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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 22:56   #1
bwtmc
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[Private] Game development

This thread how do you get into pa team etc highlighted something I find horribly wrong with the game's development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
The post you made BEFORE this one you have pasted somthing from a private forum. A quote from Kal. I thought you knew better then to do that furball?
Maybe the game wouldn't stay the same every round if a lot of the development was less under wraps and more open to real input. If half the issue is that we lack staff time and experience, why don't we spend our time making it easier for others to contribute?

Why don't the players see these discussions anyway?

Sure, if this was the Blizzard Entertainment forums or Andrew Gower's, the answer would be quite clear: we've got a story to tell and we've got the resources to run it, step back and listen - thank you very much. But this is the Planetarion forums, we haven't got a story to tell and we lack the internal resources to think about it let alone make it happen.
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 23:02   #2
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Re: [Private] Game development

Your qoute is a bad example - the quoted thread wasn;t really about game development, it was about internal activites to make sure pa staff are treated correctly.
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 23:05   #3
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Re: [Private] Game development

It wasn't really about the context of that quote, it reminded me of something that's puzzled me for ages.
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 23:08   #4
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Re: [Private] Game development

Game development has at varies times been attempted in public - most notably probabaly by me. However it becomes far too difficult to manage becuase forusm threads quickly get out of control if fully public. I;d favour a system where people who are inteliigent can get together and discuss ideas in the context of an overall vision and strategy for Planetarion.
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 23:12   #5
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Re: [Private] Game development

The thing is, this won't happen unless Jolt loosen up a bit. From what i experienced the sole reason for having it all private is the NDA stuff that Jolts wants in place. And the reason for that is that they are afraid other games, who actually have coding capacity, will implement these ideas/features before they ever get coded into PA. This would then, according to Jolt, lead to ppl playing those other games instead of PA.

I don't really see how that is possible with all the ideas and suggestions that are already publicly posted on the suggestion forums and can be used by whoever comes across it. But apparantly Jolt think they will lose millions of dollars on income due to features being 'stolen'. So rather than developing PA's own identity, they stick to keeping it private without any mentionalbe results (you'd think that after 6/7 rounds of 'nothing' they'd figure out a new approach might be a good idea).
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 23:12   #6
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Re: [Private] Game development

you guys seem to have an awful notion of who is useful in terms of ideas to planetarion though (as you tend to go for less argumentative and nicer, cosier type of people, which isn't much of a surprise actually)
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 23:19   #7
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Game development has at varies times been attempted in public - most notably probabaly by me. However it becomes far too difficult to manage becuase forusm threads quickly get out of control if fully public. I;d favour a system where people who are inteliigent can get together and discuss ideas in the context of an overall vision and strategy for Planetarion.
Yeah exactly (why don't we spend our time making it easier for others to contribute?). From the little i've seen / tiptoed around without signing anything, part of the problem is that when any such discussions have taken place the people involved haven't actually agreed on anything or worked on anything over a long period of time.

It'd be pretty easy to draw up a list of game fundamentals that need some work, that's a decent starting point (they're written up on here every other week). Maybe then a more sizeable group of people can take on this list, one thing at a time. Make their discussions public and give others a chance to comment on them via the forums here. Good contributors will be quite easy to see then.
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 23:23   #8
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
The thing is, this won't happen unless Jolt loosen up a bit. From what i experienced the sole reason for having it all private is the NDA stuff that Jolts wants in place. And the reason for that is that they are afraid other games, who actually have coding capacity, will implement these ideas/features before they ever get coded into PA. This would then, according to Jolt, lead to ppl playing those other games instead of PA.

I don't really see how that is possible with all the ideas and suggestions that are already publicly posted on the suggestion forums and can be used by whoever comes across it. But apparantly Jolt think they will lose millions of dollars on income due to features being 'stolen'. So rather than developing PA's own identity, they stick to keeping it private without any mentionalbe results (you'd think that after 6/7 rounds of 'nothing' they'd figure out a new approach might be a good idea).
We could go out on a limb and call the community led side of development unofficial. I can't see Jolt moaning very much at pateam for working on practical ways to get some more input.
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 23:40   #9
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
It'd be pretty easy to draw up a list of game fundamentals that need some work, that's a decent starting point (they're written up on here every other week). Maybe then a more sizeable group of people can take on this list, one thing at a time. Make their discussions public and give others a chance to comment on them via the forums here. Good contributors will be quite easy to see then.
Indeed. For instance 5 points that need to be addressed by the next round start. Achievable, Measurable Targets.

These 5 points then get worked on with a deadline which everyone is aware of.

Obviously the number 5 is just an example - also it's a feasible and realistic number. The community could get a chance to suggest these (with a 1-2 week deadline for suggestions) and then vote on which 5 are the most important to be implemented.

So by the time each new round comes around, the game is improved a little bit each time. Fiddling with the stats is about all we can do at the moment as it's pretty much the only public thing we're allowed to see.
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 23:42   #10
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Re: [Private] Game development

I actually don't think Jolt is that much of an issue. If PATeam as a whole are convinced something is a good idea and will ebenfit the game and Jolt then I am sure Jolt will back it.

I also don't think NDA's would be needed until it gets down to the actual coding of things.
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 23:44   #11
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Indeed. For instance 5 points that need to be addressed by the next round start. Achievable, Measurable Targets.

These 5 points then get worked on with a deadline which everyone is aware of.

Obviously the number 5 is just an example - also it's a feasible and realistic number. The community could get a chance to suggest these (with a 1-2 week deadline for suggestions) and then vote on which 5 are the most important to be implemented.

So by the time each new round comes around, the game is improved a little bit each time. Fiddling with the stats is about all we can do at the moment as it's pretty much the only public thing we're allowed to see.
While I agree with your first line, I don't actually think the community should have a vote on what should be prioritised in terms of game development - sure the community has a say, but at the end of the day PATeam should be making a judgement on what the key elements that need to be in place within the game to bring us closed to our as yet unpublished vision (note it is actually being written).
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 23:54   #12
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Re: [Private] Game development

as i prolly have said before,jolt doesnt care about pa, as long as it generate some extra cash for coffee and buns to the jolt dudes it stays up

but erm haveing cin in the team? its like who is he? what does he do? and whos ass did he kiss to get there he is? as aparently he doesnt do jack to pa.

marv??? woot? a support guy? just an other useless dude :/
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 23:54   #13
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I also don't think NDA's would be needed until it gets down to the actual coding of things.
Yet NDAs were required for the PAN development group - which was why I didn't join it.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 00:26   #14
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
While I agree with your first line, I don't actually think the community should have a vote on what should be prioritised in terms of game development - sure the community has a say, but at the end of the day PATeam should be making a judgement on what the key elements that need to be in place within the game to bring us closed to our as yet unpublished vision (note it is actually being written).
Why?

Surely it's the community who play the game, not the PA Team?

Not meaning to sound aggressive in my post but I don't understand why the PA Team's opinion is more important than the community's (which is what I understood from your post).
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 00:30   #15
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Re: [Private] Game development

Maybe SMART as a guideline would bne useful:

Specific (make you goals crystal clear)
Measurable (changes in a negative or a possible manner should be able to be measured, for example +250 new players)
Acceptible (is there enough acceptance in the community for the imposed changes)
Realistic (make sure the goals are achievable, don't set your aims TOO high)
Time (determine a strict timeframe in which the goals should be achieved, for example implement PAN within 3 months)

Just a simple line I learned during my management courses, found it to be quite useful for changemanagement. Don't get me wrong here, but changes should be made, this is just a tool to increase the succes of these changes.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 00:42   #16
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Why?

Surely it's the community who play the game, not the PA Team?

Not meaning to sound aggressive in my post but I don't understand why the PA Team's opinion is more important than the community's (which is what I understood from your post).
But you are stuck with the problem of working out what the community actually wants. Forum polls are inherently biased towards the more active players.

Anyway, as I've said in the past, the community rarely looks to the future and instead looks to serve itself. Hence the past suggestions of deathstars, etc. However, I don't necessarily believe that a committee of ex-PA players is necessarily any better.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 07:33   #17
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Why?

Surely it's the community who play the game, not the PA Team?

Not meaning to sound aggressive in my post but I don't understand why the PA Team's opinion is more important than the community's (which is what I understood from your post).
Our opinion isn't important no, our decision is. The community is only one stake holder for Planetarion.

The stake holders are (off the top of my head).

The community
Current customers
Future customers
Planetarion staff
Jolt staff with direct Planetarion involvement
Jolt shareholders
People who have contact with current customers

PATeams's job is to balence and prioritise the needs of our stakeholders, as such while the community could come to a consensus on what it wants PATeam cannot be obliged to follow it.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 07:34   #18
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clogg
Maybe SMART as a guideline would bne useful:

Specific (make you goals crystal clear)
Measurable (changes in a negative or a possible manner should be able to be measured, for example +250 new players)
Acceptible (is there enough acceptance in the community for the imposed changes)
Realistic (make sure the goals are achievable, don't set your aims TOO high)
Time (determine a strict timeframe in which the goals should be achieved, for example implement PAN within 3 months)

Just a simple line I learned during my management courses, found it to be quite useful for changemanagement. Don't get me wrong here, but changes should be made, this is just a tool to increase the succes of these changes.
hmm when I use SMART the A has always meant Achievable, which I know clashes with Realistic - clearly where I work someone read the wrong book :/
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 07:37   #19
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Yet NDAs were required for the PAN development group - which was why I didn't join it.
PAN's development model was different though - for a lot of things we knew waht we wnated to do, and the plan was to have a group of people to work on a reasonably detailed design and then when it was ready present it to the community.

The PAN development group failed as a concept becuase detailed design is rarely detailed and if people disagree with the feature itself they won;t put design effort in etc.

On the subject of NDAs I asked Jolt nicly to rewrite lots of it earlier this year so its now a lot nicer to thoose that sign it. We also have a cut down version that we would probabaly use for things like the PAN group where the involvmeent doesn't go as far as actual code.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 09:11   #20
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I also don't think NDA's would be needed until it gets down to the actual coding of things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
On the subject of NDAs I asked Jolt nicly to rewrite lots of it earlier this year so its now a lot nicer to thoose that sign it. We also have a cut down version that we would probabaly use for things like the PAN group where the involvmeent doesn't go as far as actual code.
So, what is it going to be, NDA's or not? Personally i will never sign a NDA for something i do voluntarily. I can understand Jolt wants it that way, but what i don't understand is that they lay claim on things that are produced without it costing anything (afaik there is currently no paid PaTeam member?) and think it will work. I am willing to contribute, but either they buy my ideas if they want to 'own' them, or its being done public ("open source").
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 09:49   #21
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Re: [Private] Game development

I think any game development should be atleast based on a community request, not being made by people in dark and murky private channels.

I dont have the confidence in the current PA crew's willingness to do this, ergo not playing sounds like a better option for me.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 10:35   #22
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Re: [Private] Game development

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Originally Posted by Kargool
I think any game development should be atleast based on a community request, not being made by people in dark and murky private channels.
I disagree with part one of that, but agree with part 2.

While I don't think think the community should have a definative say in what gets developed, they should have a real contribution into making sure anything that is developed does actually comply with PATeam's vision for the game.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 10:49   #23
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Re: [Private] Game development

and also that the pateam's vision is actually to a decent game ... are you sure you guys know what the game needs?
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 11:08   #24
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I disagree with part one of that, but agree with part 2.

While I don't think think the community should have a definative say in what gets developed, they should have a real contribution into making sure anything that is developed does actually comply with PATeam's vision for the game.

How is that possible when we never get to know anything about the visions that the pateam has.

Its like this every god damn round. You guys come up with some nice and foxy crap, we complain, saying its not a good idea, and the idea gets implemented anyways.

I will go so far as to say that the only more or less successful round PAX the PA team actually coded something benefitial to the community was last round with the alliancefund and scanner page.

And given you have had like 8 rounds to develop something, im more or less jaded because the PA team has NO insight in what the general player wants.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 11:24   #25
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
and also that the pateam's vision is actually to a decent game ... are you sure you guys know what the game needs?
Check out the threads on PD where its been discussed in public. And no, we arn't sure, no one ever can be sure.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 11:25   #26
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
How is that possible when we never get to know anything about the visions that the pateam has.

Its like this every god damn round. You guys come up with some nice and foxy crap, we complain, saying its not a good idea, and the idea gets implemented anyways.

I will go so far as to say that the only more or less successful round PAX the PA team actually coded something benefitial to the community was last round with the alliancefund and scanner page.

And given you have had like 8 rounds to develop something, im more or less jaded because the PA team has NO insight in what the general player wants.
The vision hasn't been finished yet, I aim to publish it before the next round starts, hopefully well before in fact.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 11:27   #27
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
The vision hasn't been finished yet, I aim to publish it before the next round starts, hopefully well before in fact.

Does anyone else than me get PaN flashbacks?
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 11:28   #28
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Does anyone else than me get PaN flashbacks?
no, becuase a vision isn't abour features and game design, its about top level stuff that will guide the community in coming up with ideas that can be considered.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 11:35   #29
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
no, becuase a vision isn't abour features and game design, its about top level stuff that will guide the community in coming up with ideas that can be considered.
Im more saying that because of all the pompous comments on that NOW things are going to happen, then nothing happens etc etc.

Anyways, I shouldnt really care as I dont intend to play anymore.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 11:41   #30
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Game development has at varies times been attempted in public - most notably probabaly by me. However it becomes far too difficult to manage becuase forusm threads quickly get out of control if fully public. I;d favour a system where people who are inteliigent can get together and discuss ideas in the context of an overall vision and strategy for Planetarion.
Create a forum here. Restrict posting to pa-team. Make it publically viewable. The inteliigent* people/profiles will dominate and steer the public part of the discussion anyways though.. as long as they get heads up about what's happening.

Do everything there except stuff there's a specific well-defined reason for keeping private.. such as (although I'd prefer this to be public too) multi-hunting.

I fail to see the problem.

* as opposed to PA-team
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 11:44   #31
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
Create a forum here. Restrict posting to pa-team. Make it publically viewable. The inteliigent* people/profiles will dominate and steer the public part of the discussion anyways though.. as long as they get heads up about what's happening.

Do everything there except stuff there's a specific well-defined reason for keeping private.. such as (although I'd prefer this to be public too) multi-hunting.

I fail to see the problem.

* as opposed to PA-team
Your once again making the mistake of thinking that the forums is the players. Half the people on the forums dont play the game and half the players dont use the forums because they are full of people who just flame newbs. Therefore using the forums as a consultation tool on the game, quite simply wont work to get a true reflection of what the players want.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 11:47   #32
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Re: [Private] Game development

you're once again making the mistake that the people who don't post (whilst there is a smallish % of people who still play with care and effort who don't) matter as much, realise that it is the people who do post that sell the game and are your foundation of a community*.


*money. right? that's all it's about right?
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 11:49   #33
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
you're once again making the mistake that the people who don't post (whilst there is a small % of people who still play with ccare and effort who don't) matter as much, realise that it is the people who do post that sell the game and are your foundation of a community*


*money. right? that's all it's about right?
what??? thats possibly one of the most rediculous things ive ever heard. There are a lot of players who are still paying customers who dont use the forums. They are no less valuable than the people who pay for the game and also post on these boards.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 11:52   #34
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef!
Your once again making the mistake of thinking that the forums is the players. Half the people on the forums dont play the game and half the players dont use the forums because they are full of people who just flame newbs. Therefore using the forums as a consultation tool on the game, quite simply wont work to get a true reflection of what the players want.
Gee. That's just a MORONIC comment. If you really feel for the game, if you really care for it, you would get an account here, and post your opinions on the development.

Stop defending the morons that doesnt really care if the game is going in this or that direction by saying that the people of this game isnt on this forum.

The forum is where the players come to VOICE their opinion... And dont you even try for a SECOND to try and tell us otherwise..

Most of the paying customers that doesnt voice their opinion doesnt do it because they dont HAVE an opinion about the development.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 11:55   #35
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Re: [Private] Game development

Alot of people don't even bother to post on this forum caus it's sooo hard being accepted as a new player/poster here.
I agree with chef that these forums are not an accurate way to see what the community wants caus only a small portion of the community is here + alot of people that have stopped playing a long time ago and who are just here for some random drible.
Even a little pink questionaire is more accurate then this forum caus then people will be forced to give out their own opinion, not one previously posted
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 11:55   #36
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Gee. That's just a MORONIC comment. If you really feel for the game, if you really care for it, you would get an account here, and post your opinions on the development.

Stop defending the morons that doesnt really care if the game is going in this or that direction by saying that the people of this game isnt on this forum.

The forum is where the players come to VOICE their opinion... And dont you even try for a SECOND to try and tell us otherwise..
Ok...

Lets look at the facts of the forum situation.

Newbie gets forum account and for example makes a post on alliance discussions.

Forum long time user with chip on shoulder (which there are plenty about) dislikes the newbies comment and flames him into the ground.

Newbie continues to experience this over and over again and decides not to use the forum anymore cos they are sick of getting flamed.

...dont be so blind kargool
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 11:56   #37
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Our opinion isn't important no, our decision is. The community is only one stake holder for Planetarion.

The stake holders are (off the top of my head).

The community
Current customers
Future customers
Planetarion staff
Jolt staff with direct Planetarion involvement
Jolt shareholders
People who have contact with current customers

PATeams's job is to balence and prioritise the needs of our stakeholders, as such while the community could come to a consensus on what it wants PATeam cannot be obliged to follow it.

Nice one.

Ok here goes.
#1 #2 and #3 in your list are WE the players.
#5 is just 1 person (Biffy)
#6 dont make me laugh, like the shareholders care about a game that makes this less, with some great ideas of #1 #2 and #3 they might make more money so they will like that.
#7 now this is a fun one, the ppl that are in contact weith #1 #2 and #3 will have happy customers if things happen that #1 #2 and #3 want so i think they will go with the flow too.

In my list that makes 5 of your 7 stakeholders going 1 way and 2 of the 7 the other way, I would know wich side would make more ppl happy.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 11:57   #38
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef!
Your once again making the mistake of thinking that the forums is the players. Half the people on the forums dont play the game and half the players dont use the forums because they are full of people who just flame newbs. Therefore using the forums as a consultation tool on the game, quite simply wont work to get a true reflection of what the players want.
You should realize that any player being able to comment on game ideas and features is already a big step forward compared to the current situation. And to say it won't work to get a reflection is bull, you will get a reflection, but it might not reflect the entire playerbase (or PaTeams own opinion?). Also, not playing doesn't nessecarily mean they have no clue about what the game needs, as there are plenty of active forum users who got fed up with the current game and might be waiting for the game to be enjoyable again (from their point of view).

If this is the actual standing point of PaTeam its no wonder you ppl are miles away from the 'community'. The idea that no insight at all must surely be better than a (perhaps) biased insight of the (active) forum users i simply cannot understand. And like Kargool said, if they (the non-forum users) really care how much trouble is it to sign up a forum account and post your comments on ideas.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:00   #39
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef!
Ok...

Lets look at the facts of the forum situation.

Newbie gets forum account and for example makes a post on alliance discussions.

Forum long time user with chip on shoulder (which there are plenty about) dislikes the newbies comment and flames him into the ground.

Newbie continues to experience this over and over again and decides not to use the forum anymore cos they are sick of getting flamed.

...dont be so blind kargool

Oh really?

I've seen alot of people come and go, and if they have been flamed it has been for general shittyness not because they are a new player.

I've seen alot of people who actually post here and have 1-50 posts and they keep coming back, and guess what, they keep posting!!! Also, what "attempts" are being made to reach theese lost souls of planetarion?

Let me guess, discussions in dark and muddy irc channels?
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:02   #40
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
You should realize that any player being able to comment on game ideas and features is already a big step forward compared to the current situation.
as people (kal) have already said there are currently threads on this forum which are discussing features for next round and there are things in the pipeline to make it easier for people to discuss new game play ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
Also, not playing doesn't nessecarily mean they have no clue about what the game needs, as there are plenty of active forum users who got fed up with the current game and might be waiting for the game to be enjoyable again (from their point of view).
While that might be true you also need to realise that from the perspective of jolt the paying customers are the important ones (not that im agreeing/disagreeing with that cos i cant).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
If this is the actual standing point of PaTeam its no wonder you ppl are miles away from the 'community'.
I think your wrong about that, some of the PA Team are very close the community and lets face it the PA Team is recruited from the community (in the long run).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
The idea that no insight at all must surely be better than a (perhaps) biased insight of the (active) forum users i simply cannot understand. And like Kargool said, if they (the non-forum users) really care how much trouble is it to sign up a forum account and post your comments on ideas.
Please read my last post.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:06   #41
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I've seen alot of people come and go, and if they have been flamed it has been for general shittyness not because they are a new player.
I never said they got flamed cos they were a new player i just said they got flamed but lets face it thats not exactly a warm and welcoming response for someone who has just joined now is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Also, what "attempts" are being made to reach theese lost souls of planetarion?
That i cant answer Kargool because i dont know, but maybe if everyone was made to feel welcome on the forums we would be getting the opinions of these "lost souls"
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:08   #42
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Re: [Private] Game development

yes there are threads, 2 threads, one about alliances, other about races, the latter which's best responses are going to be totally ignored in terms of any change anyway ...

some relevant quotes from irc with regards to 'customers';
11:40:59) <@jesterina> they don't think about top alliances
(11:41:08) <@jesterina> because they know that top alliances are only 10% of the players
(11:41:17) <@jesterina> and thinking about 10% of the players rather than 90% is bad economics!
(11:41:47) <@jesterina> they just don't get that those 10% matter more, because they're sellers
(11:41:55) <@jesterina> where as no one gives a shit about the remaining 90%
(11:42:23) <@jer> heh
(11:43:24) <@jesterina> Sid is a great example
(11:43:29) <@jesterina> if Sid plays, 25 more people play

anyway all this is pointless as in my current pm with Kal it's become quite clear where the pateam's priorities lie.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:08   #43
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef!
I never said they got flamed cos they were a new player i just said they got flamed but lets face it thats not exactly a warm and welcoming response for someone who has just joined now is it?


That i cant answer Kargool because i dont know, but maybe if everyone was made to feel welcome on the forums we would be getting the opinions of these "lost souls"
Can you please provide us some examples of people who have been flamed for being new on theese forums? Can you please show us that the ONLY reason was that they were new posters?
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:09   #44
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef!
Your once again making the mistake of thinking that the forums is the players. Half the people on the forums dont play the game and half the players dont use the forums because they are full of people who just flame newbs. Therefore using the forums as a consultation tool on the game, quite simply wont work to get a true reflection of what the players want.
No, this isn't about 'consulting', this is about transparency. If their discussions are public, they will get discussed on irc / politics-forum / here / whatever. Links will be spread etc. Location really doesn't matter. Availability does.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:11   #45
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Can you please provide us some examples of people who have been flamed for being new on theese forums? Can you please show us that the ONLY reason was that they were new posters?
Congratulations on taking that out of context i never said that people were being flamed because they were newbies I only stated that the forums were a newbie unfriendly place, what a newb gets flamed for is besides the point, the point is that these forums are rife with flaming (usually for little or no reason - lo robban ). You know as well as i do that the forums are not newbie friendly.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:13   #46
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace
Nice one.

Ok here goes.
#1 #2 and #3 in your list are WE the players.
#5 is just 1 person (Biffy)
#6 dont make me laugh, like the shareholders care about a game that makes this less, with some great ideas of #1 #2 and #3 they might make more money so they will like that.
#7 now this is a fun one, the ppl that are in contact weith #1 #2 and #3 will have happy customers if things happen that #1 #2 and #3 want so i think they will go with the flow too.

In my list that makes 5 of your 7 stakeholders going 1 way and 2 of the 7 the other way, I would know wich side would make more ppl happy.
#1,#2,#3 are most certinaly not the players - #2 is the players.
I separated them out for veyr good reasons. The community is made up of a lot of players, ex players and other people, its not simply the players. Some of #1 are #2 and may also be #3 but the community is by no means representative of #2.

#5 is biffy and also keef. biffy has the power to veto decisions etc, and as such he needs to be consulted on anything major etc. keef is needed if the changes require signifcant server configuration changes, so he is also important.

#6 they may not care directly, but if for example jolt was making a loss on PA, they wouldn't be keen on any actions that would loose them money. in essence #6 is the blocker to free rounds.

#7 actually you misunderstood, probabaly becuase I wasn;t clear. a #7 may for example be someone you live with - while us making the game more addictive so it please you may make you happy, it might not make your house mate happy.

Now obviously the priorities are quite clear in that some of theese stakeholders are less important than others.

I'd be tempted to priortise as follows:

#6, #2, #3, #1, #5, #4, #7

Actually I'll clarify:

The PA stakeholders are as follows:

#1 Jolt and Simtech owners
#2 current players
#3 future players
#5 Forums community
#5 irc community
#6 Jolt staff who are directly involved with PA
#7 Planetarion staff
#8 People who have conact with customers e.g. relatives and friends

Now clearly not all of theese groups need to be consulted on changes to the game, however their needs do need to be considered when planning changes - often the needs will conince e.g. jolt want's more money, current players want more players. But my point is it is wrong to only consider the voices from one of the two communities.
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Last edited by Kal; 13 Sep 2006 at 12:21.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:13   #47
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Re: [Private] Game development

Seeing as i seem to be the mod watching this and the other thread please can people learn to use you're when they mean "you are" and not your because its going to blind me if i have to read that mistake again. Kids these days .

Some parts of the forum are unfortunately more welcoming than others but as long as new people make constructive well thought out posts they will generally be accepted along with maybe a little protection from the mods.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:15   #48
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef!
as people (kal) have already said there are currently threads on this forum which are discussing features for next round and there are things in the pipeline to make it easier for people to discuss new game play ideas.
And how many of those have actually been initiated by a PaTeam member? Most threads are still started by players and eventually get some feedback from PaTeam never to hear about again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef!
While that might be true you also need to realise that from the perspective of jolt the paying customers are the important ones (not that im agreeing/disagreeing with that cos i cant).
I'm sure Jolt as a business would be far more interested in getting (alot) more customers than just satisfying the 1000-1500 paying players that are left. There are enough ways to make this game interesting enough to attract a wider range of players instead of the same old group we're stuck with atm (i.e. multi-level strategising etc). The current game setup is no match for the popular 3d games, while it can actually compete with them as long as there are enough levels of strategy possible to interest a wide variaty of players.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:15   #49
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef!
Congratulations on taking that out of context i never said that people were being flamed because they were newbies I only stated that the forums were a newbie unfriendly place, what a newb gets flamed for is besides the point, the point is that these forums are rife with flaming (usually for little or no reason - lo robban ). You know as well as i do that the forums are not newbie friendly.
Horray for boobies. So a newbie is a person who doesnt like discussions, who doesnt like that someone disagree with his opinions and not always voice them in a polite manner? I have to say you've redefined the newbie alot.

This game isnt newbie friendly either, because the pa team seems to be thinking that 99% of the players are either morons who cant think for themselves or people that needs to be protected from the rest of the community.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 12:18   #50
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Re: [Private] Game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
#1,#2,#3 are most certinaly not the players - #2 is the players.
I separated them out for veyr good reasons. The community is made up of a lot of players, ex players and other people, its not simply the players. Some of #1 are #2 and may also be #3 but the community is by no means representative of #2.

#5 is biffy and also keef. biffy has the power to veto decisions etc, and as such he needs to be consulted on anything major etc. keef is needed if the changes require signifcant server configuration changes, so he is also important.

#6 they may not care directly, but if for example jolt was making a loss on PA, they wouldn't be keen on any actions that would loose them money. in essence #6 is the blocker to free rounds.

#7 actually you misunderstood, probabaly becuase I wasn;t clear. a #7 may for example be someone you live with - while us making the game more addictive so it please you may make you happy, it might not make your house mate happy.

Now obviously the priorities are quite clear in that some of theese stakeholders are less important than others.

I'd be tempted to priortise as follows:

#6, #2, #3, #1, #5, #4, #7
#1 = #2 actually, ex players often play again and current players often quit, also #2 = #3 because what if the current memberbase stopped playing? then who do you have left/ and your priority surely should be to putting your customers first? not your moneyminded bosses as you're not getting paid are you?
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