing game. You think these sorts of situation have never happened before? Adjust to it, show versatlity, and grow some ****ing balls, dude

I am playing, I have adjusted and I have balls. It will be made right.

But as many people that flame Jolt and complain about how lame the game has become and how little Jolt does for PA, I am a little suprised at the reaction this topic has received.

[wakey]

Third, I have spoken with my CC company and it is very likely I will receive a refund regardless of what Jolt chooses to do. You see, my credit card company understands customer service and value their customers. All that remains for me to do is sign a request document. Although I likely will not see that refund before Christmas it seems I will see it, if I request it in writting. When I asked if they would be able to recover their money from Jolt, they reply was they did not know, but that was their problem and not mine, they would take care of it because I was their customer. There were some other interesting bits of information as well.

HOW on earth can you justify getting your CC company to cancell the payment when its for so little. Its not like you paid a few hundred for the account and its not like they havent supplied you with an account which is playable, ok perhaps its not exactly how they said it would be but its still playable.

What you seem to not realise is by going to your credit card company and asking for your money back is that Jolt then dont just get hit for the £10 BUT also a chargeback fee which could be a fairly significcant amount (especially as Internet companies get some of the largest chargeback fees of any group) You could in effect be not only wiping out your payments but also that of someone elses.

Finally I have to say I have to say your just as much to blame for this situtaion, if people like yourself werent so bloody dumb when it comes to such situations you would have realised such problems would arise just like a number of us did and as such would have been totally against such a galaxy setup as opposed to being so strongly in faviour of it. As such id argue it was your own stupidity that got you in this situation so stop crying about it and just get on with playing the game under the same conditions as everyone else

[GReaper]

Originally Posted by wakey

What you seem to not realise is by going to your credit card company and asking for your money back is that Jolt then dont just get hit for the £10 BUT also a chargeback fee which could be a fairly significcant amount (especially as Internet companies get some of the largest chargeback fees of any group) You could in effect be not only wiping out your payments but also that of someone elses.

So, it would be far easier to give a refund, right?

A customer isn't getting the service which they paid for. If the company gives them a refund then they won't have to deal with the fees from the card companies, will they?

Or they could be awkward and face the problems you've mentioned.

[SpaceLegend]

Originally Posted by GReaper

A customer isn't getting the service which they paid for.

hmm, he paid for having an unlimited planet to play Planetarion Round 12.
Juristically, he got what he paid for, don't you think ?

[DrunkenViking]

Originally Posted by Conall

In all seriousness, this isn't what I paid for so what is the protocol for refunds. Does Jolt have a mechanism or must I drag my credit card company onto this.

lol, where did you read what you paid for?

you get what you get, this time again, you got a planetarion round. Have fun!

[Kal]

i'm going to answer a few questions here.

why were the 0 roids people not removed

we decided that it would be best not to interfere with our procedures for dealign with inacitves, as then it is fair for all. Active planets were priotised in the shuffle to go into the gals with the lowest number of paid planets to even otu the universe. This means that any galaxies with probably 7 or more paid planets would have got pretty inacitve/small freebies in their gals. This may have made their gals worse - but that is the whoel point of a shuffle, to even out the universe.

Refunds

We understand that many people are not happy about the way this roudn has turend out so far, however it is far from over and I think it could actually turn out to be a good round by the end. The EULA also states that credits are not refundable, in addition to this we allow free planets before upgrading, so we do not force anyone to upgrade in order to play, it is also worht noting that unlike in previous rounds where the first credit you purchase was used to auto upgrade you, you now have the choice whether to use it.

[Almeida]

@Conall: don't try to argue with Jérome and TheRat, it's useless as they feel like allmighty gods that know everything better than anyone else.
about the refund thingy: i understand why u want a refund, and viewed from the point of law u have the right to demand it. no matter what is written in the Eula; if some points of the Eula are against the law they are just void

[mist]

the eula is horribly illegal on several points.

however, you're probably looking at stuff under the trade descriptions act.
jolt sold you a credit, which could be used to activate a planetarion account. the credit did its job. at no point was any guarentee made that said account would be in a good galaxy. ergo, you've got no leg to stand on

-mist

[jerome]

Originally Posted by Almeida

Jérome

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...3&postcount=79

"ps. the nick is - jerome` not some gay french name, kthx."

etc.


Hi Almeida, still believe Sid is in the pa-team? :)

I think you`ll also find btw, that your "bitterness" to me and rattieboy, is due to the fact that we apparently, made you look like a fool* and thus clearly, we now believe we are gods, and "useless to argue with", don`t screw at us because you were wrong, hun.


*which you are, (:add a few banana smilies there to represent the shitness of this post:)

[Kloopy]

I'm speaking from a personal view here, nothing to do with Jolt or PA;

Noone has asked exactly what Conall expected when he paid for his credit(s). I'm very interested to see, with backing evidence exactly what Conall paid for. As far as I can make out, when you purchase credits, all you are paying for is the ability to upgrade your planet to remove the freebie limits. I've never seen in my entire history with PA - which is many many years now - anything whatsoever giving any guarantees to the setup of the galaxy you end up in. I've never even seen a PACrew/PATeam member telling anyone that if they pay for a credit that they'll get a good galaxy.

You paid for an upgraded planet. Unless there was some huge bug which has been covered up, I'm quite sure that you didn't loose that upgrade during the shuffle. Therefore, you have what you paid for. Complainin on these forums is negative publicity for Jolt. Your mindless complaining could have cost the game by discouraging prospective new players.

Please, for all of us and for the game, think next time before trying something like this.

[Conall]

Kal - Thanks for the reply. Jolt/PATeam was whom I originally asked for information from. Now I have what I consider an official response. I am not making an indictment of Jolt or Planetarion or PATeam. I am simply not satisfied with the performance of PA thus far this round. As I have stated before Jolt is running a business and I believe most of the complaints I see in this forum fail to realize that. That said, I don't believe Jolt performed as it should have and started a game with faulty code or at best faulty logic/decisions. In the same vain, when a business does not live up to expectation then remedies such as refunds is a generally accepted business practice. As I have said, my financial institution will remedy it since Jolt won't. This may or may not actually affect Jolt, but as the CC company told me, that is not my concern. I will consistently argue that Jolt has the right to do what they wish with the game, they paid for it. I will maintain my stance that I have the right to expect a certain level of performance from Jolt, because I paid for it. I truly hope the round does improve and I am proved wrong, but I also hope, in fact expect, Jolt will learn from this rounds mistakes and improve the situation for this round and for future rounds.

Thanks
Conall

[jerome]

Yep. The logic of decisions made by the PATeam wasn`t anywhere near as good as it should be, but you paid for an account, not for 24/7 perfect admins. Remember, they still do not get paid (right?). It`s a rather poor excuse, but you cannot justify a refund because of it either.

[G.K Zhukov]

Conall, though I might not agree with you, I will give you a free tip.

Dont pay any attention to the "I know all and your a n00b, so you have no rights to come here and ask questions" people.
Sadly this is a long tradition here on these boards.

[arbondigo]

So if someone roids you and destroys all your ships will you want a refund for that too?

[Conall]

Several people have made valid arguments about what I did or did not pay for. When you purchase a credit to activate an account there are certain risk inherent in the rules and play of the game, I understood and accepted those risk. Where we differ is that Jolt/PA made an error in their code or logic and was forced to make changes that have affected the game play for the entire round. The way it was handled was far from effective. I never expected to be placed in the best galaxy or have the best randoms. What I did expect was that everyone would have the same opportunity to have the best galaxy and best actives. The way the round unfolded that did not occur. Some galaxies never got beyond 5 or 6 planets and were effectively locked out from getting active randoms. Galaxies that did fill up had the opportunity to "buy" their actives and keep them in place leaving the least active to be spread out through the universe.

[Conall]

Several people have made valid arguments about what I did or did not pay for. When you purchase a credit to activate an account there are certain risk inherent in the rules and play of the game, I understood and accepted those risk. Where we differ is that Jolt/PA made an error in their code or logic and was forced to make changes that have affected the game play for the entire round. The way it was handled was far from effective. I never expected to be placed in the best galaxy or have the best randoms. What I did expect was that everyone would have the same opportunity to have the best galaxy and best actives. The way the round unfolded that did not occur. Some galaxies never got beyond 5 or 6 planets and were effectively locked out from getting active randoms. Galaxies that did fill up had the opportunity to "buy" their actives and keep them in place leaving the least active to be spread out through the universe.

As far as buying credits, well I can assure you that when one of my clients buys a block of time, I can not claim they got what they paid for because the time was used. Performance has been and always will be the measure of a company.

I have been involved in far more EULA issues than I care to remember, EULA have specific areas where they are considered legally binding, beyond that it is a lot of rhetoric used in an attempt to stake out claim territory that is generally not legally binding, and as was stated my Mist, may be illegal in and of its self.

Again, I hold no malice toward Jolt or PATeam. They run a business, I am a customer, I have certain expectations. That is true even if their business model means they do not pay their employees or make a profit.

[mist]

from a customer service pov i have to agree with you

however, what jolt should do and what you can compel them to do are two very different things. if we get right down to it, your previous expectations were rather unreasonable, given the cockups that usually acompany a round start

-mist

[Conall]

Originally Posted by arbondigo

So if someone roids you and destroys all your ships will you want a refund for that too?

No, that is part of game play and is to be expected. That, unfortunatly, I did pay for.

[Inca]

Originally Posted by Conall

Sorry you think my stance is hypocritcal, but it is not. If I order a meal and it isn't right, the resturant makes it right, if my visit to a hotel doesn't live up to my expectation they make it right, if a laundry ruins my suit they make it right. Jolt's performance and correction has not live up to my expectation and expect them to mak ei right, if they can't or won't then I have other recourse. I choose financial institutions because they value my patronage, and they will make this situation right if Jolt doesn't.

I do not think it is selfish to require performance when you pay for a product or service. I have not flamed Jolt at all. In fact I first played PA more than 4 years ago and have always supported their efforts and still do. I have paid for their service in the past without issue, and will likely do so in the future, in fact have already paid for credits for future rounds. I have not once taken shots at Jolt or PATeam, saying things like this game has become crap, unlike many of the post I see in these forums. In fact on balance I think they do a pretty decent job, but I am not satisfied with their performance in this case. And as I stated I expect them to make it right, just like my company does when we have an unsatisfied customer.

When you order a meal you know what to expect, when you visit a hotel you know what to expect and if they don't provide that you have the right to complain that they did not meet their promises, it is often suggested they refund you if you have satisfactory grounds. Having been a manager in a food serving enviroment we meet people almost daily who will complain for no reason, it makes it very difficult to sive out who has a genuine problem and who doesn't. So just like your analogy i think that the goal here is to find out the real problem. Like somebody pointed out your not suffering froma ridiciolous bug, or an accoutn crippling error, you are just making a complaint because even though you have 5 paid accounts you want more. I know which catergory of complainee i would put you in, and frankly, just like most people complaining in a restaurant you just want attention, freebies and apologies. You got attention with this thread which as sum1 said above is detrimental to the future of the game, you have had apologies for the fact that the shuffle did not make a perfectly balanced universe, yet still you persist and want more. Keeping going on your own metaphor of a restaurant, the other people posting here are happily eating away and enjoying their time with Jolt, of course everything is not 100% flawless, very little in life is, but like the hypothetical restaurant they are looking at you and all coming to the same conclusion that you are just whining for the sake of it.

I am nothing to do with the pa team or forums because i would not tolerate bullshit like this, i would have blocked this thread the first time i saw it and if you persisted i would block you. You are speaking with grace on here and agreeably you are not resorting to name calling or flaming but that doesn't make your point any more valid. Blatantly Jolt said in no uncertain terms no refunds, if you wern't happy with that then why pay in the first place? much like me you probably never read the EULA or whatever it is called, cause there is little point, you know wen u pay for a credit you will get one. I think you implied you had a business which suggests to me your not young like i first mistook you for, but in business you must be very ignorant if you think 100% of people will be "satisfied" with your product, but the percent that aren't, are they dis-satisified with what they paid for? or with what they perceived and with no justification assumed they would get? Again i think logic puts you firmly in one of those catergories.

[Conall]

Originally Posted by mist

from a customer service pov i have to agree with you

however, what jolt should do and what you can compel them to do are two very different things. if we get right down to it, your previous expectations were rather unreasonable, given the cockups that usually acompany a round start

-mist

Mist, that is the most valid argument against my position I have seen yet.

[biffy]

Whilst I can appreciate the fact that you are not enjoying the galaxy that you may have hoped for we have taken reasonable steps to resolve the issue of the galaxy setup that has been a problem for some people at the start of this round.

The refund policy is clear and, whilst your CC company may refund you, the fact is that you have been provided with the product you paid for. The game is there, it is functioning normally and is available to you for the next 9+ weeks to play if you so wish.

We operate a no-refund policy for customers as it would be far too easy to abuse if there was a refund policy based on the quality of your gaming experience as, in any online game, your experience does tend to be reliant on factors not under your or our control. If Planetarion was an "off the shelf" game then you may of course be able to claim a refund from the retailer as a number of these operate a no-quibble returns policy but this is simply not practical for an online game such as ours.

[LordBrem]

You paid for a half random round, what did you expect?

Stop whining, if you hate it so much go play another game.