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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 20:26   #1
mist
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is thinking about children sexually wrong?

seriously. if you think about children sexually but do nothing about it, is that wrong?

obviously, actually going out and mollesting little kiddies is wrong. just as obviously, going out and murdering someone is probably a little off. however i think most of us have probably thought about it at some point (the murdering), and wouldn't think that was particualrly wrong.

so, if you think about something which would be unacceptable were you to act on it, is that in iteself unacceptable?

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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 20:29   #2
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

It is in the United States.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 20:30   #3
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

hell no

id be kind of 'out in the wilderness' morally if it were
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 20:37   #4
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

I see nothing wrong with just thinking about it. If people say for gay people that they can't help who they are sexually attracted to then surely you can just say the same in this situation.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 20:39   #5
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Without wishing to be difficult : Define "wrong".

Do you mean undesirable? Certainly (for the individual in question).

Morally wrong? No. So long as an individual can control themselves there is no problem with thinking whatever. There are no thought crimes.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 20:41   #6
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
There are no thought crimes.
That's what you think hippy!
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 20:43   #7
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Without wishing to be difficult : Define "wrong".

Do you mean undesirable? Certainly (for the individual in question).

Morally wrong? No. So long as an individual can control themselves there is no problem with thinking whatever. There are no thought crimes.
i meant morally

i'd have thought that wanting to sleep with anyone whom you couldn't, or shouldn't, would be undesirable...

-mist
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 20:46   #8
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
i'd have thought that wanting to sleep with anyone whom you couldn't, or shouldn't, would be undesirable...
Wanting to sleep with Elizabeth Hurley isn't an undesirable thing per se.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 20:51   #9
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

I think if you are an adult and you look at a child in a sexual way that is sick!
If you are caught looking at child porn you get arrested and go to jail so is looking at sexual pictures bad yes!!! So is thinking about it ffs these are children we are talking about INNOCENT they should only be looked at in such a way as innocent not sexually
(hides her daughter)
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 20:55   #10
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Wanting to sleep with Elizabeth Hurley isn't an undesirable thing per se.
what about wanting to murder her in an unspeakable fashion?
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 20:57   #11
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

I can see why non regular GDers would get worried about GD tbh.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 20:58   #12
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

GD has a sharp learning curve.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 21:00   #13
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by One_Darling
I think if you are an adult and you look at a child in a sexual way that is sick!
If you are caught looking at child porn you get arrested and go to jail so is looking at sexual pictures bad yes!!! So is thinking about it ffs these are children we are talking about INNOCENT they should only be looked at in such a way as innocent not sexually
(hides her daughter)
surely, there's a difference between thinking and doing?
or are you in favour of the thought police?

-mist
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 21:01   #14
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Current child porn laws are immoral imho.

Although hasn't the Supreme Court in the US said that simulated child porn is legal?
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 21:04   #15
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

mist

Seek help now!
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 21:07   #16
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by One_Darling
I think if you are an adult and you look at a child in a sexual way that is sick!
If you are caught looking at child porn you get arrested and go to jail so is looking at sexual pictures bad yes!!! So is thinking about it ffs these are children we are talking about INNOCENT they should only be looked at in such a way as innocent not sexually
(hides her daughter)
I think you'd better leave.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 21:14   #17
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Current child porn laws are immoral imho.

Although hasn't the Supreme Court in the US said that simulated child porn is legal?
whyso?

and you're not the first to mention it, so possibly

-mist
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 21:19   #18
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Although hasn't the Supreme Court in the US said that simulated child porn is legal?
Yes



Also
Quote:
"This morning the United States Supreme Court made our ability to prosecute those who produce and possess child pornography immeasurably more difficult," Ashcroft said.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 21:29   #19
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
whyso?
Because it punishes people for looking at pictures. I don't think that should be classified as criminal activity. I'm sure there are exceptions, but in general the only use of force (i.e. the law) should be in response to a use of force by another individual. Looking at child porn does not involve the use of force.

Making child porn obviously should remain illegal and I'd be happy for the death penalty to be applied if I was sure of guilt.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 21:29   #20
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

I don't see anything 'morally wrong' with being attracted to children. Acting upon it is different. I don't believe that people can control who they are sexually attracted to and therefore I cannot condemn someone for being attracted to another person regardless of their age, race, gender or any other factor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by One_Darling
I think if you are an adult and you look at a child in a sexual way that is sick!
If you are caught looking at child porn you get arrested and go to jail so is looking at sexual pictures bad yes!!! So is thinking about it ffs these are children we are talking about INNOCENT they should only be looked at in such a way as innocent not sexually
(hides her daughter)
I don't agree that everyone caught 'looking at child porn' should go to jail. Why is thinking about children so wrong? If you merely think but take absolutely no action then you are harming nobody. If you are sitting on a bus and you see a child you can look. You can think yes that child to me is sexually attractive. By these actions you are doing absolutely no harm to the child in question.

This also raises the point of what we consider to be a child. In the UK the legal age at which you can consent to have sex is 16. So therefore at the age of 15 you are considered a child but at 16 you are not? If a 25 yr old man sees a 2 girls walking along the street one of whom is 15 and the other 16 it is OK for him to find the 16 yr old attractive but he is 'sick' if he looks at the 15 yr old in a sexual manner????? That seems retarded to me. Does it make a difference if it is a 45 yr old instead of a 25yr old???
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 21:43   #21
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Because it punishes people for looking at pictures. I don't think that should be classified as criminal activity. I'm sure there are exceptions, but in general the only use of force (i.e. the law) should be in response to a use of force by another individual. Looking at child porn does not involve the use of force.
if looking at child porn encourages the production of child porn, does this affect your judgement?

-mist
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 21:52   #22
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
if looking at child porn encourages the production of child porn, does this affect your judgement?
Yes perhaps, although I'd need to see a strong case made. I'm very wary of having laws against things which merely "encourage" other crimes. If we could prove that wonderbras "encouraged" rapes, would we consider making them illegal (as a slightly silly example)?
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 22:02   #23
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

i think most people can make an intellegent choice as to the risks of rape associated with wonderbras, whereas children can hardly decide they don't want people looking at dodgy pictures of them

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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 22:07   #24
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

It's an extremely difficult subject. While I do not think people should be arrested for looking at pictures of kids I think child porn needs to be dealt with. However more effort needs to go in to catching those who are actually producing the porn rather than those using it. There seems to be an assumption that those who are sexually attracted to children automatically use 'porn' whereas they could easily just look at the childrens clothing section in Next Directory or Littlewoods or whatever :p
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 22:10   #25
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
they don't want people looking at dodgy pictures of them
That wasn't your question though - you purely related your question in terms of the effects child porn would have on child molestation in general. If you're saying that child porn is bad in and of itself (due to the damage of kids somehow "knowing" that someone is looking at pictures of them) then that's a different matter.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 22:20   #26
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Exclamation Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yes perhaps, although I'd need to see a strong case made. I'm very wary of having laws against things which merely "encourage" other crimes. If we could prove that wonderbras "encouraged" rapes, would we consider making them illegal (as a slightly silly example)?
Depending on your view on the 'age of consent' issue, the production of child porn is a crime in itself. That's hardly the case with the production of wonderbras, etc.

In my view, the overriding moral justification for banning child porn is the consent issue.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 22:26   #27
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yes perhaps, although I'd need to see a strong case made. I'm very wary of having laws against things which merely "encourage" other crimes. If we could prove that wonderbras "encouraged" rapes, would we consider making them illegal (as a slightly silly example)?
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 22:31   #28
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

And not one Dace reference thus far.

I'm proud of you all.

Of course, it is morally wrong, although if 'children' are to be defined as anyone under sixteen years of age, I'd expect everyone on the planet is guilty of that moral infringement - if everyone is guilty can it be morally wrong? Probably not.

I've no idea what I'm talking about.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 22:34   #29
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

I don't think that thinking about the idea of it is wrong.

I'm going to stick my neck out here and compare it to a guy having homosexual thoughts. I'm sure we have (at one point or another) considered our sexuality. Now most of us (including myself) have considered the idea, mulled it over (if only for a second or two), and decided that the idea of physically being with another a man is "not for us".

It's similar with kids. The thought of it may be interesting, but to actually ever go through with it is a completely different matter.

I read an interesting piece on this in LJ recently actually (on pedophilia, and the differences in certain pedophiles), but I can't find it now.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 22:34   #30
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
That wasn't your question though - you purely related your question in terms of the effects child porn would have on child molestation in general. If you're saying that child porn is bad in and of itself (due to the damage of kids somehow "knowing" that someone is looking at pictures of them) then that's a different matter.
sorry, i worded that baddly.

assuming for a second that wearing a wonderbra increases the risk of rape, and that 'paying' for child pornography increases the odds of it being made (the latter at least i believe to be reasonable).

someone makes a choice as to whether they wear a wonderbra, and therefore can make said choice on the basis of whether it's 'worth' wearing said bra or now
however the child involved in child pornography has no decision making power as to whether they wish others to see said pornography, and therefore no control over the risk of them being involved in making more which we're assuming is associated with it.

therefore, while a wonderbra may or may not encurage rape, the women makes a choice based on the risks, whereas the child makes no such choice. therefore i feel there's a substantial diference.

as to whether there is a link or not, i can see your point, although it seems reasonable to assume that if a pornographer of any kind makes some form of gain from sharing pictures they will be encouraged to share more. whether this gain is purely financial, or in terms of viewing pictures in return or whatever. tho, i suppose reasonable and factual don't always coencide

-mist
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 22:35   #31
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
I'm going to stick my neck out here and compare it to a guy having homosexual thoughts. I'm sure we have (at one point or another) considered our sexuality. Now most of us (including myself) have considered the idea
That's just sick and wrong you filthy horrid man.

Get the **** off my forums.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 22:43   #32
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
In my view, the overriding moral justification for banning child porn is the consent issue.
The production should be banned, no question, as I've already indicated. But I'm not sure there's any benefit to prosecuting people who simply to look at it.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 22:49   #33
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

here's a point. Is the having of child porn, a means for release for otherwise paedophiles?

Case in point, the "schizophrenic" (don't get me started on that diagnosis...) who had a large collection of gun magazines but no weapons (and innocent pictures of kids, framed). It was thought he was obsessing over them by his community mental health team, the magazines were removed... So he bought an actual gun illegally.

Then he killed a lot of kids with it. It was only later they found out that he was using the magazines to construct elaborate fantasies. Once this form of release was taken away he had to seek another...
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 22:50   #34
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
as to whether there is a link or not, i can see your point, although it seems reasonable to assume that if a pornographer of any kind makes some form of gain from sharing pictures they will be encouraged to share more.
Possibly, but we're trying to stop people molesting children. The making of child porn is just an unpleasant side effect of a disgusting act. The issue is whether more child porn leads to more child molestation I suppose.

Imagine there was a fetish of people who got off on watching security tapes from bank robberies. Would we want to ban people from watching them? We'd want to stop the bank robberies itself, but what of the trade of tapes?
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 22:52   #35
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

depends if said fetish lead to the committing of more bank robberies

-mist
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 22:56   #36
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
depends if said fetish lead to the committing of more bank robberies

-mist
Fair enough, that's consistent.

What if people watched other, unrelated films (say, violent movies) and we could prove this increased bank robberies (and other violent crimes). Would you want said movies banned?
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 23:23   #37
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Fair enough, that's consistent.

What if people watched other, unrelated films (say, violent movies) and we could prove this increased bank robberies (and other violent crimes). Would you want said movies banned?
if there were a direct link between the two, then i think it'd be something to consider - obviously you need to look at the merits and pitfals of a situation and things are rarely as simple as your example depicts. however, i'm more convinced of a link between child pornography and child abuse than i am (or not at all, but that's an asside) of the link between violent movies and bank robberies

-mist
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 23:38   #38
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

to be honest id think its morally wrong to even look at it. To give it a slightly more personal view: im a sadist. But i dont think i would watch a video of someone actually being tortured against their will (although in many ways i would like to) just because i would feel it was morally wrong. If i can have the same kind of restraint, why cant paedophiles? Any child porn which is viewed will probably have involved physical or mental harm to a child in the making, and therefore those who watch it are involved in the harm of the child in my opinion. I dont think theres any doubt that the watching and paying for of child porn encourages more either.

But to get to the actual thread, i see no problem whatsoever with thinking about it, or simulated child porn. Like someone else has said, it may actually stop them from offending and harming children in the real world.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 23:39   #39
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

There might be a danger of legalised child porn creating a market that needed to be fulfilled, but that kind of assumes that we're all closet rapists who are just waiting to pounce on kids ie that the only thing holding us back is the law, which i just don't think is true, despite the large amount of men who find young(er) women attractive there isn't a mass of men in they're 20s/30s/40s who specifically try and find 16yr olds, ie those just legal, they may prefer women younger then themselves but not kids*.

I also don't think that seeing child porn would necessarily increase the amount of child abuse in the general population, those horrific beheading videos have become widely watched on the internet** but i don't see people who wouldn't be otherwise inclined to behead others, doing so.

The problem i do have is that (non consensual) abuse has taken place and i don't feel at all comfortable in viewing that, i haven't watched a single beheading video for that very reason, i very nearly did but (and this did surprise me) i just didn't have what it took despite curiosity, to watch one human torturing another.

To me its not a question of increasing abuse as i feel those inclined to do so would anyway (the people cannot handle freedom they must be protected from themselves by the state!) but of making it ok to watch someone suffer at the hands of another.


*to me most 16 yr olds are kids and i detest children

**its interesting that when 'snuff' videos weren't easily available like only 2 years ago i used to get a greater feeling of want from people to watch them.
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Unread 26 Nov 2004, 23:41   #40
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

d'oh the thread was about thinking about it

if thought crimes existed id be in for genocide
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Unread 27 Nov 2004, 07:58   #41
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Without wishing to be difficult : Define "wrong".

Do you mean undesirable? Certainly (for the individual in question).

Morally wrong? No. So long as an individual can control themselves there is no problem with thinking whatever. There are no thought crimes.
I disagree.
There may be no thought 'crimes', but morality is different to the legal system. Legally, of course, you cannot be prosecuted for wanting to kill someone. However, a 'crime' implies some action fulfilled, but surely to be in the wrong (in the moral sense), you need not have actually committed the crime? To have wanted to commit the crime cannot be morally justified - if a perfect being existed it would never consider doing wrong.

PS. I found my arguement becoming a frayed at the edges, so I googled ('morality of thought') for clarification. This is basically an expanded version of what I tried to say.
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Unread 27 Nov 2004, 08:04   #42
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yes perhaps, although I'd need to see a strong case made. I'm very wary of having laws against things which merely "encourage" other crimes. If we could prove that wonderbras "encouraged" rapes, would we consider making them illegal (as a slightly silly example)?

I don't think your analogy is really a good one. The production of child porn imiges requires a crime to be commited in order to produce them., hence I feel that making looking at child porn images illegal is far more just (just as an aside, I thought the illegal thing was ownwership of the images, not merely looking at them)
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Unread 27 Nov 2004, 09:00   #43
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

yeah. so we are having a conversation about rather it is ok or not to see a 3 year old being brutally raped ... or even worse IMO, actually thinking about doing the act.

Good conversation... How the **** can you people pretend at all to have higher moral grounds than Americans. I dont believe it.
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Unread 27 Nov 2004, 09:35   #44
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

im amazed that this thread has actually turned into a decent conversation on broader morality.

and QDS, look, over there, its a politics thread! why are you even here?
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Unread 27 Nov 2004, 13:43   #45
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Legally, of course, you cannot be prosecuted for wanting to kill someone.
Yes you can.
If you seriously say you're going to kill someone and people think you will, then you get prosecuted.
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Unread 27 Nov 2004, 13:56   #46
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

If you walked around shouting 'i'm going to do blablabla to a kid' then you'd probably get charged with a public order offence but nothing more without evidence of intent to carry out that crime.

Would probably be the same with saying you are going to kill someone except people would be more likely to ignore you.
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Unread 27 Nov 2004, 14:17   #47
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
yeah. so we are having a conversation about rather it is ok or not to see a 3 year old being brutally raped ... or even worse IMO, actually thinking about doing the act.

Good conversation... How the **** can you people pretend at all to have higher moral grounds than Americans. I dont believe it.
it's called logical consistency, and sometimes it can be a tricky task to make sure what you say is not completely arbitrary.

my personal view on it, is that if it remains in the mind, I have no problem, biut as soon as an act is commited, be it looking at child porn through to raping and killing a child, these things should all be illegal. With the exception of virtual-child-porn, which is unsavoury, but in which nobody has been harmed, viewing any of these images requires a crime to be commited in order to supply them, and hence should be illegal too.
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Unread 27 Nov 2004, 14:22   #48
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
raping and killing a child should all be illegal.
I don't think many people would b disagreeing with you there.
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Unread 27 Nov 2004, 14:24   #49
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

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I don't think many people would b disagreeing with you there.
forgive me if this sounds aggressive, but taken in context, what I said makes more sense i.e. the whole spectrum of activities in which an act has been taken. I'd rather you didn't just quote mine me in order to make some bland and pointless statement.
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Unread 27 Nov 2004, 14:25   #50
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Re: is thinking about children sexually wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
yeah. so we are having a conversation about rather it is ok or not to see a 3 year old being brutally raped ... or even worse IMO, actually thinking about doing the act.

Good conversation... How the **** can you people pretend at all to have higher moral grounds than Americans. I dont believe it.
oh well, at least we have someone in the 'for' camp in the thoughtcrime argument...

(*sigh*)
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