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Unread 17 Mar 2014, 14:19   #1
Clouds
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Galaxy Exiles

-There is a limit of 2 galaxy exiles in any 200 tick period.

Although the approach is good, the method in my opinion is a bit extreme. Why? Because it will result in a lot of galaxies with deadweight, whether it's due to inactivity, trolling or just inadequate players.

Not every buddy-pack abuses the exile system, some merely just want a decent galaxy without deadweight planets.
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Unread 17 Mar 2014, 14:48   #2
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

Imo that modification should have come with an increase in buddy pack size to 4+1 at least or not include the planets that arrive on gal after shuffle in that count. It is too extreme the way it is and the luck factor is way more important than competence. At least that luck importance after shuffle should be diminished.
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Unread 17 Mar 2014, 15:25   #3
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

I worry that a lot of people are going to be stuck in really poor gals and go inactive before half the round has gone.

edit: The fact that galaxies are only 7-9 planets have made it impossible to fortress anyhow.
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Unread 17 Mar 2014, 15:41   #4
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

Someone will get stuck with nelito in gal HAHAhaha
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Unread 17 Mar 2014, 15:57   #5
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

If it doesn't work at all, then we will review the situation at the end of the round.
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Unread 17 Mar 2014, 18:12   #6
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
-There is a limit of 2 galaxy exiles in any 200 tick period..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
If it doesn't work at all, then we will review the situation at the end of the round.
One thing I would say to the PA team to watch for is "bullying"

I.E. forcing unwanted planets to self exile if not they get roided to the ground with no gal defence etc

The are certain Buddy packs that would go to these lengths
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Unread 17 Mar 2014, 18:15   #7
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
One thing I would say to the PA team to watch for is "bullying"

I.E. forcing unwanted planets to self exile if not they get roided to the ground with no gal defence etc

The are certain Buddy packs that would go to these lengths
That works both ways, the ones with not many roids to lose due to a less risky strategy may simply: "I exile myself, but I'd like the double needed for that"
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Unread 17 Mar 2014, 18:25   #8
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

I think that there should've been some leeway when implementing this extreme approach to the exile system; ie increase buddy-pack sizes.
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Unread 17 Mar 2014, 18:34   #9
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

Simplest fix:

No 'manual' self exiling.

Galaxies can exile as much as they want but the player cannot exile himself in the moment. What he can do if landing in a shit gal is set a 24 hr countdown to exile (like reset now).

This stops all the on-the-fly exiling and the 'lets do our exiling at 35 mins past the tick to avoid the dross'.

If there is no way you will remove exiling then this I believe is fairer than the current system.
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Unread 17 Mar 2014, 21:00   #10
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

I think its a step in the right directions, how ever i share mxy view that maybe the BPs couldve been bigger, or atleast have 3-4 exile each 200 tick.
Anyway, how this system will work is all down to the alliances playing.
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Unread 17 Mar 2014, 21:42   #11
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
This stops all the on-the-fly exiling and the 'lets do our exiling at 35 mins past the tick to avoid the dross'.
Another small feature that would make system better would be to perform exiles during the ticking so it would make controlled exiling less efficient.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 00:02   #12
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by fortran View Post
Another small feature that would make system better would be to perform exiles during the ticking so it would make controlled exiling less efficient.
i was unaware about any time stamp on exiles.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 00:40   #13
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
i was unaware about any time stamp on exiles.
???

Mxy is getting at what I'm saying about. Currently these 'super galaxies' control every element of exiling except what galaxy the exiler lands in, tho they can hedge there bets on this by have lots of ppl trying to exile in and keeping themselves in the 'goldilocks zone'.

What I am proposing and mxy is taking about is removing a few of these elements from their control whilst not damaging the intended purpose of exiling.

If PA was to change exiling so it only took place as the ticker ticked and not inbetween then all these people trying to exile to the super gal would be lumped with everyone else exiling. Currently these super galaxies like to perform there exiling in half through ticks so they avoid all the dross and heighten there chances of landing where they want.

For example if the SG (super galaxy) had 7 ppl in it at tick and was in the exile bracket along with 10 other galaxies then there isn't much chance of getting in. So the game ticks and everyone exiles ppl out, these start filling up the galaxies in the exile bracket ( basically everyone swaps the dross), maybe gets 1 but if not they are left as maybe 1 of 3 galaxies with a very high chance of getting an exiler. If you allow 25-30 mins for this to take place then the guy you want exiles from his gal he has vastly better odds of landing in the SG.

So we need to remove certain elements of exiling to stop this bending of the exiling mechanics. It is not cheating.

Removing manual self exiling would go a long way to this. If you setup self exile like reset or deletion is then you take away probably the biggest bend in system. Giving ppl 24 ticks hard coded between exiles would slow down movement a lot and would force some '1337' ppl to give the galaxy of decent players a try rather than making a beeline for there SG.

Making it so all exiling happens at the tick (regardless of when voted out of exile) makes all exiles equal. A simple ticker add of exile out/shuffle/exile in cannot be too hard to code.

Galaxies should always have the ability to exile out who they want but they should not be able to influence who they get in via the game mechanics.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 00:53   #14
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

Cheers for pointing that out Kaiba.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 01:19   #15
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Cheers for pointing that out Kaiba.
Sarcasm??
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 01:36   #16
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Sarcasm??
Not at all you made a good point that some folk might not be aware of.
(You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Kaiba again.)
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 09:48   #17
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

You guys whine about these players that loose loads of ticks and resources for trying to land in some specific galaxies? Better they quit the game aswell, i assume so our playerbase will further diminish.

The changes how i see it, does not in any fashion benefit new players.
Or will make them stay for any more reason they had before, but on the other hand it will make our current playerbase in dead weight galaxies give up at some point.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 11:05   #18
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
You guys whine about these players that loose loads of ticks and resources for trying to land in some specific galaxies? Better they quit the game aswell, i assume so our playerbase will further diminish.

The changes how i see it, does not in any fashion benefit new players.
Or will make them stay for any more reason they had before, but on the other hand it will make our current playerbase in dead weight galaxies give up at some point.
Firstly they are exiling around to arrive in a specific galaxy where they will recieve next to no incs and have donations waiting for them. They do not waste loads of ticks and resources when they can init 2k roids upon arriving in the galaxy and catch right back up.


Now to the more important point, why? Why would they quit? This always the same shit pedalled out by people like you to poo poo an idea.

Lets be honest here there is like 20 people who bend the exiling to create 'special galaxies'. If the game was changed so they couldnt do it anymore maybe at best 4 would quit. This is not a reason to not make the change.

In other threads people are calling for the removal of Havoc, again we have responses of how people 'only play for havoc' and wouldnt play at all if it was gone. Again this is like 10 people, most of them dont even buy credits. They are not a loss to the game.

Time and again people have ideas of how to improve the game and everytime someone cries 'loads of ppl would quit!', unless this is upwards of 100 people then it is a moot point, stop using it!
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 11:32   #19
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

What does this have to do with honesty? I know several more than 20 people doing this every round, but that is besides the point. Everyone could go to the same effort as they do. And yes it requires effort!

Funny that you also think that it's only players posting on forums about this, as most of them don't post on forums ever. I just don't see how this benefits anyone. (Except the whiners that don't want to put in effort.)

Reminds me of a B-Butch3r post on cov ops. He wants them removed, as he cba to cov op himself, or learn how to. (Not like it is hard at all.)

This change will make the brackets move dead weight planets between them, the elite galaxies will still appear as always. (Probably with even a lot higher difference than in the past rounds.) Why?

Because this will slim down luck factor for most others, not the few elitist that put their effort into it. And the exile system does in no fashion affect new players.

Another perspective: It's NOT ok for a new player to be stuck in a dead weight galaxy, but it is ok that these so called "elites" will be?
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 11:54   #20
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

From the viewpoint of someone fairly new(ish) I would only perceive this as being to more benefit to new players and potentially encourage growth of new players.

A bold claim though from the vantage point of a new person these "super galaxies" if your lucky enough to get into one, you promptly exiled out of it to make room for others. The increased difficulty in making such galaxies makes the game more accesable to the lower experienced players to play the game.

For people that would potentially cry off, they are not much of a loss to the environment, cause such individuals will only play when they know they can win and that type of mindset is never missed from any game i've played... life goes on without them.

If you wanted to make it insanely difficult to create these super galaxies then why not create a phone app? Yes I am aware you can play in your browser, since I play only using my phone and an android irc app.

Its more to do with publicity and advertising... on a browser people need to know where to look to find the game, whilst on the app market there are chances random people will see it and try out of curiosity. You can cheat as well you can pay people/compines to download your app x amount of times to shoot it up the leaderboards.

This would inturn increase the player base to a point making the exiling thing way more difficult to get into the "chosen" galaxy and the off shoot to appease the fort players, increase the bp size.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 12:14   #21
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
...
I don't see what you are complaining about. This topic is aiming to make suggestions to turn that super galaxies formation harder IN SPITE OF the current modification that not only kills them but ****s everyone in the process.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 12:24   #22
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by fortran View Post
I don't see what you are complaining about. This topic is aiming to make suggestions to turn that super galaxies formation harder IN SPITE OF the current modification that not only kills them but ****s everyone in the process.
The super galaxies like you call it will still appear, and i belive they will have A LOT more advantage than before. Topic might be for suggestions, but i can't really say i see any besides increase buddypacks. Which is totally irrelevant.

Appocomaster has been given several suggestions on the matter in the past, and this topic is old now. New thread maybe, but topic is old.

Kaiba might have the only suggestion that is relevant: Remove self-exiles entirely.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 13:24   #23
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
The super galaxies like you call it will still appear, and i belive they will have A LOT more advantage than before. Topic might be for suggestions, but i can't really say i see any besides increase buddypacks. Which is totally irrelevant.

Appocomaster has been given several suggestions on the matter in the past, and this topic is old now. New thread maybe, but topic is old.

Kaiba might have the only suggestion that is relevant: Remove self-exiles entirely.
The actual change that PA team has made is utter crap, stopping galaxies from shifting out of the dead planets will cause lots of people to give up earlier in the round than usual. What they have done is attack them problem at the wrong end. I dont beleive had an issue with galaxies exiling planets, tbh every planet you exile makes you weaker in that moment. The issue as i have said twice now in this thread lies at the planets ability to control WHEN he exiles in. Remove this option and hardcode exiling alongside Reset/Deletion and make it all something that happens at tick (a player can be voted out of the galaxy at any point in the hour but he wont leave until the tick) and really all the problems with exiling are removed.

Planets can still move out of crap galaxies, it is just given a bigger cooling down period (you are moving a planet ffs that takes a lot of power ) , galaxies can still exile dead planets/people they dont want and FINALLY the exiling system is fair by everyone being in the same boat and certain people not being able to shorten the odds.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 13:38   #24
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Simplest fix:

No 'manual' self exiling.

Galaxies can exile as much as they want but the player cannot exile himself in the moment. What he can do if landing in a shit gal is set a 24 hr countdown to exile (like reset now).

This stops all the on-the-fly exiling and the 'lets do our exiling at 35 mins past the tick to avoid the dross'.

If there is no way you will remove exiling then this I believe is fairer than the current system.
Lol Kai. Your post was so far off that I had to sign up to the forums to put you right. Exiling in to a super gal has nothing to do with timing. It is luck, pure and simple. Having tried said tactic myself, I can vouch for this The only 'abuse' of the exiling system super gals exploit, is exiling out in actives/douches whenever possible. Nelito paid for the exile that got me into my target gal a few rounds back...maybe that is the secret

Seriously though, It isn't voodoo magic people. Some super gals have people who try to exile in 20 times and fail. Should have kept the status quo this time Appocco
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 13:48   #25
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Lol Kai. Your post was so far off that I had to sign up to the forums to put you right. Exiling in to a super gal has nothing to do with timing. It is luck, pure and simple. Having tried said tactic myself, I can vouch for this The only 'abuse' of the exiling system super gals exploit, is exiling out in actives/douches whenever possible. Nelito paid for the exile that got me into my target gal a few rounds back...maybe that is the secret
Lol. I love how you do it once and suddenly you are an expert. Bear in mind that Armas gal decided on the 'lot of ppl' tactic to create their galaxy. Take a look at the other gal (Shaz's one) and its the same 10 people every round. They use the 30 min tactic. Both are successful in achieving the goal and both would be stopped or atleast stunted and unfavourable with my suggestion for fixing exiles. Lets also not forget that you in that round exiled into my galaxy before getting to Armas. We had a decent BP and good randoms and still you exiled through, because you could keep exiling every 3 ticks and eventually get to Armas. Now what i honestly ask you is if you had wait 24 ticks per exile (8 times slower) would you have exiled through or would you have stayed. I am asking from a practical point of veiw, not a personal bitchy one.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 14:14   #26
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

I would have exiled. The chance to be in a gal with 8 other like minded people is too good to pass up.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 15:07   #27
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
Kaiba might have the only suggestion that is relevant: Remove self-exiles entirely.
Erm, why? This is a very bad idea because if a player is subject to abuse, or they reside in a dead galaxy, then they are stuck in that galaxy.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 15:22   #28
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

I did not say it was good or bad, i said it was the only relevant suggestion.
And beyond that, kaiba is saying in his last posts some of the points i've tried to explain.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 16:21   #29
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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I did not say it was good or bad, i said it was the only relevant suggestion.
And beyond that, kaiba is saying in his last posts some of the points i've tried to explain.
Sorry I think you may have misread what I said. People should be able to self exile but with a larger cool down period. Exiles should happen at tick, they shouldn't be 'live' actions.

A planet should still have the ability to get out of a crap galaxy but they shouldn't be able to manipulate the odds of where they go.

It's really that simple a change with what I can see as no downsides for 99% of the playerbase.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 17:16   #30
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

ok so i dont think this is a terrible thing and keeping the bp size down is good for leveling the playing field, there will still be people exiling though to aim for gals. but now with the 1/3 auto trigger and exile price increase there could be some gals that end up having 3-4 planets. maybe the 'galaxy disban' option should come back if something like this happens?
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 02:16   #31
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

why is everyone against the best players winning?
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 05:11   #32
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
why is everyone against the best players winning?
"The best players" lollol
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 06:07   #33
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
why is everyone against the best players winning?
"Best" is a meaningless term. Yes, some people have repeatedly won the game, given certain constraints, ie, the game mechanics. But those game mechanics may as well be arbitrary, in this context. So if they change, as they're doing now, maybe other people start performing better. Why are the current "best players" more important than those that would do best under different constraints? Why should we continue tailoring the game towards their strengths, and not other people's? (And those are not rhetoric questions.)
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 07:37   #34
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

i think we need to look at it the other way, and make it easier to construct as kaiba coined it "super gals".
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 10:25   #35
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

I predict that there will be much more buddy-packs resulting in smaller galaxies; around 4-6 per galaxy. Exiling will be much more difficult and players will be forced to join buddy-packs.

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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 10:38   #36
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

The whole idea of a bp in a gal with randoms is to help the randoms not get crappy gals. Give them a chance to improve. And give the bp an incentive to help the randoms.
Going around the bp system to get more than the bp limit in your gal should be discouraged or made impossible.

Or simply remove the bp system and make private and random gals.
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 10:39   #37
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

To address a couple of comments in this thread:

so far, there is no indication that there will be more buddy packs (or fewer planets per galaxy after shuffle) than last round. I will be monitoring this, though.


@Blue_Esper, why should we make it easier to construct "super galaxies"?

It's difficult to justify one way or another but the issue, as far as I can see, is:

if we have a system which basically allows for private galaxies, many of the "best" players will clump together and win, and the newer planets and some of the less active planets will be more likely to be together and suffer further. They'll also have less exposure to the "best" planets and the top alliances, and so be less likely to join those (and therefore stay with Planetarion).
If the galaxies are a bit more mixed, the activity is mixed a bit more, and the game is more competitive, and the more fringe players are less likely to take a beating every night.

Of course, this may upset some of the more active players who just want to spend time playing with friends, or not at all.

This is the path we have to walk.
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 11:00   #38
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
The whole idea of a bp in a gal with randoms is to help the randoms not get crappy gals. Give them a chance to improve. And give the bp an incentive to help the randoms.
Going around the bp system to get more than the bp limit in your gal should be discouraged or made impossible.
I am not opposed to this idea, but they've made it so that the galaxy cannot exile planets and they are subject to trolling.
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 11:18   #39
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
To address a couple of comments in this thread:

so far, there is no indication that there will be more buddy packs (or fewer planets per galaxy after shuffle) than last round. I will be monitoring this, though.


@Blue_Esper, why should we make it easier to construct "super galaxies"?

It's difficult to justify one way or another but the issue, as far as I can see, is:

if we have a system which basically allows for private galaxies, many of the "best" players will clump together and win, and the newer planets and some of the less active planets will be more likely to be together and suffer further. They'll also have less exposure to the "best" planets and the top alliances, and so be less likely to join those (and therefore stay with Planetarion).
If the galaxies are a bit more mixed, the activity is mixed a bit more, and the game is more competitive, and the more fringe players are less likely to take a beating every night.

Of course, this may upset some of the more active players who just want to spend time playing with friends, or not at all.

This is the path we have to walk.
my reason for easier is so that it gives people who aren't as well organised a chance to make a super gal, yes that may mean there are MORE supergals but that also means more competition right. There's no substitute for getting up in the middle of the night to send def in an alliance, if you're prepared to be on at peak times you can play in any top alliance. Ultores took 5-6 new players last round because they were prepared to do what it takes to be a part of an active alliance, they're now being rewarded as people want to BP them for their activity, not their ability. i dont exile people who show that they are willing to improve, but if they only log in once a day n dont send out fleets and participate when the time comes, i can't justify keeping them because it impacts on everyone else in the gal if we were to have what i would consider a useless planet.

an alternative solution is to limit the number of exiles that can be made. cap it at like 5-10 exiles per round so one can clean out all the junk whenever the time comes.
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 11:27   #40
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
I am not opposed to this idea, but they've made it so that the galaxy cannot exile planets and they are subject to trolling.
As opposed to before, when they got roided to shit and then exiled anyway.
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 12:05   #41
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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As opposed to before, when they got roided to shit and then exiled anyway.
I think that the cap is a good idea, but 2 galaxy exiles per 200 ticks is quite extreme..
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 12:47   #42
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

Yeah it's pretty crazy. Assuming most gals will be exiling around the same time, you pretty much have to wait 200 ticks between each exile, and thus risk spending 200 ticks in an abysmal gal.
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 12:58   #43
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
why is everyone against the best players winning?
Not as if it is Impossible to Galwin without Noobs in it
See R42 gal win for a point of reference.

I want you to read this thread...
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=199820
Then understand how it is Detrimental to PA

It = the current exiling culture for Noobs that exists in PA
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 13:58   #44
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

I'm sorry but if my gal is only 7 or 8 players big, it simply doesn't have room for a small planet for me to "teach". The smaller the gal, the more crucial that every planet in it has high value and can contribute.
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 15:11   #45
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I'm sorry but if my gal is only 7 or 8 players big, it simply doesn't have room for a small planet for me to "teach". The smaller the gal, the more crucial that every planet in it has high value and can contribute.
Its a paradox aint it?
Over the past rounds we have gone from defence report channels to self reporting incs, 100 man tags to 60 man tags.
You can play fine enough without only dedicated and skilled players ingal.
We need bigger tags.
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 15:20   #46
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I'm sorry but if my gal is only 7 or 8 players big, it simply doesn't have room for a small planet for me to "teach". The smaller the gal, the more crucial that every planet in it has high value and can contribute.
Sadly, it's this attitude which means noobs don't stick around.
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 15:24   #47
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Its a paradox aint it?
Over the past rounds we have gone from defence report channels to self reporting incs, 100 man tags to 60 man tags.
You can play fine enough without only dedicated and skilled players ingal.
We need bigger tags.
Sorry but it's not a paradox. Galaxies and alliances are different things. Galaxies need every hand to the pumps under incs from normally something that is 6-8 times bigger. This never ever happens to alliances. 8 vs 60 is a lot worse than 60 vs 120.

As Faveless showed you can win Pa with plenty of spare slots so there is plenty of room for n00bs. In galaxies that want to chalkenge for the win there isn't.
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 15:25   #48
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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We need bigger tags.
Bigger tags with 5-8 man galaxies. Yeah, that seems pretty logicial.
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 15:44   #49
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
Bigger tags with 5-8 man galaxies. Yeah, that seems pretty logicial.
Isildurx said he couldnt keep newbies in his gal with the size of 7-8 planets.
Therefor bigger tags, and bigger gals would be better?
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Unread 20 Mar 2014, 15:47   #50
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Re: Galaxy Exiles

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Sorry but it's not a paradox. Galaxies and alliances are different things. Galaxies need every hand to the pumps under incs from normally something that is 6-8 times bigger. This never ever happens to alliances. 8 vs 60 is a lot worse than 60 vs 120.

As Faveless showed you can win Pa with plenty of spare slots so there is plenty of room for n00bs. In galaxies that want to chalkenge for the win there isn't.
Most 60 man tags hit 3 gals each night?
So its more like 8 vs 15-18 planets.
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