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Unread 28 Oct 2005, 18:18   #51
Dante Hicks
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Theres no sensible definition of 'more' and 'less' here where someone in an average job today makes 'less' than someone working in a factory 30 years ago.
You hint yourself that there is - looking at someone's wage today compared to someone's wage in previous years (adjusted for inflation).

People may have more "spending power" if you look at it in a very strange way (they can buy new things which they can't buy before) - but that's a pretty weird definition of "more" and would make every comparison over time completely meaningless. By your definition I am richer than (say) John D. Rockefeller because I can buy a HD TV and he couldn't - even though even in real terms he is vastly richer than I ever will be. But then again, he could probably buy things that I can't (that aren't made anymore or something) so I guess even that's not straight forward.
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I'd rather be fairly poor but with enough money to buy a computer
+ a house + electrciity + food, presumably.
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Unread 28 Oct 2005, 18:28   #52
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
would make every comparison over time completely meaningless.
Yeah, pretty much. You can meaningfully compare over short periods of time over which things are relatively stable, but once youre go too far it becomes a bit pointless. I think the idea of this kind of time-comparasion is motivated by the desire to see wealth as being relative rather than absolute (the same thing which lurks behind the 'rich getting richer while the poor get poorer' nonsense where a growth in the income gap is taken to be a bad thing even when everyone is getting richer).

Quote:
By your definition I am richer than (say) John D. Rockefeller because I can buy a HD TV and he couldn't - even though even in real terms he is vastly richer than I ever will be.
What does 'real terms' mean? Perhaps you mean that he had more money than a higher percentage of people living at the same time than you do, but I dont see why thats relevant at all.

Also (and more related to Zhukov's original point) the increase in consumer goods probably plays a role in some people choosing to work longer hours than they used to. Lots of people want to own big screen TVs and ferraris, and will hence be prepared to work hard in order to get them. In previous times when the range of consumer goods was fairly limited compared to what we have today, this source of motivation would not be present.


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+ a house + electrciity + food, presumably.
Well if I didnt have any of that then I couldnt really be said to be able to afford a computer.
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Unread 28 Oct 2005, 18:33   #53
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I think the idea of this kind of time-comparasion is motivated by the desire to see wealth as being relative rather than absolute
Not really, it's just compensating for inflation. If we had 1000% inflation then it'd be stupid to say "Hey, I'm so much richer now I'm earning a hundred billion pounds a year!".

And an income gap is bad : it causes various problems (crime, social cohesion and even health) independent of the absolute levels of wealth in a given society.
Quote:
What does 'real terms' mean? Perhaps you mean that he had more money than a higher percentage of people living at the same time than you do, but I dont see why thats relevant at all.
Sorry I meant absolute terms. He was a multi millionaire, I am not.

But real terms in this context would mean his wealth adjusted by inflation.
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Unread 28 Oct 2005, 18:37   #54
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
When are changes preferable to the working class ever anything than an attempt to delay immenent acts of violence?
There is a few things I can think off, like the need to boost demand and to boost productivity by giving incentives.
But you are a pretty spot on.
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Unread 28 Oct 2005, 18:56   #55
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
And an income gap is bad : it causes various problems (crime, social cohesion and even health) independent of the absolute levels of wealth in a given society.
Not really, but it depends what you mean by 'cause' (how, in an individual case, does someone having less money than the average member of society cause him to commit crime or feel a 'lack of social cohesion'?). I do agree that there is often correlation though.

Quote:
Sorry I meant absolute terms. He was a multi millionaire, I am not.

But real terms in this context would mean his wealth adjusted by inflation.
But what is the worth of this definition? Sure, we can compensate for inflation and end up with 2 numbers, but how can you then go on to meaningful compare them when what they can actually buy is utterly different? Money has no intrinsic value (nor does anything) - its value to someone comes from the use to which they can put it. A contextfree number on paper has no significance.
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Unread 28 Oct 2005, 19:00   #56
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
There is a few things I can think off, like the need to boost demand and to boost productivity by giving incentives.
But you are a pretty spot on.
Right, before this gets out of hand (as seems likely) I am going to clarify my statement. By imminent acts of violence I am referring to class struggle and mass protest as well as potential violence.

Also, my comments were also aimed mainly (although not exclusivley) at events before the 20th century. My initial comment was too sweeping but not too far off the mark.

Finally I would like to make clear that I am not referring to anything that has helped the working class in a side-effect manner.


Zhukov, the things you have listed seem to me to fall under my last point. they seem to be the equivelant of the proletariat donkey being offered a carrot by the bourgoisie businessman for pulling his cart of products to market extra quick so he can make more money.

Im sorry (more than you'l ever know) for not being as clear as I should as been, I will try to avoid suchsweeping statements in the future.
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Unread 28 Oct 2005, 19:22   #57
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Not really, but it depends what you mean by 'cause'
Well these things are very difficult to test using a standard controlled experimental model. We can't raise two genetically identical twins in some sort of simulated environment and mess with their heads to find out what will have an affect. What we can do is analyse empirically trends in existing societies. Where that has taken place there has generally been a very strong correlation towards :
more economic inequality => more crime
more economic inequality => worse health, dramatically so for those at the lower end of the chain
more economic inequality => lower levels of "civic trust" / "social cohesion".

Looking at an individual case can be difficult. Does someone who is about to go out and rape someone really "know" their full motivation for doing so? Even a straight-forward economic crime (like robbery) is probably hazy on the part of the criminal - obviously (s)he wants their victims cash, but what is their justification? Why does that justification exist in their mind?

Even if someone said "Would you trust a stranger?" I'm not sure people could fully justify their reasoning, beyond a vague emotional feeling.
Quote:
Sure, we can compensate for inflation and end up with 2 numbers, but how can you then go on to meaningful compare them when what they can actually buy is utterly different?
These things are all rule of thumb. Zhukov said that wages, in real terms, were lower. Which could be true, depending on the factory. You may say that "Well, it doesn't matter because now we have lots of different stuff", which may also be true, but that's a different point to the one he was making.

And I wouldn't say things you can buy are _that_ different. Sure, you could say something like the internet, or a mobile phone is some sort of dramatic shift, but for a household a good proportion of their income (excluding debt repayments whicha are indirect) is still going to go on housing, heating / lighting, food, transport and taxes. That's why comparisons are still meaingful.

Money may not have any intristic value, but "real terms" comparisons still gives us some sort of clue as to how valuable certain things are. Let's say someone said that the Statue of LIberty cost $10,000 (in absolute dollar terms at the time). Is that a lot? I have no idea as to what ten g's would have got you in those days. So we make a relatively simplistic adjustment and say "In today's money that would be fifty million". Sure, that's not perfect, but it at least allows us to grasp approximately the cost of the enterprise. That's all - there's no relativistic plot here.
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Unread 28 Oct 2005, 19:41   #58
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Err...were you lot just lurking around waiting for someone to mention something that vaugely references political ideas and so on, just so you could have something to aruge over?
I bet you were.
You lurkers.
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Unread 28 Oct 2005, 23:56   #59
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Zhukov, the things you have listed seem to me to fall under my last point. they seem to be the equivelant of the proletariat donkey being offered a carrot by the bourgoisie businessman for pulling his cart of products to market extra quick so he can make more money.

Im sorry (more than you'l ever know) for not being as clear as I should as been, I will try to avoid suchsweeping statements in the future.
Hehe
We actually discussed this in my lecture today. We have a rather bright american professor, who's knowlegde about Marx is very good (even though he doesnt seem like a marxist). Im afraid dda, Texan & the rest of the right wing will now try to figure out who he is, and then report him to todays version of "The Commision on anti-american activity".

I'm sorry for my marxist ramblings, we like like easy things to be a bit difficult at times
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Unread 29 Oct 2005, 00:10   #60
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

How can you possibly put dda and texan in the same category?
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Unread 29 Oct 2005, 00:18   #61
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

right-winged americans?
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Unread 29 Oct 2005, 00:22   #62
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
right-winged americans?
It's like god is punching me in the face over and over.........
























...........and over and over and over....................








































...........seriously yahwe stop it
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Unread 29 Oct 2005, 15:25   #63
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
How can you possibly put dda and texan in the same category?
It's quite simple really. Just draw 2 boxes, now draw a line a little below the top of these boxes. In the left box at the top you put 'everyone else', in the right box you put 'dda and texan'.

Now write down the names of everyone belonging in the 2 categories.

Now if you'll excuse me while I go back to doing nothing usefull at all
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Unread 29 Oct 2005, 15:51   #64
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by flapjack
It's quite simple really. Just draw 2 boxes, now draw a line a little below the top of these boxes. In the left box at the top you put 'everyone else', in the right box you put 'dda and texan'.

Now write down the names of everyone belonging in the 2 categories.

Now if you'll excuse me while I go back to doing nothing usefull at all
Mark?
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Unread 29 Oct 2005, 15:59   #65
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Mark?
who? I know a few Marks, but I doubt the one you mean is Dutch
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Unread 29 Oct 2005, 16:02   #66
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by flapjack
who? I know a few Marks, but I doubt the one you mean is Dutch
It's quite alright, I was just checking.
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Unread 29 Oct 2005, 23:26   #67
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
what do you mean by absolute and relative wealth ?
he didn't mean anything you young fool

he just wanted to sound clever.

when has nodrog ever expressed an idea? (what is the sound of one hand clapping)

Less honest people than yourself want others to see them as something which they are not. If you study nodrog's posts you will find only criticism and poorly constructed sophistry. If a person expresses an opinion then that person opens themself up for attack.

nodrog is the equivalent of a GD 'camper'.
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Unread 29 Oct 2005, 23:28   #68
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
nodrog is the equivalent of a GD 'camper'.
oh, if only someone would grenade him.
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Unread 30 Oct 2005, 00:11   #69
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Re: Working in Hell, now with 10% more abuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
what do you mean by absolute and relative wealth ?
does absolute wealth mean that anyone who is capable of wealth, or at least capable of utilising it (all humans is what i'm getting at) has a combined wealth of 100% and that it simply changes percentage according too how many people there are and the current percentage distribution between these people ?
If that's what you mean by absolute wealth then why do you see "rich getting richer, poor getting pooer", as nonsense ? surely it's just the percentage of wealth for individuals changing.

Unless you mean that relative wealth has increased for everyone, meaning that spending power for certain goods/services changes. (of course this relativity would work both ways i.e. while we can afford computers which an ancient but rich monarch could not have, they would have been able to buy land that we cannot etc etc)
sorry i didn't read the other replys, possibly rendering this post useless (no shit jokes please GD)

Wealth can be created and destroyed. Wealth can also be redistributed. I'd agree with nod in that it's pretty difficult to effectively measure wealth. As regards your example sure the grand old king of shit country europe could buy/conquer lots of land but what the **** is he going to do with it? There are obviously essentials. People need clean water, enough food, effective shelter, education and healthcare to be available and the ability to access all of these easily enough. Beyond that it's all sort of hazy and irrelevant. Sure we all require money for entertainment but different people have different requirements in this area. Personally I don't need that much, I get by fairly comfortably most of the time. Some of us spend a lot more and still appear to need money on top of that. Remember guys even when you're taking about wealth money isn't the only thing you have to measure*!














*this means don't measure it. Measure something else instead.
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