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27 Jul 2013, 21:03
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#51
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
Change Log: So I fixed some of the remaining targeting from the old stats, removed a few T2's so they accurately match the stats i wanted to upload.
Changes: Buccaneer T1->T2 ; T2->T1 to better allow for fighting vs De
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28 Jul 2013, 02:44
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#52
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Valle is my hero
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,581
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Re: Round 53 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by on99
Totally agree on that. Cat are often the first targets to be picked. Though xans sometimes are unlucky aswell. Anyways, if you are in one of the top alliances, you often manage to get enought defense to keep the roids Cat steal. In smaller alliances, you are just screwed being Cat, while they are very much needed in attacking teamups....
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Ofc Cat is first picked, emp is has no deterant to attackers. What it does provide tho is a good base to DC from. Bar another EMP attacker Cat outints everything that attacks it. So even if you have this kick ass fleet that smashes Co when you go against Cat some of your fleet is rendered useless, you never wage war against Cat at 100% power. Cat has the power to make a crappy def fleet enough to save its ass because it 'hugged' a decent enough percentage of the attackers.
Yes on99 you are right that if you are in a smaller alliance you might be screwed as a Cat but really it is your choice where you play and your choice how much defence you recieve through your efforts to DC yourself or get your galaxy active or even exile yourself into a decent galaxy rather than settling for semi active. We had a player in my galaxy who was in a 2 man alliance as a Cat. She finished around 120th in rank, which i think is pretty impressive, and that was down to her willingness to come online when she had incs to try and get defence and always offer ships to defend other in galaxy. This also meant that on the rare occassions she wasnt able to get her own defence that others were willing to DC for her because she had put the effort in beforehand.
I have played Cat 5 times in 15 rounds (4 Terran/6 Xan) and every time i have found it the easiest race to DC myself with and keep roids with. 9 times out of 10 it starts the round with a 3-4 ship build that targets every possible incomming before or equal to what that incomming attacks it. Other races have bigger holes, or more paper thin ships or worse ints (Etd has all 3). This is why Cat is used by defleeches and people going for the win. Because it is actually overpowered compared to other races, by design.
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28 Jul 2013, 02:51
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#53
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Valle is my hero
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,581
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Re: Round 53 stats
Still not seeing the need for the t3 on the investor Tia.
De targetting De doesnt feel right and im not sure why Etd is strong against itself when all the other races look weak against atleast one of their attack fleets.
There is already too many ships that are t1 against DE or have equal or better int to make it a viable attack setup. At most the Investor will be a cool nerfing def ship against Cr/Bs.
Care to explain the reason for it please?
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28 Jul 2013, 08:26
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#54
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
Because that massive 48%eff is huge!!!!! if a Etd decides to get investors over Broker(kill) or Thief(steal) then by all means but because etd cant t1 De they are really weak vs it period Ter De will walk ALL over them with out much issue.
Renamed Broker-> Tycoon.
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28 Jul 2013, 10:22
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#55
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Valle is my hero
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,581
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Re: Round 53 stats
It another ship that targets it and ints before it. It also makes Etds good against Terr Bs fakes. Etd now has 2 anti DE ships that target Terran De before it even shoots. This makes DE even less playable than it already was. I cant see why anyone would go DE with these stats still.
Im still not seeing past Xan still either. Both ETD/TER have non existant anti FI defence, the Wyvern is incrediby weak as a ship and ETD BS is only EMP against FR. Cat is obviously open against Xan and the Corsair is ridiculously weak for Zik. Xan FR can also attack into itself.
Are you planning anything to combat this or will we have a round that is heavily Xan again? Hopefully with the return of FOCKERS.
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28 Jul 2013, 11:52
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#56
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,386
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Re: Round 53 stats
a) Why is Tia doing stats? It means you'll all have to fort up.
b) Why is it limited MT?
c) I shan't play these stats. :-)
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28 Jul 2013, 12:39
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#57
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Valle is my hero
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,581
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Re: Round 53 stats
a) We are all asking that question still. It kind of makes you wish for PA not to return.
b) Limited MT is probably the best mix of stats currently. Full ST and full MT put off a lot of people from playing due to the inability to defend yourself (ST) and the stagnation and the ability to self cover (MT). This is the middle ground.
c) Yes you will. You just dont know what to play and will wait to be told what is the best setup.
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28 Jul 2013, 21:15
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#58
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
well the only thing ive seen is people flaming and not much, this is too good or this needs to,be fixed. im open to almost all forms of reasoning. but present your argument in the right way, with proof and facts(bcalcs).
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29 Jul 2013, 01:10
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#59
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Valle is my hero
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,581
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Re: Round 53 stats
Maybe it's because ppl are still playing havoc or can't be arsed to discuss a set of stats that might never be used.
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29 Jul 2013, 01:11
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#60
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,386
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Re: Round 53 stats
I'm sure your stats will be fine, Tia, I'm just not a fan of your previous set, as you allowed certain classes of ships to have free kills of other classes.
Last edited by Clouds; 29 Jul 2013 at 01:24.
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29 Jul 2013, 02:18
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#61
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
Well both you, Kai and Clouds seem to care enough to read a respond on forums so you could instead of making useless comments and just otherwise flaming, you could continue to play your little havoc and I will move on with-out you.
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29 Jul 2013, 05:13
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#62
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
Changes:
Xan:
Banshee T2 <-> T1 , A/c and D/c increased.
Ghost Dropped Co targeting
Phantom A/c D/c increased.
Zik:
Clipper Drop Co targeting
Bucc: A/C increased D/c Decreased and De T1
Etd:
Thief Dropped Co targeting
The goal of these changes was to not have fr Free fire on cat co, with out having Cat Co getting 4 ship targets.
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29 Jul 2013, 08:16
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#63
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
Few more changes:
Zik: Cutter Emp Res increased
Etd: Investor guns 9->8
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29 Jul 2013, 20:57
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#64
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 52
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Re: Round 53 stats
Fi - 1 (Xan)
Co - 1 (Cat)
Fr - 2 (Xan/Zik)
De - 2 (Ter/Etd)
Cr - 2 (Cat/Zik)
Bs - 2 (Ter/Etd)
Why would anyone want to go Cat Co? (Even if zik gets co pods it doesnt really help much)
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29 Jul 2013, 22:19
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#65
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
im not going to digify that with answer because if I make more fi co fleets the it unvalances the rest of the fleets
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29 Jul 2013, 23:31
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#66
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 36
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Re: Round 53 stats
i currently don't see an answer to cath/zik cr. dragon e/r is awful, tycoon not much better. only saving grace is investor has better init. maybe make it t1 cr and de can be ok defense at that point.
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30 Jul 2013, 04:44
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#67
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 957
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Re: Round 53 stats
ERes could use some more tweaking across the board, not just Bs. Tycoon wrecks Cr once it gets to fire, though.
I'd also like to see Cutlass's armor increased and damage decreased. It's fine in a Zik vs Xan match up, but the steal efficiency gets out of control once EMP is mixed in.
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30 Jul 2013, 04:52
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#68
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
Pat, can you list me a few ships that your intersted in seeing changed and by how much and ill look into it.
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30 Jul 2013, 07:08
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#69
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
Changes:
Zik:
Bucc Steal->norm init 5 retweaked a/c d/c to match change.
Roach:
Emp lowered
Xan:
Spectre emp lowered.
Etd:
Investor t3 removed.
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30 Jul 2013, 18:14
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#70
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
New set of changes to make Etd and Ter not so buddy buddy:
Cat Cr -> Cat Bs
Roach->scarab Fr T1 bs
Etd BS -> Etd Cr
adjusted pods and sk's to match accordingly. will have to rework emp since i moved classes around.
Zik:
Cutlass t1-> Co Dropped emp eff Increased Costs
some pretty big changes Gona leave these how they are for a while and see what people think and find out.
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Last edited by Tiamat101; 30 Jul 2013 at 18:40.
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30 Jul 2013, 19:06
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#71
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 36
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Re: Round 53 stats
no no no no no. please change cutlass back.
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30 Jul 2013, 21:40
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#72
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
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Re: Round 53 stats
No sk's on frigate class for etd, please.
Just another thing: zik with full kill attack fleet is a nonsense. Besides, only 2 fi's hit fr, being Pulsar the only threat to zik fr, which has decent D/c but really low A/c. Changing Clipper to steal init 19 would make no difference, besides zik able to steal fi, which would let Cutlass change to t1-> co only, as before.
If this change on Clipper is done, improve A/c D/c on Clipper.
Last thing: Cutlass empres 0? even Banshee has empres 30 and it's co class and xan. For instance, Thief is stealer also and has empres 52. Change it to smoething meaningful.
Last edited by lince; 30 Jul 2013 at 22:04.
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31 Jul 2013, 04:02
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#73
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 957
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Re: Round 53 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by lince
Last thing: Cutlass empres 0? even Banshee has empres 30 and it's co class and xan. For instance, Thief is stealer also and has empres 52. Change it to smoething meaningful.
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ERes values alone don't mean a thing. Right now, the only EMP ship targeting Co is the Spider, and it has a 110% efficiency vs the Cutlass. If anything, every other Co needs their ERes dropped.
Not entirely sure about ships stealing their own class (at least t1), but I don't see any huge issues with it at the moment.
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31 Jul 2013, 04:53
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#74
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Round 53 stats
I always work with an E/C column, which shows how many resources each EMP gun freezes. For example, a Pulsar with 0 ERes that cost 400 resources has an E/C of 400 * (1 - 0/100) = 400 * 1 = 400 resources/gun, while a Harpy with 60 ERes that costs 1000 resources also has an E/C of 1000 * (1 - 60/100) = 1000 * 0.4 = 400 resources/gun.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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31 Jul 2013, 05:14
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#75
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
I wanted the cutlass to have balls low E/R so that its not just an auto win vs cat co in the round. If ziks were to poor alot of value into Co then so be it they will be able to stop cat co's pretty much solo, but that will only be a few planets out of the 600 that play every round.
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31 Jul 2013, 10:07
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#76
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
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Re: Round 53 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc
ERes values alone don't mean a thing.
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True. But when you have same class teamups, it does. As it is, at the moment, cutlass simply flaks the other ships.
An example: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=0pl0mxllxu6f08p
Meaning, the only zik ship that can target co gets fully emped, while the other races Co ships shoot nowhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc
Right now, the only EMP ship targeting Co is the Spider, and it has a 110% efficiency vs the Cutlass. If anything, every other Co needs their ERes dropped.
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Lowering it won't solve the question. You can't lower anything below 0. You would need to change resource costs on all the co. Then things will be completely unbalanced and you would need to redo damage and resource costs on the other ships targetting co, to balance it.
For instance, Beetle has high empeff but has init disadvantage vs spider. To lower Beetle empres while keeping efficiency, you would need to change guns or resource cost. Else, viper gets free kills on the cath co attack fleets.
It would be much easier to just improve empres on the Cutlass than to change resource costs on all of the co.
Last edited by lince; 31 Jul 2013 at 10:34.
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31 Jul 2013, 10:13
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#77
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
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Re: Round 53 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
I wanted the cutlass to have balls low E/R so that its not just an auto win vs cat co in the round. If ziks were to poor alot of value into Co then so be it they will be able to stop cat co's pretty much solo, but that will only be a few planets out of the 600 that play every round.
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True. But Cutlass is a defense ship, which ziks won't build much. Unless ziks try to get a co attack fleet, but that's another issue.
As it is at the moment, it's just empfodder.
Last edited by lince; 31 Jul 2013 at 11:24.
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31 Jul 2013, 13:44
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#78
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 52
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Re: Round 53 stats
Still don't see how people will play Cat co with no teamup and 7 ships that target Co.....
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31 Jul 2013, 14:24
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#79
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Round 53 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by lince
Lowering it won't solve the question. You can't lower anything below 0. You would need to change resource costs on all the co. Then things will be completely unbalanced and you would need to redo damage and resource costs on the other ships targetting co, to balance it.
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Lowering a ship's ERes is the same as raising its cost, dmg and arm. Ship A with (an impossible) -20 ERes that costs 1000 resources, has 10 dmg and 10 arm is roughly equivalent to ship B with 0 ERes that costs 1200 resources, has 12 dmg and 12 arm. The only difference between those ships is that ship A is better at flakking.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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31 Jul 2013, 14:52
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#80
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
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Re: Round 53 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Lowering a ship's ERes is the same as raising its cost, dmg and arm. " ... " The only difference between those ships is that ship A is better at flakking.
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Don't want to waste too much time discussing formula.
Check bcalc: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=8x4056e2lxqelxp
1k phoenix (~4k value) can't get fully frozen by 20k spider (78k value) when they are flaked by 10k cutlass (36k value), while the 10k cutlass get fully frozen.
It just means, cutlass (T1 CO) can't even fire on cath CO (only cutlass target). And lowering empres on CO, as Patrick suggested, will affect beetle.
Ok, spider efficiency is 110% vs cutlass, not that great, but it's just 69% vs beetle and it should just stay like that. Why lower beetle empres?
It will open fighter defense even more, due to init disadvantage over Spider, meaning cath can self-cover more easily vs CO with just Spider and a small amount of Viper.
Solving an issue (spider efficiency) by just changing what shouldn't be changed (lower empres on CO) to equal what's wrong (low empres on cutlass) it's bad.
Last edited by lince; 31 Jul 2013 at 15:13.
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31 Jul 2013, 15:08
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#81
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Round 53 stats
I made no statements about how well or badly these stats are balanced, nor about how they should or could be improved, so I'm not sure why you're responding as if I did.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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31 Jul 2013, 17:27
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#82
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 957
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Re: Round 53 stats
I think you're missing my point, lince, which is that Cutlass's ERes is not low. Spider's efficiency vs the other Co (specifically, Mosquito) is only 62%, which is horrible for EMP.
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31 Jul 2013, 19:39
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#83
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Valle is my hero
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,581
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Re: Round 53 stats
Is anyone actually going to bother playing CO with these stats?? These are Tia stats, they aimed towards fr/de/cr/bs fort play. Like always, i can tell from that OTT Etd Emp ship that Tia will be playing ETD already.
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31 Jul 2013, 20:06
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#84
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
Actually Kia I'm going to either be zik or xan what ever my ally lets me play.
And I'm open to suggestions as to what you want to see other than 2 more fi/co fleets.
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31 Jul 2013, 20:23
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#85
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
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Re: Round 53 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc
I think you're missing my point, lince, which is that Cutlass's ERes is not low. Spider's efficiency vs the other Co (specifically, Mosquito) is only 62%, which is horrible for EMP.
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I'm not, really.
I'm fine with lowering empres for other CO's. As long as beetle init is set to 2, same as spider.
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31 Jul 2013, 20:25
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#86
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
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Re: Round 53 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
Actually Kia I'm going to either be zik or xan what ever my ally lets me play.
And I'm open to suggestions as to what you want to see other than 2 more fi/co fleets.
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Not needed more fi/co fleets, in my opinion.
As soon as Etd and Zik happen to steal fi/co pods, that will change. Just a guess though.
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31 Jul 2013, 21:03
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#87
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Valle is my hero
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,581
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Re: Round 53 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
Actually Kia I'm going to either be zik or xan what ever my ally lets me play.
And I'm open to suggestions as to what you want to see other than 2 more fi/co fleets.
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1 more fi/co fleet. Either etd or zik should have a sufficient fi or co fleet that relays on them stealing pods only, they should not have to steal another co/fi ship to be playable
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31 Jul 2013, 23:16
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#88
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
Both Etd and Zik are playable as they are regardless of what steals they do or dont get.
As For Lowing emp effs.... I might just lower all but the beetle leave it at 60% and put the rest of the co at ~~ 70-90% ofc leaving cutlass where it is. But I want the option to be there so that fi/co can roid into cath late in the round if they needed to.
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1 Aug 2013, 12:58
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#89
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 36
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Re: Round 53 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba
1 more fi/co fleet. Either etd or zik should have a sufficient fi or co fleet that relays on them stealing pods only, they should not have to steal another co/fi ship to be playable
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surprisingly like this idea. what about merging predator and thief? give thief init 19, and t1 de t2 fi. that way it has a chance at self sustained lands and also gives etd the much needed ship of ally eta anti fico.
to fill the hole, im thinking another de ship with t1 cr steal and dropping investor t2. this gives etd the chance to get a really solid cr fleet late game while still weakening their de teamup.
Last edited by Magnus; 1 Aug 2013 at 12:59.
Reason: typo
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1 Aug 2013, 14:57
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#90
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 957
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Re: Round 53 stats
How exactly would it be 'self sustained' if every other race had a killship that shoots before it does?
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1 Aug 2013, 15:42
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#91
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 36
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Re: Round 53 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc
How exactly would it be 'self sustained' if every other race had a killship that shoots before it does?
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maybe self sustained was the wrong term, but meant usable the same way zik fico fleets usually are, which is: very powerful when teamed with xan/cath.
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1 Aug 2013, 18:45
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#92
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 957
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Re: Round 53 stats
I think Etd with Fi pods has some nice options as it is, although it's pretty weak defensively (except vs bs/cr of course).
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1 Aug 2013, 20:56
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#93
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
id be open to changing thief to t2 fi steal but then id have to remodel predator
pred change?
class: de
t1 co
steal init 20{before thief)
drop co from gryphon
thoughts?
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2 Aug 2013, 00:17
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#94
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
Ok,
So i changed Etd Around a bit:
Thief: T2 Fi Init -> 21
Updated d/c a/c a bit on thief to compensate for the new change.
Predator : Class-> De T1: Co Init 20
Updated d/c and a/c to compesate and gave higher ER
Gryphon: Droped Co T1
D/c Dropped a bit because no longer needed to fire on co. Might consider upping the armor just a bit more.
Change was given to allow Etd to succesfully have ally def fleets so that alliances can safely go etd.
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2 Aug 2013, 22:27
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#95
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The Ant Knight
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 12
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Re: Round 53 stats
Do cutlass really not have any E/R? Or is that a typo on the ship stat sheets?
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2 Aug 2013, 22:29
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#96
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
it's all about cost ratios so yes cutlass cost requires the to have 0 er so it has the desired emp eff.
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3 Aug 2013, 19:54
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#97
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
Last changes and about 99% final the only thing from here on out will be e/r
Cath:
Locust added T2 Cr To better give cat co a 4ship build .
Cutlass d/c A/c fixed a bit to make it not so strong since it only fires on non-kill ships.
Tycoon D/C A/C dropped a bit as it was too strong E/R decreased a bit.
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4 Aug 2013, 00:56
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#98
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 36
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Re: Round 53 stats
interesting that you fight for 4 ship builds when xan is now the only race required to have 5 ships minimum and likely 6 by end of round.
consider this (though a bit of a wacky idea, ill admit): merge pulsar and phantom and keep xan fi pods. this gives fi a very interesting play style and likely the buff fico needs to be playable. also, if you make the t2 co, that class also becomes very playable.
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4 Aug 2013, 07:07
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#99
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Round 53 stats
Ter:
Phoenix d/c increased so it is atleast 100% vs xan fi after they fire
STATS ARE FINAL !!!!!! The only changes that will be made now will be by Appocomaster and are out of my hands.
I hope we can enjoy a round of some nice roidswaps and unforgetabble defwhores
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R50-55 Faceless
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8 Aug 2013, 02:33
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#100
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 157
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Re: Round 53 stats
Swap thief target to fi-de plz. Its outrageous not to
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