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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 20:06   #51
Geeza
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Quote:
Originally posted by RiCo
Surly they are connected. The point of it is, it's so easy to look for moral obligations when they are indeed simple to follow, but when they are a few thousand km away we don't give a rat's ass what happens to humans. On the other hand; whaling in Japan and Norway is beeing chritizied, even taken action against. How come?
because there are people that care about the whales, and the possible exctinction of their species (whether this is good or bad - im not going to say).

Remove the whales from the equation.

Will human rights/quality of life improve in *africa?

No.

Lets say you could change the way people think - and you could make it so people didn't give a damn about whales or bull fighting....would we see an increase in human rights/quality of life in *africa?

Umm... Nope.

It maybe that I mis-understand you....so excuse me if I do.

The argument that it is a bad thing for people to care about animals when humans are suffering - has some validity.

The argument that we should allow bullfighting and dog hitting and whale hunting BECAUSE there are humans suffering has no merit what so ever as the two are not linked

*africa just being a random country just for an example
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Last edited by Geeza; 11 Jan 2003 at 01:09.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:04   #52
Dante Hicks
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vermillion
Assisted suicide is the same. yes there are some people who truly want to die. There are others who through depression, malaise, mental illness, poor coping mechanisms, or any one of a millon other reasons are at a desperate time, from whch if given the chance they will recover.
No offence, but not everybody wants to hand over this kind of power of what free individuals can/can't do to doctors or the state (or your girlfriend). I don't think the law should be there to be our parents.

In the long run, I may not want to die. In the long run, I may not want to take heroin. In the long run, I may not want to drop out of University, live with the homeless and regularly take it up the arse from a guy named Bubba. But for God's sake let me be the one to decide what I want.

And as for a law to differentiate the hypothetical 10% from the 90% - this is easy. We have numerous processes for establishing if someone us is capable of making their own decisions - as in disputes over wills, power of attorney, etc. As it stands now, you can prove you are 100% rational to the Courts and they still won't give you the right to end your own life. Which is certainly wrong.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:08   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks


And as for a law to differentiate the hypothetical 10% from the 90% - this is easy. We have numerous processes for establishing if someone us is capable of making their own decisions - as in disputes over wills, power of attorney, etc. As it stands now, you can prove you are 100% rational to the Courts and they still won't give you the right to end your own life. Which is certainly wrong.
If suicide was not illegal, there would be no way to force people who attempted suicide but failed to recieve medical/psychiatric treatment.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:17   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
As it stands now, you can prove you are 100% rational to the Courts and they still won't give you the right to end your own life. Which is certainly wrong.
The sooner people begin to accept they have no inherent rights the better.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:17   #55
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:26   #56
Dante Hicks
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Quote:
Originally posted by pablissimo
The sooner people begin to accept they have no inherent rights the better.
OK. Imagine this : I am in a great deal of pain, and wish to end my life. I am fully rational and have given this matter a great deal of thought. Due to the weakness of my body, I ask a close personal friend to assist me end my life. He consults with my doctor who assures him that I am perfectly rational and coherent, but obviously suffering the effects of my illness. He then helps me (buys pills, etc) which end my life. This is all done in my home, between two consenting adults.

The police then arrest him and the courts put him in prison. Forget rights, does this sound fair?
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:35   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
OK. Imagine this : I am in a great deal of pain, and wish to end my life. I am fully rational and have given this matter a great deal of thought. Due to the weakness of my body, I ask a close personal friend to assist me end my life. He consults with my doctor who assures him that I am perfectly rational and coherent, but obviously suffering the effects of my illness. He then helps me (buys pills, etc) which end my life. This is all done in my home, between two consenting adults.

The police then arrest him and the courts put him in prison. Forget rights, does this sound fair?
I'm in no way saying that in certain situations the law should be flexible, I'm all for assisted suicide if a person cannot perform the act themselves and is in such unbearable agony. The problem is that you then have to define the point at which this becomes an acceptable practice.

My comment was more targetted towards the assumption that 'I'm an indepenent being, therefore I get to decide my own future, whether or not that includes ending my life'.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 14:59   #58
RiCo
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geeza
because there are people that care about the whales, and the possible exctinction of their species (whether this is good or bad - im not going to say).

Remove the whales from the equation.

Will human rights/quality of life improve in *africa?

No.

Lets say you could change the way people think - and you could make it so people didn't give a damn about whales or bull fighting....would we see an increase in human rights/quality of life in *africa?

Umm... Nope.

It maybe that I mis-understand you....so excuse me if I do.

The argument that it is a bad thing for people to care about animals when humans are suffering - has some validity.

The argument that we should allow bullfighting and dog hitting and whale hunting BECAUSE there are humans suffering has no merit what so ever as the two are not linked

*africa just being a random country just for an example
I don't think your misunderstanding my point of view, but you take it to litteraly. Unless we start to focus on the real 'bad' in society, and the apathy that flurishes all around us, and even in our rules and practises of law, we might not make it through the next millennia(sp?).

The suicide rate among people in general is rapidly increasing, and all we do is make a law against it, and send them to therapy if they do indeed try. Let's take a look at the cause, instead of the effect.

(I will type more later, but at the moment my Gf is making breakfast. She will be pissed if I don't help her. GOD AM I A FREE MAN!)
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 16:21   #59
Lole
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[quote]Originally posted by Geeza
[b]because there are people that care about the whales, and the possible exctinction of their species (whether this is good or bad - im not going to say).
[quote]
I know you're like not talking against whaling...
However, just one point.
Perhaps previously the whales in Japanese seas were verging on extinction (which had a lot to do with the Americans as well) but now, too rapid multiplication is, as is a recurrent case in most animal protection activities, having a destablising effect on the local ecosystem.
Furthermore, we are whaling well into the limits of tonnage set by International Agreements.

And yeah, I think the point is that people care more for people than animals, and so should divert resources and energy into saving the 3rd world, not a tiny number of bulls being killed for spectation.
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