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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 05:57   #101
isildurx
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Re: OMG , im CHEATING

Is the official MHs ever gonna comment on this issue?
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 06:01   #102
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Re: OMG , im CHEATING

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Is the official MHs ever gonna comment on this issue?
Probably not as they're hiding their incompetence behind the not gonna comment on cases clause.
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 09:01   #103
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Re: OMG , im CHEATING

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyne
I assume bintara isnt English. How can his diction be used against him?
Even if you're not English, you can make an effort.
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Unread 2 Jun 2007, 20:37   #104
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Re: OMG , im CHEATING

I am bintara's galmate and was really surprised to see him closed near the end of the round. I see that most here are in his favor and those who are not are simply saying his rudeness is good enough as an argument for closure. I find it incredibly ridiculous that he was closed for this reason.

If a customer (as bintara was also a paying customer in PA) walked into a McDonald's and started bitching about how his order was not correct, do they just throw them out? They would be losing a good portion of sales if that happened for every customer upset with an order. Likewise, I don't see how MH dealt with this issue properly at all. I do understand bintara and the MH team are humans and while bintara should not have been so quick to anger in the first place, MH should not have closed him out of spite.

Did bintara actually farm at all? No. Did he have the intent to farm? Maybe, but if you start basing everything on intent then that opens a big can of worms. He was messaging Kileman using 'diplomacy' like many have done already in similar but different fashions. The point is he never farmed.
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 20:14   #105
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Re: OMG , im CHEATING

If you guys think that was abusive then you all live in candy world with cotton elves and bees that go buzz!!. But i suspect those where not the full logs.

Did he send the same mail three times? If he did then that's so annoying

It was said he was summoned to multi hunter court because of abusive Language. I'm a little confused on how it turned into asteroid farming. Like if you didn't pay a parking ticket, ended up going to court and then where accused of murder of Catalyst..

Quote:
Originally Posted by rules
(2) Various punitive measures imply that the punishment is completely at the
discretion of the Admins, it can vary from small score/ship/asteroid losses
to full account closures depending on the situation.
Seeing as so many ppl feel closure was a bit over the top maybe another punishment was in order. Such as a lecture from wakey!
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 20:35   #106
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Re: OMG , im CHEATING

Quote:
Originally Posted by bintara
[22:04] <B|nTaRa> wtf did i do ?
[22:04] <+Ace> what do you think you did ?
So basically what you are saying is that Ace is a woman?
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 08:13   #107
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Re: OMG , im CHEATING

Quote:
Originally Posted by zokka
Seeing as so many ppl feel closure was a bit over the top maybe another punishment was in order. Such as a lecture from wakey!
I'm not sure if that's worse or not, but I imagine a query from Kila would still go deeper into the abyss.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 04:09   #108
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Re: OMG , im CHEATING

Official MH statement:
b|nTaRa was warned for his in game mail.
b|nTaRa came to #multihunters to discuss the warning.
During the course of the discussion b|nTaRa repeatedly admitted that he was trying to make an arrangement with kileman to allow b|nTaRa to land for xp and in return kileman could attack him to get the roids back. b|nTaRa also kept telling us that this was a valid tactic called diplomacy. Ace and I explained to him several times that this tactic is actually farming. Had b|nTaRa been bluffing, as some posters have claimed, I'm quite certain b|nTaRa would have said so. He did not. He maintained that he was trying to make an arrangement with kileman to land for xp and then kileman could come take the roids back.
b|nTaRa was then closed under the miscellaneous cheating rule which states that encouraging someone else to cheat is a breach of the EULA.
For those of you who think b|nTaRa was closed for his attitude, you are mistaken. I have dealt with people who have been far more rude than b|nTaRa was and they have managed to either stay open or change my mind. A couple of them have even posted in this thread.
For those of you who think that closure was excessive, feel free to come up with a different punishment for people who try to get others to cheat and come discuss it with me. You may find me in #multihunters.

Thank you

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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 04:53   #109
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Re: OMG , im CHEATING

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiery
During the course of the discussion b|nTaRa repeatedly admitted that he was trying to make an arrangement with kileman to allow b|nTaRa to land for xp and in return kileman could attack him to get the roids back. b|nTaRa also kept telling us that this was a valid tactic called diplomacy. Ace and I explained to him several times that this tactic is actually farming. Had b|nTaRa been bluffing, as some posters have claimed, I'm quite certain b|nTaRa would have said so. He did not. He maintained that he was trying to make an arrangement with kileman to land for xp and then kileman could come take the roids back.
To put the merry go around into a brief summary, B|ntara failed to fill the criteria #1 of how to get away with it, hence he got closed. Some other people doing similar rules violations managed to accomplish the criteria #1 or perhaps #3, and got away with it. Down to the subject, it's the same rules breach, just the different ability to handle the rules enforcement team.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 04:59   #110
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Re: OMG , im CHEATING

b|nTaRa is just pathetic, he'd probably be the kind of guy to send a letter to a lottery winner to ask for some cash... "pleazzzzze"
It was a clear (and dumb) attempt at XP farming. If he doesn't see it that way it's either because he's a complete retard or because he thinks MH team is... however because the farming didn't take place, I think a warning should have been enough.
I think there should be 2 new features on the portal:
- a Hall of Fame
- a Hall of Shame (clearly b|nTaRa's action would have its place there).
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 14:40   #111
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Re: OMG , im CHEATING

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiery
Official MH statement:
b|nTaRa was warned for his in game mail.
b|nTaRa came to #multihunters to discuss the warning.
During the course of the discussion b|nTaRa repeatedly admitted that he was trying to make an arrangement with kileman to allow b|nTaRa to land for xp and in return kileman could attack him to get the roids back. b|nTaRa also kept telling us that this was a valid tactic called diplomacy. Ace and I explained to him several times that this tactic is actually farming. Had b|nTaRa been bluffing, as some posters have claimed, I'm quite certain b|nTaRa would have said so. He did not. He maintained that he was trying to make an arrangement with kileman to land for xp and then kileman could come take the roids back.
b|nTaRa was then closed under the miscellaneous cheating rule which states that encouraging someone else to cheat is a breach of the EULA.
For those of you who think b|nTaRa was closed for his attitude, you are mistaken. I have dealt with people who have been far more rude than b|nTaRa was and they have managed to either stay open or change my mind. A couple of them have even posted in this thread.
For those of you who think that closure was excessive, feel free to come up with a different punishment for people who try to get others to cheat and come discuss it with me. You may find me in #multihunters.

Thank you

Fiery
Being punished by Fiery is something we should all want. But no, AHEM, be serious.

Ok, more seriously, Bintara was guilty of being very dumb. From the basic info floating around, The planet he mailed never agreed to his request. Further, he had the intention of killing his fleet were he ever to attempt to set foot there.

With only 2k-ish of players, perhaps the sensible view would be to watch bintara until he did farm. As you already had the e-mails in front of you, the call for him to attend #multihunters should have been for a dressing down (woohoo) and a bollacking, and being sent to bed with no dinner. I presume MHs have the full overview on players activity, and we know that broadly, you believe you know when cheating occurs, so the back and forth and talk of abuse has clouded the issue when it need not have done.

As for punishments, in case of lower order players, the PAteam have many options. You can cut XP, Score, Value, take away a players constructions, exile, wipe out fleets or ships, its not like you do not have scope to deal with minor and in this case stupid infractions.

For useless players like me, and lower order players who play for fun, they are more likely to learn by being penalised in some way. Obviously, in the case of seasoned or large players who are shooting for top spot, the effect of cheating to win is different from some numpty being dimwitted.

How would you handle this in a way thats non arbitrary?
Well, I would say you treat the top 200 more harshly than the next 200 and so on. If some dimwit in 3999th place does something stupid, then drag them into #multihunters and bollock them. They will go away and know that they are being watched.
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Unread 9 Jun 2007, 13:05   #112
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Re: OMG , im CHEATING

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
(...)
But fact is wakey that isnt a bluff. A bluff would be mailing my attacker telling him 'oh ive built ships for you to land on' thats a bluff, asking somone to send his fleet out is not a bluff. Its a request, which if kile had done so, would of got kile closed. And if kile had let him land, he would of most likely been reported anyway as farming for salvage to win the round. So he did the right thing in reporting it.
Do we have to read here that the MH teams are reading all mails sent in game?

If no one is reporting this situation, the problem would simply have not existed, on neither side.

Who hasn't ever landed a fleet on a much bigger planet who actually ran a fleet because they simply felt that losing many ships is a worse thing than allowing some roids to go? Would that be farming?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
(...)
So he was asking kileman to send his fleet out, allowing him to farm off him. Which would of course have gotten kileman closed.
(...)
Or... do we have to understand that everytime someone lands a good attack, the MH are looking at the mails between those two?

Who, if indeed Kileman would have chosen to run his fleet and let him land, for whatever reason (including maybe the wise reason to save ships), could be in a position to make any of them two closed?

Who, ever, has reported a landing in his gal or alliance, on behalf of someone else, suspecting a cheat? Do people do that? (if so they're really sad people)

So, when anybody decides to leave his planet empty so an attacker will land, it becomes farming? Then we have all been farming multiple times, without knowing in advance. And then I have to suppose that all of those cases had to be examined by the MH team to detect a cheat attempt.

I can't honestly say that Bintara used the right words to talk to the MH (from the posted logs), but sorry, this closure is ridiculous.

Firstly, it is ridiculous from Kileman to report that. It makes me think of pre-school fights. Why didn't he simply ignore the mail, and let his attacker do whatever he wanted, especially if that would be a crash? Why wouldn't he do nothing about it? Why did HE create the problem and got a player closed?

Secondly, as xontas said it, it would make sense to re-open him afterwards, because I can't honestly see any cheating in there. It didn't even happen, and it wouldn't have happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane
(...)
Even though the guy was quite rude to the MH team I think he was more shocked than genuinely trying to be an ass because he couldn't get his head around the rule. You gave him the warning but closing him now seems more out of spite, again as I said before, unless he tried it again or even took his behaviour further.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat
(...)
And really its only cheating if he actually landed. And then if that happened i think you would have to call it blinding stupidity on Kileman's side, rather than cheating by Bintara.
(...)
I totally agree. It is pushing it a bit too far, and I don't think this kind of extreme enforcing of the rules will make PA more popular. Again, it would have been cheating if it were arranged, and it wasn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
(...)
Kileman isnt closed becuase he simply to me told him he was just going to die if he landed on him.
(...)
Which makes my feeling that Kileman was a little sissy in this case even stronger. Again, why on earth did he care to report this?

I have, in the past, mailed some guy because he was defending against my own attack. It just happens that that defender was an online friend, and I wanted my attack to land. I just mailed him to say something like "Hey pal, could you let me land? Can't force you but I'd appreciate." Can anyone honestly say that this is cheat? It is just up to the guy to decide what he does, I don't see any problem there.

This case is about the same, except it's not involving a 3rd party:
- "Let me land",
- "No.",
- "Please I'd like the score and don't care of the roids",
- "No again."
Where is the problem??? I don't have any kind of interest in defending Bintara's opinion here, but I strongly believe that this "PA Police" is out of its role here. Multying and "proper" farming is one thing. Asking a favour is not, in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin/EULA
18.6. Miscellaneous cheating
(a) Attempts to encourage other planets to break the rules will be considered
a breach of this agreement
Is this clearly condemning "intent offence" indirectly? So, if someone says "hey if you let me farm you" and the other one refuses, it is still a cheat? The fact that he had the intention, or even rather an envy, to get loads of XP by trying to persuade the guy to go off, is in itself an offence?

Same thing if I went into a bank and asked the cashier "hey, can you let me have all those nice notes?" (without any form of threatening) and he told me "No". This is no offence. So what, if he calls the police, and the police questions me, and I say "He yes, I would have like to have them, but he didn't want to let me have them", will I be jailed? Bloody hell no, please be serious...

I reckon that if the guy did say "OK" then HE becomes an offender too (as long as I didn't threaten in any way, that is) by participating in a theft, but again in this case, Kileman said "sorry, no way you land on me". This in itself suffices to close the whole thing without any necessary closure, I think.

This rule is understandable in its intended purpose, as it is generally not good to cheat at anything, but this kind of exchange of mails between 2 players can't be considered cheating, or even an attempt of cheating. I know that farming is cheating, but...

If for instance:
- I'm attacking a planet with, say, my FR, because I notice it has no anti-FR, is that farming? No.
- The same planet has no ressources to buy any anti-FR. Is this farming? No.
- The planet HAS ressources, but don't spend them. Is it farming? No.
- Even if I mail to ask "He please don't buy defence", is that farming? No.
- If we agree first, prior to attacking, (on IRC or in mail) that he wouldn't buy defence (or in this precise case send it away), is it farming then? Then yes...

But basically, how is this "...(encouraging) other planets to break the rules will be considered a breach of this agreement"? Where is the encouraging? Are there any threats to do so? Is it any kind of pressure? And indeed, when he said that Kileman could even have the roids back, that is not an encouragement in itself either. There is no encouragement as there is no reward. It is simply a demand, that has not even been accepted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cura
B|nTaRa is a loser for begging people to let them land.
Ace is a loser for wasting his time with stuff like that (if you close him you can close half the pathetic universe).
Kileman is a loser for reporting.
(...)
Well, yes in a certain way.

Maybe the rule 18.6.a) should be rewritten, or even suppressed. People, all over PA universe, agree to landings & roidings, attacks & defence, etc.

Giving away coords of an easy target is invitation to farming then, and thus could be considered an infraction to 18.6.a). Everybody knows that there are inactive planets. Finding them & roiding them is not farming, it's gaming. Giving coords is encouraging farming. But everybody knows that this is a common practice, and I know of no one who has been closed for roiding an inactive planet after receiving coords from anyone.

In this case, what would have happened if Kileman wouldn't have answered (and reported) the first mail? Likely he would have recalled, and that was it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiery
(...)
For those of you who think that closure was excessive, feel free to come up with a different punishment for people who try to get others to cheat and come discuss it with me. You may find me in #multihunters.
(...)
Well, what kind of "other punishments" could there be? Re-opening would make sense, again, as this punishment is highly out of proportions with the "cheat" request. The only real punishment he would have had, is if Kileman had said "OK, land" and kept his anti-FR at base (even if that would have been particularly wicked... )

Just throwing ideas, but punishing this kind of "cheat" (encouraging another player to cheat) could be punished by... 3 days closure? Removal of all ships (or up to X value)? Removal of all roids? Resetting XP? Auto-exiling? I don't know, but many sanctions could be put in place, as said by AdmV0rl0n too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
(...)
For useless players like me, and lower order players who play for fun, they are more likely to learn by being penalised in some way. Obviously, in the case of seasoned or large players who are shooting for top spot, the effect of cheating to win is different from some numpty being dimwitted.

How would you handle this in a way thats non arbitrary?
Well, I would say you treat the top 200 more harshly than the next 200 and so on. If some dimwit in 3999th place does something stupid, then drag them into #multihunters and bollock them. They will go away and know that they are being watched.
Indeed. This doesn't mean that being a low scored player implies that you know less of the EULA, or the contrary, but the implications on the game itself have far less consequences.

I just though I'd post here, as I think it is highly unfair to have closed Bintara on this reported mail, even though I agree he could have easily defended his case more politely & in a more efficient way...

For those who have been patient enough to read all this, thank you for your time
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Unread 9 Jun 2007, 13:47   #113
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Re: OMG , im CHEATING

It's simple. He broke the rules. He got punished. End of story. I don't get what all the fuzz is about. The only inconsistency here is that someone else didn't get closed for a very similar offence, but you don't address that issue in your post.

(And no, I didn't read it, just skimmed it. Take my advice, and learn how to make your point in a concise and clear manner, rather than wasting a huge amount of time writing a lot of things that are ultimately irrelevant. That also goes out to AdmV0rl0n.)
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Unread 9 Jun 2007, 13:52   #114
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Re: OMG , im CHEATING

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
(...)
(And no, I didn't read it, just skimmed it. Take my advice, and learn how to make your point in a concise and clear manner, rather than wasting a huge amount of time writing a lot of things that are ultimately irrelevant. That also goes out to AdmV0rl0n.)
I was just explaining how the rule can simply not apply to the case, as it is likely not well written, allows many many cases of breaking it without any chance of being caught, and how the punishement is overevaluated.

What I do is reinforcing my points by putting them in context and comparing with examples. And I'm sorry if it had to be long. I don't even hope to make the MH's change their mind, as the round is over, but just stopping by & say "it's unfair" doesn't get anyone to change their mind: you have to give reasons & make them stand.

And it is not irrelevant. Simply you may not agree with me, but it is all relevant.
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Unread 9 Jun 2007, 20:05   #115
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Re: OMG , im CHEATING

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
It's simple. He broke the rules. He got punished. End of story. I don't get what all the fuzz is about. The only inconsistency here is that someone else didn't get closed for a very similar offence, but you don't address that issue in your post.

(And no, I didn't read it, just skimmed it. Take my advice, and learn how to make your point in a concise and clear manner, rather than wasting a huge amount of time writing a lot of things that are ultimately irrelevant. That also goes out to AdmV0rl0n.)
No, I'm not modifying my postings just to keep you from whining.
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Unread 9 Jun 2007, 20:09   #116
Mzyxptlk
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Alien Invasion Champion, Submarine Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Barts Watersports Adventure Champion
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: OMG , im CHEATING

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
No, I'm not modifying my postings just to keep you from whining.
If you think that's why I advised (keyword) you to change your posting style, you utterly, utterly missed the point.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 9 Jun 2007 at 20:14.
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 01:56   #117
Ferretus
ARS HQ
 
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 308
Ferretus has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Re: OMG , im CHEATING

I haven't read the full post so apologies if I am completely wrong on this, but it seems a little pathetic.

Bintara was in the wrong for making an arrangement, but if this was done on IRC he would have got away with it as likely many players too. I've been retired a long time so I know I am out of the loop and therefore my opinion doesn't mean much.
HOWEVER...the MH should have been more co-operative in the original IRC thread and answering questions with questions is just plain frustrating. Can we have a new rule that allows players to close PA team accounts for similar acts of unhelpfulness?
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Ferretus
ARS HQ (R2-R12), ToF (R13), Wolfpack (R13-14). Now happily retired from PA.
"Don't mistake lack of talent for genius"

Please bear in mind that much of what I say is intended to cause discussion. It may not reflect my personal favouritism or even have any involvement with my situation. In short bitching at me is pointless, so discuss the idea :-)
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