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View Poll Results: Which set would you choose?
Pat's set (http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats) 19 35.85%
Alternative set (http://speedgame.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats) 22 41.51%
I do not care 12 22.64%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 6 Mar 2016, 13:50   #1
Jintao
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R66 Stat opinions

There seems to be some concern that the new changes to alliance defence and Pat's "defensive" set will make it impossible to land anything.

PS: Personally i don't think it's as defensive as certain people claim.

So i wanted to float the idea for an alternative set. Based on the short timespan left and the fact it had to be offensive i went with a simple ST design.

Pat's set: http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats
Alternative set: http://speedgame.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats

PS Neither set is final and the alternative set has just raw base values

Which set has your preference and why?

PS The poll is just informational to get a quick read on people's opinions without having to datamine the whole topic and figuring out who already posted and who not. The poll will not descide which set is run.

Last edited by Jintao; 6 Mar 2016 at 14:01.
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Unread 6 Mar 2016, 14:41   #2
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Slightly strange as this is not just a defensive vs attack question its now become a st vs mt also :|
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Unread 6 Mar 2016, 14:50   #3
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Who is the alternative set by? Or is it a modification on an old set? (Taking a quick look through it does not look exactly like any of them).
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Unread 6 Mar 2016, 14:58   #4
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Who is the alternative set by? Or is it a modification on an old set? (Taking a quick look through it does not look exactly like any of them).
The who shouldn't matter, but it's a new set based on a rough concept of the early day ST sets.
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Unread 6 Mar 2016, 15:01   #5
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
Slightly strange as this is not just a defensive vs attack question its now become a st vs mt also :|
Correct, but time is running out and nobody pm'ed me any MT sets which are balanced and ready to go. So if people don't like Pat's set this is the only alternative i can offer at this time.

Also ST is a possible counter to limit the effectiveness of the new defence feature in the first round it's implemented. It ensures it won't be too strong or too defensive.
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Unread 6 Mar 2016, 15:11   #6
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Tells you who to complain to if you don't like it! Having an anonymous set without allowing any discussion of the pros and cons of that set would be a very retrograde step in terms of player involvement.

And there really should be an 'I don't like either' option since I don't like pat's set and hate ST (not yet had time to decide if this is actually a good ST set or not). I do not care would be way to mild a reaction.
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Unread 6 Mar 2016, 15:17   #7
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Isn't it odd that FI and CO in Pat's set are at most average. Does anyone expect them to be picked as strats?
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Unread 6 Mar 2016, 15:51   #8
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Jintao made the alternative set.
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Unread 6 Mar 2016, 17:20   #9
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

I prefer the alt set
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Unread 6 Mar 2016, 18:02   #10
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
Correct, but time is running out and nobody pm'ed me any MT sets which are balanced and ready to go. So if people don't like Pat's set this is the only alternative i can offer at this time.

Also ST is a possible counter to limit the effectiveness of the new defence feature in the first round it's implemented. It ensures it won't be too strong or too defensive.
Did you feel papadocs stats were too far off to be even considered?

I like going with ST first round of this new feature. Forces alliances to strategize specifically what ship they want to have set aside as it will be less versatile.
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Unread 6 Mar 2016, 18:07   #11
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Having an anonymous set without allowing any discussion of the pros and cons of that set would be a very retrograde step in terms of player involvement.
I think you missed this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
Which set has your preference and why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
And there really should be an 'I don't like either' option since I don't like pat's set and hate ST (not yet had time to decide if this is actually a good ST set or not). I do not care would be way to mild a reaction.
And this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
Correct, but time is running out and nobody pm'ed me any MT sets which are balanced and ready to go. So if people don't like Pat's set this is the only alternative i can offer at this time.
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Unread 6 Mar 2016, 18:23   #12
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperSix View Post
Did you feel papadocs stats were too far off to be even considered?

I like going with ST first round of this new feature. Forces alliances to strategize specifically what ship they want to have set aside as it will be less versatile.
Papadoc had a decent base but it needed some work. He's playing around with it on the xmas server, but i haven't heared back from him. So i left it out since i have no clue where it is at right now and we are running out of time.

And yes it's why i suggested an ST set as alternative. I think it will work better with this alliance defence change than an MT or a mixed ST/MT set.
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Unread 6 Mar 2016, 18:25   #13
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperSix View Post

I like going with ST first round of this new feature. Forces alliances to strategize specifically what ship they want to have set aside as it will be less versatile.
Seconded
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 00:08   #14
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperSix View Post
I like going with ST first round of this new feature. Forces alliances to strategize specifically what ship they want to have set aside as it will be less versatile.
I would tend to agree, except that these alt stats are too rough to make a good assessment. Perhaps if initiatives and efficiencies were done the real comparison could begin.
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 06:57   #15
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

I find it mad that people would vote for a set that's 30% finished at best over a set that is 90% done and not bad at all.

It feels like people are now voting to weaken a new feature and make pointless, it's an awful feature but this alternative set will make its pro's almost redundant.

On a side note docs set is poor, the xan are way too powerful in it and we don't need another cloaked fi round, a lot of work needs doing to it and seeing as he has been working on it for a long time I don't think they will ever be playable.


When everyone here is bemoaning the defensive nature of the stats and ults ability to defend better than the rest picking a set where the defence is harder to achieve will just widen the gap :/
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 09:43   #16
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I find it mad that people would vote for a set that's 30% finished at best over a set that is 90% done and not bad at all.
Well there is to blame the people putting up a set that is only 30% finished, dont you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
It feels like people are now voting to weaken a new feature and make pointless, it's an awful feature but this alternative set will make its pro's almost redundant.
Well i can't speak for "people", but my personal intention voting the ST set is that i only enjoy PA when i am able to land attacks. And before i get quoted wrong, no it isnt about landing every night (though that ofc would be nice), but more about the general ability to land attacks.
Now with some value, that i naturally accomplish (at least the first 500 ticks) you obviously have to hit bigger planets. And any set that favours forting or 1 fleet covers too much makes landing harder then it should be for my likes.
Yes there will always be some planets that you only roid with fakes or when putting on super heavy pressure, but we should try to not make beeing a powerhouse too easy, imho.
For the feature - i can't tell how it will work out - but i am willing to give it a shot. Cause change is what this game needs.
But yes i am concerned that a too defensive set plus the new feature will kill my personal motivation to play (and maybe those of others 2) - so this was the final reason for me to vote an unfinished ST set over the proposed 90% finished MT set.
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 09:56   #17
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
When everyone here is bemoaning the defensive nature of the stats and ults ability to defend better than the rest picking a set where the defence is harder to achieve will just widen the gap :/
It's literally pathetic that you bring them into every argument. Remove nose from ass please because at no point has anyone brought them into this discussion.
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 10:03   #18
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

I voted for ST because looking at Pat's set i liked it less. Bear in mind i did not have time to overlook the ST values yet, just init and targeting.

Oh and on a sidenote, i saw a flash of yet different set on xmas server earlier, whos stats were those and can i have another look somewhere?
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 10:39   #19
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larppa View Post
I voted for ST because looking at Pat's set i liked it less. Bear in mind i did not have time to overlook the ST values yet, just init and targeting.

Oh and on a sidenote, i saw a flash of yet different set on xmas server earlier, whos stats were those and can i have another look somewhere?
The xmas server is papadocs stats. There is some issues with etd that's known about. Think targeting is close to finished, but effs haven't been worked on
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 11:31   #20
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Ok now that i checked xmas its absolutely my favourite, please include him in the poll i'd vote for his. tbh looking at early votes we could scrap Pat's set right away and see if Papadoc can come up with competitor to the current alternative.
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 11:52   #21
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pit View Post
I think you missed this:
Perhaps you should not assume what others have missed. A quick look at the thread shows that it has not been a discussion working out the failings of the alternate stats set and proposing improvements. Ideally there would be a separate thread rather than discussion in this one anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pit View Post
And this:
At the time I was aware of papas set and it had not been explained why it was not here. Even without that being the case as I explained to jintao a 'neither' option would have been preferable to one which is essentially an oxymoron; voting implies some level of caring. It would be wrong to state that I don't care, but at the same time I am not going to vote for either option.

Kaiba; what makes you say the alternate ST set is only 30% done?
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 12:25   #22
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post

Kaiba; what makes you say the alternate ST set is only 30% done?
The targeting is a bit hit and miss, the ints don't add up right, the effs aren't done, the costs are out of sync.

Even if you ignore the eff and cost as a ST set they are very basic, which is as boring as a well groomed MT set
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 13:23   #23
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

I had presumed the effs, particularly the high emp ones to be down to ST. I have to admit I don't remember the effs of previous fully St stats to compare.

What is wrong with the targeting? It looks like it is done with the intention of creating a straightjacket allowing almost no option which I don't like but I presume it is intentional rather than a reflection of an unfinished set. Initiatives I kind of agree, quite a lot of ships with the same initiatives, though mostly not firing at each other. Given jintao's changes to last round to ensure that nothing fires at the same time I find it hard to believe that this is not intentional though.
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 13:29   #24
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

I voted for 'alternative set', whichever is presented.
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 14:06   #25
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

To clarify the readyness of the alternative set:

The ship classes, targetting, init and type are all final.
Most ac/dc values are within the margin where they should be. ~75% done.
EMP is mostly set to be 190-220%. In the old days i see it even went over 300%, but i thought that to be a bit too extreme compared to what we are used to. But these still need to be verified and balanced.

The readyness of Pat's set:
The ship classes, targetting, init and type are all final.
AC/DC is 97% done. Just needs to be verified one last time.
EMP is roughly set where it should be, but still need to be verified and balanced.

Overall Pat's set is a few hours ahead of the alternative set. But the alternative set has a much simpler design making balancing alot easier.

Hope this anwsers the questions regarding readyness of both sets. It should also show that the readyness should not be a factor. Feel free to challange the contents of both sets and help find bugs in them!
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 15:07   #26
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Generally speaking, 200ish % emp eff seems fairly reasonable for ST.
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 20:10   #27
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

What people don't understand is that if you have stats that are defensive in nature vs offensive in nature is that Ult will still have the same def culture. They will be able to defend roughly the same regardless of stats because the problem isnt their build order or ships its the culture. The type of stats really only affects the other alliances, one of the big advantages that Ult has is they hold value long enough to be able to strike back really hard and well. Defensive stats only help the weaker alliances get good coverage VS ult and others. Offensive stats will only make ult that much strong because they still will have 80-90% coverage.
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 20:21   #28
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Wondering if Tia & Kaiba are the same person.
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 20:24   #29
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

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Wondering if Tia & Kaiba are the same person.
lol
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 20:27   #30
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
What people don't understand is that if you have stats that are defensive in nature vs offensive in nature is that Ult will still have the same def culture. They will be able to defend roughly the same regardless of stats because the problem isnt their build order or ships its the culture. The type of stats really only affects the other alliances, one of the big advantages that Ult has is they hold value long enough to be able to strike back really hard and well. Defensive stats only help the weaker alliances get good coverage VS ult and others. Offensive stats will only make ult that much strong because they still will have 80-90% coverage.
The culture will remain the same, but if the available means of defense are reduced, their defense will worsen as much as everyone else's. What offensive stats do is reduce the number of incomings any alliance can cover. That goes as much for Ultores as it does for Howling Rain. The difference between those 2 alliances is not the number of incomings they can cover with the fleets they could theoretically have available if everyone was 100% active, but the number of fleets per member they actually end up sending.

Offensive or defensive stats neither help nor harm Ultores. The relative ability of the alliances to defend remains roughly the same, even if their absolute ability is reduced.
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Unread 7 Mar 2016, 22:34   #31
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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
What people don't understand is that if you have stats that are defensive in nature vs offensive in nature is that Ult will still have the same def culture. They will be able to defend roughly the same regardless of stats because the problem isnt their build order or ships its the culture. The type of stats really only affects the other alliances, one of the big advantages that Ult has is they hold value long enough to be able to strike back really hard and well. Defensive stats only help the weaker alliances get good coverage VS ult and others. Offensive stats will only make ult that much strong because they still will have 80-90% coverage.
Can you please promise to never make stats again.
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Unread 8 Mar 2016, 07:01   #32
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
The culture will remain the same, but if the available means of defense are reduced, their defense will worsen as much as everyone else's. What offensive stats do is reduce the number of incomings any alliance can cover. That goes as much for Ultores as it does for Howling Rain. The difference between those 2 alliances is not the number of incomings they can cover with the fleets they could theoretically have available if everyone was 100% active, but the number of fleets per member they actually end up sending.

Offensive or defensive stats neither help nor harm Ultores. The relative ability of the alliances to defend remains roughly the same, even if their absolute ability is reduced.
I kind of see what you are saying but I think Tia's point is valid.

Last rounds stats were slightly defensive and yet no other alliance was able to generate effective defence to counter incommings. Now people are calling for stats that reduce that ability to defend even further.

The glaring problem with ST stats is that unless you want glaring holes in your fleet you need to build 5+ different ships. When most alliances normally operate on a 65/35 att/def split this means you end up with at best 25% of 1 ship and 10-15% of another. There is a chance that one of these ships will be for self coverage and not meet alliance eta and be redundant for alliance defence. As last rounds stats show us Ultores is far superior to others when it comes to galaxy defence meaning these redundant ships will still be used by them effectively unlike other alliances.

All ST sets do is weaken the defpool available, even more so than they allow for more lands offensively. When you have 1 alliance that can get a 90% def turnout every night against a bunch of alliances that get 40% at best this gap of ability to hold roids and gain value just widens and widens.

The Inc stats show that ult still managed to be in the top 2 hostiles to 3 competing alliances last round, still able to roid them to a comparable level to how they were getting roided even with 120+ incs every night for the 2ND half of the round. This means they recover roids/hold roids and build value at a higher rate than others and now you are all asking for an environment that increases their ability to do this compared to their competitors.

I genuinely refuse to believe that anyone also enjoys playing in an environment where you cannot hold your roids under the smallest amount of adversity, it's just not fun to have a smaller fleet, less roids and watch all your gains from landing wiped out every time you get above a certain threshold. Yet again this is the environment you are asking for....
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Unread 8 Mar 2016, 07:36   #33
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I kind of see what you are saying but I think Tia's point is valid.

Last rounds stats were slightly defensive and yet no other alliance was able to generate effective defence to counter incommings. Now people are calling for stats that reduce that ability to defend even further.

The glaring problem with ST stats is that unless you want glaring holes in your fleet you need to build 5+ different ships. When most alliances normally operate on a 65/35 att/def split this means you end up with at best 25% of 1 ship and 10-15% of another. There is a chance that one of these ships will be for self coverage and not meet alliance eta and be redundant for alliance defence. As last rounds stats show us Ultores is far superior to others when it comes to galaxy defence meaning these redundant ships will still be used by them effectively unlike other alliances.

All ST sets do is weaken the defpool available, even more so than they allow for more lands offensively. When you have 1 alliance that can get a 90% def turnout every night against a bunch of alliances that get 40% at best this gap of ability to hold roids and gain value just widens and widens.

The Inc stats show that ult still managed to be in the top 2 hostiles to 3 competing alliances last round, still able to roid them to a comparable level to how they were getting roided even with 120+ incs every night for the 2ND half of the round. This means they recover roids/hold roids and build value at a higher rate than others and now you are all asking for an environment that increases their ability to do this compared to their competitors.

I genuinely refuse to believe that anyone also enjoys playing in an environment where you cannot hold your roids under the smallest amount of adversity, it's just not fun to have a smaller fleet, less roids and watch all your gains from landing wiped out every time you get above a certain threshold. Yet again this is the environment you are asking for....
Again, as you keep on going about Ultores. I dont think the majority on these forums (it isnt actually many, that even voted on the poll) is seeking a set of stats where they have the best chance in beeting ult!

It is more about enjoying the key aspect of the game, which is landing succesful attacks, be it for the glory in roiding a powerhouse, the xp involved or the free roids.

The standard casual player in a mediocre alliance will be roided anyhow, no matter if the set is defensive or not. As he will simply not always get the defensive support due to several possible reasons. Be it himself failing to spot a fake, no defence been sent from ally/gal or whatever ****up/disability. It doesnt matter how many holes his fleet setup has.
Personally i dont even think that the described casual dude is bothering with roid loss too much (hes used to it anyhow), as long as hes able to succesfully land his fleet on someone else.

Now if we use a overly defensive set the only ones benefiting are the 100 planets, that dc themselves, get the alliance and ingal support and spot the fakes coming at them.
The key-factor here is reducing incoming-waves before they even launched - which is usually achieved by forcing your opponent to use many fleets each wave. So lets say Alliance A is sending 49 att fleets on 1 gal consisting of 7 hostile planets: Thats either 7 waves each planet (1 fleet attack) in a very attack oriented setup, where every planet has their holes in fleetsetup, or 2 waves each planet if you have to use 3 or 4 attack-fleets each wave.
So what's easier to cover ? 7 waves on your planet, or 2?
Even if those 7 waves can be covered by just 1 fleet each, its 7 fleets your opponent has to use...

Finally, why is it so hard to bring down ult, asc, apprime or whoever was the top shots at their times?
Usually those alliances should crumble soon when beeing steadily hit with about 100 fleets at night. The issue is that the most alliances around wont uphold the pressure of sending this constant amount of incs as quite many ppl around loose the interest in attacking someone that is getting covered night after night.
So the amount of fleets beeing sent is dropping fast, all you have to do is 2-3 nights of hard effort in covering everything. Soon alliances will have to add some unallied planets to their raids to keep motivation up and the number of fleets beeing sent at the #1 is dropping even further.

Why am i going on about this?
Because in my opinion having the casual and mediocre player beeing able to land (even on bigger alliances) is what keep this game alive. Nothing else.
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Unread 8 Mar 2016, 08:02   #34
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
Again, as you keep on going about Ultores. I dont think the majority on these forums (it isnt actually many, that even voted on the poll) is seeking a set of stats where they have the best chance in beeting ult!

It is more about enjoying the key aspect of the game, which is landing succesful attacks, be it for the glory in roiding a powerhouse, the xp involved or the free roids.

The standard casual player in a mediocre alliance will be roided anyhow, no matter if the set is defensive or not. As he will simply not always get the defensive support due to several possible reasons. Be it himself failing to spot a fake, no defence been sent from ally/gal or whatever ****up/disability. It doesnt matter how many holes his fleet setup has.
Personally i dont even think that the described casual dude is bothering with roid loss too much (hes used to it anyhow), as long as hes able to succesfully land his fleet on someone else.

Now if we use a overly defensive set the only ones benefiting are the 100 planets, that dc themselves, get the alliance and ingal support and spot the fakes coming at them.
The key-factor here is reducing incoming-waves before they even launched - which is usually achieved by forcing your opponent to use many fleets each wave. So lets say Alliance A is sending 49 att fleets on 1 gal consisting of 7 hostile planets: Thats either 7 waves each planet (1 fleet attack) in a very attack oriented setup, where every planet has their holes in fleetsetup, or 2 waves each planet if you have to use 3 or 4 attack-fleets each wave.
So what's easier to cover ? 7 waves on your planet, or 2?
Even if those 7 waves can be covered by just 1 fleet each, its 7 fleets your opponent has to use...

Finally, why is it so hard to bring down ult, asc, apprime or whoever was the top shots at their times?
Usually those alliances should crumble soon when beeing steadily hit with about 100 fleets at night. The issue is that the most alliances around wont uphold the pressure of sending this constant amount of incs as quite many ppl around loose the interest in attacking someone that is getting covered night after night.
So the amount of fleets beeing sent is dropping fast, all you have to do is 2-3 nights of hard effort in covering everything. Soon alliances will have to add some unallied planets to their raids to keep motivation up and the number of fleets beeing sent at the #1 is dropping even further.

Why am i going on about this?
Because in my opinion having the casual and mediocre player beeing able to land (even on bigger alliances) is what keep this game alive. Nothing else.
You are wrong to presume that everyone only finds enjoyment in attacking. There are plenty of people who enjoy the defensive side more than the attacking (see Recluse as an example). Alliance defence, dcing, ingal defence is actually a far more interactive and social experience than attacking. In any alliance you can attack every night and never talk to anyone, never interact with your team. On defence you have to communicate, coordinate and work as a unit. Effective defence is about being a cog in a greater machine. Getting your member to actively communicate in defensive coordination would do more to make them stick at playing than just chucking up a galaxy for them to randomly attack every night.

I personally say that I barely remember the best attacks I landed, but nights where we covered large incs or where the team pulled together to repel an aggressor are still in my mind (in a gal with dybi normally). I'm sure many people here can agree that that guy turning up at 5 mins to tick with 3 fleets of defence which covers those last 3 incs creates a bigger team thrill than when 5 of you land the 3rd wave on a t10.


I would even hazard a guess that the lack of team spirit garnered through poor defensive displays from alliances like CT, p3n does more damage to their ability to win tight rounds than anything else.

Any mug can gain roids, as carDi has shown you can even just init them and rank well. It's defence that is where the real game is and you guys want to hamper it
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Unread 8 Mar 2016, 08:25   #35
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
You are wrong to presume that everyone only finds enjoyment in attacking. There are plenty of people who enjoy the defensive side more than the attacking (see Recluse as an example). Alliance defence, dcing, ingal defence is actually a far more interactive and social experience than attacking. In any alliance you can attack every night and never talk to anyone, never interact with your team. On defence you have to communicate, coordinate and work as a unit. Effective defence is about being a cog in a greater machine. Getting your member to actively communicate in defensive coordination would do more to make them stick at playing than just chucking up a galaxy for them to randomly attack every night.

I personally say that I barely remember the best attacks I landed, but nights where we covered large incs or where the team pulled together to repel an aggressor are still in my mind (in a gal with dybi normally). I would even hazard a guess that the lack of team spirit garnered through poor defensive displays from alliances like CT, p3n does more damage to their ability to win tight rounds than anything else.

Any mug can gain roids, as carDi has shown you can even just init them and rank well. It's defence that is where the real game is and you guys want to hamper it
I dont overly disagree with you here. Yes Defence is where the real game is and only if you manage that part you can win.
But the universe is (sadly only) consisting of 700 planets, out of which only 1 will actually win and another 29 to make the superb top30. What about the other 670 players (i assume every planet is 1 player )

Don't you think it should be about what keeps them playing ?

And thats where i disagree with you, i dont think the majority of those guys enjoy the defensive aspect over the offensive. Though some for sure do.
Also in an offensive set you can still defend and enjoy that aspect of the game, it just is harder to be succesful.

At the same time i think that quite a lot of ppl dont wanna take part in the communicative aspect, maybe because they dont know about its enjoyment or benefit - or whatever reason. Personally i have some rl friends(played r3-r9.5) that quit playing PA, because they had to be on irc and all that stuff.
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Unread 8 Mar 2016, 08:38   #36
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I kind of see what you are saying but I think Tia's point is valid.

Last rounds stats were slightly defensive and yet no other alliance was able to generate effective defence to counter incommings. Now people are calling for stats that reduce that ability to defend even further.
I don't think you do see it. The stats are universal. If they hurt one alliance's ability to defend, it hurts all alliances' ability to defend, and equally. With ST stats, Ultores will be worse defensively than they are with MT stats, just like Conspiracy will be worse with ST stats than with MT stats. What I'm arguing against is the notion that an alliance like Conspiracy will be more worse with ST stats than Ultores. I just don't think that follows.

If people are proposing ST stats with the intention to hurt Ultores, they're not going to achieve their goals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I genuinely refuse to believe that anyone also enjoys playing in an environment where you cannot hold your roids under the smallest amount of adversity, it's just not fun to have a smaller fleet, less roids and watch all your gains from landing wiped out every time you get above a certain threshold. Yet again this is the environment you are asking for....
I'm not sure if this is aimed at me, but I'm intentionally staying away from the pro-ST or anti-ST debate. I'm merely pointing out the flaws I see in one part of the discussion.
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Unread 8 Mar 2016, 08:59   #37
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I don't think you do see it. The stats are universal. If they hurt one alliance's ability to defend, it hurts all alliances' ability to defend, and equally. With ST stats, Ultores will be worse defensively than they are with MT stats, just like Conspiracy will be worse with ST stats than with MT stats. What I'm arguing against is the notion that an alliance like Conspiracy will be more worse with ST stats than Ultores. I just don't think that follows.

If people are proposing ST stats with the intention to hurt Ultores, they're not going to achieve their goals.
Then I guess we will disagree, I believe the difference the way you build fleets between ST and MT stats hampers the less organised defensively alliances. People in these alliances have to dilute their builds into more ships because they cannot rely on defence from others meaning that overall they have their defence ships spread thin over more members. For example they will all have 5k anti cr and 5k anti bs for a bit of self def and to stop getting podded. The alliances that cab rely on defenders however will be happier to leave gaps as they know they will get covered (or at least have a far higher chance of getting it) this ends up meaning that ppl will build 10k anti cr and no anti be and another member will build vice versa. This allows them to expend less fleets to cover incs whilst still having a higher responsive def pool.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mz
I'm not sure if this is aimed at me, but I'm intentionally staying away from the pro-ST or anti-ST debate. I'm merely pointing out the flaws I see in one part of the discussion.
It wasn't, it was general statement aimed at those that can't see past the rose tinted specs they wear
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Unread 8 Mar 2016, 09:06   #38
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Jesus christ.. kaiba put a jumper on and pull it down to cover your boner for ultores. Every bloody thread returns to the same circle jerk.
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Unread 8 Mar 2016, 09:13   #39
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
I dont overly disagree with you here. Yes Defence is where the real game is and only if you manage that part you can win.
But the universe is (sadly only) consisting of 700 planets, out of which only 1 will actually win and another 29 to make the superb top30. What about the other 670 players (i assume every planet is 1 player )

Don't you think it should be about what keeps them playing ?

And thats where i disagree with you, i dont think the majority of those guys enjoy the defensive aspect over the offensive. Though some for sure do.
Also in an offensive set you can still defend and enjoy that aspect of the game, it just is harder to be succesful.

At the same time i think that quite a lot of ppl dont wanna take part in the communicative aspect, maybe because they dont know about its enjoyment or benefit - or whatever reason. Personally i have some rl friends(played r3-r9.5) that quit playing PA, because they had to be on irc and all that stuff.
Oh ofc you will get the odd player who doesn't like the social aspect, that's a given we are a diverse bunch after all. It doesn't mean though that you shouldn't be trying to incorporate them into the team aspect rho, even if it fails.

I also believe that it's not about whether they enjoy the defensive aspect or not, it's more that a lot of them have never experienced it. Not to talk bad of them but a player who has played 30 rounds in HR may never experienced an properly active defensive environment. Maybe hasn't ever woken to see a def page full of white recalls and an irc channel full of chat about the crazy defence of the night before. If you haven't seen it then they cannot know if they would enjoy it or not. But that is something for alliances to promote and encourage, it's more finding the players to take defence by the scruff of the neck and make it happen. Good defence breeds good defence.
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Unread 8 Mar 2016, 09:18   #40
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

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Jesus christ.. kaiba put a jumper on and pull it down to cover your boner for ultores. Every bloody thread returns to the same circle jerk.
I actually have only mentioned them once in 4 posts and it was only in relation to stats compared to other alliances. I have mentioned CT more in that time so maybe I have a 'boner' for them.

What is the funniest is all my points elude to better ways to counter their effectiveness as a group. Why would I plot against someone I'm a fan of?.... oh yeah that's right you don't actually read the posts you just jump on a troll wagon and presume I'm flaming you
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Unread 8 Mar 2016, 10:49   #41
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

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I believe the difference the way you build fleets between ST and MT stats hampers the less organised defensively alliances. People in these alliances have to dilute their builds into more ships because they cannot rely on defence from others meaning that overall they have their defence ships spread thin over more members.
That's reasonable, however, there are other factors that make me uncertain whether a strategy that relies exclusively on exchanging defense would work out in practice.

First, defense fleets require a return journey whereas the home fleet does not, so all else being equal, it is twice as efficient to rely on your own ships than on those of others: 7--9 ticks staying home vs. (7--9) + 1 + (7--9) ticks defending. Additionally, you can make some use of your ships in the time between the attacker showing and landing. You could use it to fake attack with, or leech defense for a few ticks, or cover incomings on galmates with ships you need yourself, with time left to return home in time to fight your own incs (if they recall prematurely or do not do their research). Someone who has the fleet slot busy defending you cannot do any of these.

Second, if you get 3 waves of incomings, your own ships work against all 3 waves, but defense from others can only help against 1 wave at a time. Essentially, with a balanced fleet, you basically get a free defense fleet on every wave: your home fleet. If you have gaps (as opposed to mere weaknesses) in your defense, you give up that home team advantage, requiring more defense than you would if your fleet were balanced.

Third, if you rely exclusively or nearly-exclusively on defense to cover certain incs, attackers can send more waves than they otherwise could, because they don't have to worry about countering your own ships.

You make a good point, but I don't think it outweighs the 3 factors I listed above.
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Unread 8 Mar 2016, 11:32   #42
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
That's reasonable, however, there are other factors that make me uncertain whether a strategy that relies exclusively on exchanging defense would work out in practice.

First, defense fleets require a return journey whereas the home fleet does not, so all else being equal, it is twice as efficient to rely on your own ships than on those of others: 7--9 ticks staying home vs. (7--9) + 1 + (7--9) ticks defending. Additionally, you can make some use of your ships in the time between the attacker showing and landing. You could use it to fake attack with, or leech defense for a few ticks, or cover incomings on galmates with ships you need yourself, with time left to return home in time to fight your own incs (if they recall prematurely or do not do their research). Someone who has the fleet slot busy defending you cannot do any of these.

Second, if you get 3 waves of incomings, your own ships work against all 3 waves, but defense from others can only help against 1 wave at a time. Essentially, with a balanced fleet, you basically get a free defense fleet on every wave: your home fleet. If you have gaps (as opposed to mere weaknesses) in your defense, you give up that home team advantage, requiring more defense than you would if your fleet were balanced.

Third, if you rely exclusively or nearly-exclusively on defense to cover certain incs, attackers can send more waves than they otherwise could, because they don't have to worry about countering your own ships.

You make a good point, but I don't think it outweighs the 3 factors I listed above.
All valid factors at face value I agree. I think good defence can be a lot more complex tho.

Being able to fake bigger fleets, activity of galaxy defence and build of it, leaving gaps also gets you smaller incommings of what you are weak to.

Not always ofc but a lot of the time a greedy attack team will put more smaller waves against someone who has no def ship against rather than throwing all their eggs in 1 basket on one wave, although you get more waves the waves end up easier to cover than 1 giant fleet sucker.

A lot comes down to defence efficiency, if you can rely on your team to recall promotely when their not needed then your defensive turn around greatly improves. Also the less fleets used to cover a wave leads to more incs being covered. Plus if you are self covered vs one type (apart from an uber wave) then your fleet will always be free to help others.

This is the other alliances suffer, they use to many small fleets to cover incs draining the available defpool. It's all well that everyone has equal amounts of 2 ships but when you only have 1 slot free and it's taking 4 of you to cover a wave there is a lot of idle ships and not many available deffers very quickly. This compounded by low response to incs and is why they get roided hard on w2-4.
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Unread 9 Mar 2016, 18:56   #43
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

It's not very often I post on forums but I got to respond to this post I like the alternative set of stats, they look more offensive and there is scope to fake which should be in single target round. both stats are balanced however just think the alt set will be more fun to play that my main points.
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Unread 9 Mar 2016, 19:03   #44
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

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It's not very often I post on forums but I got to respond to this post I like the alternative set of stats, they look more offensive and there is scope to fake which should be in single target round. both stats are balanced however just think the alt set will be more fun to play that my main points.
I totally agree with the bro on this one.... can't beat an attack where you land for roids and the target thinks he is covered.
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Unread 10 Mar 2016, 14:44   #45
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

i do prefer this ST stats, my only point is, whats suposed to stop DE??
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Unread 10 Mar 2016, 15:26   #46
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Any feedback as to what stats set are the "bookies favourite"? I like jintoa's set but there are some tweaks I would like him to consider doing.
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Unread 10 Mar 2016, 16:44   #47
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Voted for the MT stats, always prefer MT over ST .

Can't we play with some old stats, from around round 20-30?
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Unread 11 Mar 2016, 05:22   #48
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

So jintao, has it been decided which path (set) we are going ?

Signups meant to open today, it would be nice to know which set will be used - even if that set isnt final.

Thx for clarifying in advance
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Unread 11 Mar 2016, 08:28   #49
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

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So jintao, has it been decided which path (set) we are going ?
Simple answer: Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
Signups meant to open today, it would be nice to know which set will be used - even if that set isnt final.
When signups open appoco will confirm which shipstats will be used and declare them final. He'll also announce bp sizes than.
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Unread 11 Mar 2016, 08:32   #50
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Re: R66 Stat opinions

Thumbs up
Thx
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